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Substitute Standard Action as Full Action

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Anonymous
April 12, 2005 1:49:06 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

I have a player with the following dilemma.

We are playing D&D 3.5.

He has a ftr8/order of bow initiate 2.

When hasted, he wants to use his Ranged Precision ability to
fire a single shot with an additional d8 of damage. He is
arguing that he should get the additional attack provided by
haste. The books say that Range Precision is a Standard
action.

Haste states that to get the extra attack, a player needs to
use a full attack.

Can what is essentially a single attack be considered a full
attack if the pc only moves 5', or does the player have to
make multiple attacks?

What about a first level fighter? He can only make 1 attack,
so is he denied a full attack, and thusly, the benefit of haste?
Anonymous
April 12, 2005 5:05:25 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

decalod85 wrote:
>
> When hasted, he wants to use his Ranged Precision ability
> to fire a single shot with an additional d8 of damage.
> He is arguing that he should get the additional attack
> provided by haste. The books say that Range Precision is
> a Standard action.
>
> Haste states that to get the extra attack, a player needs
> to use a full attack.

These two factors answer your question.

> Can what is essentially a single attack be considered a
> full attack if the pc only moves 5', or does the player
> have to make multiple attacks?

Doesn't matter. The only thing that is a full attack is the Full
Attack action (which is a Full Round Action), even if that only
includes one attack. A Standard Action cannot be combined with a Full
Round Action. A single attack is considered a full attack if the
character takes the Full Attack action.

> What about a first level fighter? He can only make 1
> attack, so is he denied a full attack, and thusly,
> the benefit of haste?

A Ftr1 is not denied a full attack. Two-weapon fighting allows him
multiple attacks in a Full Attack, as does /haste/.

So, summary: Precision Shot is a single-attack standard action that
does not benefit from /haste/. Any Full Attack, even one with only
one attack, does benefit from /haste/.

--
Nik
- remove vermin from email address to reply.
April 12, 2005 3:14:28 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"decalod85" <decalod85@comcast.net> wrote in message > When hasted, he wants
to use his Ranged Precision ability to
> fire a single shot with an additional d8 of damage. He is
> arguing that he should get the additional attack provided by
> haste. The books say that Range Precision is a Standard
> action.

We ran in to this last night as well. Except it gets really nasty with our
party's archer who also has multi-shot. One shot gives like like 10d8 damage
(plus additional d6s per arrow from the magic bow).

To save rehashing the old discussion, google the group to find the previous
thread.

Brian
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Anonymous
April 12, 2005 7:07:18 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Tue, 11 Apr 2005, decalod85 wrote:

> I have a player with the following dilemma.

<snip>

> Haste states that to get the extra attack, a player needs to
> use a full attack.
>
> Can what is essentially a single attack be considered a full
> attack if the pc only moves 5', or does the player have to
> make multiple attacks?

A full attack action can be one or more attacks, and takes a full round
action. An attack action must be one attack, and takes a standard action.
Ranged precision specifically requires a standard action, so the archer
gets only one such attack a round even when hasted.

A 1st level fighter has one attack a round, but can take a standard action
or a full round action to make that attack. If they take a full round
action, they can move 5ft and they get a second attack while hasted. If
they take a standard action, they can move up to their speed but don't get
a second attack while hasted.

In all these cases, it's the type of action that matters, not that the
character is making an attack.

Hope this helps,

Gary Johnson
--
Home Page: http://www.uq.net.au/~zzjohnsg
X-Men Campaign Resources: http://members.optusnet.com.au/xmen_campaign
Fantasy Campaign Setting: http://www.uq.net.au/~zzjohnsg/selentia.htm
Anonymous
April 13, 2005 12:20:29 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

decalod85 wrote:
> When hasted, [an Order of the Bow Initiate] wants to use his Ranged
> Precision ability to fire a single shot with an additional d8 of
> damage. He is arguing that he should get the additional attack
> provided by haste. The books say that Range Precision is a Standard
> action.

Nik Landauer's followup answers your question pretty well. I have just
one thing to add: When a special attack requires a standard action
instead of an attack action, the whole /point/ is to forbid using it in
a full attack. Using /haste/ to get extra special attacks breaks both
the letter and the spirit of the rule.
--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd
April 13, 2005 1:35:35 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Bradd W. Szonye" <bradd+news@szonye.com> wrote
> When a special attack requires a standard action
> instead of an attack action, the whole /point/ is to forbid using it in
> a full attack.

"Making an attack IS a standard action" (SRD, empahsis mine). So being as a
full action is longer than a standard action, under the influence of haste
wouldn't you still have time in the round to make an additional swing of the
weapon? Or for that matter a ranger with rapid shot should still have time
to make that additional shot.

Brian
Anonymous
April 13, 2005 9:22:20 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Bradd W. Szonye wrote:
>> When a special attack requires a standard action instead of an attack
>> action, the whole /point/ is to forbid using it in a full attack.

Brian wrote:
> "Making an attack IS a standard action" (SRD, empahsis mine).

Yes, an attack action is a standard action. The text following that
quotation explains what that means: a single melee attack, unarmed
attack, or ranged attack. It does not include other kinds of attacks,
such as spell attacks (which use the "cast a spell" action) or special
attacks (which use the "use special ability" action).

You can use the attack action to perform some special attacks, but only
when the special attack states that you can perform it as a melee
attack, unarmed attack, or ranged attack. For example, the disarm
special attack explicitly states that you can disarm "as a melee
attack."

> So being as a full action is longer than a standard action, under the
> influence of haste wouldn't you still have time in the round to make
> an additional swing of the weapon?

No, full-round actions are not merely longer versions of the standard
actions; it's a separate list. Furthermore, the /haste/ spell does not
give you an extra attack with any full-round action. You only get the
extra attack when "making a full attack action." That action lets you
make multiple melee attacks, unarmed attacks, or ranged attacks. It does
not, however, let you combine the spellcasting or special ability
actions with those attacks.

You can use a full attack action to disarm an opponent, because disarm
is a melee attack. You cannot use a full attack action to make special
attacks like bull rushes, however. Again, that's the whole point of
making them standard actions rather than attack actions.
--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd
!