Frightened new buyer looking for help

[Guest]

Newbie to the boards looking for some aid. I'm an old Pentium buyer managing a new system every 2-3 years (P75, P2-166, P2-400) and am looking to get a kit right now (case, motherboard, processor, memory, and maybe hard drive).

I've been checking prices locally and at Pricewatch.com for Pentium 4's, which I assume would be the next logical step. However, now, just before I am ready to buy I am seeing lots of positive praise for the AMD. Back when I last had a choice you didn't even think about AMD, that was like getting a Voodoo 5 instead of a Geforce, you just didn't do that.

However, with strong praise from posters here like Matisaro are making me rethink my impressions of AMD. But it's like telling me my dad, Pentium, isn't a superhero after all.

Here is the current quote that I am close to going with from a local store taken right from the email they sent me:

Intel P4 1.5 $166.50
Intel P4 1.7 $237.60
DFI P4 Motherboard $137.50
Enlight Med ATX Case $69.00
RD RAM 512/1G $214/429

So with all that background out of the way (sorry if I'm long winded) I have some questions about using an AMD:

1) Is it compatible with major software? Major games? Or am I confusing AMD incompatability with Windows 2000 troubleshooting messages in the readme files.

2) I know nothing at all, and I mean NOTHING, about motherboards. What should I watch out for?

3) Is there a specific type of memory to focus on? Is there a big difference between PC2400 DDR and PC2100 DDR? Does DDR work with AMD?

That's all I can think of. My appologies if you are tired of answering newbie questions like this, I hope you do not get too many. I'm just really wary about using anything other than the tried and true Pentium, but some reasonable opinions are starting to sway me.

Oh, and I am eager to get something quite soon. So waiting until Q1 2002 and such is not quite feasable for me. I've been putting this off long enough.

Thanks,

Tom / Doc4

 

[Red_Zealot]

I would recommend getting an AMD when the XP comes out in a week. It works with DDR, no software issues. I recommend you research some of Toms reviews of Athlon mobos.

"If you teach a child to read, then he or her will be able to pass a literacy test" - George W.

 

[Kelledin]

1) It is compatible with major software. We've challenged Intel fanatics to come up with ten AMD incompatibilities, and they've only managed to cough up two. One was for Pro Tools, and we've generally got no definitive proof one way or the other. The other...hmmm...I can't remember exactly what the other one was.

2) You should watch out for VIA chipsets in particular, as well as crummy integrated hardware. VIA chipsets just tend to give people headaches in general. Right now, the local favorites (out of those motherboards released) are SiS735-based motherboards (for single-CPU setups) and AMD760MP-based motherboards (for dual-CPU setups). Upcoming favorites (at least one of mine) are nForce-based motherboards, even though none are released yet.

3) If you buy a Pentium IV, demand PC800 RDRAM. Anything else is a waste on that CPU.

If you buy an Athlon, you should generally go with PC2100 DDR RAM (preferably CAS2). You can go with PC133 SDRAM if you're on a budget; performance will be somewhat less but still good.

PC2400 is rated to somewhat higher speeds than PC2100, but there's no CPU specced to handle those higher speeds (yet). PC2400 is currently primarily for overclockers.

For an Athlon, be sure to get a sufficient HSF. DO NOT mis-install the HSF on an Athlon! You run the risk of the Athlon toasting itself if you mess that part up--a risk you don't face with the PIV.

---
As for pricing...here's a quote for parts assembled from PriceWatch:

Infineon PC2100 DDR 512MB/1GB CAS2: $99/$198 ($10.95 shipping)
AMD Athlon "C" 1.33GHz: $95 ($10.95 shipping)
ECS K7S5A (SiS735) motherboard: $62 ($12 shipping)
(You can probably use the same case, just make sure the power supply is AMD-approved)

Total: $358.90 (assuming 512MB RAM setup)

Compare that to $678.60 for the 1.7GHz 512MB P4 setup...you get a system that generally performs slightly better for less than half the cost.

Kelledin

"/join #hackerz. See the Web. DoS interesting people."

 

[mbetea]

kelledin, thanks for the heads-up on the ram. thought i could only find cas2.5 for $84. so i ordered up 2 512 sticks from that place you mentioned. i should be getting my k7s5a by wed. and a 1.4ghz tbird til the new palamino hit the scene. doc, i'll post how the system is when i get it up and running hopefully i'll be able to do it by the end of the week. just to let you know how it was. but i've really only heard good things about this motherboard, so that's why i'm going with it instead of waiting for via or nforce. and at $62+s/h it's a steal. it's a perfect board for me it seems. i'm not a big audio guy so i figuring whatever it's got onboard should be fine. and for the lan i've heard it runs good, long as transfer rates are good i don't have a problem. but it'll be my work comp so it won't be hooked up to the net, other than to do updates.

ewww, put that thing away, you're in public!

 

[Guest]

Some great replies already. Thank you very much.

I thought of another concern. 3 Years ago when I last bought a system the only systems I knew of with onboard items were the cheesy things used for the mass market PC crowd (best buy, etc). It appears as though today's motherboards all seem to have onboard items. Kelledin's suggestion of a ECS K7S5A has an ethernet card and sound onboard. Since I have a SB Awe 64, is there a way to disable the sound that comes with the motherboard? Will it get in the way? Is the onboard network inferior to my current network card? Is the sign of a good motherboard no longer that it is free of onboard "stuff"?

Tom / Doc4

 

[Guest]

I think a 1.33Ghz or 1.4Ghz Athlon in a ECS K7S5A mobo would be a good bet. Get PC2100 DDR SDRAM.

 

[Boondock_Saint]

Generally, onboard sound and ethernet are not as bad as made out to be. The thing you have to stay away from is integrated video.

Yes, you can disable the sound if you wish, and with no problems whatsoever, on every mainboard I know of. Onboard network cards are just as good as regular network cards; Let's face it, there's not much difference between any brand of network card.

Sometimes good motherboards will come with onboard stuff, and sometimes they don't. One of the best earlier motherboards for the Athlon was the Asus A7M266 (which I am currently using). It comes with onboard sound, that I am using until I can get an Audigy. Other boards though, will specifically come with no onboard items, and sometimes they are a good mark. Take the Abit KG-7 RAID, for instance. Nothing onboard really, yet one of best (or best) AMD-760 chipset board on the market.

 

[FUGGER]

Now that prices are so low that almost anyone can afford a decent machine at any price point, DO NOT comprimise and buy a AMD based system to save 10 bucks because its gonna come back and bite you in the ass very hard.

If you plan on actually using your computer and do not want to have to worry about serious issues tempetures, Incompatabilities (yes there are many incompatabilities out there even tho some lemmings claim and want you to believe otherwise), suck ass chimpsets, system crashes, hard lockups and so on. Dont believe me just read back a few pages of horror stories from people on the forum who have problems with AMD based machiens right now.

You can get a socket 478 motherboard and P4 chip for a decent price. I would suggest the new P4B motherboard with trick new features not found on any other board made today. like audible errors (female voice that warns you of misc problems NOT BEEP CODES "Hard drive not found" "Floppy drive not found" or whatever the problem is if any) the CPU cannot destroy itself and the socket it sits in like ALL AMD machines are protentally capabale of. let alone catching on fire destroying the whole machine (not just the CPU and motherboard) funny how a $10 part can fail and destroy your whole machine WTG AMD on that brilliant design.

People will claim that the motherboard will prevent such problem from happening but its not true and from the posts on this forum prove that (not including toms article)

Sure you can buy 4 80mm fans a super ultra-enhanced thermaltake deluxe with nito injected turbine impellerers operating at 120Db but dont forget to buy earplugs cause the noise level is soo high due to the amount of cooling required to meet your cooling needs.

Get a real P4 northwood since your time frame permits it. you will see huge increase in performance with 512k cache and other design enhancements.

Matisaro is one of the biggest lemmings on this board and doesnt know his mouth from his ass at times. If you made a claim that your machine can beat his at something (see my post in graphic card section where I claimed a score ~7500 in a benchmark and he was so bent on calling me a liar going the point of saying my screen shot was doctored, and after my scores were posted he still claimed I was a liar(sore loser)), he would call you a liar and rant and rave till the end of time too.

Go with RDRAM for best performance.

1) Intel CPU's are not known for self destruction in under 2 seconds flat.
2) Intel prices are in line for the quality of product you get.
3) everything is built to Intel specifications NOT AMD.
4) alot less agravation owning a Intel based machine.
5) Yes there are compatability issues with AMD based machines. (keledin can keep waiting cause I will not play his lame game)
6) AMD is not 100% Intel compatable and cannot claim to be 100% compatable. even 1 incompatability blows that 100% out the window. *cough* AVID media compser *cough* lucas arts *caugh*
7) most major manufactures like the company I work for will never use AMD products due to the poor design and thermal issues. why install a CPU that can destroy itself and the socket it sits in seconds let alone put your companies name on such a product?

 

[mbetea]

$10 in savings? hmm, that just shows that people that live and die by intel can't count and therefore always assume a larger number is better. if you took the time to actually look at others you would see kelledin's quotes for an amd and a p4 system. umm and the difference is $320. that would sway my decision alone. not to mention the fact an amd is faster than a p4 1.7, but i know you're always right so i'll agree with you.

ewww, put that thing away, you're in public!

 

[o1die]

If you don't plan on upgrading, I would check out the closeout deals on socket 423 P4 systems. I've seen 1.7 systems for about $600. They are virtually the same speed as the newer socket 478's. Most enthusiasts don't use the same motherboard when they upgrade. I sell both my motherboard and cpu in the paper if I upgrade, or just sell the whole system and start over.

 

[FUGGER]

Did you take into account the extra money for beefy PSU and HSF?

$320? your way off or buying in australia.

try www.pricewatch.com

Did I mention that the P4 cannot destroy itself in 2 seconds flat like AMD can?

I dont care about keledin biased quotes. he slants everything in favor of AMD.

Some people actually have a need and can use the high memory bandwidth of the P4.

Take these posts for example.

http://forumz.tomshardware.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=faq&notfound=1&code=1

http://forumz.tomshardware.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=faq&notfound=1&code=1

http://forumz.tomshardware.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=faq&notfound=1&code=1

http://forumz.tomshardware.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=faq&notfound=1&code=1

Sure there are hundreds of posts like these, click on any page in this forum and you will find more posts like these. some pages have multiple posts reguarding AMD horror stories =)

Good luck find 1 thread on "My P4 fried" or "help my P4 locks up every 2 minutes" or "my P4 reboots randomly". All are very common problems with AMD systems. I expect the lemmings to chime in claiming how stable they are but that doesnt help the folks who posted hundred of threads stating otherwise on this forum alone.

Ok, from that small set of posts, how much time was wasted? how much aggravation did these go thru? was it worth the savings? will they buy AMD again?

 

[jollygrinch]

FUGGER is one of the gentlemen that Kelledin was refering to that couldn't come up with a list of incompatabilities. He was chalenged a few months ago to come up with ten, and couldn't...again in his post he said "there are many incompatabilities out there", he hasen't proved any so far...ask him to give you a link to some, he can't. he obviously has some math issues, kelledin cited pricewatch.com and listed components and compared them to the p4 system you were considering...the difference is almost 2x, not 10 dollars.

as far as your original question, i think you'd be happy with an athlon system, on the other hand, i think you'd be happy with a p4 system too...nither are bad systems, but like someone else pointed out if you go p4 go with rdram too. without it the p4 is crippled and pointless.

no vestige of a beginning, no prospect of an end, when we all disintegrate, it'll all happen again.

 

[Kelledin]

Let's go over this one more time, FUGGER...

You claimed to reach ~7500 3Dmarks using Detonator 3's, a GeForce3@220, and a P41.5@1.875. You never did manage to prove that such a setup could reach those scores. Every "proof" you tried to fob off had some critical part of the setup changed. It doesn't really matter what your 1.8@2.x scored with Detonator 4's, your original claim was BS. Pretty much everyone--P4 owners included--was in agreement on that point.

Not to mention which, you haven't even been back for twenty minutes when someone else (mbetea) had to correct your misinformation again. Congratulations, I've never seen you fall flat on your ass so fast before. Or haven't I? :lol:

Kelledin

"/join #hackerz. See the Web. DoS interesting people."

P.S. Dean Martin, eat your heart out. :tongue:

 

[jollygrinch]

The thermal issue that FUGGER mentioned is true. it sadens me to see amd supporters blindly denying it because it makes them look bad and without credit. the issue is negligable as long as you ensure that your heat sink and fan are properly seccured.

no vestige of a beginning, no prospect of an end, when we all disintegrate, it'll all happen again.

 

[FUGGER]

I have provided many incompatibilities over the passed year; sorry I did not make a list. But I do remember a few. And come across crap all the time like the AVID gray box issues associated with only AMD based machines.

I don’t want to waste my time searching the net just to please some gimp that claims there are "NO" incompatibilities. We both know that is not true =)

Yes I was scoring ~7500 with my original config. Call me a liar all you want, claim my SS was doctored or non-default I DONT CARE. That was the real deal amigo!

Lets step back to page 1 of my claim of ~7500, in that first posts did I say if it was a default or non-default? You guys were so bent on calling me a liar all else didn’t matter (OS or driver used).

1800Mhz machines and OC Geforce3 were hitting ~7500, I didn’t need to prove anything, you guys were just a bunch of whining gimps who were bested by a P4 =) now that im scoring ~9k you still want to call me a liar? LMAO @ U

Corrected?? Um, no... You might want to rethink that statement again.

Kelidin I had ~7500 Det 3 scores posted or did you miss them? I love how matisaro pulled his scores down AHAHAHAHAH!

And there were many 1800Mhz machines posting scores like mine so that blows your "proof" theory. Others confirmed NOT denied my scores were possible, the only denial come from AMD lemmings, go figure.

I even posted links to scores from machines like mine with even higher scores than mine.

Get over it already, beat my score and then maybe you can talk [-peep-] about my score chump. Otherwise you’re the one who is talking BS.

Anyway, lets get back to the topic. AMD sucks ass for dependability.

 

[Kelledin]

Yes, let's get back to the point. Nice to note that Intel is the only one who has produced a truly unstable CPU (a la P3 1.13GHz@0.18u) or a truly unstable chipset (a la i820+MTH). Hot damn, that's dependable! :lol:

Kelledin

"/join #hackerz. See the Web. DoS interesting people."

 

[FUGGER]

Keledin, well how soon you forget about the K6-2 & win95, Ill dig up a few more AMD disasters tomorrow.

 

[Uncle_joe]

Explain this:

According to Mercury Research Inc., Scottsdale, Ariz., in the second quarter of 2001, AMD had a 22.2% share of the total PC microprocessor market, up from 17.2% in the fourth quarter of 2000. Intel's share declined over the same period from 81.5% to 76.7%. AMD's current customer base includes Compaq, Fujitsu, HP, IBM, NEC, and Sony, as well as all of the top-tier board makers.

(from <A HREF="http://www.ebnonline.com/digest/story/OEG20010928S0119 " target="_new">http://www.ebnonline.com/digest/story/OEG20010928S0119 </A>)

If intel makes better CPUs, why are they loosing market share?





Breaking news: Intel hit by a SledgeHammer! AMD to blame! More in just a moment...

 

[Kelledin]

The K6-2+Win95 was a Win95 bug, and it was patched away with no performance penalty. Windows NT 4, being the fairly stable and half-decently developed O/S that it was, didn't exhibit the problem at all. So one piece of software choked on it, and no other piece of software did...yeah, must be a hardware bug! We all know Win95 was just a rock-solid piece of art, don't we? :tongue:

There was <i>no</i> way to patch any software for the 1.13GHz disaster or the i820+MTH.

Shovel harder. :lol:

Kelledin

"/join #hackerz. See the Web. DoS interesting people."

 

[dhlucke]

Just disregard anything the following people recommend and you'll be ok.

1. Fugger
2. AMDmeltdown

There are a couple of other people that are EXTREMELY BIASED, but I'll let those people remain unknown since they at least don't make stuff up for attention. Nonetheless, if your gut tells you that somone is being a fanatic, just ignore their opinion.

<font color=red>God</font color=red> <font color=blue>Bless</font color=blue> <font color=red>America!</font color=red>

 

[AmdMELTDOWN]

Uncle joe, in the last six months *MD has lost Micron, tiny, IBM, Gateway, and has no chance with Dell. a lot of *MD users are switching to Intel.

you are quoting old data, top tiers don't want a fragile POS cpu now, they are losing money with *MD.

*MD's biggest mistakes: lack of thermal protection, cpu fragility, no adverts, new ModelHz deception, and their idiotic fan base.

"<b>AMD/VIA!</b>...you are <i>still</i> the weakest link, good bye!"

 

[Uncle_joe]

If the've lost so many customers, why not file for
bankruptcy? Maybe because they still sell their products?

Data might be old. Probably is. Forgeting that PC market
is lower for all right now? I don't remember seeing or
hearing 'bout Intel's sales, or market share, going up.

And AMP CPU is as fragile as the skill of the idiot
installing HSF.
Forgeting that AMD CPUs have 4 spacers on it's corners?
I have put, at least, 6 (six) times HSF on, without any
cracked or fried CPUs. Those who put 1/2 lb of thermal
compound, thinking that it will improve heat transfer,
usualy have different expirience.

True, AMD does not advertise at all. How the hell do they
sell so manu CPUs then? Hmmmmm....
And for fragility and thermal protection, just read
previous paragraph.
Regarding new rating, the fact is that AMD require less
cycles than Intel to execute a command on CPU level
(at a same clock speed).
So new rating is underestimating the real computing
power.
Fan base? Go to the paragraph mentioned before.

Btw, why is average idiot buying Intel? As a status simbol.
They won't notice a difference between Duron (or
Celeron) 600 and Pentium4 2G. They are the main reason
Intel has higher sales.





Breaking news: Intel hit by a SledgeHammer! AMD to blame! More in just a moment...

 

[Yahiko81]

Aren't you glad you posted here! It's so fun to watch everyone fighting. The thing everyone is forgetting here is that you said you wanted to build your own system. And yes FUGGER a INTEL system can go dead in 2 secs flat. Ever heard of ESD. What you have to watch out for is static damage. I use and AMD system and recommend AMD. But I won't tell you to shy away from Intel. I would personally start out with AMD. That way if you zap anything it's cheap to replace. AMD systems are very stable. There are many of us here that haven't had any problems with with our systems. AMD does have thermal issues but they really only affect overclockers and the unforunate soles who's heatsinks fall off. AMD will outperform Intel for the price. You really won't see that much of a difference. I'm am assuming that you are a typical user who will only use it for word processing, internet and a couple of games. So if you want to save some money you can put together your own system. If you use AMD and don't overclock you don't have to buy a new heatsink. The one that comes with it is ok. When you get all of your stuff, make sure that you read the manual that came with your mother board. There is a silver bag over the components. Keep them in this bag until you are ready to use them. Do not work over carpet. Always try and ground yourself. You can do this by touching the metal frame of your case. Make sure you set all of the jumpers and switches before you put the motherboard in the system. When you put the processor in it should go in easy with little or no force at all. There is a little lever that you have to lift up, put in the processor, then close the lever. Pull the tape off of the heatsink(HSF) and put it on the processor. When you put it on try and keep it level. Do not rock it. The HSF usually only goes on one way. Make sure that all of your cards are seated properly. Always push them in level and use two hands. Make sure all cables are in correctly. Do not force them, as you may bend some pins. Make sure all of the cables are away from the HSF so as not to break the fins on your fan. This is about all I can think of right now. I'm sure others will add to this. I hope you find it useful.

Nice <b><font color=green>Lizards</b></font color=green> <b>crunch</b> Trolls cookies....... Yummy!!

 

[FatBurger]

I dont care about keledin biased quotes. he slants everything in favor of AMD.

ROFLMAO
Thanks, FUGGER. I haven't laughed that hard in a long time

<font color=green>I post so you don't have to!
9/11 - RIP</font color=green>

 

[SammyBoy]

Hey, I apologize for the behavior of certain people on both sides of issue here. AMD or Intel, the machine will run. Yes, AMD has the small problem that if you attach a HSF (heatsink and fan) incorrectly, the CPU will fry, or the core will crack. BUT, if you think that you don't have the skill to do so, find a friend who'll do it, or bring it to a computer store for that part. That's the issue that I feared most with my system, but now, 2 months later, I've taken the HSF off many times and replaced it with no problems.

As to compatability issues. I've had my system for a few months, runnig Win98SE with plethora of games and other software. My only issues stem not from my CPU, but my KyroII video card and my SBLive! sound card. And the only time my system freezes is when my SBLive! goes wacko... which is why I'm replacing it. Otherwise, everything works well, and my system is very stable.

Now motherboards are a crap shoot. Really, stay away from any motherboard with a VIA chipset, or an AMD/VIA hybrid chipset. Those are trouble. SiS735, the nForce when it's out, and ALi Magik (some might argue otherwise, but it works great for me), are the ones to focus on, and if you're not in a hurry, I suggest waiting around a month to two months, because by then, all the fall offerings will be out, and you'll have so many things to choose from, your head'll spin. And that, my friend, is the gist of it.