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How fast is sufficient?

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October 29, 2001 7:07:30 AM

I am building a computer for my girlfriend and thought I'd come here for some advice...So, what would you consider the best price/performance/longevity processor to buy for her? She is not by any means a power user and wants a computer that will last long, but still with a reasonable price tag. She will use it mostly for taking work home (excel, word and access), but may (you know what girlfriends are like;) buy a digital camera ("maybe a video camera", ...sigh!) and wants the ability to do some video/picture editing, nothing to serious though. She also thinks that my fan is too loud, so it should be fairly quiet (need help for that one).
The setup I was thinking was something like:
CPU: Athlon XP 1600 at 125, but the 1+GHz's cost 40-50 less. Duron 1GHz 70 less.
MOBO: ECS K7S5A or nForce if it comes out soon
RAM: 256mb DDR
Fan&HS: Need help on a quiet one
HD: 40gb 7200rpm (worth the 25 extra)
GFX: Either integrated with nForce or my GF2 Pro (so I can get GF3;)
DVD and CDR (CompUsa have a QPS 24/10/40 CDRW for $100, is it any good?)
Have a decent antec case.

I am not opposed to Intel, but figured she'd get more for her money with AMD. I know the nForce release is some time off, but is it likely to be postponed again? Lastly, any comments and tips on this setup are appreciated, what I think is barely enough, might be overkill for her.

Thanks for all your help
DEV

Legalize lutefisk (UFF DA).

More about : fast sufficient

October 29, 2001 8:36:03 AM

1.2ghz thunderbird, is perfect for the girlfriend pc. More than a ghz so you dont come off as a cheap bastard, and not so fast to require loud heatsinks.

~Matisaro~
"The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark"
~Tbird1.3@1.5~
Anonymous
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October 29, 2001 10:21:23 AM

Hmmm, "Drools"

PC+VIDEOCAM+GIRLFRIEND=WHOAAA

:o )
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October 29, 2001 11:44:12 AM

Heck! 1ghz or 1.1ghz Duron should be sufficient for her PC. If she was doing a LOT of video editing and image editing, then a higher speed XP (1500-1800) would be a better choice. BUT, for what she is doing, the Duron would be fine. In 3-6 months you can upgrade her to an XP if she wants more power.

For most everyday tasks, an 800mhz system should suffice for an average user, even, so you are giving her 25% or so more than necessary.

Mark-

When all else fails, throw your computer out the window!!!
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
October 29, 2001 1:38:26 PM

I've heard the alpha heatsink is a pretty good model. You want heatsinks and fans check here.

<A HREF="http://www.3dfxcool.com" target="_new">3dfx cool</A>

I thought now I'm a nimble knuckle I should start posting at least 1 post a month dedicated to helping some one - I just happened to know the answer to your question.

Yo Norman - Kick up a STORM.
<A HREF="mailto:techie2000@supanet.com">techie2000@supanet.com</A>
October 29, 2001 9:18:28 PM

Kinda makes your mind race, doesn't it :)  Thanks, for answering so quickly, and thanks for the link techie.
Dev

Legalize lutefisk (UFF DA).
October 29, 2001 11:16:00 PM

You pay more for slower chip when you buy a XP cpu, so you might as well buy her a Intel based machine. less hassels in the long run, highest compatability, and stability.

You can save money going with DDR P4 mobo, P4 is best for video.

Also, you might want to ask her what she wants.

1.5Ghz P4 is $127
1600 XP is $124 (AMD approved PSU extra, beefy HSF optional extra)

DDR motherboard $89 for AMD or Intel.

The rest of the parts are up to you. $3 difference. you pay more for PSU and HSF on AMD based systems, essentially paying more for whole system if parts were all the same.
The sad thing is you paying more for problems associated with AMD.

Ok, now its time for the lemmings to discredit me and call me a liar "there are no problems with AMD".
October 29, 2001 11:53:19 PM

A few things to clear up:

1) P4's consume more power than Athlons. A 2.0GHz P4 consumes more power <i>on average</i> <A HREF="http://developer.intel.com/design/pentium4/datashts/249..." target="_new">(76W)</A> than a 1.4GHz T-bird consumes at its worst <A HREF="http://www.amd.com/us-en/assets/content_type/white_pape..." target="_new">(72W)</A>. As such, a P4 requires the same class of power supply as an Athlon.

2) P4's run as hot or hotter than Athlons. Just ask all the P4 owners about their temps at the <A HREF="http://www.hardforum.com/" target="_new">[H]ardOCP forums</A>. A lot of them have P4's running in the 50's and 60's. Athlon owners, on the other hand, are generally able to keep their CPU temperatures between 40-50C (sometimes lower). The P4 has the advantage of built-in thermal protection; this would be slightly more impressive if it didn't need that protection so badly.

3) And of course, the AthlonXP 1600 royally rips the P4 1.5GHz in just about everything--probably even Q3A. Face it, the AthlonXP generally beats the P4 even when its PR rating is 200 "PR points" behind the P4's MHz. Relevant benchmarks can be found at <A HREF="http://www.anandtech.com/cpu/showdoc.html?i=1543" target="_new">AnandTech</A> and <A HREF="http://www.aceshardware.com/read.jsp?id=45000224" target="_new">Ace's Hardware</A>.

Kelledin

"/join #hackerz. See the Web. DoS interesting people."
October 29, 2001 11:54:43 PM

Dude, wtf. There are no problems with AMD systems. My friend has a P4 and the thing endlessly pisses him off. Oh yeah, and don't compare the 1.5 Ghz P4 to a XP1600- it makes a mockery out of it.

U got a problem?! Then dial 1800-328-7448!
October 30, 2001 12:06:25 AM

My signature says it all =)

Hey Baby, I'll install YOUR RAM, only if you boot my Hard drive!
October 30, 2001 12:08:30 AM

It's your call and it would be extremely hard to find a benchmark where a 1.5GHz P4 outperforms the Athlon XP 1600+. If you look at the benchmarks, the Athlon XP beats the P4 2GHz in some cases. It's not fair to compare the prices of the 1.5GHz P4 and the 1600+ Athlon XP because the Athlon XP will significantly outperform the P4 in most tasks. If his girlfriend isn't into computers much then she wouldn't be doing video editing and even then the Pentium 4 and the Athlon XP are now closer than ever and the XP will most likely beat the 1.5GHz P4. I can personally guarantee you that you will get 100% compatibility with an AMD processor and 100% stability (if that's even possible with Windows, which it isn't, but at least the hardware will be perfectly stable). If you're not overclocking you don't need a high-speed HSF. The retail one will work perfectly. Also, if you aren't installing a lot of internal hardware, you don't need a really good PSU. The same goes for a P4. If you want to overclock you need a certified PSU and a good HSF. Fugger, AMD users don't buy loud fans because they need to, they buy them because they want to. The people who buy AMD processors with Enermax PSUs and huge HSFs want the hassle because it's fun!!! You can get a DDR motherboard for $60 for the AMD platform. The ECS K75SA (is that the right model name?) costs $60 and outperforms some motherboards nearly twice it's price and all with 100% stability.

Please Fugger, it really upsets me when you confuse new buyers with all this nonesense. Fugger, I don't want to insult you by calling you a liar because it is in my nature to be a problem solver not a problem maker. I don't believe looking at only the pros of one product and the cons of another is a good way to compare products and claim superiority. Here are my completely unbiased Pros and Cons of Athlon XPs vs Pentium 4s:

Athlon XP:
Pros
- Extremely fast for the price
- Has a wide variety of supporting chipsets to choose from
- Very good price/performance
- Produces up to 20% less heat at the same clock speed as a Thunderbird

Cons
- Uses a considerable amount of wattage (less than 2GHz P4 however)
- heat can be a problem if overclocking
- possible stability problems with older KT133A motherboards with the 686B southbridge (if you're getting a DDR motherboard, this won't affect you)
- if motherboard doesn't support the XP's thermal diode, a heatsink and fan must always be attached
- Core might damaged if heatsink is not placed on CPU properly (this is very uncommon but known to happen)

Pentium 4

Pros
- Lots of bandwidth with dual-channel RDRAM
- has high clock speeds (not necessarily translating to performance however)
- SSE2 instructions
- effective 400MHz FSB
- thermal protection

Cons
- slower than an equivalent Athlon XP
- only 3 or 4 major chipsets currently available
- extremely expensive (especially 2GHz P4 which is 3 times higher priced than the equavalient Athlon XP, while it is ~5% slower based on most benchmarks)
- Most motherboards use SDRAM or RDRAM (very difficult to find and purchase DDR-based motherboards)
- can also heat up, but thermal protection guarantees it won't burn the CPU but it may reduce CPU life without better than retail fan cooling (this isn't confirmed however so please do not comment on this note as I am not completely sure)

Now that you have your facts straight, you make the call. I don't care what you get as long as you're an educated buyer and know this is right for you. I'm not advertising AMD or Intel; in fact, my signature is promoting the unity of both AMD and Intel technology. Although this will probably never happen unless Intel buys out AMD or the opposite, I will always dream of a united future. Speaking of united, if we had a united world government, we wouldn't be having this war against terrorism. Unity and harmony leads to peace and contentment. Let's pray that this stupid mess with Bin Laden gets solved and we get semi-"world peace" again.

AMD technology + Intel technology = Intel/AMD Pentathlon IV; the <b>ULTIMATE</b> PC processor
October 30, 2001 10:45:37 AM

AMD, remember what I said about Meltdown, FUGGER is meltdowns mentor...just give it up man.

~Matisaro~
"The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark"
~Tbird1.3@1.5~
October 30, 2001 11:06:06 AM

Well, I can always try. Perhaps I need to study psychology. Anyway, does it look like I'm trolling? NO, at least in my opinion, my post was 99.9% unbiased. If I'm wrong then I'm deeply sorry.

AMD technology + Intel technology = Intel/AMD Pentathlon IV; the <b>ULTIMATE</b> PC processor
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
October 30, 2001 12:03:38 PM

In this special case I would actually consider buying a Duron 1GHz (Palomino core, for the video editing!), underclock it (Yeah!!) by 100 to 200 MHz, lower core voltage 0.1V, and put a good copper heatsink on top (barely needs any fan at all...). Choose a KT266A MB!

There is nothing stopping you to OC'ing the FSB to, say, 136MHz (no prob for Palomino core, Duron or not). For example 136*6.5=884MHz. Would probably beat a P4 1.5 on a i845 motherboard...

***A-Man***

...is it?...NO, it's AnotherMan...
October 30, 2001 12:54:00 PM

Very well put AMD Man.

I personaly will admit to being slightly biased towards Athlons, but that has come from experience with them. That said, any computer purchase I would make I would reserach each and every part till I knew exactly what I wanted.

Different people have different views, different needs, and different biases. It takes a strong man to be willing to admit that the other side has some valid points.

Now, on the issue of a good, long lasting system...

I would recomend an XP 1600+ with either the standard heat sink, or the Volcano 6 Cu (Good for standard, non-overclocking systems and quite affordable).

If she is truely serious about video editing, the ATI all-in-wonder cards might be a good option, Or one of the Asus Delux cards (v7700 should be fine). If she's not, get a Geforce2, probably MX400. A MB with built in sound should be perfect for her too.

60 FPS, 70 FPS, 80 FPS Crash!
Daylight comes and I have to go to work :frown:
October 30, 2001 12:56:44 PM

You werent trolling, but fugger, meltdown, intel inside are not gonna be reasoned with, they are trolls, plain and simple.

~Matisaro~
"The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark"
~Tbird1.3@1.5~
October 30, 2001 10:27:37 PM

Sounds to me like any of the systems mentioned would be fine. I have a 400MHZ laptop and it is fine. If you really want a very quiet and very cool system look at what Apple is selling. Apple sells a cube with no fan (quiet) and it looks really cool. Their cinema display rocks too.

Don't wanna go that way? Better talk to her first. Get what ever she wants even if she only likes it cause it is orange. I personally like the XP but if she prefers the Intel label then get an Intel. All the speed differences ain't gonna matter near as much as her perception of quality. If you go shopping with her I can only offer the following advice. Drink heavy before you go.

I went shopping with a girl once and we got an orange Compaq because --- you guessed it! It was orange.

Remember if you ain't Muslim you ain't Shiite.
October 31, 2001 6:03:02 AM

Antec SX840 (400W powersupply) or SX1040 (bigger)
ECS K7S5A (onboard sound and lan are fine)
Crucial PC2100 DDR (256MB-512MB)
IBM 60GXP 7200 RPM (40GB should be fine)
Thermaltake 6cu (30 dba according to box)
Give her your Pro and get a GF3 :) 
DVD and CDR - I hate compusa; have you ever shopped there?
I like the HP-CDRW's though. I've had a toshiba dvd-rom for years and it works great

As for the CPU this is up to you. I can get a 1 Ghz on the K7S5A up to 1125 Mhz using their modified bios so I went that route. The prices are pretty cheap so I wouldn't bother getting a Duron when you can get a Tbird for dirt cheap anyways. The P4 is a good processor as well, but it isn't up to par with the athlon in my opinion. It's overpriced if you buy based on performance rather than mhz anyways.

I basically gave you the description of my system so I'd definitely recommend it. I just upgraded and it cost me less than $650 with 512 MB of memory and the SX1040. I had the DVD and CDRW though and had to buy a videocard.

<font color=red>God</font color=red> <font color=blue>Bless</font color=blue> <font color=red>America!</font color=red><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by dhlucke on 10/31/01 00:04 AM.</EM></FONT></P>
October 31, 2001 10:04:15 AM

My girlfriend read your post and now she keeps bugging me for an orange computer..lol. Anyways, I have the Antec SX1040 already, and she has decided to wait until next month and will give me $800 to build her the thing including the monitor. A month is a long time nowadays, but for now the setup looks to be.
Antec Case $0
GF2 Pro $0
ECS K7S5a $70
Tbird 1.2Ghz $90
Crucial 256 $30
A Socket-AHO HSF from 1coolpc (formerly 3dfxcool). Has anyone had any experience with this one? It's supposed to be really quiet. It's only 19 bucks.
40 GB hard drive (are there any you recommend?) $~100
Toshiba 16 x DVD $70
Ricoh 7200a 20/10/40 CDRW $110

All prices include shipping.

This adds up to about 500. Leaves about 300 for monitor (not decided yet) and devices. Looking good?

Dev

Only users loose drugs!<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by dev on 10/31/01 04:05 AM.</EM></FONT></P>
October 31, 2001 11:24:45 AM

For that 40 gig harddrive get the IBM deskstar 60gxp, very quiet and very fast, 100 bucks for 40 gig.

~Matisaro~
"The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark"
~Tbird1.3@1.5~
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
October 31, 2001 8:42:23 PM

Quote:

AMD_MAN
Speaking of united, if we had a united world government, we wouldn't be having this war against terrorism. Unity and harmony leads to peace and contentment. Let's pray that this stupid mess with Bin Laden gets solved and we get semi-"world peace" again.


Good thing we don't have a "united world government".
-Mike
October 31, 2001 8:55:27 PM

lol, I meant that if all the governments in the world agreed on a single set of laws and rules, there wouldn't be problems like we're having now. It's the conflicting laws of different countries that leads to war. Of course, cultural freedom would be given to individuals, but not supported on a national level. I guess I'm thinking about the Federation in Star Trek. The way there's a united government in Star Trke is amazing. Rather than saying I'm American or I'm Canadian, I'd say I'm human or I'm a terrene. Now that what I call unity!!! A bit far feteched, I know, but I can always dream.

AMD technology + Intel technology = Intel/AMD Pentathlon IV; the <b>ULTIMATE</b> PC processor
October 31, 2001 9:21:50 PM

Different laws are creating all this? What country has laws that terrorism is ok and you should kill thousands of innocent people?

It's brainwashed zealots and corrupt governments that cause war.

<font color=orange>Quarter</font color=orange> <font color=blue>Pounder</font color=blue> <font color=orange>Inside</font color=orange>
October 31, 2001 9:29:41 PM

Quote:

It's brainwashed zealots and corrupt governments that cause war.

Exactly what I'm saying. If all laws were universal, corrupt governments couldn't exist.

AMD technology + Intel technology = Intel/AMD Pentathlon IV; the <b>ULTIMATE</b> PC processor
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
October 31, 2001 9:32:20 PM

Well, I am proud to be an American, and agree with what FatBurger said. One more thing, the USA already has some of the best laws in the world, and I like the idea of nations being sovereign states.
-Mike
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
October 31, 2001 9:47:02 PM

"Ok, now its time for the lemmings to discredit me and call me a liar "there are no problems with AMD"."

Perhaps if you were to come up with a more considered and intelligent opinion, then no-one would be able to discredit you, at least not as easily as with your current nonsensical rantings.

Your current position of "I have an Intel chip so they must be better." simply displays a lack of understanding and maturity on your part. Time to get reading!!!
October 31, 2001 9:54:43 PM

Quote:
If all laws were universal, corrupt governments couldn't exist.


I disagree. Governments aren't corrupt because they have wrong laws, they are corrupt because they don't follow the laws.

<font color=orange>Quarter</font color=orange> <font color=blue>Pounder</font color=blue> <font color=orange>Inside</font color=orange>
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
October 31, 2001 10:05:15 PM

So true.
October 31, 2001 10:49:38 PM

Which government is totally immune from corruptness?
Which country has a "complete set" of laws that are acceptable, let alone exemplary?
Who would create the laws?
Who will enforce the laws?
Who will uphold the laws?

most importantly, who will rise up against those laws?


You see... If you look clearly even at the most liberal of countries, and the laws within, you will find an aspect of totalitariansim.

<font color=purple>I apologise to the originator of this thread for carrying on with something off topic.</font color=purple>


<font color=red><i>Poor is the pupil, who does not surpass his mentor</i> - Leonardo daVinci</font color=red>
November 1, 2001 1:13:22 AM

One mans terrorist is another mans *freedom fighter*

Ok.. replace man with country in the above sentence.

What is the definition of a terrorist? This still hasn't been determined and it really depends on your perspective.

Here's an example:

US and Israel consider PFLP, Hizbollah and Hamas to be terrorist organizations.

Most countries in the Middle East consider them to be *freedom fighters*

So who is right? What's an agreed upon definition of terrorism?

AND has anyone noticed that in the Bush Administrations *list* of terrorist organizations these organizations are not listed?

Does this mean the US has decided to change them to freedom fighters from terrorist organizations?

And this is getting Waaaay off topic.

Mark-



When all else fails, throw your computer out the window!!!
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
November 1, 2001 6:50:30 PM

The USA already has a comlpete set of laws, which is exemplary.

Another thing, all the countries in the world would <b>never</b> agree on a single set of laws.
November 1, 2001 7:19:13 PM

Quote:
The USA already has a comlpete set of laws, which is exemplary.


No offense, but that is a very poor argument. Many people worldwide disagree with laws of the US. Can you say you agree with all the laws we have?
What about the people that break into houses, slip and fall, and then are awarded money because they were injured on other people's properties?
Small example.

<font color=orange>Quarter</font color=orange> <font color=blue>Pounder</font color=blue> <font color=orange>Inside</font color=orange>
November 1, 2001 7:58:48 PM

This is kinda double off topic... regarding your sig.

The other day I got so pissed off. My CD-RW drives tray just ejected for some unknown reason and would not go back in. The eject/retract button just makes the tray move a mm and stop. It could not even be forced back in, it was jammed real good. I was trying to fix something else so was already fustrated. So for some reason I decided to get the writer out of the computer. walk all the way to the tool shed, come back with a hammer and "fix it"...

Felt realy good afterwards. :lol:  Lost a £200 and something drive though. Although its probably less than £50 these days.


back to the semi-topic.

1200mike:

Quote:

The USA already has a comlpete set of laws, which is exemplary.



Most people here know what I think of most of the US laws...

Look at the DMCA laws which are currently in the process of getting even more "corporate friendly"!

<font color=red><i>Poor is the pupil, who does not surpass his mentor</i> - Leonardo daVinci</font color=red>
November 2, 2001 5:31:02 AM

This is even more off topic.

Have you ever just driven down the street and thought about the fact that United States metropolitan areas look like alien nations to people from third world countries? It's so clean and there are tens of thousands of $50,000 cars just lining the streets. You can pull into a shopping mall and buy just about anything, you can pick up a phone and call just about anyone, you can stand in the middle of the street and say just about anything. You can go anywhere and you can do anything.

Compared to watching a little kid ride a bike for the first time I've had the joy of seeing some really good friends and loved ones come over to the USA for the first time. It was an amazing sight to look at them as they experienced a lot of this stuff. Sure some of our opportunities, like walking into a wholesale warehouse store and buying food by the truckload, is just glutonous, but others, like going to Disneyland or driving cross country for thousands of miles with nobody bothering you is just great. Watching an adult see the pacific ocean for the first time was a really fun experience. Telling someone that, yes, they can go to school and study whatever they want shouldn't be a big deal. It is though if you can't do that back home.

At the same time we have stupid laws because of all these freedoms. We have specific laws to deal with really stupid people. It's sad that we have to do that. But with all the stuff we can do and see here we protect our rights by trying to make everything black and white. I suppose it's important for chainsaw manufactures to inform their customers that stopping the blades with their hands can cause serious injury. Or it might just be another one of those rights we have that they have to protect themselves from: the right to sue anybody for anything. At least we all have unlimited oportunities and rights though.

So now we're having to deal with people from a third world country, where they have nothing, have no need for all these laws we have since they have nothing to protect or have no rights to protect. We're fighting our opposites. These people don't value the same things as us or even understand us. We're aliens as far as they're concerned and they're waging war on us like the most primitive instincts human beings have: destroy that which you don't understand and which you don't agree with.

Education is the key, but they don't have that right or oportunity over there. How sad.

<font color=red>God</font color=red> <font color=blue>Bless</font color=blue> <font color=red>America!</font color=red>
November 2, 2001 12:25:20 PM

"Education is the key, but they don't have that right or oportunity over there. How sad."

And free press is also important. Having recently visited Iran, I can say several thinkgs about Iran which most people never really hear on the news.

Iran is a relatively clean country. People are generally well educated and they are taking major steps in improving the economy as well as improving freedoms...too slowly according to most younger people (under 25-30)


However, the press is VERY government controlled.
Highways and even city streets are a study in chaos/anarchy...they have a high death rate due to traffic deaths (65,000 people died in highway fatalities last year)
Roads are generally VERY well maintained, with 4 lane roads in most areas and even wider boulevards throughout the major cities.

So, while I am impressed with many things they seem to be doing right there, I am also very concerned by these issues and the very strong government propaganda machine.

Mark-

When all else fails, throw your computer out the window!!!
November 2, 2001 2:46:20 PM

Wow, I'm sorry to Dev for taking this thread extremely off topic.

AMD technology + Intel technology = Intel/AMD Pentathlon IV; the <b>ULTIMATE</b> PC processor
November 2, 2001 3:39:28 PM

WellAMD Man.. I didn't exactly help put it back ON topic, now did I!

So let me also apologize for the OT posting :x

Mark-


When all else fails, throw your computer out the window!!!
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
November 2, 2001 5:05:12 PM

Main Entry: ex·em·pla·ry
Pronunciation: ig-'zem-pl&-rE
Function: adjective
Date: 1589
1 a : serving as a pattern b : deserving imitation

I didn't say that US laws were perfect, but I still think they are exemplary. You are right, there are quite a few crazy laws, and there are also activist judges who interpret laws in way they were never intended to be.

Can you think of a country, which has better laws than the US?
November 2, 2001 9:59:05 PM

UK.
France.
+ other Western European Nations.


<font color=red><i>Poor is the pupil, who does not surpass his mentor</i> - Leonardo daVinci</font color=red>
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
November 2, 2001 10:04:03 PM

I could not disagree with you more. How are the UK's and France's laws better than the US??
November 2, 2001 11:05:55 PM

I know what you are talking about here... to an extent. I was born in bangladesh, but only 'cos my parents happened to be there at the time. They were already 2nd gen Brit citizens.

Perhaps I was lucky enough not to be born into one of the families you speak of, since most people in my family for a few generations have been well educated in Bangladesh and with Higher education in Europe. Not that I'm not thankful for my life, cos I don't think I'll ever be able to get a £40ph contract over there. (Got a new job btw :lol:  )

I do know a lot of people see Europe and the US as a Dreamland compared to what they have, but unfortunately most of them have in Bangladesh what they would over here or in the US. They just fail to see it. There are of course some people that get opportunities they would never get in 3rd world.

Also, Possessing the <A HREF="http://www.bdcom-online.com/tourplan/coxsbazr.htm" target="_new">longest west facing beach</A> in the world in cox's bazar, I don't think they'd see the ocean sunset for the first time in the pacific.

Now thats advertising for my country, but most of the people from most 3rd World countries aren't the uneducated, ignorant, primitive people the Americans percieve them to be. I won't say West here, as the rest of the West, i.e. Europe has a very different view.

Most of what they see on TV is America, so to them, you're country isn't as alien to them as you might think. Bangladesh, for example, has been getting unrestricted 24 hour CNN since the Gulf War. They've also been getting BBC Asia and BBC World Service for several years now.

Also, the propaganda machine in the 3rd World isn't as good as that of the west. A lot of them did and still do have state controlled TV and Radio. Some of the Arab states for example had state controlled media, but since Al Jazeera (an international channel, much like CNN of the middle east) started broadcasting on Satellite, the states got a bit worried and now are relaxing their strangle hold on their national media. And also, most of the new generations have learned to take their governments word with a grain of salt.

But you see, a lot of the people that turn to extremism are educated people, who think for them selves. they're not the drones that most western leaders have jumped out to claim. When asked why these attacks happen, the american leaders say, because those are uneducated people who blindly follow mad men who are jealous of the US. So it is not "we destroy what we do not understand". In fact I wouldn't say the US at all understands the middle east and a lot of the rest of the world. And they certainly have been aggressive with the countries with which they disagree.

For instance, alsmost all the countries in that region the US has faught or is fighting with, was a US ally in the past. It was a country which the US used to launch attack against other countries. That shows a huge lack of understanding on the part of the US in it self.

In the UK when the government does or says something, and the people don't feel they're totally toe to toe with it, they'll question it. In america, usually the general attitude is "my commander and chief has set the path and I'm ready to walk it." That is something I find dangerous.

Put on top of that, the US' foreign policy and the ignorance of the average american to what goes on in the outside world, we have bad situations turning for the worse. Weapons exports, deliberate sanctions, Unconditional support without question for questionable states i.e. Israel a state that openly opresses another culture and braggs about it.

For example, What do you think this global alliance has achieved so far in "enduring freedom"? the leaders say it has been extremely successful, but unable to point out successful in what. The people in the UK have are starting to question whether the strategists for this war know what they're doing. After all there will be the SAS and several hundred marine commandos going in, and we already have battleships and support aircraft in the scene. How is the consensus in the US? There don't seem to be that many polls published on CNN anymore. The people here are fustrated with how things are turning out, and that all other countries are just giving token support, so in the end it is just the US with main support from the UK.

They're also upset at the facts that, All these bombings with minor results. First day of war there were 50 Tomahawks at £750,000 a piece thats £37.5m just in cruise missiles in the first day! Do you think Al qaeeda have lost a tiny fraction of that. And now the main focus has moved from catching bin laden to hitting the taliban. But again, how successful has that been? What about the "collateral damage" i.e. the death of the innocent people and destruction of property (two red cross stations, one red cresent clinic, one hospital, one village including a school have been confirmed by independent sources). And now the pentagon running a competition for suggestions on how the Afghanistan campaing should go on...

Now when we come back to the domestic laws, what would you say is different in the US laws that allows so many "moronic" lawsuits to be flying around than in the UK? Also why do huge corporations need "protection" from the consumers through dangerous legal policies such as the DMCA?

<font color=red><i>Poor is the pupil, who does not surpass his mentor</i> - Leonardo daVinci</font color=red>
November 3, 2001 10:45:31 AM

Dev, I just thought of this.

1.2ghz will make her happy, but xp1800+ will get you laid, the choice is clear young jedi.

~Matisaro~
"The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark"
~Tbird1.3@1.5~
November 4, 2001 12:16:54 AM

Again, wusy, you do not have to have a loud fan to keep the athlon cool, the stock heatsink is perfectly quiet and perfectly sufficient for non overclocked athlons.

~Matisaro~
"The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark"
~Tbird1.3@1.5~
November 4, 2001 8:56:00 AM

No offence taken AMD_man and Zengeos! I rather enjoy this OT as I am foreign poltical science major waiting for my work permit. I'm from Oslo, Norway, and lived two and a half years in WA and going on my third in CA. Here are my thought's on various topics already raised (in no particular order):
1. US LAWS: Many foreigners see American laws as being very unfair. Money rules the day, and blacks are more likely to get higher prison sentences, especially if they are poor. Mentally retarded people are not spared death sentences, nor are children, who can arbitrarily be sentenced as adults.
However: The American judicial system is built on a very comlex base of Federal, State and local laws, with a mix of common and code based laws. Nevertheless, all of these laws can rapidly be overturned by the surpreme court (and lesser courts) due to one of the greatest documents in history, The Constitution. Due to the complex code/common tradition, and even more the principle of checks and balances, judges enjoy exceptional powers of freedom in ruling on cases. Most, if not all, other nations have a judicial system that is less flexible, which leaves the US Judicial system, IMHO, the best, but also the one more prone to the events that foreigners tend to judge the whole system by. All the while, I am proud to come from a country where a life sentence is 21 years and everyone serves only 2/3 of their sentences. (there are special cases where people are kept imprisoned for more than 21 years, but these measures are constantly revised and monitored.)

2. American Education: This still baffles me!! America has some of the best universities, brightest people and amazing access to information. Yet the public school system is terrible, and about 10% of college (counting CC's and AAs) graduates are illiterate, and as many as 20% of the adult population are illiterate. Most foreigners (at least most Europeans) find Americans very ignorant, and you guys elected Bush Jr. as president :0
Nevertheless, some of the brightest people I've ever met were American, and to the rest of the world's people: If we are so much smarter, howcome we don't rule the world?

3. America as an empire: Face it, America is an imperialistic super power which does exactly as it wants. Yes, America meddles in other peoples' business, and yes, it pisses us foreigners off!
BUT, there will always be one nation (or union ;)  that is stronger than everybody else, and there always have been. Would we foreigners prefer the UK? Ask India, or other former British colonies! Japan? Ask Korea who they prefer, or even the Chinese. Germany? *sounds of gas, screams and iron heels*. Russia? China? Belgium? Rwanda for that matter?The fact remains that old US of A is a _very_ benign leader compared to other empires.

4. The War: The US was very hurt by the Vietnam war, and so we have seen a change in the way America wages war. WW II to the Korean war IMHO showed how America should approach war. Beat the hell out of the enemy, then make the enemy an ally. Japan, Germany, South-Korea (although this one is questionable), are now democracies because of the US. Imagine if the US could build a peaceful government in Afghanistan. What a legacy! Peace in a country for the first time in a few millenia. (BTW, thanks to George Marshall, and the rest of the US, Norway could afford to invest in the North Sea and went from poor to rich. Thank you, America!)

5. Foreigners bashing America: If you're here, GET OUT! If you haven't been here please visit! Americans not understanding that other countries can be as great a place to live as America, TRAVEL!

Lastly, Matisaro, I don't think I need to buy her a computer at all;)

Dev

Only users loose drugs!
November 4, 2001 11:33:18 AM

Dev, you seem to concur with my impressions from other Europeans and Chinese, Indians, Nepalese, Thai, Bhuanese and Iranians!

Haven't been anywhere else really in the last few years, but I suspect the feeling is similar elsewhere.

It seems that most of the world LOVES American culture for the most part..the TeeVee, the apparent wealth (Everyone drives a BIG car and has a BIG house!) ut, most folks do not much like the American government and how we (The US) treat the rest of the world.

Of course, you also summarized some of the reasons for this. Of course, when I travel, I try to correct some of the misconceptions...and reiterate the points I agree with :) 

I tend to travel more to unusual places, like Tibet, Mongolia and Bhutan, where not too many tourists go, but even in the more widely travelled places, the perceptions are similar.

Generally, they seem to like Americans, but not much like America.

Most of the world thinks the US doesn't have enough of a global view. Our news seems to focus more on domestic issues than on foreign issues. Of course, my feeling here is that the US is a BIG country, so domestic news takes awhile to cover! In addition, the media have ample access to information domestically; more than internationally.

All in all I think you summarized things quite well Dev.

Mark-

When all else fails, throw your computer out the window!!!
!