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Price difference between P4 and Athlon system

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October 2, 2001 12:33:53 AM

Note: Prices temporarily removed until system listings are revamped by the AMD crowd. Vote on the hardware you would like to see for the AMD system. Note that this should be a system with which you would be happy for at least 9 months. You should be capable of overclocking later in the lifecycle should you desire. I will modify the Pentium 4 system to raise its specifications with better memory that can be run at PC1066 to allow for overclocking as well.


Retail Intel P4 1.7 with HSF (3 year warranty) = $___
P4 i850 chipset Motherboard = $___
512MB PC800 DRDRAM (2*256) = $___
Generic case + 400 watt PSU combo = $__
Shipping, usually about $10 per component ($15 for case) = $__
---------
$___


Infineon PC2100 DDR 512MB CAS2 = $__
OEM AMD Athlon 1.4GHz (15-30 day warranty) = $__
ECS K7S5A (SiS735) motherboard = $__
400 watt Enermax PSU = $__
a decent HSF = $__
Generic case (no PSU) = $_
2 Case fans = $__
Shipping, usually about $10 per component ($15 for case) = $__
----------
$___


-Raystonn


= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my employer. =
October 2, 2001 12:56:58 AM

Thanks Raystonn for clearing that up.

If you get retail boxed 1.4 AMD it $119 brings the margin to $18.

woohoo $18

Ray, your generic case without PSU price is off. its closer to $5 =P but thats for AXT "mini", you will need something closer to the $20 range to hold more than 1 part inside. bringing the price difference to $7

Most people still buy beefy HSF over the retail one, same goes for the PSU on AMD systems. (I guess they think it adds inches to their dick)
October 2, 2001 1:02:49 AM

1) Athlons don't need an Enermax; we just happen to like Enermax PSUs because they're the Cadillac of PSUs. P4 and Athlon both require roughly the same class power supplies; the Athlon could probably survive in the same case as the P4. Knock off $65 (plus another $10 for one less component to ship).

2) Since we're on the subject of retail, let's make both CPUs retail (with HSF). Athlon 1.4GHz retail with HSF is $119. There's your three-year warranty, and knock off another $21 (plus $10 for shipping, again)...

3) I <b>always</b> put two case fans in--it's just basic practice these days. A co-worker of mine had to do so with his P3 1GHz--else the GF2 and P3 together would overheat to the point of lockup. Imagine the further distress with a P4 dissipating at least twice the heat (~65W vs. ~30W). Add $15 to the cost of the P4 system...

4) Latest price on PriceWatch for a P4 1.7GHz is $189 (though it's marked as having dropped recently). Let's be slightly forgiving and add only $10 to the price of the P4.

5) If we're going rock-bottom on RDRAM prices, we might as well go rock-bottom on CAS2 PC2100 prices. Crappy memory will screw you with either platform, so...knock off another $16; helloooo, crappy memory! :wink:

$16+$10+$15+$31+$75+$38=$185 savings+3-yr. CPU warranty for a system that generally outperforms the P4 1.7GHz.

Kelledin

"/join #hackerz. See the Web. DoS interesting people."
Related resources
October 2, 2001 1:11:51 AM

LOL! 15-30 day warranty! no RMA there huh!

add $60 to the $40 for the swiftech($100).

$542 total

"<b>AMD/VIA!</b>...you are <i>still</i> the weakest link, good bye!"
October 2, 2001 1:14:10 AM

"1) Athlons don't need an Enermax; we just happen to like Enermax PSUs because they're the Cadillac of PSUs. P4 and Athlon both require roughly the same class power supplies; the Athlon could probably survive in the same case as the P4. Knock off $65 (plus another $10 for one less component to ship)."

Athlons require a great deal more power to operate than do Pentium 4s. Between the extra wattage from the CPU itself and the extra CPU and case fans pumping out heat, it requires a decent PSU if you do not want problems.


"2) Since we're on the subject of retail, let's make both CPUs retail (with HSF). Athlon 1.4GHz retail with HSF is $119. There's your three-year warranty, and knock off another $21 (plus $10 for shipping, again)..."

You would purchase a retail Athlon? We are discussing systems we would buy here. I am not very confident in the HSF that comes with a retail Athlon, are you? If so, why is it that noone buys them?


"3) I always put two case fans in--it's just basic practice these days. A co-worker of mine had to do so with his P3 1GHz--else the GF2 and P3 together would overheat to the point of lockup. Imagine the further distress with a P4 dissipating at least twice the heat (~65W vs. ~30W). Add $15 to the cost of the P4 system..."

Sure, another $15 cannot hurt.


"4) Latest price on PriceWatch for a P4 1.7GHz is $189 (though it's marked as having dropped recently). Let's be slightly forgiving and add only $10 to the price of the P4."

Nope. The latest price on the Pentium 4 1.7GHz is $172. I got my prices from PriceWatch.


"5) If we're going rock-bottom on RDRAM prices, we might as well go rock-bottom on CAS2 PC2100 prices. Crappy memory will screw you with either platform, so...knock off another $16; helloooo, crappy memory!"

There is no crappy DRDRAM memory. They are all manufactured and tested at the highest of quality levels. This is one of the requirements in the Rambus licensing agreement. Failure to remain at the agreed upon level of quality means termination of license. The cheapest PC-800 DRDRAM is still of the highest quality when run at PC-800 speeds. The only reason to look for non-generic DRDRAM, such as a module from Samsung, would be to overclock it to PC-1066 (all Samsung modules overclock to PC-1066 currently.) Since we are not overclocking these machines, this is irrelevant. We are going for the best available memory for your machine without overclocking. Memory prices remain.


-Raystonn


= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my employer. =
October 2, 2001 1:24:27 AM

Crutial 2x256M PC2100 = $67 (-$32)
425W PSU generic = $23 ($9.95 s+h) (-$60)
2 case fans = $8 (-$7)
Thermaltake DRAGON ORB 3 = $22 (-$18)

15 min on Pricewatch.com, and I saved $117!!!

Bullshit somewhere else.





Breaking news: Intel hit by a SledgeHammer! AMD to blame! More in just a moment...
October 2, 2001 1:56:23 AM

1) The P4 1.7GHz has a maximum wattage of between 70-75W. The Athlon 1.4 has a maximum wattage of about 75-80W. Both are capable of idling in low-power when the O/S issues an HLT instruction. 5W not really significant, especially for a CPU that gets rather more work done overall.

Btw, a re-niced pingflood of localhost kicks an Athlon 1.33GHz CPU's temperature to all of 51 C after fifteen minutes--this with a cheesy old GlobalWIN FOP32. An Athlon CPU will spend most of its time at a considerably lower load than that.

2) I wouldn't buy retail of *either* CPU. Intel's HSF fails to impress, much as AMD's HSF does. :tongue:

4) Cool, I see it now. Slightly modified search parameters pulled it up.

5) I've seen corners cut in this sort of licensing scheme in every industry--even (or especially?) when the government holds the right to revoke the license. Rigorous QC or not, some companies will quietly fail to meet some of the QC conditions. I have yet to see any licensing model where this didn't happen, and frankly, I doubt I ever will.

Kelledin

"/join #hackerz. See the Web. DoS interesting people."
a b à CPUs
October 2, 2001 1:57:07 AM

I think the main point of this post was to state that prices are falling. The old arguement that Amd was a lot cheeper and a better value is not as true anymore. Yes amd is a little cheaper still but not by much.

I aint signing nothing!!!
October 2, 2001 2:14:53 AM

Your shipping costs are off. Newegg is a good example for this stuff. Subtract $30

Enermax is not needed. Subtract $25

512 MB from Crucial in 2 sticks. Subtract $30. No shipping costs.

HSF. Subtract $10

CPU, add $15 depending on if you want the warranty.

The price difference is still enough, but narrowing. Newegg is down right now so I can't get an exact figure. This is of course leaving all the performance issues out of the whole argument.

<font color=red>God</font color=red> <font color=blue>Bless</font color=blue> <font color=red>America!</font color=red>
October 2, 2001 2:51:34 AM

That's true Rick.
Remember when Athlon came with 1GHz? It was $1k.
Now 1.4 is $99. WOW!!!

Now go back further. 1993. 486DX50 rig for $2500! OUCH!!!
First P75 rig. $3000 (or so)!!!
My first point is this: with no AMD around, Intel was
charging BIG $$$ for their stuff. Now they can't do that.

Remember Cyrus CPUs? Where are they? Gone. Why? Too little
bangs for a lot of bucks. AMD was there too. Where are they
today? :)  Why? A LOTT bangs for a few bucks.
Intel, right now is loosing CPU market share to AMD
(Intel from ~82% to ~78%, AMD from ~18% to ~22%).
So price of Pentiums go down.
My second point would be that AMD has built the brand name,
and that a lot of people wont go back to Intel, even if it
becomes cheaper than AMD.





Breaking news: Intel hit by a SledgeHammer! AMD to blame! More in just a moment...
October 2, 2001 3:15:58 AM

ENLIGHT EN-72370X3 MEDIUM ATX TOWER CASE - OEM Recommended by AMD with 300Watts Power Supply, 4 5.25" Bays, 2 3.5" Bays & 1 Hidden 3.5" Bay <b>$47</b>

SUNON 80x80x25mm Case Fan, Ballbearing, DC 12V, 2.0W, 2900 RPM, 39.0 CFM, 4-pin. MODEL: KD1208PTB2 (2).H
2@$5/ea <b>$10</b>

ECS Socket A K7S5A SiS® 735 chipset motherboard with On-Board LAN Port. Retail 5 PCI Slots, 1 4X AGP slot, 1 AMR slot. 2 DDR DIMM sockets and 2 DIMM sockets support (can not be used simultaneously). Two 184-pin DDR SDRAM (DDR200, DDR266) or Two 168-pin 3.3V SDRAM (PC100, PC133). Maximum: 1.0GB (DDR or SDRAM) <b>$65</b>

AMD Athlon Thunderbird 1.4GHz 266MHz Bus Socket A PGA Processor-Retail Box Version with Heatsink and Fan <b>$119</b>

SubTotal <b>$241</b>
Shipping <b>$27</b>

Crucial 256MB DDR PC2100 • CL=2.5 • Unbuffered • Non-parity • 2.5V • 32Meg x 64 2@$33/ea <b>$66</b>

<font color=blue><b>TOTAL $334</b></font color=blue>


<font color=red>God</font color=red> <font color=blue>Bless</font color=blue> <font color=red>America!</font color=red>
October 2, 2001 4:15:22 AM

I find your choice of items and price comparison to be reasonable.
However, what I don't agree with is your implication that a P4 1700 with RD RAM is as good as the T-Bird 1.4 with DDR RAM in terms of performance.

If you feel that the warranty and thermal protection makes up for that performance difference, then fine. Otherwise, you're going to need to increase the CPU speed, and the higher clocked P4's can cost up to $537 (that's the price of the 2.0Ghz according to <A HREF="http://www.pricewatch.com/" target="_new">pricewatch</A>).

The best CPU for a person really depends of what they use it for, and for me, that's neither the 1.4Ghz Athlon, nor the 1.7Ghz P4. So while your comparison might be perfectly acceptable for you, don't expect me to rush out and buy a Pentium 4 based on it.

"Ignorance is bliss, but I tend to get screwed over."
October 2, 2001 5:07:01 AM

I agree with you. The P4 2Gig would be a better match performance wise. The cost difference shoots up quick when you go that route and of course with anything computer related if you pay $537 today it will cost $99 8 months from now.
October 2, 2001 6:19:28 AM

ummm that enermax line is just bollocks rayston... sorry.

im running my oc-ed 1200C at 1350 using, i found out, quite a crappy generic 300W psu.

course if want to overclock further (and who doesnt) i would get a better one (and i am)
but an amd solution doesnt NEED one, no more than a P4 does.

and i wouldnt call Cas2.5 PC2100 ram crappy. its standard. PC1600 now thats crappy ;) 
(pc1600 is probably all the ram that wasnt good enough to make it to pc2100)

Religious wars are 2 groups of people fighting over who has the best imaginary friend.
October 2, 2001 12:29:22 PM

My goodness Raystonn, this is a troll post!

$27 for a P4 case and PS, $92 for the Athlon case and PS? What absolute nonsense. You should do a little more research on your pricing.

Here is some help. While not the least expensive pricing on the web (neither was yours for the AMD system), the tools provided by mwave.com to configure a barebones system gives you a good idea of the difference in price between AMD and Intel system. Go to the Barebones page, and configure a system using the same case, same amount of memory. Use whatever processors you wish, and choose 2 boards that are about the same price. Now you can compare AMD SDRAM and DDR SDRAM systems for prices, and Intel 850 and 845 systems for price. But no matter how you look at it, the AMD systems STILL have the price/performance advantage. Don't forget about the performance penalties when configuring a P4 845 system.

But you are excused this time, after all, you do work for Intel.

Ten minutes later.....

I have done the work for you. For comparison, the same cases are used. The socket 423 case and the AMD DDR case are both the mwave 6606 case. All other systems use the 6016 case. All have 256meg of RAM. Motherboards are very similiar in price.

Intel P4 1.7 850 chipset RDRAM $578
Intel P4 1.7 845 chipset SDRAM $429
AMD 1.4 DDR AMD chipset $429

Intel 1ghz P3 815 chipset $401
AMD Athlon 1ghz KT133a $285

Intel Celeron 900mhz $248
AMD Duron 900mhz $243

In all comparisons, the price/performance is with AMD, especially when the 845 is employed. Prices are very close in the Celeron/Duron, but the Celeron cannot stand up to the Duron in performance.

Real world prices from the same source, my opinions only....

<font color=blue>This is a Forum, not a playground. Treat it with Respect.</font color=blue><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by jlbigguy on 10/02/01 08:55 AM.</EM></FONT></P>
October 2, 2001 3:21:59 PM

Ray,
I used to hold you in such high regards, and here you are trolling. I'm ashamed of you.

Nice <b><font color=green>Lizards</b></font color=green> <b>crunch</b> Trolls cookies....... :smile: Yummy!! :smile:
October 2, 2001 3:52:58 PM

Interesting pricing..... seeing how I actually own one of these lets look at a few things.

Infineon PC2100 DDR 512MB CAS2 = $99
OEM AMD Athlon 1.4GHz (15-30 day warranty) = $99
ECS K7S5A (SiS735) motherboard = $62
400 watt Enermax PSU = $83
a decent HSF = $30
Generic case (no PSU) = $9
2 Case fans = $15
Shipping, usually about $10 per component ($15 for case) = $75
----------
$472

First of all the Ram.<A HREF="http://www.crucial.com/index.asp?AID=5032657&PID=881616" target="_new">http://www.crucial.com/index.asp?AID=5032657&PID=881616...;/A> not only a good price but some of the best Ram. 2 x 256 will run you $66.00 and free shipping ( 2nd day air). Savings of $43.00 ( remember you charged an additional $10.00 for shipping)

400 Watt enermax??? Nice but not neccesary, My 1.4 t-bird is running just as happy as can be with this generic case p/s <A HREF="http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=..." target="_new">http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=...;/A> Cost $49.00 includding shipping, that nets us a savings of $62.00 ($83.00 + $9.00 + $20.00=$112.00).And yes it is running a 1.4 gig t-bird, two quantum 40 gig AS drives in Raid along with a Kenwood 72x cd-rom and a Phillips burner. And btw although I cannot be for certain can you give me the brand of that generic case with 400 watt power supply you quoted? If it is that future power 400 watt supply you need to address that as well for I bought one of those and it would not even run my p3 750 stable.

HSF..... I picked up a wbk38 for $20.00 local add another $20.00 savings.

As for the case fans are you saying you would not need them in a p4 setup? Remember we are not only dealing with processor heat but the build up of heat in the case of all components including the hard drive(s) and video card ? I would strongly hope that even if building a p4 system a user would include those in his system as well...while not a savings this cost shold still be added to the p4 system as well still netting a difference of $25.00.

This now paints quite a differnt picture:

AMD system $347.00
Intel system $545.00

A savings of $200.00 over the Intel system all while the AMD system outpeforms the p4 system. And this system does not exist only on paper but sits before me.

One last thing your shippings prices are assuming that you buy each part from a differnt company. Smart shoppers try to get as many items from one place as possible not just the very cheapest price for each item as the shipping charges usually negate the savings.

Video editing?? Ha, I don't even own a camera!
October 2, 2001 4:14:43 PM

Very good jbigg, love the post short consise and leaving raystonn no wriggle room.

~Matisaro~
"The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark"
~Tbird1.3@1.5~
October 2, 2001 4:16:17 PM

Rayyston, I cant believe you are trolling man.

~Matisaro~
"The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark"
~Tbird1.3@1.5~
October 2, 2001 5:06:01 PM

Ok, I think I'll join the fun ;) 
I'm going to do it differently, though. I think I shall build a dream system from each camp (no MP, though). Just for the hell of it. (No, this isn't designed to be biased for either one).

Intel
------------
Abit TH7-II $168
Pentium 4 2.0, socket 478 $545 (retail)
512meg RDRAM (2x256) $164


AMD
-----------
Abit KG7-RAID (tough choice)$141
AMD Athlon 1.4/266 $121
512meg PC2100 (2x256) $52

Combined components
-----------
Lian-Li PC60 $149
Enermax 430w $78
Ati Radeon 8500 $248
Pioneer 106s $57
Plextor 24/10/40 $195
Seagate x15's (x3) RAID 5 $1605
Case modding gear, fans, etc$200


Totals:
Intel - $3409
AMD - $2846


Ok, that's 20% difference in price. I could've gone with more hard drives or a huge monitor, but I decided to only do the case and what's inside of it (and not go too much overboard...too late).
Now, for 20% difference in price (or $563), what would the performance difference be? I say...WHO CARES!!
Why are we taking the time to dream up all kind of combinations to show what system is better than the other? This is stupid! Do we really have nothing better to do with our time? I know I don't :) 

FUGGER supposedly works for SGI, but that's not an important enough job that he has to come here and post?

Raystonn supposedly works for Intel and has all kinds of advance knowledge that he can't tell us about, but he prefers to spend his free time posting on here? He helps out a lot, but I wonder why this is a priority?

Meltdown has supposedly built hundreds of systems, but all he can say about AMD is it's a "fragile POS"? Not the most professional opinion I've ever heard.


Come on people, isn't it time we moved on? These same arguments have been going around since the beginning of computers. I've honestly seen people argue about which type of memory daughter card for their Amiga is the best!! (That was from a long time ago, that hasn't happened recently, of course). But does that sound familiar to anyone? Great, let's debate the different possibilities of different processors. Let's NOT bicker like children. Let's NOT pretend that our opinions are going to be listened to by Intel, AMD, nVidia, Ati, etc. Let's NOT make up things because people across the country (or world), will be impressed by our vast knowledge that for some strange reason resembles a cloud of fog. Transparent, and as soon as a decent wind comes up, or the sun breaks through, it disappears. Am I coming through to anyone?


This is turning out to be a long post, but let me tell you something. I do sound for my church. It's a church of about 4000, and we have a pretty nice sound system (worth about a million dollars).
Let me tell you something about our pastor. He's an awesome guy, great writer, preacher, etc.
Sometimes I hate him. Know why? Because he has absolutely no respect for the AV crew. I've been working in it for about 2 years, and people keep leaving. I personally have seen about 4 of the House Engineers that I worked with (and learned from), just up and leave. 1 is still going to the church off and on.
This Sunday, I got a lot of crap from several people. For no reason. I was doing everything just fine, and a few people have said that I did a great job on Sunday. He didn't see that. He kept on sending his sidekick (a guy I went to school with that I like a lot), over with messages like "Tell them that before I kill them they need to fix the bass.". There was nothing wrong with the bass, it sounded fine. Everyone else in the room thought the service sounded great. That happened several times that morning.
Another one of the pastors gets up, and because someone up in the Visual area (three floors above the floor, with glass windows looking into the sanctuary), isn't doing what he wants, he makes a very rude and sarcastic comment to someone who has no idea what to do (the person who should've been up there to do it wasn't). I doubt he's looking forward to the next time he's scheduled.

I asked to be taken off the schedule for this month. Will I ever do sound in my church again? I doubt it. I play guitar there once a month, I don't know if I want to do that anymore, it'll be a tough decision.

Yesterday I got to work, and came here to get my mind of of things. What did I see? More pointless bickering, like "AMD/Intel's stock is in the crapper, and their CEO is laying people off, and...", etc, etc, etc.

I'm sick of all the arguing, and I'm really starting to understand why people like Grizely1, who have been around so long, now only post in the Other section. It's an outlet from the normal lives we lead. This? This is just more of the same, little boys saying "My daddy can beat up your daddy!" "Oh yeah? Well, my daddy makes more!"

I'm sick of it, and I hope you are too.

<font color=green>I post so you don't have to!
9/11 - RIP</font color=green>
October 2, 2001 5:15:43 PM

Hey you didn't say anything about me posting here :frown: I blow off my job to!!! don't forget me. If you do I'll have my dad kick your dad's ass.

Nice <b><font color=green>Lizards</b></font color=green> <b>crunch</b> Trolls cookies....... :smile: Yummy!! :smile:
October 2, 2001 5:28:33 PM

It is so slow at my work I can post here at night(while working) however they monitor traffic so I have to moderate myself.(one full cpu forum sweep per night.)

~Matisaro~
"The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark"
~Tbird1.3@1.5~
October 2, 2001 5:37:33 PM

Hmmm... that sucks. I'm sure they monitor what I do but I don't care. It's not really that big of a deal. My boss came over a bit ago and said so have you gotten any new info since we last spoke (3 hrs earlier) and I said "nope, what are you guys working on over there" He just said that they were trying to stay busy but didn't have really anything to do. so I don't think they care to much if I post here all day.

Nice <b><font color=green>Lizards</b></font color=green> <b>crunch</b> Trolls cookies....... :smile: Yummy!! :smile:
October 2, 2001 6:50:35 PM

~ Raystonn, I cant believe you are trolling man. ~

Maybe this should be 'Raystonn Trolling Week'. That way he can blow of some steam for the week without losing his cred.

Then he can return to being the objective and sane voice of the forum that we all respect him for.

Go on Raystonn... try out your best Fuggerisms!


<font color=blue> Smoke me a Chip'er ... I'll be back in the Morgan </font color=blue> :eek: 
October 2, 2001 6:52:25 PM

Ja, I think a week of trolling is forgiveable for Raystonn. He's got several months of sound advice behind his rep--can't forget that!

Kelledin

"/join #hackerz. See the Web. DoS interesting people."
October 2, 2001 6:58:18 PM

I fail to see any trolling here. I pulled my prices from PriceWatch. If you'd like to point out better prices, then do so and I will adjust the figures in the post as I stated.

-Raystonn


= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my employer. =
October 2, 2001 6:59:23 PM

I just hope that once he starts trolling that he can stop. It seems to be adDICKtive. Just look at Fugger and AMDMeltdown.

Nice <b><font color=green>Lizards</b></font color=green> <b>crunch</b> Trolls cookies....... :smile: Yummy!! :smile:
October 2, 2001 7:01:00 PM

I fail to see any trolling here. I pulled my prices from PriceWatch. If you'd like to point out better prices, then do so and I will adjust the figures in the post as I stated. You should note that Athlon systems require better cooling and power solutions than do Pentium 4 systems, thus the requirement for additional or better parts there.

-Raystonn


= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my employer. =
October 2, 2001 7:08:21 PM

It just that you used a more expensive case for the athlon, you used a single stick of ram instead of 2 256 sticks and generally didn't use the lowest prices for the athlon system.

Nice <b><font color=green>Lizards</b></font color=green> <b>crunch</b> Trolls cookies....... :smile: Yummy!! :smile:
October 2, 2001 7:11:13 PM

"FUGGER supposedly works for SGI, but that's not an important enough job that he has to come here and post?" - I love to poke a stick at the lemmings in my spare time. whree was I all last week? Installing new replacement systems for ones that were lost in WTC disaster and restoring data.

"It's a church of about 4000, and we have a pretty nice sound system (worth about a million dollars)." - 1000000/4000 = $250.00 donated by each person... something is way off here. at 250 per seat they can have IMAX theatre or a 2x reality centers. You can have monitor at every seat with headphones for that kind of money.

http://www.sgi.com/realitycenter/visit.html

Sure you can twist pricing around on a PC, I didnt see enyone quote PC600 RDRAM!

BTW Intel HSF kicks ass, It outperforms the Thermatake volcano for P4 at a slower RMP. I went back to my retail fan after paying 20 bucks for volcano.
October 2, 2001 7:18:50 PM

The barebones systems that were priced on mwave.com all come with cooling solutions (both AMD and Intel). As for my AMD TBird 900, I use an AVC 112600 HSF which is AMD approved, and costs all of $9.00.

But compare apples to apples. Keep the cases the same, the amount of RAM the same, and the motherboard prices the same. But when motherboard prices are equal, then there are advantages to the AMD systems that I did not list, such as the RAID on the Athlon boards.

My pricing is more real world, comparing the different barebones systems built by the same vendor.

As for power requirements, don't fall for your own propaganda. AMD recommends 300 watts power supplies, and even has a few 250 watt supplies on their approved list. AMD systems require no more power then does a P4 system.

<font color=blue>This is a Forum, not a playground. Treat it with Respect.</font color=blue>
October 2, 2001 7:20:30 PM

Quote:
You can have monitor at every seat with headphones for that kind of money.


If that's all we spent the money on, sure. There are more important things going on.

<font color=green>I post so you don't have to!
9/11 - RIP</font color=green>
October 2, 2001 7:23:08 PM

Quote:
You should note that Athlon systems require better cooling and power solutions than do Pentium 4 systems

Not more than $9 for Volcano II and it doesn't require to <b>have</b> an expensive Enermax (that you seem conveniently forgot!!!) as I've been using (Antec 300W and A1 Electronics 400W).

:smile: Good or Bad have no meaning at all, depends on what your point of view is.
October 2, 2001 7:41:35 PM

Do you go to church? Most people donate that much in a month or two. I'm sure it's not that hard to raise money in a church. Every one is willing to donate.

Nice <b><font color=green>Lizards</b></font color=green> <b>crunch</b> Trolls cookies....... :smile: Yummy!! :smile:
October 2, 2001 7:58:08 PM

Quote:
You should note that Athlon systems require better cooling and power solutions than do Pentium 4 systems, thus the requirement for additional or better parts there.

Not for a 5W difference in power consumption. I've seen laptop hard drives that consume more power than that. :tongue:

Kelledin

"/join #hackerz. See the Web. DoS interesting people."
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
October 2, 2001 8:16:42 PM

*shrug*

$48 more for a P4 system that will perform on par with a 1 GHz Athlon for my application.

No thanks.

And I agree with some others here that you've padded the memory, case/PS/fans numbers a bit.


<i>The early bird gets the worm...
but the second mouse gets the cheese!</i>
October 2, 2001 8:25:27 PM

If AMD systems do not require such a good PSU, then lets just reduce the price for the AMD system a bit. I added the Enermax based on all the prior posts with recommendations to new posters who were asking about building an AMD system. I tried to stick with what I thought most people in this forum would purchase for their own system. The Pentium 4 system that was listed was top quality and would likely overclock quite a bit. I wanted the same quality for the AMD components and just took the hardware most people on this board recommend. It was not my intention to troll or cause a ruckus, just to do a small price comparison.

I have a proposition: Put together a price list for an AMD system that you would purchase in a similar manner to the way I did it. I will modify my post with your AMD system's specifications and prices. Note that this should be a system with which you would be happy for at least 9 months. You should be capable of overclocking later in the lifecycle should you desire. I will modify the Pentium 4 system to raise its specifications with better memory that can be run at PC1066 to allow for overclocking as well.

My intent is not to troll. My intent is to compare. Trolls comment on the mothers of the poster. I just like to comment about the mother of all hardware...

-Raystonn


= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my employer. =
October 2, 2001 8:36:58 PM

Give me a bit. When I get home I will post my system. I will also post the prices. I'm telling you know the price is going to be around 2k.

Nice <b><font color=green>Lizards</b></font color=green> <b>crunch</b> Trolls cookies....... :smile: Yummy!! :smile:
October 2, 2001 9:40:01 PM

Hmmm ok then...

Motherboard -- Tyan Tiger 760MP -- $208
CPUs -- 2xAthlonMP 1.4's -- $596
(hey, they're on pricewatch.)
Memory -- 4xCorsair PC2400 CAS2 256MB -- $236
(I really would have liked to get 4x1GB PC2100--i don't overclock--but you want O/C'ability. Fine then :tongue: )
Case -- SuperMicro SC850 -- $1445
(already have it)
Sound -- SBLive! Platinum 5.1 -- $76
(some may not like it, but it is my choice.)
Adaptec 3400S SCSI RAID -- $699
(for $50 less, I could have only two channels...nah, go all four)
HDD -- 10xSeagate Cheetah X15 36GB SCA-- $5390
(it'll be hard giving up my Atlas 10K 2's...but it seems like Seagate finally got it together U160-wise.)
SCSI -- Adaptec 29160 -- $185
(the RAID card isn't really an ASPI-capable card)
Scanner -- Epson Expression 1600 SCSI w/ transparency unit -- $1200
(actually, I couldn't find it on PW. $1200 is close to what I paid for mine though)
Monitor -- Sony GDM-FW900 -- $1722
(already have it)
NIC -- Intel PRO/1000 copper -- $174
(already have the fiber variant...but I would have bought copper if it was available at the time)
DVD -- Pioneer U06S -- $57
(NO SCSI??? <insert Germanic profanities here>)
CDRW -- Plextor 24x -- $229 at PCnation.com
(couldn't find on PW. Again...NO SCSI??? <more Germanic profanities ensue>)
Tape -- HP DAT40 external -- $1300
(already have the internal. might ditch for DLT.)
Video -- GainWard GF3 -- $276
Speakers -- Klipsch ProMedia 5.1 -- $399
Home punched ribbon cable -- AMP parts -- give me a few minutes on that.
Mouse -- Logitech Trackman Marble Wheel USB/PS2 -- $32
(already have PS/2. Oh well, another $32)
Keyboard -- not sure yet. Assume another $32
Floppy drive -- my current 2.88MB floppy drive
(I ripped it out of an old AXP150. Supposedly not produced anymore =P. Perhaps I should go w/LS120? perhaps)
HSF -- 2xAlpha PAL8035 -- $78 at coolerguys.com.
(may have to get different ones though--space is tight on Tiger 760MP)
~$100 for misc. external SCSI cabling

Total of $14365.

(Actually, screw the PC2400 memory. This is what <i>I</i> want. four Corsair PC2100 1GB sticks -- $2400 at pcprogress.com)

Total of $16520.

Kelledin

"/join #hackerz. See the Web. DoS interesting people."

P.S. WB ergeorge! long time no see! :smile:
October 2, 2001 10:07:08 PM

I'll just post what I have right now. But my question is this, what kind of data will you use to judge your own CPU selection? I myself would figure a 1.2GHz Athlon to be about equal to a 1.6GHz or 1.7GHz P4, but you might figure 1.4GHz P4. So, I think you'll have to be open to people riding you about your CPU selection if I post what I have.

My Sys:
AMD Athlon "C" 1.2GHz (retail) - $109 with S/H
Asus A7A266 (retail) - $135 with S/H
(Not what I have, but makes it easy) 2 sticks Mushkin basic PC2100 2.5CL, 256MB each - $68 with free shipping
Antec SX830 w/ PS and 2 case fans (runs perfectly, and quiet) - $89 with S/H

Now, this system is running right now, in my dorm, without a hitch. And, if I could figure out the reasons the multipliers are still locked even with the bridges connected, I'd be overclocking. Needless to say, this system is rock-solid, without a hitch. Even under extreme circumstances, the heat in the case barely goes up. The point? Both the P4 and the Athlon are big time energy suckers and produce a lot of heat. Only an idiot would run a gaming rig without case fans, regardless of overclocking, end of story. With high performance hard drives, video cards, CD burners, and the CPU itself, it'd be impossible to count on passive air flow to take the heat out of the case. Even the chipsets produce heat! So, since my case is compatable with P4 systems, all you really have left to compare is the cost of a middle of the road RDRAM motherboard (the A7A266 is <i>not</i> high-end by any means), 2 sticks of 256MB basic Mushkin RDRAM, and the price of a retail CPU (speed is your call). Everything else in the system is the same, and will work regardless of CPU. I used Mushkin, btw, because I know they are the higher-end, and that they offer both RDRAM and DDR. Otherwise, I'd have used Crucial, which is actually what I have.

And since this in an exercise in futility, because it's all academic and really doesn't affect the real world in anyway (face it, only technophiles listen to other technophiles), I want a pony.

-SammyBoy
October 2, 2001 10:09:59 PM

>Not more than $9 for Volcano II and....,'smack, shut up!'

add $100 for the swiftech, that's what all the overclockers and ppl "in the know" are buying, if you skimp you'll fry.

Volcano sucks, wake up!

"<b>AMD/VIA!</b>...you are <i>still</i> the weakest link, good bye!"
October 2, 2001 10:14:54 PM

Your memory is CL 2.5... Will it run safely at CL2? Will that module allow you to overclock your external clock (FSB) past the normal 133MHz (266MHz) at CL2? You also do not mention any HSF but list a retail AMD processor. Will this be sufficient to safely overclock an Athlon?

-Raystonn


= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my employer. =
October 2, 2001 10:16:45 PM

Nice system, but a tad out of the price range of most enthusiasts. ;) 

-Raystonn


= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my employer. =
October 2, 2001 10:32:17 PM

damn, kelledin everybody is ripping you off (sony, Amd, Seagate, Adaptec, Creative, HP) except Intel!



"<b>AMD/VIA!</b>...you are <i>still</i> the weakest link, good bye!"
October 2, 2001 10:40:25 PM

<font color=blue>"I have a proposition: Put together a price list for an AMD system that you would purchase in a similar manner to the way I did it."</font color=blue>

I already did. Some simple comparisons on barebone systems from the same vendor in my previous post. But, you can go one step further and outfit a system anyway you would like. Again, just use the tools at mwave.com, and add whatever you would like to either the AMD or the Intel system. Just keep all of the parts the same other then the MB and CPU.

Understand, I am not saying AMD is better then Intel, or Intel is better then AMD. I could care less. I am only interested in getting the most bang for the buck, and right now, AMD has the price/performance advantage. I own 3 Intel systems and 1 AMD system. My next upgrade will most probably be AMD, and my decision will be based on price/performance.

<font color=blue>This is a Forum, not a playground. Treat it with Respect.</font color=blue>
October 2, 2001 10:47:39 PM

"Non profit" tax exempt religious organization with a million dollar sound system? Here is the reason why religious organizations should be TAXED! This alone would probably clean up the national debt.

<font color=blue>This is a Forum, not a playground. Treat it with Respect.</font color=blue>
October 2, 2001 10:56:52 PM

We put together our own systems. Do you seriously pay retail?


"Just keep all of the parts the same other then the MB and CPU."

I would like to see an Athlon run with RDRAM. I do not think it will happen any time soon. I would like to see an overclocked Athlon with an overclocked memory bus that will run with the default retail HSF and memory picked out by the retailer. A Pentium 4 would have no problem with this.

-Raystonn


= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my employer. =
October 2, 2001 10:57:33 PM

hahaha!!! the only sound system I've saw at a church(wedding) was a Carvin system that was donated! and any chimp can operate and none of the places I've played in have "million dollar sound system" what a crock!

"<b>AMD/VIA!</b>...you are <i>still</i> the weakest link, good bye!"
October 2, 2001 11:33:31 PM

Very well, Meltdown. Care for a rundown? I believe you know a decent amount about sound, so this shouldn't go over your head.

I'll start with the basics. Our amps are mostly Clair Bros, ranging from 1500w to 5000w. We also have some other assorted brands, but the majority of our stage monitors, all our house speakers and our front fills are all run with Clair amps.
Our floor monitors are Clair (watch SNL, they're the same ones), as are our house speakers. We have 4 pairs above the stage, and 8 individual ones halfway back (the building is a dome, and the sanctuary is fan-shaped). These are of course delayed with the use of four TOA DSPs. The DSPs are controlled via a computer at FoH.

Our House board is a Soundcraft Europa, 40 channel, 12 aux sends (8 returns), and 8 matrices. It has 8 sub groups and 8 VCA groups. From there, we can run feeds up to third floor (the video area, it's actually three floors above the sanctuary), to the transmitter for the hearing impaired receivers, etc.
I tried to find a picture of a Europa for you, but I couldn't.

We also have the misc tape decks, CD player, effects, etc. in a couple of racks a short distance from the Europa. As a sidecar, we use a Yamaha ProMix 01 (not bad, the 01v is a lot better, though). Effects include an SPX 90, a Lexicon 500, etc. I'm hurrying a little because I'm almost off work.
There's also several patch bays in the house, and another computer that we can play MP3s off of, run an RTA, etc.


Our monitor board is an old Wheatstone 40-channel, and I swear we're losing a channel every week (almost literally). We have one of the older Intellix systems, and we're looking to upgrade both of those in the near future. We run almost everything in-ear now, except for the choir and orchestra. All in-ears are Shure E1 or E5's. The worship leader is wireless through a PRS II.

As for mics, we use a Shure Beta 87 for lead vocals, Senheiser 4032's for our six backing vocals, an EV N/DYM 757 at the piano (for vocals, not the piano itself), and the usual misc mics such as a Shure SM57 for the electric guitar.

Our studio has a Soundcraft 6000 32 channel, and several ADAT decks, effects, etc. I don't spend any time back there, so I'm not sure what all is there.


If you're ever in the area, let me know. I can arrange a tour no problem. I might even be able to set up a Carvin system for you to listen to, if you like.

Any other questions?

<font color=green>I post so you don't have to!
9/11 - RIP</font color=green>
October 3, 2001 12:23:31 AM

Quote:
If AMD systems do not require such a good PSU, then lets just reduce the price for the AMD system a bit. I added the Enermax based on all the prior posts with recommendations to new posters who were asking about building an AMD system.

Well there is a difference between required and preferred. You can also find many users recommending a gforce3 but does everyone really need one? Granted the athlon is a bit power hungry but why didn't you recomend the enermax 350 watt supply? You really went out of your way to make the two systems comparable in price and people called you out on it.... I have yet to see you respond to any of the critsisms of your RAM pricings as well....And by the way the crucial Ram does cas 2 just fine documented on many websites and I have yet to see one that states it won't. Mine currently runs at 150 fsb at cl2. And all this powerd by my generic p/s at 350 watts.

Quote:
I have a proposition: Put together a price list for an AMD system that you would purchase in a similar manner to the way I did it.

I did!

Quote:
Note that this should be a system with which you would be happy for at least 9 months.

Well no problem there but I do have 5 systems.

Quote:
You should be capable of overclocking later in the lifecycle should you desire.

It already does thank you 1.4 @ 1575

As I said before this system exist before me now, not on paper and the costs were accurate.... so then:

Quote:
I will modify my post with your AMD system's specifications and prices.

I believe that time has come Ray.



Video editing?? Ha, I don't even own a camera!
!