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Why are taxes such an issue?

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August 3, 2011 6:34:26 PM

Problem?

More about : taxes issue

August 3, 2011 6:46:04 PM

i know why.
because people look at their check and see how much money is there..
then they start to daydream the thought 'what if this check had $50 extra'

sometimes the person looks at the money removed and thinks 'that is MY money.. where is it going?'

tax really isnt an issue of MY money.
it is a fee to be here on this planet.
the whole fixing roads because you use them too when you go from one place to the next.
making certain the teacher have big pieces of chalk.. because it makes them happy and they teach the kids better.

they really need to start putting air conditioning in ALL of the schools that see temperatures more than 73 degrees F.
August 3, 2011 7:28:40 PM

I dont have any problems paying my taxes. We live in a great country with adequate infrastructure and police. I wouldnt even mind paying more if that meant paying down the deceit or getting cheaper education.

Related resources
August 3, 2011 7:59:35 PM

There is nothing stopping you or anyone else for that matter paying more taxes. Yes that is directed at the Matt Damons (the tool) of the world.

There is even a box on your 1040 for how much extra you wish to pay. Just fill it in and write the check.
August 3, 2011 8:05:42 PM

^ Can you write a directory tax to where you want the money to go to? Like infrastructure or job creation?
August 3, 2011 8:07:43 PM

dogman_1234 said:
^ Can you write a directory tax to where you want the money to go to? Like infrastructure or job creation?



No it goes into the treasury along with everything else.
August 3, 2011 8:55:13 PM

dogman_1234 said:
Problem?


Um, okay, that has to rank really high on the list of questions created out of complete ignorance that I have ever seen on this, or any forum for that matter.
August 3, 2011 8:56:26 PM

anwaypasible said:
i know why.
because people look at their check and see how much money is there..
then they start to daydream the thought 'what if this check had $50 extra'

sometimes the person looks at the money removed and thinks 'that is MY money.. where is it going?'

tax really isnt an issue of MY money.
it is a fee to be here on this planet.
the whole fixing roads because you use them too when you go from one place to the next.
making certain the teacher have big pieces of chalk.. because it makes them happy and they teach the kids better.

they really need to start putting air conditioning in ALL of the schools that see temperatures more than 73 degrees F.

$50, really? Where do you work, part time at McDonalds?

Let me put this into perspective.
I am not a "wealthy" individual.
I am probably what most people would call a middle class person.
I paid over $10,000 last year in personal income tax.
I paid another $4000 in personal property taxes on items I OWN. (bought and paid for already, as well as a sales tax of about 7%-9% on those same items at the time of purchase.)
I pay about 8.9% sales tax on EVERY ITEM I BUY.
Not to mention capitol gains taxes, gift taxes, and oh well, you get the picture. And yet, someone asks, "why are taxes such a big deal" That person clearly is either a child living at home that someone else supports, or an inmate, or they are on welfare living off of the rest of us.
August 3, 2011 9:14:32 PM

jitpublisher said:
Um, okay, that has to rank really high on the list of questions created out of complete ignorance that I have ever seen on this, or any forum for that matter.


I was keeping it simple to keep bias out.

Sorry if I offended your all powerful intellectual capabilities that others do not posses. BTW, have you met my friend awp?
August 3, 2011 9:15:12 PM

jitpublisher said:
$50, really? Where do you work, part time at McDonalds?

Let me put this into perspective.
I am not a "wealthy" individual.
I am probably what most people would call a middle class person.
I paid over $10,000 last year in personal income tax.
I paid another $4000 in personal property taxes on items I OWN. (bought and paid for already, as well as a sales tax of about 7%-9% on those same items at the time of purchase.)
I pay about 8.9% sales tax on EVERY ITEM I BUY.
Not to mention capitol gains taxes, gift taxes, and oh well, you get the picture. And yet, someone asks, "why are taxes such a big deal" That person clearly is either a child living at home that someone else supports, or an inmate, or they are on welfare living off of the rest of us.


What state do you live in?
August 3, 2011 10:06:48 PM

Washington.
I am not trying to be an intelekutual, I am simply saying that if you have to ask about taxes, you apparently aren't paying them.
August 3, 2011 10:39:18 PM

jitpublisher said:
Washington.


Figures. I know people who live there.

Yes, I pay taxes...not much thought due to my pay.
August 3, 2011 11:17:00 PM

We do not have a tax problem. We have a spending problem.
August 3, 2011 11:42:21 PM

^ Agreed, but the issue is why should we give ore to spenders?
August 3, 2011 11:59:09 PM

dogman_1234 said:
^ Agreed, but the issue is why should we give ore to spenders?



Simple. WE shouldn't.

T- Taxed
E- Enough
A- Already

Has nothing to do with bags of nuts dipping in mouths.
August 3, 2011 11:59:57 PM

The motto of the Teabagger. :D  Simple, and catchy.
August 4, 2011 12:04:58 AM

What does taxes have to do with tea bagging which is a sexual act?

August 4, 2011 1:18:09 AM

Yeah so? He's a git.

Answer the question.
August 4, 2011 7:08:09 AM

jsc said:
We do not have a tax problem. We have a spending problem.


this truth is already known.

people like jitpublisher get a chance to express themselves all upset about the money they pay to live on this planet.
but
because of all the anger, they talk to other people.. and those people are equally angry.
then..
nobody realizes the MASSIVE amount of money taxes bring in every year.

somebody else comes along and says 'we have a spending problem'
it makes some people think 'all of our tax money is gone'
but
it makes other people think 'they didnt spend it all on new toilet seats'

here is where it gets worse.
because people know all of that money simply cannot get spent all in one year.
people get really angry because they dont know where the money is going.. BECAUSE the government wont tell them where the money is going.

stop giving yourself a heart attack about it.
that money has to get paid by everybody at some point in the month.
if you could open your mind a little bit.. you might think your tax money pays for the internet to get created.
or
to run this forum on tomshardware.com

now..
would it be better to put air conditioners in the schools that dont have them already?
yes it would be.
but
would those air conditioners make a bigger impact?
that question could get some confusion.
most kids will learn better in school with the air conditioner.
some kids will use the fresh air as an excuse to be a clown.

how about this..
what school is willing to accept a bunch of free air conditioners (or a couple industrial size a/c units) if the new electricity bill is going to be an extra ________ per month?

the school system has already been molded into complaining about how financially poor they are.
to add a huge electric bill onto the monthly bills..
that seems like a MEAN thing to do.. rather than a nice thing to do.

of course,
the children need it no matter how much it costs.
especially when the classroom sizes are bigger and bigger.


taxes pay for a lot of things people never ever use.
and that makes people angry because the things they do use everyday is not something they can grab ahold of and be happy with.

take those numbers you gave out.
then think about how much money the local government makes each month at the local courthouse.
seems like every single person is getting a fine that costs at least $100
sometimes as high as $800
plus the money they spent to bond out of jail early.. another $100 - $300


there is more money coming in than anybody can keep track of.
we DO NOT spend it all.. unless it went towards cell phone towers and the internet.
because then..
we would have some debt to get rid of.
and we are all using the internet right now.. so i think it is best we look at the many improvements in speed the internet has gone through.
and then look at what websites are offering on the website (because this one is really going to raise hell).

the cell phones appear to be making everybody as happy as could be expected.
and that doesnt give anybody the right to think the dull and embarassing internet is any better or 'innocent'

the technological revolution has been underway since the time all of this 'stuff' was being invented and tested.
that is where the most of the money went.. to create this technological world we live in.

once we round our way to being complete.. there will be more money to spend.
perhaps ya'll are simply laughing and teasing at such a thought?
August 4, 2011 7:13:14 AM

Oldmangamer_73 said:
Simple. WE shouldn't.

T- Taxed
E- Enough
A- Already

Has nothing to do with bags of nuts dipping in mouths.


here is more truth as to where the tax money went.
tea can seriously be strong enough to make a person clinically ill.
obviously it isnt as wild anymore, because the money was spent to look at it all under a microscope to learn it and master it.

now if we can do that for tea..
what other things do you imagine we could have done it for?
how about television technology
or wireless technology

or go back to chemistry and think about all of the things available from now, tomorrow, and the past 60+ years.

i already know:
cache rules everything around me. (but it is starting to get inside in a real disgusting form)
August 4, 2011 7:17:04 AM

Oldmangamer_73 said:
What does taxes have to do with tea bagging which is a sexual act?


creating, distributing, and absorbing the tea are a sexual act or romantic?

i can think either way.
and with that said..
what about the money spent on the research to allow a condom to be applied from what appears to be spit.?
the dumb thing is very thin.. as if it really was spit.
August 4, 2011 1:48:00 PM

Simply the US does not pay enough tax and spends too much money.

Either spend less on the govt budget ... or pay more tax.

Here we pay more taxes.

Since you guys clearly don't want to ... then you can't have decent public schools, hospitals, and all of the rest of the thiings we take for granted.

Simple.
August 4, 2011 1:59:52 PM

anwaypasible said:
...it makes other people think 'they didnt spend it all on new toilet seats'...unless it went towards cell phone towers...the cell phones appear to be making everybody as happy as could be expected...tea can seriously be strong enough to make a person clinically ill...cache rules everything around me...what about the money spent on the research to allow a condom to be applied from what appears to be spit...the dumb thing is very thin.. as if it really was spit.
Between these ramblings and your avatar, it may be time to put down the bong and lay off the kind bud for a while. Nothing personal, just saying...

August 4, 2011 3:23:10 PM

I love what “jitpublisher” had to say because it’s spot on. It would be an awesome research project to see how much of a $100 product’s price tag is actually the result of taxes.

Take a $100 set of RAM for example. First, you have all the income and entitlement taxes on all the people who handle the product from raw materials, to manufacturing, to assembly, to delivery etc. Then you have “hidden” taxes like taxes on fuel, utilities, licenses, etc. You would also need to factor in property taxes, tariffs, excise taxes etc. It wouldn’t surprise me if 50% of the final cost is actually tax.

Since government is essential for civilization I am not opposed to taxes, but I am opposed to the government creeping into non-essential areas. Remember, that the US Constitution was intended to severely LIMIT government. Any powers not specifically enumerated are by default excluded and/or reserved for the states or individuals.

When a person takes the Constitution seriously (that the government is best kept small), understands that the government can never EARN money (only take it), and recognizes that governments are always wasteful (being free of market pressures) then they get upset when politicians want to spend more of their money to keep themselves in office.

Now, if you are in the group of Americans who pay NO federal income tax (around 47%-- http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Nearly-half-of-US-househo...) then you probably don’t care as much about raising taxes. But probably the biggest group of people who don’t care that much about tax increases are the people who just don’t realize how much of their earnings are going to the government. (educate yourself at: http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/index.cfm)
August 4, 2011 3:46:02 PM

Reynod said:

Since you guys clearly don't want to ... then you can't have decent public schools, hospitals, and all of the rest of the thiings we take for granted.

Sure, we can. Take education for example. DoEd. has had 30 years to make progress with the public schools. So far, they are mostly progressing - backwards.

Compare the US DoD school system for military dependents with the civilian schools. They are much better. It's not money. They spend less per student.

It's not student quality. According to liberal perceptions, we are too stupid to find and keep a regular job. And intelligence is a heritable trait.

What could it be? Could it be that the DoD school system is under the DoD and not the DoEd? Could it be that they can hold parents accountable for their children's conduct? Could it be that the NEA (not the National Endowment for the Arts) has little influence?

Or could it be all three factors?

For that matter, private schools, on the average, spend less per student than the public schools do in the U.S.

August 4, 2011 4:46:59 PM

anwaypasible said:
i know why.
because people look at their check and see how much money is there..
then they start to daydream the thought 'what if this check had $50 extra'

sometimes the person looks at the money removed and thinks 'that is MY money.. where is it going?'

tax really isnt an issue of MY money.
it is a fee to be here on this planet.
the whole fixing roads because you use them too when you go from one place to the next.
making certain the teacher have big pieces of chalk.. because it makes them happy and they teach the kids better.

they really need to start putting air conditioning in ALL of the schools that see temperatures more than 73 degrees F.


The problem is that your tax dollars don't just go to things that you like and are useful, they go to a lot of other things as well that you would not agree with. They go to paying for a wind farm made with windmills from a major campaign donor's firm. They go to paying hundreds of thousands of dollars for statues of fornicating dogs on California overpasses and for welfare money that gets spend buying booze, lottery tickets, and cigarettes. THAT'S why a lot of us are upset at taxes- there is a lot of waste and crap that our money goes towards that basically only benefits the politicians controlling the purse strings. Most of us also pay well over $50 a paycheck in taxes- I earn a pretty average income and it's several hundred dollars in taxes out of each check every two weeks. And if you have a good job, you're losing 40-50% out of each check to pay for federal income taxes, Medicare, Social Security, Medicaid, and state income taxes. That gets pretty darned depressing, especially if you've done things like work a bunch of overtime or traveling and missed out on a lot of nights and weekends to get that extra money.
August 4, 2011 9:54:31 PM

i dont think it is fair to allow you to continue thinking the $50 is all of the taxes being taken out.
i was simply stating, i myself have looked at those deductions and thought 'what if i could get an extra $50 per month somehow from this check i am receiving?'

the biggest problem is people who start to care, and then fall completely short.
how much do people think it costs for booze or cigarettes to be made?
i'm thinking we can start the conversation at pennies.
why would anybody think a huge business like a tobacco or liquor company would give all that money to ONE person?
so that one person could get mad and throw a fit.. walking away from the family with ALL of the money?
that is complete stupidity and an outrage.
the money would be going towards a families last name.. or to the government.
and that is exactly how the government can earn money.

if i was the government and i gave you $600 per month to spend.. chances are, the ratio to get that $600 is much MUCH smaller than the ratio you would pay when you buy government owned (or affiliated) products.

lets say this to really put it at rest.
we have 6.25% sales tax on everything here in this area.
if i took all of the $600 from the local sales tax.. and you went out to buy a bottle of liquor for $25 ON SALE ... you would be giving the government something like 90% profit.

hello...
it took 6.25% to get us to $600
and with ONE payment.. you gave back at a rate of 90% profit.

compare those two numbers..
6.25% vs. 90%

the money is pouring in like a water dam that has ceased to exist.
with that much money available.. a massive amount can get funded.
that is why you see things like secret service personnel or undercover cops (teenagers) getting paid cash.

you might be absolutely correct about the politicians holding onto the the money by controlling the purse strings.
but
that is because the government has an overhead policy that can completely control spending by setting down a policy for the sake of psychological want/demand.
if you go spending that money without permission.. they will snap their fingers and say it isnt your money to be spending, and that is how you see politicians go to jail over something that makes hardly any sense.

it is what you dont see that is more weird.
millionaires who are constantly escorted is quite often the number one form of punishment.
because those escorts bring friends, and together they make your life a living hell.
and at the end of the day.. you have to realize those people making your life a living hell are actually getting paid for it.

hmm..
lets think about that.
the person (or people) making your life a living hell are getting paid for it (or remain affiliated with the government).
that obviously means one of two things:
1. they are a member of a new mob that is spending business money amongst the people to get things done.
2. the government is spending money amongst the people to get things done.

when was the last time you ever heard of a mob that WASNT government affiliated?
August 5, 2011 1:16:10 AM

jsc said:

What could it be? Could it be that the DoD school system is under the DoD and not the DoEd? Could it be that they can hold parents accountable for their children's conduct? Could it be that the NEA (not the National Endowment for the Arts) has little influence?

Or could it be all three factors?


You left out the group that's actually in charge of your local schools. The local school board, with possibly some influence by the state department of education. In terms of involvement, the Federal Department of Education actually does almost nothing. They don't hire the employees. They don't set the curriculum. They don't build the schools.

Here's what they do...collect data, pass out federal checks (most of which are decided by Congress), and maybe a bit of enforcement if Congress tells them to do something. But it's really not much. And it's all their authorized to do, so don't complain about them doing nothing.

In comparison other countries with a much higher rating for school effectiveness have a much more centralized education system.
August 5, 2011 1:41:39 AM

mutt x said


I love what “jitpublisher” had to say because it’s spot on. It would be an awesome research project to see how much of a $100 product’s price tag is actually the result of taxes.

Take a $100 set of RAM for example. First, you have all the income and entitlement taxes on all the people who handle the product from raw materials, to manufacturing, to assembly, to delivery etc. Then you have “hidden” taxes like taxes on fuel, utilities, licenses, etc. You would also need to factor in property taxes, tariffs, excise taxes etc. It wouldn’t surprise me if 50% of the final cost is actually tax.


there was a study and it comes out to aboute 23 %. This is the basis for the Fair Tax, a consumption tax that is being promoted by some.
http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer

Mac
August 5, 2011 5:40:37 PM

Solution: Tax reform
- so that when it comes down to it we pay pretty much the same taxes
- but there should be more transparency on how the money is spent
- and who gets it

What people here seem to be concerned with is that fact that as citizens, we have a contract with our government that claims that if we pay taxes and follow the laws, then the government will ensure a better lifestyle for all its peoples... except that people disagree what that means.

Rich people, who already have nice lifestyles, don't see the logic of paying more into a system that they have already succeeded in. Or, because they are not lacking in the basic necessities of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, they have different goals for the money they contribute. The poverty stricken, on the other hand, have first and foremost in their minds a concern over how they are going to make it through the next week, month, year... etc.

The middle class has another group of overlapping interests.

So the problem that our representatives have is balancing all of those desires so that every group is reasonably happy... enough so that there aren't any revolts.

The other problem with this system is the difficulty associated with getting into public office and shaping the use of this money... pretty much only rich people can do it, and as such, sometimes their goals are put first. OR, they're just bad people who are corrupt and allocate tax money for their own personal goals.

So I don't really have a problem with how many taxes I pay. As a good person I'm thrilled my money is helping to support the 47% of people who are too poor to even pay federal income tax. I'll happily pay more... if they can show me that the money is being used in SOME productive way, but that's a problem that we voters have to express, wherein we expect our representatives to vote for responsible expeditures of the budgets they are given.

More importantly, if you have enough of a problem, then you will take action. If you let it go, you might as well not be bothered about it at all.
August 5, 2011 5:45:27 PM

There is a problem with defining a productive way. Opinions will vary on that, and people will only focus on their own particular problems, not necessarily the reality.

Also...paying pretty much the same taxes is a bad standard because costs of living are not proportional, once you get a certain point it, the basic necessities of life are covered so it becomes luxuries more than essentials. Making people pay basically the same will hurt those at the bottom far more than an inequality with taxes paid at the top.


August 5, 2011 6:12:18 PM

My point was exactly that, that people's different opinions on what productive is explains the anger with our tax/debt/deficit issues. Ideally we could come up with a system to circumvent this, but that's way beyond me.

By same taxes, I meant paying the same we each are now, as individuals. But I also do not condone the loopholes many people slip through...
August 5, 2011 6:38:45 PM

It's not opinions so much as it is perceptions. People don't see the result of not letting others starve to death, or even letting the other people drive a well-maintained highway to work. Instead they just imagine everybody on welfare is a scam artist, or that every road is a bridge to nowhere.

And I don't know what you mean paying the same we each are now. Are you saying keep the current system, minus any abused sections of it?
August 5, 2011 6:55:58 PM

I just mean that we pay what would appear to be the same amount of taxes... but less revenue is lost in bureaucracy. That's for those of us not abusing loopholes... those people that previously took advantage of loopholes would end up paying their fair share (whatever that is, since there's a whole extra discussion about that) and might be a little ticked... but the Law giveth and the Law taketh away.

I agree about perceptions though. It's why Democrats brag about all the help that socialist programs provide and play down the role of business, and Republicans brag about the role of business and play down the effectiveness of social programs. I'm of course generalizing entire parties through their representatives in Congress, but my point is that the easiest way to push either agenda is to change public perception through only partially honest rhetoric.
August 5, 2011 8:02:59 PM

greenrider02 said:
I just mean that we pay what would appear to be the same amount of taxes... but less revenue is lost in bureaucracy. That's for those of us not abusing loopholes... those people that previously took advantage of loopholes would end up paying their fair share (whatever that is, since there's a whole extra discussion about that) and might be a little ticked... but the Law giveth and the Law taketh away.

I agree about perceptions though. It's why Democrats brag about all the help that socialist programs provide and play down the role of business, and Republicans brag about the role of business and play down the effectiveness of social programs. I'm of course generalizing entire parties through their representatives in Congress, but my point is that the easiest way to push either agenda is to change public perception through only partially honest rhetoric.


You talk about closing loopholes and cutting waste. I'm all for that but I know it won't be enough to create a surplus, not by a long shot. That's why tax increases are necessary.

P.S. two wars man, that gets expensive...
August 5, 2011 10:52:33 PM

greenrider02 said:
Solution: Tax reform
- so that when it comes down to it we pay pretty much the same taxes
- but there should be more transparency on how the money is spent
- and who gets it

What people here seem to be concerned with is that fact that as citizens, we have a contract with our government that claims that if we pay taxes and follow the laws, then the government will ensure a better lifestyle for all its peoples... except that people disagree what that means.

Rich people, who already have nice lifestyles, don't see the logic of paying more into a system that they have already succeeded in. Or, because they are not lacking in the basic necessities of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, they have different goals for the money they contribute. The poverty stricken, on the other hand, have first and foremost in their minds a concern over how they are going to make it through the next week, month, year... etc.

The middle class has another group of overlapping interests.

So the problem that our representatives have is balancing all of those desires so that every group is reasonably happy... enough so that there aren't any revolts.

The other problem with this system is the difficulty associated with getting into public office and shaping the use of this money... pretty much only rich people can do it, and as such, sometimes their goals are put first. OR, they're just bad people who are corrupt and allocate tax money for their own personal goals.

So I don't really have a problem with how many taxes I pay. As a good person I'm thrilled my money is helping to support the 47% of people who are too poor to even pay federal income tax. I'll happily pay more... if they can show me that the money is being used in SOME productive way, but that's a problem that we voters have to express, wherein we expect our representatives to vote for responsible expeditures of the budgets they are given.

More importantly, if you have enough of a problem, then you will take action. If you let it go, you might as well not be bothered about it at all.



Nothing is stopping you from paying more you know. Feel free to write the check. There is even a little box on your 1040 for you. :)  Enjoy making the world a better place. :) 
August 5, 2011 10:54:40 PM

Gulli said:
You talk about closing loopholes and cutting waste. I'm all for that but I know it won't be enough to create a surplus, not by a long shot. That's why tax increases are necessary.

P.S. two wars man, that gets expensive...



What's a loophole?
August 5, 2011 11:20:32 PM

Im going to start this with ALL of you (well not the unemployed basement dwellers) pays me. Since I work for the DOD as a combat enigneer. I have a perspective on this that it seems is so over looked. I was making 70K a year in a state that had an average take home of 30-35K. I owned a bussness and lost track of what I paid in tax. Tax on everything, even a local tax on inventory that I had not sold yet, tax on equpiment I owned and already paid tax on, a tax simply for having a sign out front. But I digress. I enlisted because I was bored, life was to easy and what the hell I like seeing things go boom and not just an m80 in the backyard (and you I can make big bombs HAHAHA really have no clue until you are 500feet away in a bunker when 6 40lb cratering charges go off)

We as in the military have a fixed pay rate. The goverment likes to toy with us by saying when they argue that we wont get paid. We make plans, borrow money just to pay rent and several people in my unit alone are below the poverty level. But we take it, we reup and we charlie mike. Its our job and we dont do it to get rich.

YET the unions teacher etc all bitch. WE WANT MORE MONEY. They get it. Welfair moms will never miss a check, and roads that are already fine get torn up and remade just to give union labor something to do. Civis do jobs WE the military used to do for 10times the amount we did it.

You want less waste less in taxes. Kill the unions and let the free market work. Why should some idiot holding a stop sign get 3times my pay to stand around when my 18 hour day involves driving very slow looking for an IED. I dont want a pay raise I want people to be paid what is fair.

Whats wrong with this country is Unions. Boing is a pefect example. They get sued because they built a plant in a non-union state.. If I were them I would say STFU and move the plant to china.
August 5, 2011 11:28:26 PM

^ I have respect for you. I agree with you that the teachers and the Public guys should not get the pay raises. Now, unions in PRIVATE ar not an issue. What Boeing did was their own thing, not anybodies issue. Why did people get upset, because the PUBLIC Unions got upset, not the private guys. BTW, taking Boeing to China is the dumbest thing ever. I will never fly again if that happens.
August 5, 2011 11:40:55 PM

You're blaming the wrong people. The Union workers are not the ones who are collecting the big paychecks for work being contracted out. It's the owners of the corporations who lobbied the politicians to do it.

And I don't know where in the US they'd have to tear up perfectly good roads to give pavers something to do (and most paving is also contracted out to private companies), but if there is such a place, please send them here, my local area has undermaintained its roads for decades.

And no, what Boeing did was not their own thing, it's the interests of the people of the United States, which includes not letting companies manipulate the system to get out of doing the right thing for their workers. And if Boeing moved to China, I'd say we should shoot their planes down instead. Why? Because the American people should care about themselves, and clearly if Boeing moved to another country, they would not be acting in our interests, they'd be our enemies.

You might as well say it's not my business if my neighbor upstream is pissing in the river.

August 5, 2011 11:54:17 PM

Oldmangamer_73 said:
What's a loophole?


The law as far as I am concerned, nothing illegal going on.
August 6, 2011 12:59:45 AM

m3kt3k said:
Im going to start this with ALL of you (well not the unemployed basement dwellers) pays me. Since I work for the DOD as a combat enigneer. I have a perspective on this that it seems is so over looked. I was making 70K a year in a state that had an average take home of 30-35K. I owned a bussness and lost track of what I paid in tax. Tax on everything, even a local tax on inventory that I had not sold yet, tax on equpiment I owned and already paid tax on, a tax simply for having a sign out front. But I digress. I enlisted because I was bored, life was to easy and what the hell I like seeing things go boom and not just an m80 in the backyard (and you I can make big bombs HAHAHA really have no clue until you are 500feet away in a bunker when 6 40lb cratering charges go off)

We as in the military have a fixed pay rate. The goverment likes to toy with us by saying when they argue that we wont get paid. We make plans, borrow money just to pay rent and several people in my unit alone are below the poverty level. But we take it, we reup and we charlie mike. Its our job and we dont do it to get rich.

YET the unions teacher etc all bitch. WE WANT MORE MONEY. They get it. Welfair moms will never miss a check, and roads that are already fine get torn up and remade just to give union labor something to do. Civis do jobs WE the military used to do for 10times the amount we did it.

You want less waste less in taxes. Kill the unions and let the free market work. Why should some idiot holding a stop sign get 3times my pay to stand around when my 18 hour day involves driving very slow looking for an IED. I dont want a pay raise I want people to be paid what is fair.

Whats wrong with this country is Unions. Boing is a pefect example. They get sued because they built a plant in a non-union state.. If I were them I would say STFU and move the plant to china.


Hear, hear. The only reason the current unions can even exist is that the government made a special exemption to the anti-monopoly laws for them. And of course, like any monopoly, they abuse their position.
August 6, 2011 1:33:36 AM

Yeah, that's why with less than 10% of workers nationwide unionized, they are clearly controlling the market!

Oh wait, no, that's not happening.

The lack of union representation could be why worker salaries have remained near-flat while executive compensation has escalated.

Why do you blame unions when there's far more abuse going on in executive board rooms?

August 6, 2011 2:38:17 AM

@ MysticMiner

You are exempting public unions in your figure, which are far more dangerous in my opinion and FDR agreed.
August 6, 2011 3:16:03 AM

Even Hitler knew how bad unions are. Public unions make more than their private counterpart so quit whining. Plus those public unions get paid by the taxpayers.
August 6, 2011 3:28:17 AM

MysticMiner said:
Yeah, that's why with less than 10% of workers nationwide unionized, they are clearly controlling the market!

Oh wait, no, that's not happening.


They certainly control specific markets. Many non-elected, non-appointed government employees are unionized. Many manufacturing employees are unionized. If you wonder one reason why manufacturing is waning in the U.S., could it possibly be that you have to pay >$100k in salary and benefits to workers just to bolt seats into a car?

Quote:
The lack of union representation could be why worker salaries have remained near-flat while executive compensation has escalated.


Worker salaries have actually risen, along with the dollar value of everything else in the country due to inflation. You're looking at relative figures, and why the relative salaries of manufacturing workers haven't gone up is because a lot of manufacturing is essentially unskilled or semi-skilled labor. Those jobs were heavily unionized and companies couldn't afford to pay workers those large salaries and still stay in business. (Remember, GM is a prime example of a company that paid workers enormous salaries, and look, they went benkrupt.) Companies went with greater automation of manufacturing lines and/or did the manufacturing in Mexico or overseas to get around the expense of making things here in the U.S. The people who were running the companies got rewarded for keeping the company in business.

Quote:
Why do you blame unions when there's far more abuse going on in executive board rooms?


What goes on in board rooms isn't enshrined into laws like unions' rent-seeking legislation. How much corporate execs get paid is up to the company's board of directors; there is no "price floor" on CEO wages set by the Department of Labor.
August 6, 2011 3:37:54 AM

lol I lose like $480 every single check to taxes. I wish they only took off $50 like someone else posted lol. But then again we pay a bit more in taxes in Canada than Americans do. Our health care sure isn't free we pay out the butt for it.
August 6, 2011 3:45:21 AM

Ok, let's reply to all three.

1. No, I'm not. I'm just not singling them out, the figure is 10% across the board, public and private. If it were just private, then it'd be closer to 7% instead. Since the post to which I replied was not focused solely on the public sector, why should I have done so? Me, I see no reason to make an exception but instead note the labor pool across the board, and why are you digging up FDR for your source of authority? Seems to me that's a common line, to the point of being part of a standard conservative talking points, but you do know that can be turned against you, as it was when Reagan's responses were for the recent debt ceiling. Appealing to authority is a bad practice. I recommend avoiding it, especially when it's likely not an original thought, but a bit of dogma.

2. Except that figure is not adjusted for the different levels of education or years of service on the job. When you control for that, the level of compensation is less. Is there some reason I should be upset that teachers have a higher average salary than the whole which includes teenagers just entering the labor force? I don't think so. So, sorry, but the average public sector worker is not comparable to the average of all workers.

And what is wrong about being paid by the taxpayers? Really, do you think it's payment for nothing? Do you think that the police should work for free? That teachers should work out of charity? That you should have your sewer maintained by somebody who didn't get paid? Some concern about accountability may be warranted, though it is important not to become overwrought, you can spend nickels to save pennies, but you seem to reject the idea of being paid at all.

That seems excessive.

3. Manufacturing is waning in the US? Only the jobs, but productivity is going up, and except for the recent global economic downturn, so was production. The US still produces over 1.5 trillion dollars worth of goods. Just with fewer, more efficient workers, and a concentration on high-margin goods instead of the low-margin ones. And no, those jobs were not unionized, that's why they got left behind, since the workers did not stand together.

Whose salaries have gone up, somewhat, but not at the rate CEO and executive pay has. Perhaps not even enough to keep up with inflation. Personally, I would not object to laws restricting that excessive compensation on the part of the executives, it's nasty when the average executive makes 262 times what the average worker does. It used to be less than 50 times. I can understand more pay, but the gap has certainly gotten quite wide. And GM did not go bankrupt because the workers were getting overpaid. Stop believing that lie. They went bankrupt because of the decisions made in the executive boardrooms, such as their pursuit of high-margin large cars and their compensation instead of investment in the company.

They didn't get rewarded for keeping the company in good business, sometimes they even got rewarded for making decisions to gut the company. See corporate raiders like Mitt Romney for example. And yes, they do have laws to get what they want, that's why they BUY politicians, isn't it?

Heck, who do you think those bailouts were for? It wasn't for the average worker.



4. And to the one just above, Canada pays less than the US for healthcare. About 60% of the US average.
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