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P4 and temprature

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Anonymous
a b à CPUs
October 6, 2001 4:45:09 PM

When the P4 reaches a certain temprature its clock rate goes down in order to cool the processor, right?
What I need to know is what temp. is that?
I got my new system with a 1.5 P4 I am using the standard Intel hsf along with a case fan.

Another question, the Intel active monitor isn't giving me the fan rpm. Also it gives some strange readings, for example,
when idle the processor is about 37c, sys zone1 60, sys zone2 35.
At 100% the processor goes to 70c!

Note : I ran the cpu at 100% for sometime, the temp that time raised to 68 I monitored the clock speed using wcpuid and it stayed around 1500 mhz.

More about : temprature

October 6, 2001 5:55:12 PM

the Intel Active monitor could be possibly wrong, as the Asus Probe sometimes is. The board has two thermal sensors placed on key positions on the board that sense the temperature, but I dont know which is Zone 1 and which is Zone 2, and just that higher temp means trouble!

If on load the monitor is giving 70 degrees, its probably wrong. I dint believe Dr. Tom's report on processor heat testing in which Intel chips stayed and AMD's toasted. I am writing a separate report on that experiment.

Actually, Pentium4 has this feature called Thermal throttle, which makes it switch to slower clock as much as 50% when the processor temperature reaches certain limit. i bet 70 isnt the limit, it should be much lower.

This thermal throttling has an interesting effect, a bug or a feature depends on the point of view. When it is under load, that is you need that 1.5 GHz and it overheats it will throttle itself down to 750 MHz when you need it most. On the other hand, it will let you do the light load jobs like surfing, typing and doing data entry at its full 1500 MHz!!! what is this feature for???

Probabely Intel assumed that everybody will run the P4 with the fan shut down and/or the Heat sink taken off so it made the processor virtually indestructible. Or did they assume the fans that will go into P4 systems couldnt be relied upon. Actually a report said that Intel purposely declared the power consumption of the P4 about 25% lower than actual which is about 110W+ maybe to counter the Athlon Palomino power requirements that are just 54W, and that led HSF makers to make their units inadequate for P4. The Intel stock fan is an example.

I would have two steps towards your problem:
1. The Active monitor is probabely bad, did you install the Intel inf update before installing any drivers? it will update the system about all the newer Intel chips on the board, which includes the hardware that actually monitors the temperatures and fans. if not, do that and reinstall Active monitor.
anyway, try reinstalling active monitor. or try some other software like MBM (Motherboard Monitor) which may give proper results.

2. get a better HSF. the stock fan is simply inadequate. try one more case fan.

girish

<font color=red>No system is fool-proof. Fools are Ingenious!</font color=red>
October 6, 2001 8:08:09 PM

>When it is under load, that is you need that 1.5 GHz and it overheats it will throttle itself down to 750 MHz when you need it most. On the other hand, it will let you do the light load jobs like surfing, typing and doing data entry at its full 1500 MHz!!! what is this featur for???

girish, it would seem that you have no understanding of Intel's thermal throttling mechanism for the Pentium 4.

first of all: the original posters P4 will run at 1500HHz all the time! it will NEVER throttle down while it is running in ideal conditions.

second, the P4 will only throttle down when inadequate cooling is used, which usually never happens.

most likely you've got your info from Bert McComas or Van Smith, well all of their theories and assumptions were proven wrong! Van Smith admits his haste and does not speak about P4 throttling anymore, he has quit Inquest and started Vanshardware.com

so, for the 1000th time the P4 does not throttle down while running intensive applications! this is a myth, a Van Smith/Inquest FUD attack!

"<b>AMD/VIA!</b>...you are <i>still</i> the weakest link, good bye!"
Related resources
October 6, 2001 10:15:17 PM

He was just describing the feature meltdown, he didnt slam it.

~Matisaro~
"The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark"
~Tbird1.3@1.5~
October 7, 2001 3:56:04 AM

I dont know Matisaro. I think your a really a Zealot. When i claim the Radeon 8500 can match the GF3 Ti500 you bashed and abused me. When i prove my point you dont reply and bash away in the CPU section.

Well i have no respect for you now. You dont prove respect too me you earn it over time. It pissed me off alot after bashing bashing you try to rip me apart on the Radeon 8500 issue. there is a thread where you aimed it at me.

Well i think you worse as meltdown.

Nice Nvidia and ATi users get a Cookie.... :smile: Yummy :smile:
October 7, 2001 8:03:51 AM

What the hell are you talking about rcf. I post in the cpu forum at work, and hit the graphics forum every other day, I have a schedule. I will get to your post in good time.

I am not a zealot, if you think that by my posting LINKS TO BENCHMARKS, and making NO COMMENT on them is the act of a zealot, then you are the zealot.
I have never bashed and abused you btw.

The thread I "aimed" at you, was in regards to your recent posts decent into trolldom, a thought I may add which was echoed by many. I had hoped you would stop posting so many radeon this and radeon that troll posts, and for a time you did. Apparently you are back in full force.
I have never tried to rip you apart on the radeon8500 issue, I have never DEBATED the radeon8500 issue. If my reminding you that there are no final benchmarks of finished radeon8500's (therefore it is too early to say conclusivly which videocard is better) is what you consider ripping into you, then I am sorry for your twisted view of reality.

Quote:
Well i think you worse as meltdown

Ok juin, whatever you say.

~Matisaro~
"The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark"
~Tbird1.3@1.5~
October 7, 2001 8:13:53 AM

Its like you dont know anything about Amd so what your problem
October 7, 2001 8:54:43 AM

if it usually never happens meltdown then why slam amd for having their chips have inadequate thermal throtteling? and anyway tom has gone all intel (to my great regret) not offering a single amd setup in the potential upgrade section...

if in doubt blame microsoft...
October 7, 2001 8:59:42 AM

For what it's worth, I haven't seen one post from Matisaro that I consider to be trolling.

"Ignorance is bliss, but I tend to get screwed over."
October 7, 2001 10:46:15 AM

thermal throttling only occurs if somthing drastic happens that may threaten the integrity of the processor, i.e. HSF fan failing or heatsink falling off.

an excellent design that AMD should takeup.

Religious wars are 2 groups of people fighting over who has the best imaginary friend.
October 7, 2001 1:53:03 PM

Thanks mr random(I appreciate it and try to help out and contribute to the discussions I read on this fine forum, and I enjoy positive feedback). I dont know what crawled up rcf's ass, but hes been all over the boards mad at me for some reason.

~Matisaro~
"The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark"
~Tbird1.3@1.5~
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
October 7, 2001 5:28:24 PM

I don't give a f*ck who is better!
OK, I agree, AMD makes the best processors in the world, but I simply don't care I have the P4 and I am happy with it. So if you have anything useful to say then please say it, otherwise start your rant elsewhere!

BTW, thermal throttling *is* a feature, at least I see it that way! I prefer a slow processor to an expensive key chain.

So does any one ehre know at what temp the throtling kicks in? And why Intel active monitor is so strange?

I uninstlled it, reinstalled it again and the same results...no fan RPM and the temps are exactly the same!

MBM, wasn't any more useful, all the temps are zeros.

So what do you think?
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
October 7, 2001 6:37:42 PM

I think that the Thermal spec is 76C and that Thermal Management doesn't kick in until (IIRC) is well over 70C.

Check out the P4 Data Sheet for a exact numbers (varies depending on model and MHZ)http://developer.intel.com/design/pentium4/datashts/

Some have been running it well over 65C and it still never throttled.

Your temps are high though. Whats your system details? Computer case, Mobo, Graphiccard etc

1) Intel® Active Monitor you can download the latest version of AM and find additional help, troubleshooting Tips.
http://channel.intel.com/business/ibp/boards/software/a...
2) Does the cpu fan work?
3) Does the HSF mount properly? The heatsink may not have adequate thermal grease?
4) "Room's ambient temperature should be below 90 °F (32 °C). One or more of the system's fans have slowed or stopped, reducing airflow to the system.
Dust has accumulated in your system, reducing airflow to the system."
5) Faulty psu maybe giving out a bad voltage? Try also unplugging and reconnecting (all) psu leads.
7) Strip machine down to minimum.. just gfx, mem, psu, and hd. Try again.


The good news is that if you experiance clock throttling you will simply get reduced performance until you correct the problem. The chance of getting a burnt CPU is small if none from a bad installed heatsink/fan, dust clogge low-cost OEM heatsink and a CPU fan that is clogged by dust, a hot day (40c) bad air case flow + faulty fan etc.

Here is one article at Toms where he did a test removing the heatsink entirely http://www4.tomshardware.com/cpu/01q3/010917/heatvideo-...
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
October 7, 2001 8:36:46 PM

I looked into Intel documents before, and didn't get any specifics...I looked again now and here is what I found,
Once
"automatic mode is enabled, the TCC will activate only when the internal die temperature is very
near the temperature limits of the processor."
TCC is the thing that causes the processor to slow down.

So still no specific temp!
However I also found,
"Regardless of enabling of the automatic or On-Demand
modes, in the event of a catastrophic cooling failure, the processor will automatically shut down
when the silicon has reached a temperature of approximately 135 °C. At this point the system bus
signal THERMTRIP# will go active and stay active until the processor has cooled down and
RESET# has been initiated. THERMTRIP# activation is independent of processor activity and
does not generate any bus cycles."
!!!!!!!!!!
So does this mean that the critical temp is 135c?


Also my both fans are working properly, and the system is only a week old so there is no dust in there.
I already tested with the latest version of IAA.
I checked the connections of the heat sink, the fan and the PSU...all are firmly attached.

I read elsewhere that the standard HSF from Intel are more than enough for the P4 if not overclocked.

So if anyone can search the Intel documents better than me, my processor is the 1.5 in the 423 pins package 1.7 Volts.
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
October 7, 2001 10:31:16 PM

"So does this mean that the critical temp is 135c?"

Yes it will shut down at 135C

"I checked the connections of the heat sink, the fan and the PSU...all are firmly attached."
Perhaps there isn't sufficiant contact between the heatsink and the surface?

I don't own a P4 so I think that Raystonn should be able to help you troubleshoot much more and better then me.
It will also help if you let us know what your system details are, such as computer case, Mobo,bios version, Graphiccard etc

(From the Datasheet for P4. 1.7v processors.)
Processor and......Thermal Design.....Minimum.....Maximum
Core Frequency.....Power (W)2.........TCase(°C)...TCase(°C)......Notes
1.30GHz....................48.9........................5...............69...........1.3
1.40GHz....................51.8........................5...............70...........1.3
1.50GHz....................54.7........................5...............72...........1.3

As i understand it your P4 1.5Gz will start to throttle back when the CPU case temperature reaches 72 degrees C (i might be wrong though) What is your case temps?

<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by xpman on 10/07/01 07:23 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
October 8, 2001 12:41:40 AM

"Yes it will shut down at 135C "
If this is the critical temp then anything beloew this is safe? I highly doubt it!

I don't know what is the name of the case, it is a generic ATX case.
My other specs are, 256 pc800 RDRAM
3D Prophet 4500
Western Digital 30 GB HD
LG 8521B CD ROM
ACER 1208a CDRW
SBLive!
Realtek Ethernet card.

The temps that are shown to me...sys zone1 60, sys zone2 40...and the processor when busy exceeds the 70c mark.
The room temp around 25c and the temp of the inlet air isn't much higher than that. (Intel recommends a maximum of 40c)
October 8, 2001 4:51:22 AM

There goes Meltdown again!

I had a precursor to my text that what you think of it as a bug or a feature depends entirely dependent on a point of view.

And its the same Meltdown who must have thoroughly enjoyed Dr.Tom's CPU barbecue videos, in which you can clearly see a drastic drop in frame rate when the P4 2GHz is overheated. What was this drop for? Dint the CPU run itself slower when overheated?

And we are not talking of ideal conditions. Even any AMD CPU wont be a toast in *ideal* conditions. We are talking of exceptional conditions in which the CPU *may* overheat close to its sustainable limit, and the actions taken by the CPU to counter it.

Its in the Intel manuals as one of the posts say.

Yes I do get information from websites, everybody does. And FYI I havent seen the inquest or vanshardware, thanks for the links. You could even visit x86.ddj.com or faceintel.com

girish


<font color=red>No system is fool-proof. Fools are Ingenious!</font color=red>
October 8, 2001 5:45:07 AM

>There goes Meltdown again!

yep! here I go again! :-)

>I had a precursor to my text that what you think of it as a bug or a feature depends entirely dependent on a point of view.

only bigtime AMDa$$lickers will think of it as a bug i.e, Van Smith, Bert, Chris tom.

>And its the same Meltdown who must have thoroughly enjoyed Dr. Tom's CPU barbecue videos

yes I did, it was f'n brilliant! "The Hard truth: a THG documentary".(notice how VHJ never even mentioned this newsworthy item!)

>What was this drop for?

you keep repeating FUD from Inquest and VHJ(those idiots couldn't come up with the goods! LOL!), show us proof that a P4 1.4 will turn into 700Mhz while running intensive apps and I'll stfu.

"<b>AMD/VIA!</b>...you are <i>still</i> the weakest link, good bye!"
October 8, 2001 5:58:45 AM

That THG video shows performance slowdown... doesnt that mean a processor slowdown?


<font color=red>No system is fool-proof. Fools are Ingenious!</font color=red>
October 8, 2001 9:05:18 AM

Looks like meltdown has to stfu now.....I highly doubt he will.

~Matisaro~
"The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark"
~Tbird1.3@1.5~
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
October 8, 2001 10:21:08 AM

Everybody grow up! will ya?
Everyone here thinks person X is stupid cause he got CPU Y which is bad...fair enough. A stupid person with a stupid processor. A perfect match!

So just move on and don't [-peep-] force your opinions in others' throats!!!


So is there anyone here who is sensible enough and help me?
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
October 8, 2001 2:34:55 PM

"If this is the critical temp then anything beloew this is safe? I highly doubt it!"

I was merely confirming your own findings about the shutdown temp.

Like i said it seems like that your P4 1.5 will start to throttle back when the CPU case temperature reaches 72 degrees C.

Whats your motherboard?
October 8, 2001 6:23:58 PM

>That THG video shows performance slowdown...doesnt that mean a processor slowdown?

??? dude are you a for real??? under these conditions the P4 WILL throttle down, there's no real news here.

what am saying is(which, you obviously fail to grasp): that a properly configured P4 will NOT throttle down WHILE you are running intensive apps.

how many other ways can I explain this?

your comment on using the P4 only to surf or to get email because it will throttle down while using intensive apps is just full of sh!t and is borrowed fud!

"<b>AMD/VIA!</b>...you are <i>still</i> the weakest link, good bye!"
October 8, 2001 6:55:18 PM

And a "properly configured" Tbird will NOT melt down WHILE you are running intensive apps.

Sorry, couldn't resist :) 

<font color=green>I post so you don't have to!
9/11 - RIP</font color=green>
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
October 8, 2001 8:30:40 PM

I thought I mentioned taht before :o 
Sorry..Anyways, my mobo is the Intel D850GB.
With the latest firmware btw.
October 8, 2001 8:47:15 PM

The thermal throttle temperature varies depending on the default voltage level that was set for your processor. If you have a 1.7V processor it can safely reach a temperature of 72C without thermal throttling engaging. If you have a 1.75V processor it can safely reach a temperature of 73C without thermal throttling engaging. The thermal throttling is there for the protection of your processor. If you are reaching temperatures near this then you should examine your cooling solution; it is not effective. What type of heatsink and fans are you using? Do you have case fans? What is the ambient temperature in the room?

-Raystonn


= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my employer. =
October 9, 2001 5:39:56 AM

Get real man!

We are talking of exceptional conditions here and not the ideal ones. How many times people have to get it into you?

If all processors were properly configured they wont have to be tested that way. We are discussing how a processor will react at high temperatures, which wont happen under proper conditions.

We are discussing processor emergency procedures and forget the ideal conditions. Even a Athlon Tbird wont burn down in proper conditions, properly configured, HSF well mounted, well cooled, well ventilated and on top of it, lightly used! Just as P4 would do!!

And that slowdown <i>IS</i> one of the emergency measures taken by the P4, thats all.

And for once, why dont you test your P4 without a heatsink checking you mail or typing out junk here. even that will trigger the TCC (Thermal Control Circuit) because no heat sink means no cooling and linear rise of temperature. But you wont notice the speed drop since you are not doing anything intensive. Just writing intensive posts.

girish

<font color=red>No system is fool-proof. Fools are Ingenious!</font color=red>
October 9, 2001 5:53:11 AM

[joke]Meltdowns p90 can run without a heatsink, thats why he thinks intels soultions are the cats pajamas.[/joke]

~Matisaro~
"The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark"
~Tbird1.3@1.5~
October 9, 2001 6:46:27 AM

Don't feel bad Matisaro, Rcf called me a zealot too for no apparent reason other than offering a valid comparison between the potential and probable performances of the 8500 and the Ge3.

Nevermind the fact that my post was fair and objective, and that the same day Rcf had been planting posts that continually bashed Nvidia and made claims of ATI superiority with no benchmarks, no proof, and no applicable logic. Rcf... you're the zealot, buddy. Not me, not Matisaro, nor anyone who might have a single kind word to say about Nvidia. It's kind of hard to take you seriously when you post such immature and hypocritical remarks. Just calm down and quit slinging mud and maybe you'll earn OUR respect. Until then, I don't think we really give a rats ass what you think.

"Laziness is a talent to be cultivated like any other" - Walter Slovotsky
October 9, 2001 8:36:26 AM

At first he was not so bad, he always was an ati fan, but he treated others with some level of respect. When the radeon8500 beta benchmarks were released on THG however he transformed into a die hard troll overnight.

Sad really.

~Matisaro~
"The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark"
~Tbird1.3@1.5~
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
October 9, 2001 2:59:44 PM

The ambient room temp varies between 20 and 25c. And I have a case fan situated just bedside the CPU to pump hot air out of the system. And I am using the standard HSF which came with the retail package.

Is there any way to check if the heat sink is properly installed without uninstalling it and reinstalling it?
October 9, 2001 3:43:47 PM

Quote:
Rcf... you're the zealot, buddy.


True, true

<font color=green>I post so you don't have to!
9/11 - RIP</font color=green>
October 9, 2001 4:22:36 PM

well, with proper cooling and heatsink/fan the processor temperature is usually within 25% surplus of the system (the motherboard sensors) or upto 100% over ambient, that is 100% to 200% of the ambient value depending on the operating voltage <i>and</i> nominal power consumption of the processor.

If the HSF breaks down or its improperly installed cooling deteriorates and the processor temperature rises up. A wee bit rise over 150~200% over ambient might attribute to the inferior ventilation and can be ignored. But if there is a large difference between the ambient and the processor temperature you should first check the heat sink, the thickness of the thermal paste, the pressure applied by the HSF clamps (sometimes the clamp is weak and does not allow the heat sink properly gather the processor heat), the fan speed and the direction of the heat sink vanes which should be usually horizontal to alow the air to flow right through them from front to rear.

If you are getting abnormally high temperatures your HSF might need reseating or an upgrade. Your P4 at 60°C is such temperature. Try a better cooling equipment.

girish

<font color=red>No system is fool-proof. Fools are Ingenious!</font color=red>
October 9, 2001 8:29:20 PM

When you quote your CPU temperature to us where are you getting this number? We need to know if it is a temperature reading from the actual CPU or from a motherboard monitor. Is the air inside your case really hot? Do you feel hot air coming from the vent of your case? Can you touch the heatsink on the processor without getting burned? (Be careful on this one.)

-Raystonn


= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my employer. =
!