Can a character make a saving throw when unconscious?

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"Tristan" <miraumar@korinth.com> wrote in
news:d434up$dd7@dispatch.concentric.net:

> Can a character make a saving throw when unconscious?

Fort yes you can.

Will yes, though it depends on the cause and result though.

Reflex no you cannot.
 
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Tristan wrote:
> Can a character make a saving throw when unconscious?
>
>
Sure, why not? Helpless characters are allowed to make Reflex saves
while unconscious, though their DEX is treated as if it were 0 and thus
their DEX mod is treated as -5.
 
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In article <d434up$dd7@dispatch.concentric.net>, miraumar@korinth.com
wrote:

>Can a character make a saving throw when unconscious?

Yes, but Reflex saves have very substantial penalties.

--
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ISLAM: Winning the hearts and minds of the world, one bomb at a time.
 
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On 19 Apr 2005 10:35:05 EDT, "Tristan" <miraumar@korinth.com> scribed into
the ether:

>Can a character make a saving throw when unconscious?

Fortitude Yes.
Reflex No.

Will...depends. Hard to roll a will save against an illusion when you
aren't aware enough to perceive it.
 
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I suppose it would depend on the save. If someone were trying to gain
control of your mind while you were unconscious, I would think that a
will save would be appropriate. On the other hand, a will save would be
irrelevant against just about any illusion (but not most phantasms)
because you would be unable to percieve it. Similarly, a save vs. a
sleep spell would be similarly irrelevant, as you're already quite
unconscious thank you very much. Ultimately, it would be on a case by
case basis.

Matt Frisch wrote:
> On 19 Apr 2005 10:35:05 EDT, "Tristan" <miraumar@korinth.com> scribed into
> the ether:
>
>
>>Can a character make a saving throw when unconscious?
>
>
> Fortitude Yes.
> Reflex No.
>
> Will...depends. Hard to roll a will save against an illusion when you
> aren't aware enough to perceive it.
>
 
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Matt Frisch wrote:
> On 19 Apr 2005 10:35:05 EDT, "Tristan" <miraumar@korinth.com> scribed into
> the ether:
>
>
>>Can a character make a saving throw when unconscious?
>
>
> Fortitude Yes.
> Reflex No.
>
> Will...depends. Hard to roll a will save against an illusion when you
> aren't aware enough to perceive it.
>

Not true. You CAN make a Reflex save while unconscious, though you do so
at a penalty. See the FAQ:

"Exactly when can a character make a Reflex saving
throw? The saving throw section on the Player’s Handbook
says Reflex saves depend on a character’s ability to dodge
out of the way. Does that mean you can’t make Reflex saves
if you can’t move?"

A character can attempt a Reflex save anytime she is
subjected to an effect that allows a Reflex save. A Reflex save
usually involves some dodging, but a Reflex save is not
completely dependent on a character’s ability to move around.
It also can depend on luck, variations in the effect that makes
the save necessary in the first place, and a host of other
miraculous factors that keep heroic characters in the D&D
game from meeting an untimely fate.
In most cases, you make Reflex saves normally, no matter
how bad your circumstances are, but there are a few conditions
that interfere with Reflex saves:
• If you’ve suffered Dexterity damage or Dexterity
drain, you must use your current, lower Dexterity
modifier for your Reflex saves.
• If you’re cowering, you lose your Dexterity bonus (if
any). The maximum Dexterity bonus you can have
while cowering is +0, and that affects your Reflex
saves accordingly.
• If you’re dead, you become an object. Unattended
objects can’t make saving throws.
• If you’re entangled, your effective Dexterity score
drops by –4, and you must use your lower Dexterity
modifier for Reflex saves.
• If you’re exhausted, your effective Strength and
Dexterity scores drop by –6, and you must use your
lower Dexterity modifier for Reflex saves.
• If you’re fatigued, your effective Strength and
Dexterity scores drop by –2, and you must use your
lower Dexterity modifier for Reflex saves.
• If you’re frightened or panicked, you have a –2
penalty on all saving throws, including Reflex saving
throws.
• If you’re helpless, your Dexterity score is effectively
0. You still can make Reflex saves, but your
Dexterity modifier is –5. You’re helpless whenever
you are paralyzed, unconscious, or asleep.
 
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"Tristan" <miraumar@korinth.com> wrote in message
news:d434up$dd7@dispatch.concentric.net...
> Can a character make a saving throw when unconscious?
>
>

Certainly; there are spells that only work on unconscious people,
such as Nightmare.

Geoff.
 
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freakybaby wrote:
> "Tristan" <miraumar@korinth.com> wrote in
> news:d434up$dd7@dispatch.concentric.net:
>
>>Can a character make a saving throw when unconscious?
>
> Fort yes you can.
>
> Will yes, though it depends on the cause and result though.

You won't understand language dependant stuff, and alot of mental
effects won't do anything to someone who's unconcious even if you fail.
As long as you're alive you're a valid target for mind-affecting spells,
AFAICT.

> Reflex no you cannot.

Dude, that's silly, even unattended magic items get reflex saves,
like helpless people they just have a -5 Dex mod.

--
tussock

Aspie at work, sorry in advance.
 
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On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 16:46:07 +1200, tussock <scrub@clear.net.nz> scribed
into the ether:

>freakybaby wrote:
>> "Tristan" <miraumar@korinth.com> wrote in
>> news:d434up$dd7@dispatch.concentric.net:

>> Reflex no you cannot.
>
> Dude, that's silly, even unattended magic items get reflex saves,
>like helpless people they just have a -5 Dex mod.

I can see giving a magic item a save...since they (generally) aren't
capable of movement at all, having them be auto-destroyed by a reflex
inducing effect would make for a short supply of magic items in the world.

But living beings getting them? Fie on that. I don't buy the extraordinary
circumstances and positioning bit. If you are incapable of any movement,
you cannot reflex yourself.
 
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tussock <scrub@clear.net.nz> wrote in news:4265deda@clear.net.nz:


>> Reflex no you cannot.
>
> Dude, that's silly, even unattended magic items get reflex saves,
> like helpless people they just have a -5 Dex mod.

People and creatures are not magic items.
 
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Mere moments before death, Matt Frisch hastily scrawled:
>On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 16:46:07 +1200, tussock <scrub@clear.net.nz> scribed
>into the ether:
>
>>freakybaby wrote:
>>> "Tristan" <miraumar@korinth.com> wrote in
>>> news:d434up$dd7@dispatch.concentric.net:
>
>>> Reflex no you cannot.
>>
>> Dude, that's silly, even unattended magic items get reflex saves,
>>like helpless people they just have a -5 Dex mod.
>
>I can see giving a magic item a save...since they (generally) aren't
>capable of movement at all, having them be auto-destroyed by a reflex
>inducing effect would make for a short supply of magic items in the world.
>
>But living beings getting them? Fie on that. I don't buy the extraordinary
>circumstances and positioning bit. If you are incapable of any movement,
>you cannot reflex yourself.

There are existing penalties that cover "incapable of any movement".
RTFM already.



Ed Chauvin IV

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use X = [(C2/10)^2], and RULE # 193 which is NOT meant to be read by
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modifier G @ 11.

"I always feel left out when someone *else* gets killfiled."
--Terry Austin
 
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Mere moments before death, freakybaby hastily scrawled:
>tussock <scrub@clear.net.nz> wrote in news:4265deda@clear.net.nz:
>
>
>>> Reflex no you cannot.
>>
>> Dude, that's silly, even unattended magic items get reflex saves,
>> like helpless people they just have a -5 Dex mod.
>
>People and creatures are not magic items.

Non sequitur. RTFM.



Ed Chauvin IV

--
DISCLAIMER : WARNING: RULE # 196 is X-rated in that to calculate L,
use X = [(C2/10)^2], and RULE # 193 which is NOT meant to be read by
kids, since RULE # 187 EXPLAINS homosexuality mathematically, using
modifier G @ 11.

"I always feel left out when someone *else* gets killfiled."
--Terry Austin
 
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Matt Frisch wrote:
> On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 16:46:07 +1200, tussock <scrub@clear.net.nz> scribed
> into the ether:
>
>
>>freakybaby wrote:
>>
>>>"Tristan" <miraumar@korinth.com> wrote in
>>>news:d434up$dd7@dispatch.concentric.net:
>
>
>>>Reflex no you cannot.
>>
>> Dude, that's silly, even unattended magic items get reflex saves,
>>like helpless people they just have a -5 Dex mod.
>
>
> I can see giving a magic item a save...since they (generally) aren't
> capable of movement at all, having them be auto-destroyed by a reflex
> inducing effect would make for a short supply of magic items in the world.
>
> But living beings getting them? Fie on that. I don't buy the extraordinary
> circumstances and positioning bit. If you are incapable of any movement,
> you cannot reflex yourself.

So you'd disallow Will saves to someone already under a mind-influencing
effect?
 
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"Some Guy" <someguy@thedoor.gov> wrote in message
news:uqf9e.56156$lz2.37405@fed1read07...
> Tristan wrote:
> > Can a character make a saving throw when unconscious?
> >
> Sure, why not? Helpless characters are allowed to make Reflex saves
> while unconscious,

Prove it.

-Michael
 
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Michael Scott Brown wrote:
> "Some Guy" <someguy@thedoor.gov> wrote in message
> news:uqf9e.56156$lz2.37405@fed1read07...
>
>>Tristan wrote:
>>
>>>Can a character make a saving throw when unconscious?
>>>
>>
>>Sure, why not? Helpless characters are allowed to make Reflex saves
>>while unconscious,
>
>
> Prove it.
>
> -Michael
>
>

From page 23 of the current FAQ:

"• If you’re helpless, your Dexterity score is effectively
0. You still can make Reflex saves, but your
Dexterity modifier is –5. You’re helpless whenever
you are paralyzed, unconscious, or asleep."
 
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"tussock" <scrub@clear.net.nz> wrote in message
news:4265deda@clear.net.nz...
> Dude, that's silly, even unattended magic items get reflex saves,
> like helpless people they just have a -5 Dex mod.

No, they don't. Magic items have one saving number for all their saves,
and they are not modified by stats of any kind (see rules on "nonability"
scores). When someone is holding them, either their net save bonus or the
item's is used, whichever is better. Stat bonuses don't figure in.

-Michael
 
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Tristan wrote:
> Can a character make a saving throw when unconscious?

Yes. Note that your Dexterity is effectively 0 while helpless, and that
some effects are useless against unconscious creatures (see thread for
details).

Also note that several official D&D products assume that you can affect
unconscious creatures with spells that only permit willing subjects. For
example, you can't normally affect a foe with a /teleport/ spell, which
targets "You and touched objects or other touched willing creatures,"
but you can teleport an unconscious foe. I'm not sure whether that's
book-legal, or if it's a misinterpretation based on the idea that
unconscious creatures are "objects."
--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd
 
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Mere moments before death, Bradd W. Szonye hastily scrawled:
>Tristan wrote:
>> Can a character make a saving throw when unconscious?
>
>Yes. Note that your Dexterity is effectively 0 while helpless, and that
>some effects are useless against unconscious creatures (see thread for
>details).
>
>Also note that several official D&D products assume that you can affect
>unconscious creatures with spells that only permit willing subjects. For
>example, you can't normally affect a foe with a /teleport/ spell, which
>targets "You and touched objects or other touched willing creatures,"
>but you can teleport an unconscious foe. I'm not sure whether that's
>book-legal, or if it's a misinterpretation based on the idea that
>unconscious creatures are "objects."

Unconscious creatures are not objects, creatures don't become objects
until they die. This seems to be one of those metagame things. You
should be able to allow the trusted party wizard to teleport you out
of danger if you're unconscious, but the game can't assume you're
"willing" to endure the effects of any spell cast on you when
unconscious.


Ed Chauvin IV

--
DISCLAIMER : WARNING: RULE # 196 is X-rated in that to calculate L,
use X = [(C2/10)^2], and RULE # 193 which is NOT meant to be read by
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modifier G @ 11.

"I always feel left out when someone *else* gets killfiled."
--Terry Austin
 
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On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 14:29:32 -0700, Some Guy <someguy@thedoor.gov> scribed
into the ether:

>Matt Frisch wrote:
>> On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 16:46:07 +1200, tussock <scrub@clear.net.nz> scribed
>> into the ether:
>>>freakybaby wrote:
>>>
>>>>"Tristan" <miraumar@korinth.com> wrote in
>>>>news:d434up$dd7@dispatch.concentric.net:
>>
>>
>>>>Reflex no you cannot.
>>>
>>> Dude, that's silly, even unattended magic items get reflex saves,
>>>like helpless people they just have a -5 Dex mod.
>>
>>
>> I can see giving a magic item a save...since they (generally) aren't
>> capable of movement at all, having them be auto-destroyed by a reflex
>> inducing effect would make for a short supply of magic items in the world.
>>
>> But living beings getting them? Fie on that. I don't buy the extraordinary
>> circumstances and positioning bit. If you are incapable of any movement,
>> you cannot reflex yourself.
>
>So you'd disallow Will saves to someone already under a mind-influencing
>effect?

Would depend a lot on what the effects in question were (the current
influence effect, and the new one to be saved against), but as a general
statement: I'd allow it. Being under someone else's control doesn't mean
you lack the ability to defend against something else.
 
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Matt Frisch wrote:
> On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 14:29:32 -0700, Some Guy <someguy@thedoor.gov> scribed
> into the ether:
>
>
>>Matt Frisch wrote:
>>
>>>On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 16:46:07 +1200, tussock <scrub@clear.net.nz> scribed
>>>into the ether:
>>>
>>>>freakybaby wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>"Tristan" <miraumar@korinth.com> wrote in
>>>>>news:d434up$dd7@dispatch.concentric.net:
>>>
>>>
>>>>>Reflex no you cannot.
>>>>
>>>> Dude, that's silly, even unattended magic items get reflex saves,
>>>>like helpless people they just have a -5 Dex mod.
>>>
>>>
>>>I can see giving a magic item a save...since they (generally) aren't
>>>capable of movement at all, having them be auto-destroyed by a reflex
>>>inducing effect would make for a short supply of magic items in the world.
>>>
>>>But living beings getting them? Fie on that. I don't buy the extraordinary
>>>circumstances and positioning bit. If you are incapable of any movement,
>>>you cannot reflex yourself.
>>
>>So you'd disallow Will saves to someone already under a mind-influencing
>>effect?
>
>
> Would depend a lot on what the effects in question were (the current
> influence effect, and the new one to be saved against), but as a general
> statement: I'd allow it. Being under someone else's control doesn't mean
> you lack the ability to defend against something else.
>

But that's what your position suggests. If Mongo the sorcerer has already
cast "Charm ..." on your character, and he says it's a good idea to just not
fight the effect of the next spell, by your lights your character shouldn't
have a chane to resist. If you are incapable of fighting off his Will, how
can you make another Will save?

That's why it's better to let characters make their saves, even if they
have to
do it at a penalty. Especially in a heroic fantasy game, you're
following the
game's assumptions more closely.
 
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On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 20:55:35 -0700, Some Guy <someguy@thedoor.gov> scribed
into the ether:

>Matt Frisch wrote:
>> On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 14:29:32 -0700, Some Guy <someguy@thedoor.gov> scribed
>> into the ether:
>>
>>>Matt Frisch wrote:
>>>>I can see giving a magic item a save...since they (generally) aren't
>>>>capable of movement at all, having them be auto-destroyed by a reflex
>>>>inducing effect would make for a short supply of magic items in the world.
>>>>
>>>>But living beings getting them? Fie on that. I don't buy the extraordinary
>>>>circumstances and positioning bit. If you are incapable of any movement,
>>>>you cannot reflex yourself.
>>>
>>>So you'd disallow Will saves to someone already under a mind-influencing
>>>effect?
>>
>>
>> Would depend a lot on what the effects in question were (the current
>> influence effect, and the new one to be saved against), but as a general
>> statement: I'd allow it. Being under someone else's control doesn't mean
>> you lack the ability to defend against something else.
>>
>
>But that's what your position suggests.

I'm not sure how, since my position is on helpless reflex saves, and
doesn't relate to will saves at all.

> If Mongo the sorcerer has already
>cast "Charm ..." on your character, and he says it's a good idea to just not
>fight the effect of the next spell, by your lights your character shouldn't
>have a chane to resist. If you are incapable of fighting off his Will, how
>can you make another Will save?

A fallacious example...the simple order of "don't try to resist this next
spell" would compel a save against the charm itself, since it is an order
to act against interest. You do not surrender your free will while charmed.

Even when Dominated, victims are under no obligation to fulfill such
insanely stupid requests.

If you are under the influence of something that truely and utterly
cripples your mind to the same degree that laying on the floor unconcious
cripples your movement, then no, you would not get a will save. Of course,
in that situation, there wouldn't be *be* a will to save, so I'd rule that
the spell had no possibility of working. You can't charm monster on a black
pudding, after all. It has nothing *to* charm.

>That's why it's better to let characters make their saves, even if they
>have to do it at a penalty.

So, then you'd support requiring someone performing a coup-de-grace to make
a to-hit roll against the target, but with the target's AC reduced a bit?
 
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Mere moments before death, Matt Frisch hastily scrawled:
>
>I am however, not wrong.

Your complete refusal to support your position with logic is duly
noted.



Ed Chauvin IV

--
DISCLAIMER : WARNING: RULE # 196 is X-rated in that to calculate L,
use X = [(C2/10)^2], and RULE # 193 which is NOT meant to be read by
kids, since RULE # 187 EXPLAINS homosexuality mathematically, using
modifier G @ 11.

"I always feel left out when someone *else* gets killfiled."
--Terry Austin
 
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"David Johnston" <rgorman@telusplanet.net> wrote in message
news:4267102b.56814326@news.telusplanet.net...
> On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 08:16:49 GMT, "Michael Scott Brown"
> >> Because the fighter's "luck" is also represented by his greater number
> >> of hit points?
> >
> > No, that's his toughness and training.
>
> How does his training help with soaking up that fireball while lying
> paralysed on the ground?

Which is why I think such situations should be treated as coups.

-Michael
 
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Bradd W. Szonye wrote:
> Also note that several official D&D products assume that you can affect
> unconscious creatures with spells that only permit willing subjects. For
> example, you can't normally affect a foe with a /teleport/ spell, which
> targets "You and touched objects or other touched willing creatures,"
> but you can teleport an unconscious foe. I'm not sure whether that's
> book-legal, or if it's a misinterpretation based on the idea that
> unconscious creatures are "objects."

That's probably an extension of healing the unconcious; if they
weren't willing they'd get a save. It's silly though, as that's taken
from being able to automatically fail any will save you want to, that's
what (harmless) entries represent.
That line of reasoning leads to unconcious characters either
resisting or auto-failing /every/ spell. Perhaps best not to think about it.

--
tussock

Aspie at work, sorry in advance.