The ultimate cooling solution

[Raystonn]

I recently discovered that <A HREF="http://www.overclockershideout.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=o&Category_Code=PTED" target="_new">Peltiers</A> start at only $25 and a decent water cooling kit starts at about $100 and can run up to about $150 or so. With the prospects of sub-zero temperatures for our processors and the ability to overclock well beyond the capability of our puny air-cooling HSFs, I find myself wondering why all the overclockers have not grabbed one of these. They easily pay for themselves in that they can be moved from system to system as you upgrade and move on. Has anyone else here played with one of these setups? Have I piqued anyone's interest into investigating? How about a discussion on Peltiers and water cooling...

-Raystonn


= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my employer. =

 

[Yahiko81]

A lot of us use water coolers. CALV has an awesome setup. I got my in a kit from <A HREF="http://www.cool-computers.com" target="_new">http://www.cool-computers.com</A> but modified it a bit. I used a heavy gauge water tubing and clamps to prevent leakage. The only problem with sub zero temps is condensation. But if you insulate all lines and exposed metal then you don't have to worry about it.

Nice <b><font color=green>Lizards</b></font color=green> <b>crunch</b> Trolls cookies....... Yummy!!

 

[Raystonn]

I made my discoveries over at <A HREF="http://www.overclockershideout.com" target="_new">http://www.overclockershideout.com</A>. It seems surprisingly easy and cheap. I believe the number of standard HSFs I have gone through in the last couple of years exceeds the cost of a water cooling system with a Peltier. It seems insane not to grab one.

-Raystonn


= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my employer. =

 

[Yahiko81]

Another advantage of water cooling is that you can cool your processor, motherboard, and videocard. It's a good all around solution. Plus if you put the radiator on the out side of the case you have virtually no heat buildup inside the case.

Nice <b><font color=green>Lizards</b></font color=green> <b>crunch</b> Trolls cookies....... Yummy!!

 

[Raystonn]

What temperatures do you usually see from your system? Do you have any condensation issues?

-Raystonn


= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my employer. =

 

[Guest]

Anyone tested the ICE HOLE? have a look it's actually a mediatory device that resides between the 60mm or 80mm heatsink and fan with cool disco light ilumination. Cost 38,000 South Korean Won translates into approximately $29.39. no info on cooling capabilitys though except "They have developed a product that not only provides excellent functionality, but looks fantastic while doing it! This is a must have for any computer enthusiasts or tweaker alike."

http://www.amdworld.co.uk/icehole.htm

 

[peteb]

Raystonn,

The problems with peltiers (for us Athlon/P3 users at any rate :tongue: ) is that the the control of the Peltier is difficult.

You generally need a large peltier for all but the lowest PIII, and they draw a lot of current. For most people you cannot draw that much current and supply your PC, all from 1 PSU. This is more of an issue for top Athlon processors as they require much larger peltiers of course).

So now you need to rig two supplies, and hopefully have 1 triggered by turning on the power to your main psu. You wouldn't want the peltier running if the cup wasn't because everything would go semi-cryogenic and end up an ice block.

Now the issue for Athlon users is that if the peltier were to fail - as we have seen demonstrated, there is nothing left to cool the cpu other than a small metal heat spreader. This will overheat extrememly quickly and melt everything. The PIII, as we know, will shutdown, and the P4 will in theory as demostrated by Tom, run as bset it can, whilst waiting for service to be resumed.

So, what do we have here? Athlons are most in need of TECs, but are the hardest and more risky (to the cpu) to impliment. P3 and P4 lend themselves best to less complicated and risk free peltier operation, but are probably least in need of it!

In general the overhead available from a TEC and watercooler, vs just a watercooler is little. The TEC adds complexity, is physically harder to impliment (the TEC compression rate for mounting is supposed to be 10x that of a typical cpu heatsink pressure rating) and computer PSUs will only drive a TEC at about 60% efficiency anyway, as they are rated at 20V usually.

TECs sound useful, but you have to worry about condensation too. A regular watercooler will never get below ambient, and so never condensate (unless running an open system with feed from a cold source).

You'll usually find some discussion in the Overclocking/Cooling and Heatsinks forum, if you can wade through the newbies asking if their Athlon 1400 is supposed to be 60 degrees with a retail HSF and thermal pad....

Actually I would like to hear a lot more about the P4 and overclocking it - you mention that the Samsung RAM now uniformly supports running PC1066 mode - what about the mobo to support that, and what setting/performance does it translate to etc when mated to, say the P4 2G overclocked to ??? whatever it can be overclocked to by a home user?

-* This Space For Rent *-
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[Raystonn]

"you need to rig two supplies"

True but you can simply grab an external power supply. It does not need to be inside your computer case. If you seal up the whole assembly then it should not be effected by condensation even if it goes sub-zero. The sealant itself will not be cold to the touch if enough is applied.


"P3 and P4 lend themselves best to less complicated and risk free peltier operation, but are probably least in need of it"

Unless, of course, you are overclocking.


"they are rated at 20V usually"

From what I have seen they are rated at 14V, so we are supplying 12/14 of the proper voltage and hence getting 86% efficiency. This is good enough for me.


"you mention that the Samsung RAM now uniformly supports running PC1066 mode"

Not officially, but most of their yields will run at PC1066 speeds. They have superb quality.


Imagine a Northwood Pentium 4 2.0GHz processor: It runs off a 100MHz external clock to create a 400MHz FSB. Now increase that internal clock to 133MHz, giving us a 533MHz FSB and running the memory at PC1066 speeds. Not only does this give us a 2.66GHz Northwood Pentium 4 processor, but it also gives us 4.2GB/s of memory bandwidth and reduced memory latency. You can imagine the performance benefits. <A HREF="http://www.aceshardware.com/Spades/read.php?article_id=45000217" target="_new">Here</A> you can find an article on overclocking the FSB of a Pentium 4 system with PC1066 memory. It uses the Willamette Pentium 4 though, not a Northwood, and so the processor does not overclock as well. Also, <A HREF="http://www.intel.com/pressroom/archive/speeches/otellini20010828.htm" target="_new">here</A> you will find a transcription of a keynote address at this Fall's IDF where they present a Northwood Pentium 4 running at 3.5GHz. (Search that page for the word Northwood to find the relevant information.)

-Raystonn


= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my employer. =

 

[peteb]

True but you can simply grab an external power supply. It does not need to be inside your computer case. If you seal up the whole assembly then it should not be effected by condensation even if it goes sub-zero. The sealant itself will not be cold to the touch if enough is applied

the issue with this is it needs to be the peltier, the cpu, the socket, the socket pins, tha socket back and the surrounding mobo that need to be insulated. If there is no heat generated in the system, the cold will eventually cool the whole mobo. Sure you can turn the thing on and off, but manual control means sometimes you'll forget etc. Just hassle and mess.

I'm not sure you need that much cooling (above a watercooler) for an Intel product do you? I have a 700PIII that runs very nicely at 1036 with a cheap and quiet air cooler on it at the moment.

You can get by on 12V, sure, but you do lose a lot of efficiency. I think it varies by psu, but you still need something fairly hefty to pump that much current.

I'll have a read throught he info you provided - many thanks! I just went through the Ace's articel somewhat but need to concetrate outside of work to do it justice I think.

Cheers.

-* This Space For Rent *-
email for application details

 

[Raystonn]

You most definately do not need anything like this if you are not planning on overclocking. But I am planning to see just how high I can take this Northwood. So the better the cooling, the better the results.

-Raystonn


= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my employer. =

 

[Matisaro]

Condensation concerns kept me from going that route when I bought my 1.33 and thermoengine. Playing with grease and foamy things just sounds like a huge time consuming mess!@

~Matisaro~
"The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark"
~Tbird1.3@1.5~

 

[SerArthurDayne]

Yes Ray, you have discovered the dreams of all overclockers

I have contemplated using a TEC/water cooling setup on many occasions, but I decided to wait until next year before I committed. Condensation is a huge concern.... it can be addressed with insulation, silicone, and grease, but you probably wouldn't want to let your system idle for too long in an even mildly humid environment. Don't forget that if your water pump dies, your peltier will quickly create a burning hole in your processor. And if your peltier fails, you'll have to rely on whatever thermal protection you can get from your processor. Water cooling without peltiers is much safer and easier to do; you can always fit your waterblock with a fan in case of pump failure, which has been known to save Athlon processors for many long hours while they idled at high temps. Once again though, not really a worry for a P4.

There's always other active cooling options than TEC's as well. You could hermetically seal your case and stick in a huge pipe for cold air - why just vapochill your processor when you can vapochill everything? This method would also prevent any worries about condensation provided the case was actually sealed against the intrusion of moisture.

Going back to the TEC idea, there are also devices known as stirling engines that are used in various applications. One such application is refrigeration - micro stirling engine devices are used to cool infrared guidance chips for missiles or nightvision goggles. Stirling devices are even used in cryogenics - just think of playing with your computer while your chip is just 20 Kelvin shy of Absolute Zero

You could try something few others have dared attempt - create a case out of a small freezer for your components, then use the cooling coils for your water reservoir for your in-freezer watercooling. Better yet, combine the freezer and watercooling with a massive peltier ontop of your cpu. *drool*

But for me, I only plan to go watercooling for the silence. The day I cast this Black Label Delta into the garbage will be a sweet day indeed. Or maybe I should just invest in a rheostat and turn down the RPM's

"Laziness is a talent to be cultivated like any other" - Walter Slovotsky

 

[somerandomguy]

But I am planning to see just how high I can take this Northwood.

Well, even if you can't give us benchmarks, tell us how high you get it to run when you do this.

"Ignorance is bliss, but I tend to get screwed over."

 

[Schmide]

I really surprised no one mentioned the side effect of heat. <A HREF="http://www.overclockershideout.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=o&Category_Code=PTED" target="_new">Peltiers</A> seem to create more heat than they cool. I live in a cool climate and a couple of pelts can heat up a room kinda fast, like a ceramic heater. Not all of us can dig a 4-foot hole in their floor.

Schmide

If your just going for the top of the top, lay your computer on its side and drop some dry ice or liquid nitrogen on that puppy.

 

[Schmide]

Oh yeah, make sure you seal the back of the socket. Put a bunch of Zinc Oxide non-conductive heat sink grease over the pins holes and socket center. Then place square piece of foam to in the hole to cut out the extra air. This prevents condensation and corrosion of your components.

Schmide

 

[rraquib]

What about coupling a peltier cooler with some kind of thermostat. Shouldn't that work? We should be able to dial in a desired temperature and be done with it.

 

[FatBurger]

<A HREF="http://www.amdworld.co.uk/icehole.htm" target="_new">Click</A>

I didn't find the Ice Hole to be all that impressive. It's a standard 60-->80 fan adapter with colored LEDs. Looks really cool, but not indredibly useful.

<font color=green>I post so you don't have to!
9/11 - RIP</font color=green>

 

[Raystonn]

"Peltiers seem to create more heat than they cool"

Peltiers do not really cool anything. They create a temperature differential. One side becomes cold and the other hot. You must have adequate cooling on the hot side to remove this heat. This requires water cooling for anything beyond an 80 watt Peltier.

-Raystonn


= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my employer. =

 

[Guest]

That sounds like a good idea, and simple too. I wonder if it has been done. If not why?

 

[Grizely1]

Well I already got my 1GHz to 1.51GHz with just a waterblock, no peltier. and it runs at 35C

<font color=red>umtqyvutkhgjvqffpcvpgrgtfocpgnnchvtcwqjvgepgjyoqthgtqhgtgjvtgdogogt....74pqkvcngxgt</font color=red>

 

[Schmide]

Peltiers do not really cool anything. They create a temperature differential.

Is this not a contradiction? I do not know of any other way to cool an object. When my processor temp reads –5c is it not cool. Well I guess its not cool it’s cold. An evaporator or your standard refrigerator, works the same way, it moves heat from one place to another. The medium is just different. CO2 and Liquid Nitrogen do the same thing, although their cooling ability is based in their ability to accept heat when going from liquid to gas or solid to gas.

Schmide

I’ve had plenty of success with peltiers using air evacuated heat sink cooling, but nothing compares to a large reservoir for accepting your heat. The quietness is blissful too.

 

[Raystonn]

By themselves Peltiers do not remove any heat from your processor. In fact, within 10 seconds they will begin adding heat to your processor and will burn themselves, and possibly your processor, up. They require a cooling system (a water cooling system would be best) to remove the heat. The Peltier just moves the heat of your processor into one small area so that the heatsink/water-cooler can work more efficiently. If that heat is not removed, the cold side of that Peltier will heat up and act like a toaster for your processor.

-Raystonn


= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my employer. =

 

[Guest]

i thought peltiers were a neat idea too and thought i'd give it a try it with a 1.2GHz T-Bird. i did some research and relized you needed a pretty hefty peltier to do the job. no big deal i thought. i found a 172Watter for ~30USD. ~$100 for the water cooling system and ~$100 at the time for the CPU. not bad i thought. the power supply was the problem i didn't forsee. to optimially use a 172W TEC (i forget the exact specs) you need to supply it with around 18V and 12A. try finding an affordable power supply with these specs. it is pretty darn hard. the best i could do was find a BK precision PS that could handle 20V at 5.5A or 10V at 11A. the cool thing was that you could connect two of them in series (or is it parallel) and get 20V and 11A. the perfect solution, unfortunately each PS cost ~$200. far above my budget. perhaps this is in your budget though and if it is i would love to know how it works out. or if you find a different alternative let me know.

you might be thinking of going with less wattage, could be a good idea, but then my concern is you will probably get the same result as "merely" water cooling.

i had a drink the other day... opinions were like kittens i was givin' away

 

[Schmide]

You can get really good 5.5 amp transformers used for TEC coolers (Coleman, Igloo) for about $30. Its not the prettiest solution, nor the most reliable solution, but it works.

Schmide

I had to edit this post to proclaim my membership (notice member). Stealing those FatBurger link posts really helps.
<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Schmide on 10/09/01 06:29 PM.</EM></FONT></P>

 

[Guest]

please explain? my understanding of a transformer is limited to AC Voltage. what exactly does a 5.5A transformer do.

i had a drink the other day... opinions were like kittens i was givin' away