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Need a name for an undead god/atropal

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April 15, 2005 8:59:11 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

I need a name for an undead god from the ancient past which is basically an
atropal abomination from the Epic-Level Handbook.

The name itself needs to invoke dread, a sense of ancientness, and (if you'll
pardon the expression) a hint of eldritchness.

The best ones I've come up with (or nicked) so far are 'Ma"g' (umlaut-a),
'Xainu', and 'Annihilus'/'The Annihilus'.

I could do with one of these but if there's a better one someone can think of,
I'd appreciate it...
--

Matthias (matthias_mls@yahoo.com)

"Scientists tend to do philosophy about as well as you'd expect philosophers to
do science, the difference being that at least the philosophers usually *know*
when they're out of their depth."
-Jeff Heikkinen

More about : undead god atropal

Anonymous
April 15, 2005 8:59:12 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Matthias wrote:
> I need a name for an undead god from the ancient past which is
basically an
> atropal abomination from the Epic-Level Handbook.
>
> The name itself needs to invoke dread, a sense of ancientness, and
(if you'll
> pardon the expression) a hint of eldritchness.
>
> The best ones I've come up with (or nicked) so far are 'Ma"g'
(umlaut-a),
> 'Xainu', and 'Annihilus'/'The Annihilus'.
>
> I could do with one of these but if there's a better one someone can
think of,
> I'd appreciate it...

Xagodai or Xagonai. I've found that "ai" endings tend to evoke that
nice "ancient god" feeling.

Laszlo
Anonymous
April 15, 2005 9:45:03 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Matthias <matthias_mls@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I need a name for an undead god from the ancient past which is
> basically an atropal abomination from the Epic-Level Handbook.
>
> The name itself needs to invoke dread, a sense of ancientness, and (if
> you'll pardon the expression) a hint of eldritchness.
>
> The best ones I've come up with (or nicked) so far are 'Ma"g'
> (umlaut-a), 'Xainu', and 'Annihilus'/'The Annihilus'.

M\"ag would be pronounced like 'Maygg', yes?

Annihilus sounds like a comic book character. I don't think I'd use
that.

M\"ag or Xainu would both be better, I think. I lean toward Xainu,
myself.

Something I've seen done in Cthulhu-type stories is have multiple
reasonably close phonetic spellings of it. Not just because 'spelling
was largely a matter of opinion' back when, but because the human mouth
can only approximate the sound (if you can't *say* it properly, spelling
it properly is a bit more of a challenge).

> I could do with one of these but if there's a better one someone can
> think of, I'd appreciate it...

Things starting with 'Baal' seem to resonate with the feeling you're
looking for. If you add a sibilent to it...

How does "Baalshess" sound? With variants Palshis, Paalchess, Baalzhes,
etc.?

I've used Baalshamoth before. From an old campaign document:

"Baalshamoth is an evil god, dedicated to causing pain and disrupting
peace. Those who worship him must do so in secret. His rituals involve
blood sacrifice at the dark of the moon and twist the souls of those
taking part."


Keith
--
Keith Davies "Trying to sway him from his current kook-
keith.davies@kjdavies.org rant with facts is like trying to create
keith.davies@gmail.com a vacuum in a room by pushing the air
http://www.kjdavies.org/ out with your hands." -- Matt Frisch
Related resources
April 15, 2005 10:00:12 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Alien mind control rays made Matthias <matthias_mls@yahoo.com> write:
> I need a name for an undead god from the ancient past which is basically an
> atropal abomination from the Epic-Level Handbook.
>
> The name itself needs to invoke dread, a sense of ancientness, and (if you'll
> pardon the expression) a hint of eldritchness.

Gawz'lhin

--
\^\ // drow@bin.sh (CARRIER LOST) <http://www.bin.sh/&gt;
\ // - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
// \ X-Windows: A mistake carried out to perfection.
// \_\ -- Dude from DPAK
Anonymous
April 15, 2005 12:25:23 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Fri, 15 Apr 2005 04:59:11 GMT, Matthias <matthias_mls@yahoo.com> scribed
into the ether:

>I need a name for an undead god from the ancient past which is basically an
>atropal abomination from the Epic-Level Handbook.
>
>The name itself needs to invoke dread, a sense of ancientness, and (if you'll
>pardon the expression) a hint of eldritchness.

Michael Scott Brown.
Anonymous
April 15, 2005 12:56:18 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

I like stuff that ends in -dor, -goth or -groth.

Bel- and Baal- etc are good beginning sounds, as are Mor- and Dar-

Just don't over do it.

So, Bel-Dargagroth, Mor Belgagoth, Dar Dargoth, Morbaaldador, etc.
(IIRC, Morgoth and Mordor have been done :-)
Anonymous
April 15, 2005 1:09:44 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Fri, 15 Apr 2005 04:59:11 GMT, Matthias <matthias_mls@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>I need a name for an undead god from the ancient past which is basically an
>atropal abomination from the Epic-Level Handbook.
>
>The name itself needs to invoke dread, a sense of ancientness, and (if you'll
>pardon the expression) a hint of eldritchness.

Skolghast
April 15, 2005 1:36:39 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Fri, 15 Apr 2005 05:45:03 GMT, Keith Davies <keith.davies@kjdavies.org>
wrote:

>Matthias <matthias_mls@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> I need a name for an undead god from the ancient past which is
>> basically an atropal abomination from the Epic-Level Handbook.
>>
>> The name itself needs to invoke dread, a sense of ancientness, and (if
>> you'll pardon the expression) a hint of eldritchness.
>>
>> The best ones I've come up with (or nicked) so far are 'Ma"g'
>> (umlaut-a), 'Xainu', and 'Annihilus'/'The Annihilus'.
>
>M\"ag would be pronounced like 'Maygg', yes?

I had in mind M"ag rhyming with "bog", more or less. "Mag" wants to be read with
the same vowel as "bag" which is considerably less menacing.


>Annihilus sounds like a comic book character. I don't think I'd use
>that.
>
>M\"ag or Xainu would both be better, I think. I lean toward Xainu,
>myself.
>
>Something I've seen done in Cthulhu-type stories is have multiple
>reasonably close phonetic spellings of it. Not just because 'spelling
>was largely a matter of opinion' back when, but because the human mouth
>can only approximate the sound (if you can't *say* it properly, spelling
>it properly is a bit more of a challenge).

Multiple spellings is a good idea, especially in a multiethnic world that D&D
fosters. The humans will have their spelling, the elves will have theirs, the
dwarves will have theirs, and so on, and the pronounciations may be slightly
different as well but the name is more or less recognizably the same. Such as
the different forms of "George" or "Jesus" spanning different tongues.



>> I could do with one of these but if there's a better one someone can
>> think of, I'd appreciate it...
>
>Things starting with 'Baal' seem to resonate with the feeling you're
>looking for. If you add a sibilent to it...
>
>How does "Baalshess" sound? With variants Palshis, Paalchess, Baalzhes,
>etc.?
>
>I've used Baalshamoth before. From an old campaign document:
>
> "Baalshamoth is an evil god, dedicated to causing pain and disrupting
> peace. Those who worship him must do so in secret. His rituals involve
> blood sacrifice at the dark of the moon and twist the souls of those
> taking part."
>
>
>Keith


I figure I'll go with Xainu. It's pretty phonemically malleable.

--

Matthias (matthias_mls@yahoo.com)

"Scientists tend to do philosophy about as well as you'd expect philosophers to
do science, the difference being that at least the philosophers usually *know*
when they're out of their depth."
-Jeff Heikkinen
Anonymous
April 15, 2005 1:39:13 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Fri, 15 Apr 2005 04:59:11 +0000, Matthias wrote:

> I need a name for an undead god from the ancient past which is basically an
> atropal abomination from the Epic-Level Handbook.
>
> The name itself needs to invoke dread, a sense of ancientness, and (if you'll
> pardon the expression) a hint of eldritchness.
>
> The best ones I've come up with (or nicked) so far are 'Ma"g' (umlaut-a),
> 'Xainu', and 'Annihilus'/'The Annihilus'.

M"ag?

I would make it M"a"ag, a bit more wailing...
It remembers this sound as it's name, because it is it's own
birthcry - the only sound it heard for a long time.

LL
April 15, 2005 1:40:22 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

OVERVIEW

Xainu: from the Old Draconic word for "abomination", it became the proper name
of an ancient deity which once invaded the Prime Material plane, and was the
first to manifest bodily on the Prime since the Creation.

Xainu is commonly believed to have arisen as the undead remains of an aborted
divine offspring conceived in the rape of an unidentified female deity by one of
the male deities. The identity of the parents has throughout the history of the
world been a tightly-guarded secret, which no deity has admitted knowledge of
having, let alone offered to share with the mortal world. Many suspect even
today that the male deity in question was the orcish deity of fertility and
lust, who coincidentally has survived a number of concerted assassination
attempts by divine agents, the first attempt made not many decades after the
first rumors of the violation had begun to circulate.


HISTORY

Accounts differ regarding the rise of Xainu.

One series of legends holds that the infant deity had been stillborn, and that
the divine mother had secretly buried it at a location on her home plane. The
burial had been witnessed by a band of adventuring outsiders from the lower
planes who sold the information to a dark power, which then recovered the corpse
and raised it to undeath to use as a weapon of war. The undead deity wrested
free of its master's control during its first campaign on the Prime Material
plane.

Another series of legends has the infant deity being born live and in a state of
undeath because of the total opposition of alignments of the parents. The
abomination was exiled to the lowest layer of Pandemonium soon after its divine
mother had given birth. The undead deity escaped from Pandemonium and found its
way to the Prime Material.

All accounts of the history of the undead deity agree on the results of the
abomination being let loose on the Prime Material. Whole armies were destroyed
and cities levelled in mere days as the infant deity, having the mind of a child
but the intellect and ambition of a god, exerted its infantile will and
fulfilled every capricious desire over every people and country it encountered.
Most of the great noble patriarchs and matriarchs of all the dragon clans --
metallic, gem, and even chromatic -- were slaughtered by Xainu when of one
accord they confronted the god. Their decimation ensured the subsequent decline
of the race of dragons, and their earthly dominion over all other mortal
creatures has never recovered since.

The tenuous reign of the undead god persisted for twenty-three days before the
abomination was lured into a trap, contained, and subjugated by a cadre of the
gods themselves who chose to forgo their avatars and intervened directly,
bringing all of their divine might to bear. Though the presence of the naked
glory of several gods and goddessess in one place instantaneously slew the
thousands of mere mortals who looked upon them, their sacrifice was reckoned a
reasonable if tragic price to pay to save the lives (and souls) of millions. Not
since that time has any god been known to bodily visit the Prime Material plane.


PRONOUNCIATION

As the name of Xainu originates in Old Draconic, "X" in the Common script
represents a consonant in that tongue which is not easily reproducible in
humanoid speech; humanoids can best approximate it by trying to pronounce the sh
and kh sounds simultaneously. Words and proper nouns in Old Draconic with the
"X" consonant are usually transliterated in the Common script using sh, kh, or
shkh. Other humanoid tongues approximate this esoteric consonant with their
letters that represent one of the phonemes /sh/, /zh/, /kh/, or /k/ (and more
rarely, /s/, /z/, /h/ or /gh/).

The middle vowel of the Old Draconic name has a peculiar nasal quality to it in
Old Draconic which the humanoid linguists of old did not generally represent in
their transliteration; only the meticulous elven scholars persist in marking
those words borrowed from Old and Modern Draconic to represent this type of
nasal vowel. It is best described as a "deeper" nasalization in which a dragon
circulates the air through its furnace before exhaling the air past its vocal
cords and out through its esophagus, giving its speech the peculiar resonant
quality that makes the roar of a dragon seemingly supernatural in origin, which
most lesser creatures find terrifying in of itself.


OTHER NAMES FOR XAINU

The following are derivatives of the Old Draconic name "Xainu" from various
humanoid tongues and dialects: Zheno, Shannu, Zinu, Zaynus, Shayno, Zhen,
Sheenao, Hoinos, Zaan, Zeno, Khan, Ghewneh, Hazin (derived from "Ha-Zeni" in the
archaic language of the fey, where "ha" is an archaic honorific prefix of Sylvan
reserved for deities) ...

--

Matthias (matthias_mls@yahoo.com)

"Scientists tend to do philosophy about as well as you'd expect philosophers to
do science, the difference being that at least the philosophers usually *know*
when they're out of their depth."
-Jeff Heikkinen
April 15, 2005 1:42:40 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Fri, 15 Apr 2005 08:25:23 GMT, Matt Frisch <matuse73@yahoo.spam.me.not.com>
wrote:

>On Fri, 15 Apr 2005 04:59:11 GMT, Matthias <matthias_mls@yahoo.com> scribed
>into the ether:
>
>>I need a name for an undead god from the ancient past which is basically an
>>atropal abomination from the Epic-Level Handbook.
>>
>>The name itself needs to invoke dread, a sense of ancientness, and (if you'll
>>pardon the expression) a hint of eldritchness.
>
>Michael Scott Brown.

That's the name Xainu has been going by while it's slowly been working out how
make a comeback. :) 

--

Matthias (matthias_mls@yahoo.com)

"Scientists tend to do philosophy about as well as you'd expect philosophers to
do science, the difference being that at least the philosophers usually *know*
when they're out of their depth."
-Jeff Heikkinen
April 15, 2005 1:47:16 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Fri, 15 Apr 2005 09:39:13 +0200, "Lorenz Lang" <lang@netlife.invalid> wrote:

>On Fri, 15 Apr 2005 04:59:11 +0000, Matthias wrote:
>
>> I need a name for an undead god from the ancient past which is basically an
>> atropal abomination from the Epic-Level Handbook.
>>
>> The name itself needs to invoke dread, a sense of ancientness, and (if you'll
>> pardon the expression) a hint of eldritchness.
>>
>> The best ones I've come up with (or nicked) so far are 'Ma"g' (umlaut-a),
>> 'Xainu', and 'Annihilus'/'The Annihilus'.
>
>M"ag?
>
>I would make it M"a"ag, a bit more wailing...
>It remembers this sound as it's name, because it is it's own
>birthcry - the only sound it heard for a long time.

A wonderful explanation, that one. Let's say, then, that M"a"ag is its name for
itself. Only Xainu itself, or its few devoted followers, use its own name for
itself. This will all work very well. M"a"ag is probably secret information kept
by the Cult of Xainu.
--

Matthias (matthias_mls@yahoo.com)

"Scientists tend to do philosophy about as well as you'd expect philosophers to
do science, the difference being that at least the philosophers usually *know*
when they're out of their depth."
-Jeff Heikkinen
April 15, 2005 2:09:44 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

OTHER INFORMATION

* Xainu did not call itself "Xainu". It called itself Maag, and kept this name
as a secret unto itself and to its fledgeling personality cult. The elven sage
Laloren, one of the few non-believers who discovered of this "secret name" some
years after the "war of the gods", reckons that the deity chose this primitive
string of sounds as its name, because it was its own birthcry - the only sound
it heard for a long time.

* Even the gods have a law against permanent and irrevocable deicide.
Subjugation (usually by [temporary] destruction) and banishment from the
multiverse is the highest punishment that can be levied against a deity. This
"death penalty" has only been known by mortals to be applied twice before, both
times against deities which engaged in treason against their own pantheons or
the rulers thereof. Xainu was not (nor could it be) permanently destroyed, but
its already-regenerating undead remains were expelled bodily to the "Outside"
(that is, to the Far Realm).

* After thousands of years of wandering around the Far Realm, Xainu has found a
means by which it can sneak back into its home multiverse.

--

Matthias (matthias_mls@yahoo.com)

"Scientists tend to do philosophy about as well as you'd expect philosophers to
do science, the difference being that at least the philosophers usually *know*
when they're out of their depth."
-Jeff Heikkinen
Anonymous
April 15, 2005 5:44:58 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Fri, 15 Apr 2005 10:09:44 +0000, Matthias wrote:

> OTHER INFORMATION
>
> * Xainu did not call itself "Xainu". It called itself Maag, and kept this name
> as a secret unto itself and to its fledgeling personality cult. The elven sage
> Laloren, one of the few non-believers who discovered of this "secret name" some
> years after the "war of the gods", reckons that the deity chose this primitive
> string of sounds as its name, because it was its own birthcry - the only sound
> it heard for a long time.

Thank you very much, Matthias! I'm glad you like my idea.

LL
Anonymous
April 15, 2005 5:51:55 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Matthias" <matthias_mls@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:i1iu5152gfhg9mli5759km4jfjig7d17m1@4ax.com...
>I need a name for an undead god from the ancient past which is basically an
> atropal abomination from the Epic-Level Handbook.

K'asper

Or...

Buu'b Erhi
Anonymous
April 15, 2005 6:04:54 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Keith Davies <keith.davies@kjdavies.org> wrote:
> Matthias <matthias_mls@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> I need a name for an undead god from the ancient past which is
>> basically an atropal abomination from the Epic-Level Handbook.
>>
>> The name itself needs to invoke dread, a sense of ancientness, and (if
>> you'll pardon the expression) a hint of eldritchness.
>>
>> The best ones I've come up with (or nicked) so far are 'Ma"g'
>> (umlaut-a), 'Xainu', and 'Annihilus'/'The Annihilus'.
>
> Something I've seen done in Cthulhu-type stories is have multiple
> reasonably close phonetic spellings of it. Not just because 'spelling
> was largely a matter of opinion' back when, but because the human mouth
> can only approximate the sound (if you can't *say* it properly, spelling
> it properly is a bit more of a challenge).

Speaking of Cthulhu-type stories, if you really want to invoke a sense
of dread, ancientness and eldritchness, I'd go with a Lovecraftian
name. Take for example Bel-Shamharoth (sp?) in Terry Pratchett's
"The Colour of Magic". When I read that, I immediately know it's
something horrible, without even knowing what it's supposed to refer
to. Xainu reminds me more of scientological space princes than of
ancient eldritch horrors.

> I've used Baalshamoth before.

Excellent example. Refers to the ancient god Baal (mentioned in the bible,
and I seem to recall something about blood sacrifices?), but made a
bit more Lovecraftian. Add apostrophes and dashes to taste.
(Ba'al-shamoth)


mcv.
Anonymous
April 15, 2005 8:43:56 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Matthias <matthias_mls@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 15 Apr 2005 05:45:03 GMT, Keith Davies <keith.davies@kjdavies.org>
> wrote:
>
>>Matthias <matthias_mls@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> I need a name for an undead god from the ancient past which is
>>> basically an atropal abomination from the Epic-Level Handbook.
>>>
>>> The name itself needs to invoke dread, a sense of ancientness, and (if
>>> you'll pardon the expression) a hint of eldritchness.
>>>
>>> The best ones I've come up with (or nicked) so far are 'Ma"g'
>>> (umlaut-a), 'Xainu', and 'Annihilus'/'The Annihilus'.
>>
>>M\"ag would be pronounced like 'Maygg', yes?
>
> I had in mind M"ag rhyming with "bog", more or less. "Mag" wants to be
> read with the same vowel as "bag" which is considerably less menacing.

Ah, 'Maag'. 'M\"ag' I was pronouncing as German (where the umlaut makes
the 'A' the long 'ay' sound).

>>Annihilus sounds like a comic book character. I don't think I'd use
>>that.
>>
>>M\"ag or Xainu would both be better, I think. I lean toward Xainu,
>>myself.
>>
>>Something I've seen done in Cthulhu-type stories is have multiple
>>reasonably close phonetic spellings of it. Not just because 'spelling
>>was largely a matter of opinion' back when, but because the human mouth
>>can only approximate the sound (if you can't *say* it properly, spelling
>>it properly is a bit more of a challenge).
>
> Multiple spellings is a good idea, especially in a multiethnic world
> that D&D fosters. The humans will have their spelling, the elves will
> have theirs, the dwarves will have theirs, and so on, and the
> pronounciations may be slightly different as well but the name is more
> or less recognizably the same. Such as the different forms of "George"
> or "Jesus" spanning different tongues.

Something like, but I was thinking even within the same culture.
Between cultures it would be expected (as with various forms of common
names IRL -- you mentioned George and Jesus, but 'John' shows an
astonishing range if you know the derivations).

> I figure I'll go with Xainu. It's pretty phonemically malleable.

Sure, Xainu would work fine. It doesn't get the same immediate reaction
from me that Baal* does, but that's largely a recognition thing. I've
seen Baal* used in conjunction with demons, fallen or banished gods,
Cthulhu mythos...


Keith
--
Keith Davies "Trying to sway him from his current kook-
keith.davies@kjdavies.org rant with facts is like trying to create
keith.davies@gmail.com a vacuum in a room by pushing the air
http://www.kjdavies.org/ out with your hands." -- Matt Frisch
Anonymous
April 15, 2005 8:50:18 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

In article <425fca06$0$149$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>,
mcv <mcvmcv@xs4all.nl> wrote:
>Keith Davies <keith.davies@kjdavies.org> wrote:
>> I've used Baalshamoth before.
>
>Excellent example. Refers to the ancient god Baal (mentioned in the bible,
>and I seem to recall something about blood sacrifices?), but made a
>bit more Lovecraftian. Add apostrophes and dashes to taste.
>(Ba'al-shamoth)

Ba'al meant "Lord" in Caananite languages. There were several of them, but I
don't recall the specifics (except Baalzebul/Baalzebub).
--
"Yo' ideas need to be thinked befo' they are say'd" - Ian Lamb, age 3.5
http://www.cs.queensu.ca/~dalamb/ qucis->cs to reply (it's a long story...)
Anonymous
April 15, 2005 8:52:04 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

In article <nkuu51tkgar4nfllps25nggf29pnasg7ns@4ax.com>,
Matt Frisch <matuse73@yahoo.spam.me.not.com> wrote:
>On Fri, 15 Apr 2005 04:59:11 GMT, Matthias <matthias_mls@yahoo.com> scribed
>into the ether:
>
>>I need a name for an undead god from the ancient past which is basically an
>>atropal abomination from the Epic-Level Handbook.
>>
>>The name itself needs to invoke dread, a sense of ancientness, and (if you'll
>>pardon the expression) a hint of eldritchness.
>
>Michael Scott Brown.

Drow got there first, with a slightly more subtle variant.
--
"Yo' ideas need to be thinked befo' they are say'd" - Ian Lamb, age 3.5
http://www.cs.queensu.ca/~dalamb/ qucis->cs to reply (it's a long story...)
April 15, 2005 10:06:25 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Matthias" <matthias_mls@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:i1iu5152gfhg9mli5759km4jfjig7d17m1@4ax.com...
>I need a name for an undead god from the ancient past which is basically an
> atropal abomination from the Epic-Level Handbook.

The Dark.

Na'dir
April 15, 2005 11:07:05 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Matthias wrote:
> I need a name for an undead god from the ancient past which is basically an
> atropal abomination from the Epic-Level Handbook.
>
> The name itself needs to invoke dread, a sense of ancientness, and (if you'll
> pardon the expression) a hint of eldritchness.
>
> The best ones I've come up with (or nicked) so far are 'Ma"g' (umlaut-a),
> 'Xainu', and 'Annihilus'/'The Annihilus'.
>
> I could do with one of these but if there's a better one someone can think of,
> I'd appreciate it...
> --
>
> Matthias (matthias_mls@yahoo.com)
>
> "Scientists tend to do philosophy about as well as you'd expect philosophers to
> do science, the difference being that at least the philosophers usually *know*
> when they're out of their depth."
> -Jeff Heikkinen


Nedu , Lord of Dispair.
Anonymous
April 16, 2005 2:40:07 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Matt Frisch <matuse73@yahoo.spam.me.not.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 15 Apr 2005 04:59:11 GMT, Matthias <matthias_mls@yahoo.com> scribed
> into the ether:
>
>>I need a name for an undead god from the ancient past which is
>>basically an atropal abomination from the Epic-Level Handbook.
>>
>>The name itself needs to invoke dread, a sense of ancientness, and (if
>>you'll pardon the expression) a hint of eldritchness.
>
> Michael Scott Brown.

Emessbee?

Sounds yuan-tiish


Keith
--
Keith Davies "Trying to sway him from his current kook-
keith.davies@kjdavies.org rant with facts is like trying to create
keith.davies@gmail.com a vacuum in a room by pushing the air
http://www.kjdavies.org/ out with your hands." -- Matt Frisch
April 16, 2005 5:00:11 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Fri, 15 Apr 2005 13:44:58 +0200, "Lorenz Lang" <lang@netlife.invalid> wrote:

>On Fri, 15 Apr 2005 10:09:44 +0000, Matthias wrote:
>
>> OTHER INFORMATION
>>
>> * Xainu did not call itself "Xainu". It called itself Maag, and kept this name
>> as a secret unto itself and to its fledgeling personality cult. The elven sage
>> Laloren, one of the few non-believers who discovered of this "secret name" some
>> years after the "war of the gods", reckons that the deity chose this primitive
>> string of sounds as its name, because it was its own birthcry - the only sound
>> it heard for a long time.
>
>Thank you very much, Matthias! I'm glad you like my idea.
>
>LL

Hope the plaigarism isn't too obvious. :) 

--

Matthias (matthias_mls@yahoo.com)

"Scientists tend to do philosophy about as well as you'd expect philosophers to
do science, the difference being that at least the philosophers usually *know*
when they're out of their depth."
-Jeff Heikkinen
Anonymous
April 16, 2005 7:50:54 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

mcv wrote:
> Keith Davies <keith.davies@kjdavies.org> wrote:
>
>>Matthias <matthias_mls@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>I need a name for an undead god from the ancient past which is
>>>basically an atropal abomination from the Epic-Level Handbook.
>>>
>>>The name itself needs to invoke dread, a sense of ancientness, and (if
>>>you'll pardon the expression) a hint of eldritchness.
>>>
>>>The best ones I've come up with (or nicked) so far are 'Ma"g'
>>>(umlaut-a), 'Xainu', and 'Annihilus'/'The Annihilus'.
>>
>>Something I've seen done in Cthulhu-type stories is have multiple
>>reasonably close phonetic spellings of it. Not just because 'spelling
>>was largely a matter of opinion' back when, but because the human mouth
>>can only approximate the sound (if you can't *say* it properly, spelling
>>it properly is a bit more of a challenge).
>
>
> Speaking of Cthulhu-type stories, if you really want to invoke a sense
> of dread, ancientness and eldritchness, I'd go with a Lovecraftian
> name. Take for example Bel-Shamharoth (sp?) in Terry Pratchett's
> "The Colour of Magic". When I read that, I immediately know it's
> something horrible, without even knowing what it's supposed to refer
> to. Xainu reminds me more of scientological space princes than of
> ancient eldritch horrors.
>
>
>>I've used Baalshamoth before.
>
>
> Excellent example. Refers to the ancient god Baal (mentioned in the bible,
> and I seem to recall something about blood sacrifices?), but made a
> bit more Lovecraftian. Add apostrophes and dashes to taste.
> (Ba'al-shamoth)
>
>
> mcv.

Not just the Bible (which Bible?) but old Jewish mysticism is rife with
names that sound
eerie and vaguely threatening. Pick a few of the lesser known ones and
test them out. I
always liked "Sabaoth," also spelled "Tsabaoth," even though technically
that's one of the
good angels in the Ophitic system. However, "Sabaoth Adamas" is an evil
power in some
works, such as the Coptic system, so take your pick.

Or, as the kid says in "Terminator 2," you can do combos. Take a nice
angelic name like
Rahab (who is actually an interesting candidate for an undead god, see
Gustav Davidson's
"A Dictionary of Angels"), mix in a little Babylonian (Nergal) and a
couple of odd consonants
and you might end up with something like Rauxhernugal.
Anonymous
April 17, 2005 5:25:19 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Some Guy <someguy@thedoor.gov> wrote:
> mcv wrote:
>> Keith Davies <keith.davies@kjdavies.org> wrote:
>>
>>>I've used Baalshamoth before.
>>
>> Excellent example. Refers to the ancient god Baal (mentioned in the bible,
>> and I seem to recall something about blood sacrifices?), but made a
>> bit more Lovecraftian. Add apostrophes and dashes to taste.
>> (Ba'al-shamoth)
>
> Not just the Bible (which Bible?) but old Jewish mysticism is rife with
> names that sound
> eerie and vaguely threatening. Pick a few of the lesser known ones and
> test them out. I
> always liked "Sabaoth," also spelled "Tsabaoth," even though technically
> that's one of the
> good angels in the Ophitic system. However, "Sabaoth Adamas" is an evil
> power in some
> works, such as the Coptic system, so take your pick.

As far as I know, "sabaoth" means "host" or "army", generally of angels.
So it's not a specific angel.


mcv.
Anonymous
April 17, 2005 5:25:20 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

mcv wrote:
> Some Guy <someguy@thedoor.gov> wrote:
>
>>mcv wrote:
>>
>>>Keith Davies <keith.davies@kjdavies.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>I've used Baalshamoth before.
>>>
>>>Excellent example. Refers to the ancient god Baal (mentioned in the bible,
>>>and I seem to recall something about blood sacrifices?), but made a
>>>bit more Lovecraftian. Add apostrophes and dashes to taste.
>>>(Ba'al-shamoth)
>>
>>Not just the Bible (which Bible?) but old Jewish mysticism is rife with
>>names that sound
>>eerie and vaguely threatening. Pick a few of the lesser known ones and
>>test them out. I
>>always liked "Sabaoth," also spelled "Tsabaoth," even though technically
>>that's one of the
>>good angels in the Ophitic system. However, "Sabaoth Adamas" is an evil
>>power in some
>>works, such as the Coptic system, so take your pick.
>
>
> As far as I know, "sabaoth" means "host" or "army", generally of angels.
> So it's not a specific angel.
>
>
> mcv.

According to the aforementioned Mr. Davidson, Sabaoth means "hosts," but
is also
the specific name of one of the seven archons, creators of the universe.
Sabaoth is
also known as Tsabaoth or Ibraoth.

Sabaoth Adamas, in "The Texts of the Saviour," is an evil power and
ruler of the wicked
aeons; he is also mentioned in the Coptic "Pistis Sophia."
Anonymous
April 18, 2005 6:43:50 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Matthias" <matthias_mls@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:i1iu5152gfhg9mli5759km4jfjig7d17m1@4ax.com...
> I need a name for an undead god from the ancient past which is basically
an
> atropal abomination from the Epic-Level Handbook.
>
> The name itself needs to invoke dread, a sense of ancientness, and (if
you'll
> pardon the expression) a hint of eldritchness.
>
> The best ones I've come up with (or nicked) so far are 'Ma"g'
(umlaut-a),
> 'Xainu', and 'Annihilus'/'The Annihilus'.
>
> I could do with one of these but if there's a better one someone can
think of,
> I'd appreciate it...

Nigel.
Anonymous
April 19, 2005 7:17:08 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Matthias <matthias_mls@yahoo.com> wrote:
> A wonderful explanation, that one. Let's say, then, that M"a"ag is its
> name for itself. Only Xainu itself, or its few devoted followers, use
> its own name for itself. This will all work very well. M"a"ag is
> probably secret information kept by the Cult of Xainu.

Määg is a horrible abuse of umlauts, and will probably be mispronounced
by just about everyone.
--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd
Anonymous
April 19, 2005 1:23:07 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

In article <slrnd68u1j.hf8.bradd+news@szonye.com>,
Bradd W. Szonye <bradd+news@szonye.com> wrote:
>Matthias <matthias_mls@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> A wonderful explanation, that one. Let's say, then, that M"a"ag is its
>> name for itself. Only Xainu itself, or its few devoted followers, use
>> its own name for itself. This will all work very well. M"a"ag is
>> probably secret information kept by the Cult of Xainu.
>
>Määg is a horrible abuse of umlauts, and will probably be mispronounced
>by just about everyone.

Maybe I'm misremembering the "a sound, but IIRC M"a"ag would be pronounced a
lot like Da'an, one of the Taelons in Earth: Final Conflict.
--
"Yo' ideas need to be thinked befo' they are say'd" - Ian Lamb, age 3.5
http://www.cs.queensu.ca/~dalamb/ qucis->cs to reply (it's a long story...)
Anonymous
April 19, 2005 9:08:55 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Matthias wrote:
> I need a name for an undead god from the ancient past which is
basically an
> atropal abomination from the Epic-Level Handbook.
>
> The name itself needs to invoke dread, a sense of ancientness, and
(if you'll
> pardon the expression) a hint of eldritchness.
>
> The best ones I've come up with (or nicked) so far are 'Ma"g'
(umlaut-a),
> 'Xainu', and 'Annihilus'/'The Annihilus'.
>
> I could do with one of these but if there's a better one someone can
think of,
> I'd appreciate it...
> --
>

I always like double vowels like in Chuul and Slaad. Never can figure
out how they are pronounced :) . how about using both and combining
them into something vaguely undead sounding...

Nuulchraam.

On the other hand one of the most memorable evil dudes I ever had in my
game went by the name Ghuumbee.

- Justisaur
Anonymous
April 19, 2005 9:47:53 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Justisaur wrote:
> Matthias wrote:
>
>>I need a name for an undead god from the ancient past which is
>
> basically an
>
>>atropal abomination from the Epic-Level Handbook.
>>
>>The name itself needs to invoke dread, a sense of ancientness, and
>
> (if you'll
>
>>pardon the expression) a hint of eldritchness.
>>
>>The best ones I've come up with (or nicked) so far are 'Ma"g'
>
> (umlaut-a),
>
>>'Xainu', and 'Annihilus'/'The Annihilus'.
>>
>>I could do with one of these but if there's a better one someone can
>
> think of,
>
>>I'd appreciate it...
>>--
>>
>
>
> I always like double vowels like in Chuul and Slaad. Never can figure
> out how they are pronounced :) . how about using both and combining
> them into something vaguely undead sounding...
>
> Nuulchraam.
>
> On the other hand one of the most memorable evil dudes I ever had in my
> game went by the name Ghuumbee.
>
> - Justisaur
>

Think low, gutteral sounds: "Uoom," "Vurg," etc.
Anonymous
April 19, 2005 10:39:03 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Bradd wrote:
>> Määg is a horrible abuse of umlauts, and will probably be
>> mispronounced by just about everyone.

David Alex Lamb wrote:
> Maybe I'm misremembering the "a sound, but IIRC M"a"ag would be
> pronounced a lot like Da'an, one of the Taelons in Earth: Final
> Conflict.

In English, the diaresis indicates that a vowel should be pronounced as
a separate syllable. It should only appear over the second vowel. In
German, it indicates a change in vowel shape, such that /ä/ sounds the
same as /e/. It should normally only appear over the first vowel. (A few
other languages use umlauts/diaresis, but I don't remember the
pronunciation rules for them.)

If it were "Maäg" an English speaker would say "Muh-agg." If it were
"Mäag" a German speaker would probably say "May-ogg." As "Määg" I'd be
inclined to say "Mague" (rhymes with "mage" but with a hard G), but it
isn't quite proper spelling for any language.
--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd
Anonymous
April 19, 2005 11:36:06 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Bradd W. Szonye <bradd+news@szonye.com> wrote:
> Bradd wrote:
>>> Määg is a horrible abuse of umlauts, and will probably be
>>> mispronounced by just about everyone.
>
> David Alex Lamb wrote:
>> Maybe I'm misremembering the "a sound, but IIRC M"a"ag would be
>> pronounced a lot like Da'an, one of the Taelons in Earth: Final
>> Conflict.
>
> In English, the diaresis indicates that a vowel should be pronounced as
> a separate syllable. It should only appear over the second vowel. In
> German, it indicates a change in vowel shape, such that /ä/ sounds the
> same as /e/. It should normally only appear over the first vowel. (A few
> other languages use umlauts/diaresis, but I don't remember the
> pronunciation rules for them.)
>
> If it were "Maäg" an English speaker would say "Muh-agg." If it were
> "Mäag" a German speaker would probably say "May-ogg." As "Määg" I'd be
> inclined to say "Mague" (rhymes with "mage" but with a hard G), but it
> isn't quite proper spelling for any language.

In some languages consecutive vowels are each pronounced. In theory, at
least; they often get run together or change sound.

Japanese:

'Kawaii' is four syllables. Officially. 'Ka-wa-i-i'. In reality,
it's actually pronounced more like 'Ka-wa-ii' (the two 'ee' sounds for
the 'i's run together).

'Mai' is two syllables, 'Ma-i'. Again, officially -- 'really' it's
pronounced 'My' -- the syllables run together.

German:

IIRC. *Every* letter gets pronounced, even if it means turning your
tongue inside out. Upside: if you can say it, you can spell it.
As such, I think that 'theoretically' consecutive vowels are each
pronounced, but have since blurred together.

It's been longer since I've thought about German than thought about
Japanese, though. I could well be misremembering.

In any case, when I see umlauts I think 'Germanic' rather than
'English', which is why I figured 'M\"ag' would be pronounced 'Mague'
rather than 'Maag'.


Keith
--
Keith Davies "Trying to sway him from his current kook-
keith.davies@kjdavies.org rant with facts is like trying to create
keith.davies@gmail.com a vacuum in a room by pushing the air
http://www.kjdavies.org/ out with your hands." -- Matt Frisch
Anonymous
April 19, 2005 11:36:07 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Keith Davies wrote:

> German:
>
> IIRC. *Every* letter gets pronounced, even if it means turning your
> tongue inside out. Upside: if you can say it, you can spell it.
> As such, I think that 'theoretically' consecutive vowels are each
> pronounced, but have since blurred together.
>
> It's been longer since I've thought about German than thought about
> Japanese, though. I could well be misremembering.

In German, just like in English, you have vowel combos that only carry
the pronunciation
of one of the vowels: "lieben" is pronounced "leeben," "bleistift" is
"pronounced "bl(eye)stift)" and so on. Letters
with umlauts are actually different letters, with different
proununciations. Thus, the German
word "schwul" is pronounced differently than the German word "schwül".
Anonymous
April 20, 2005 3:58:46 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Some Guy <someguy@thedoor.gov> wrote:
> Keith Davies wrote:
>
>> German:
>>
>> IIRC. *Every* letter gets pronounced, even if it means turning your
>> tongue inside out. Upside: if you can say it, you can spell it.
>> As such, I think that 'theoretically' consecutive vowels are each
>> pronounced, but have since blurred together.
>>
>> It's been longer since I've thought about German than thought about
>> Japanese, though. I could well be misremembering.
>
> In German, just like in English, you have vowel combos that only carry
> the pronunciation of one of the vowels: "lieben" is pronounced
> "leeben," "bleistift" is "pronounced "bl(eye)stift)" and so on.
> Letters with umlauts are actually different letters, with different
> proununciations. Thus, the German word "schwul" is pronounced
> differently than the German word "schwül".

Ah, so vowels are treated differently than consonants. I couldn't
remember -- it's been >10 years now.


Keith
--
Keith Davies "Trying to sway him from his current kook-
keith.davies@kjdavies.org rant with facts is like trying to create
keith.davies@gmail.com a vacuum in a room by pushing the air
http://www.kjdavies.org/ out with your hands." -- Matt Frisch
Anonymous
April 20, 2005 3:58:47 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Keith Davies wrote:
> Some Guy <someguy@thedoor.gov> wrote:
>
>>Keith Davies wrote:
>>
>>
>>>German:
>>>
>>> IIRC. *Every* letter gets pronounced, even if it means turning your
>>> tongue inside out. Upside: if you can say it, you can spell it.
>>> As such, I think that 'theoretically' consecutive vowels are each
>>> pronounced, but have since blurred together.
>>>
>>> It's been longer since I've thought about German than thought about
>>> Japanese, though. I could well be misremembering.
>>
>>In German, just like in English, you have vowel combos that only carry
>>the pronunciation of one of the vowels: "lieben" is pronounced
>>"leeben," "bleistift" is "pronounced "bl(eye)stift)" and so on.
>>Letters with umlauts are actually different letters, with different
>>proununciations. Thus, the German word "schwul" is pronounced
>>differently than the German word "schwül".
>
>
> Ah, so vowels are treated differently than consonants. I couldn't
> remember -- it's been >10 years now.
>
>
> Keith

It's ben 20+ years for me, but I do remember some things. That's one of
them.

Well, and the swear words too, of course.
Anonymous
April 20, 2005 5:00:37 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Some Guy <someguy@thedoor.gov> wrote:
>> In German, just like in English, you have vowel combos that only
>> carry the pronunciation of one of the vowels: "lieben" is pronounced
>> "leeben," "bleistift" is "pronounced "bl(eye)stift)" and so on.
>> Letters with umlauts are actually different letters, with different
>> proununciations. Thus, the German word "schwul" is pronounced
>> differently than the German word "schwül".

Keith Davies wrote:
> Ah, so vowels are treated differently than consonants. I couldn't
> remember -- it's been >10 years now.

Yes, there are two major kinds of vowel combinations in German:
diphthongs and lengtheners. The diphthongs produce a modified sound, and
the lengtheners make a vowel long when it would otherwise be short
(i.e., when followed by a double consonant).

The diphthongs are ai/ei (eye), au (ow), and äu/eu/oi (oy). Length is
usually indicated by doubling a vowel (aa, ee, oo) or adding an H (ah,
eh, ih, oh, uh). The vowels I and U are rarely doubled except in loan
words; I is normally lengthened by adding an E (ie).

The Ö and Ü umlauts have unique sounds, but Ä is pronounced exactly like
the German letter E (i.e., rhymes with "wet" when short, "weight" when
long). Doubled umlauts are not normal in German spelling; like U, you'd
normally add length with an H (äh, öh, üh).

Therefore, Määg would be better spelled Mähg (or just Mäg, since it's
not followed by a double consonant). And in any case, you'd pronounce
that "mague," not "mogg."
--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd
April 20, 2005 6:55:41 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 18:39:03 GMT, "Bradd W. Szonye" <bradd+news@szonye.com>
wrote:

>In English, the diaresis indicates that a vowel should be pronounced as
>a separate syllable. It should only appear over the second vowel. In
>German, it indicates a change in vowel shape, such that /ä/ sounds the
>same as /e/. It should normally only appear over the first vowel. (A few
>other languages use umlauts/diaresis, but I don't remember the
>pronunciation rules for them.)
>
>If it were "Maäg" an English speaker would say "Muh-agg." If it were
>"Mäag" a German speaker would probably say "May-ogg." As "Määg" I'd be
>inclined to say "Mague" (rhymes with "mage" but with a hard G), but it
>isn't quite proper spelling for any language.

A dieresis over the letter 'a' in English pronunciation can also indicate the
'a' is pronounced like the one in "father"; it's this usage I had in mind. An
example of this can be found here:

http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/pronunc...



--

Matthias (matthias_mls@yahoo.com)

"Scientists tend to do philosophy about as well as you'd expect philosophers to
do science, the difference being that at least the philosophers usually *know*
when they're out of their depth."
-Jeff Heikkinen
Anonymous
April 20, 2005 1:09:34 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Bradd wrote:
>> If it were "Maäg" an English speaker would say "Muh-agg." If it were
>> "Mäag" a German speaker would probably say "May-ogg." As "Määg" I'd
>> be inclined to say "Mague" (rhymes with "mage" but with a hard G),
>> but it isn't quite proper spelling for any language.

Matthias wrote:
> A dieresis over the letter 'a' in English pronunciation can also
> indicate the 'a' is pronounced like the one in "father"; it's this
> usage I had in mind. An example of this can be found here:
>
> http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/pronunc...

The diaresis is only used to indicate the long continental A sound in
phonetic alphabets (like the one on that page), never in conventional
English spelling. In English text, a diaresis always indicates a
separate syllable, nothing more.
--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd
April 21, 2005 3:49:58 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 09:09:34 GMT, "Bradd W. Szonye" <bradd+news@szonye.com>
wrote:

>Bradd wrote:
>>> If it were "Maäg" an English speaker would say "Muh-agg." If it were
>>> "Mäag" a German speaker would probably say "May-ogg." As "Määg" I'd
>>> be inclined to say "Mague" (rhymes with "mage" but with a hard G),
>>> but it isn't quite proper spelling for any language.
>
>Matthias wrote:
>> A dieresis over the letter 'a' in English pronunciation can also
>> indicate the 'a' is pronounced like the one in "father"; it's this
>> usage I had in mind. An example of this can be found here:
>>
>> http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/pronunc...
>
>The diaresis is only used to indicate the long continental A sound in
>phonetic alphabets (like the one on that page), never in conventional
>English spelling. In English text, a diaresis always indicates a
>separate syllable, nothing more.

It was the pronunciation I was going for ... Mag (without the dieresis) doesn't
have the right one. But the 'true' spelling of the name should be Maag or Mahg,
though.

--

Matthias (matthias_mls@yahoo.com)

"Scientists tend to do philosophy about as well as you'd expect philosophers to
do science, the difference being that at least the philosophers usually *know*
when they're out of their depth."
-Jeff Heikkinen
Anonymous
April 21, 2005 4:11:42 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Bradd wrote:
>> The diaresis is only used to indicate the long continental A sound in
>> phonetic alphabets (like the one on that page), never in conventional
>> English spelling. In English text, a diaresis always indicates a
>> separate syllable, nothing more.

Matthias wrote:
> It was the pronunciation I was going for ... Mag (without the
> dieresis) doesn't have the right one ....

It doesn't have that pronunciation with a diaresis, either.

> But the 'true' spelling of the name should be Maag or Mahg, though.

If you want it to rhyme with "bog," that's the best way to spell it.
--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd
April 22, 2005 3:34:55 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 00:11:42 GMT, "Bradd W. Szonye" <bradd+news@szonye.com>
wrote:

>Bradd wrote:
>>> The diaresis is only used to indicate the long continental A sound in
>>> phonetic alphabets (like the one on that page), never in conventional
>>> English spelling. In English text, a diaresis always indicates a
>>> separate syllable, nothing more.
>
>Matthias wrote:
>> It was the pronunciation I was going for ... Mag (without the
>> dieresis) doesn't have the right one ....
>
>It doesn't have that pronunciation with a diaresis, either.

Well, as long as the intended pronunciation was (eventually) communicated.


>> But the 'true' spelling of the name should be Maag or Mahg, though.
>
>If you want it to rhyme with "bog," that's the best way to spell it.

I agree.
--

Matthias (matthias_mls@yahoo.com)

"Scientists tend to do philosophy about as well as you'd expect philosophers to
do science, the difference being that at least the philosophers usually *know*
when they're out of their depth."
-Jeff Heikkinen
!