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1.8GH Pentium 4 or Athlon XP 1800+ ??

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November 8, 2001 8:56:11 PM

This is my first post on this board.

I am looking to buy a new PC, and I have this strong attraction towards Pentium 4. What do you think of the following spec. (taken from Dell's website - <A HREF="http://commerce.euro.dell.com/dellstore/config/frameset..." target="_new">CICK HERE</A>):

1.8GHz Intel Pentium 4 Processor with 256K cache
384MB RDRAM,
19" Triniton Flat Screen Monitor,
100GB Hard Drive (7200 rpm)
16x DVD Drive & Software Decoding
16x IDE CD-RW Internal
Turtle Beach Santa Cruz Sound Card
Harmon Kardon 695 speakers
64MB nVidia GeFore3 Ti 200 Card
MS Windows XP
(plus other standard things)
3 years warranty
Total Price = £1300 (inc. VAT and delivery)


I would like to know if it's is worth buying this system and whether anyone can come up with a better deal.

I don't have a lot of money but I don't mind paying a bit more as long as I get a FAST, HIGH PERFORMANCE machine, which is FUTURE PROOF so that it won't cost me a bomb to upgrade it in the future when new stuff comes out.

I know the Athlons have been getting high scores with the benchmarks, but they still doesn't appeal to me. I want QUALITY, PERFORMANCE, COMPATIBILITY and FUTURE PROOFNESS. Intel have have been leading the market for many years, and their quality is very high.

I have heard that there could be problems with the AMD processors because they are very exposed and can easily be damaged. Also the processors can easily be over-heated, which causes the system to crash often.

I am very desparate to buy the computer very soon. Do you think it is worth waiting to buy the computer in the new years? If it is worth waiting, how would this benefit me? Other than the price fall, of course.

I want some honest opinions from the well-researched members on this board. I want to buy a system that is

1) MOST COMPATIBLE with CURRENT and FUTURE software and hardware

2) A system that will LIVE LONG and not need reparing often due to it's low quality. I think intel's quality is much higher than Athlon's.

3) I want a system that will not need much upgrading to keep up with time, with new software, hardware etc.

4) I have been waiting since July for better systems to come out and also for the price drop. Do you think that it is worth waiting longer till the new year to buy my computer? How will that benfit me other than the price drop?
November 8, 2001 9:35:26 PM

Quote:

1) MOST COMPATIBLE with CURRENT and FUTURE software and hardware

Any modern processor complies with your first requirement. Both the Pentium 4 and the Athlon (XP) are 100% compatible with everything out there.

Quote:

2) A system that will LIVE LONG and not need reparing often due to it's low quality. I think intel's quality is much higher than Athlon's.

Repairing? I have used AMD and Intel systems for years and the only thing I ever had a problem with was an old 40X CD-ROM drive that I sent back and got it replaced with a 56X DRIVE for free. I doubt you'll ever need to send back a modern processor for repair because they are all excellent quality. The Athlon is equal to the Pentium 4, quality-wise.

Quote:

3) I want a system that will not need much upgrading to keep up with time, with new software, hardware etc.

Any system will do but it must be built by hand. OEMs like DELL can rarely be upgraded.

Quote:

4) I have been waiting since July for better systems to come out and also for the price drop. Do you think that it is worth waiting longer till the new year to buy my computer? How will that benfit me other than the price drop?

If you want nothing but an Intel system then I'd wait for the Northwood early next year because Pentium 4s are underperformers for the price. The Northwood should change that and give you more bang for the buck.
If you want an AMD system, the best time to buy is now. The Palamino (Athlon XP) was just release and currently the top-of-the-line Athlon XP 1900+ offers up to 15% better performance than a P4 2GHz for a fraction of the price.

More things to note:

* The Athlon platform is 100% stable (whatever that means nowadays) in any task you can throw at it. Admittedly, both Intel and AMD systems have flaws so TRUE 100% is impossible but 99.99% of the time, it's the OS's fault not the processor's. Don't be mislead by trolls!! AMD systems are an option.

The system you said referred to from DELL sounds good but it's probably not. DELL usually uses unupgradeable motherboards with few PCI slots. Also 384MB probably means that all the RAM slots are full so you can't upgrade RAM without throwing out the old RAM.

AMD technology + Intel technology = Intel/AMD Pentathlon IV; the <b>ULTIMATE</b> PC processor
November 8, 2001 9:38:57 PM

if you like pentium 4, go with it.
just remember that the socket 423 version is limited to probably 2.2Ghz... and is in the process of being phased out.
NOT a good upgrade path.
go for the socket 478 if possible.

as for your comment on the athlon:
sure the core is easy to damage and fragine and prone to overheating...
that is, of course, if you do the job yourself, put on the cooler incorrectly, or use a crappy cooler with bad casecooling.

if you get the computer shop assembled with a decent cooler (hell even the stock one is ok if your not overclocking) you should have no issues.
(FYI: i run an overclocked athlon 1.2 @ 1.35 & 150bus speed for as long as i want at 100% load with zero crashes. and all im using is a fop32-1 an average cooler with 2 decent casefans)
p.s. decent casecooling is advised for ANY system nowerdays.

on yeah... the XP 1800+ benchmarks show that on average its VERY comparable to the pentium4 2.0.... thus considerably better than the 1.8, at a lower cost.

as for when to buy... hmmms. i dont believe any new processors ard due to be released until next year... so getting in before the christmas rush might be an idea. ram is as cheap as its ever been... and with the nvidia vs ati graphics battle graphics cards are also very decent in price.
geforce3 ti-200 is ok... although possibly an original geforce3 will give beter performance.

OEMs selling "High End"PCs with integrated video will be forced into Q3tournaments using a TNT2M64!
Related resources
November 8, 2001 9:48:48 PM

LHG My understanding on 423 was that 2ghz was the max speed we would see for P4 on that socket.

Mark-

When all else fails, throw your computer out the window!!!
November 8, 2001 10:27:18 PM

AMDude

No problem with most of what you said except: "If you want nothing but an Intel system then I'd wait for the Northwood early next year because Pentium 4s are underperformers for the price." and "If you want an AMD system, the best time to buy is now." Both companies are constantly improving their product and you will always benefit from waiting as long as you can. Old technology gets cheaper and new tech gets better. AMD has got Hammer, SSE2 and .13 on the way. Waiting is almost always better. Thing is you can't wait forever cause we only live so long.

As far as OEMs like Dell go you have a mixed bag. Dells have a great cooling solution, a single point of contact for service, and the price is not so bad anymore.

With homebuilts you are always waiting on something, everybody you bought from will blame everybody else you bought from if you have a problem, and your system is only as good as whoever builds it so if you are not sure what you are doing go OEM.

Sounds like his mind is already made up anyway. You really can't go too wrong with Intel. You might pay a little too much for the performance you get and you may not fit in with the "cool" tweakers if you get a Dell/Intel system.

Personally I don't think too much weight should be given to upgradability because you cannot predict the future and also because everything in your system ages and will need upgrading eventually. Why upgrade a processer only when newer drives are going to be twice as big and twice as fast?

Remember if you ain't Muslim you ain't Shiite.
November 8, 2001 10:34:22 PM

your probably right... 2Ghz or maybe 2.2 with max overclock.

yet another dead end socket from intel *sigh*

OEMs selling "High End"PCs with integrated video will be forced into Q3tournaments using a TNT2M64!
November 8, 2001 11:00:37 PM

Well, the Palamino (Athlon XP) is brand new while the Willy (current Pentium 4s) originally came out in 2000. So the Palamino core is newer than the Willamette core that's why I said the best time to buy AMD is now.

AMD technology + Intel technology = Intel/AMD Pentathlon IV; the <b>ULTIMATE</b> PC processor
November 8, 2001 11:37:06 PM

2GHz is all they are taking the current Socket 423 CPU's up to. More than likely, that dell systemis based around Socket 423 and not the newer Socket 478.

Regarding upgradability, AMD makes a strong show in that realm as well. Their Socket A is planned to be used on the Thoroughbreds from 1.6GHz (1900XP+) and up, to around 2.3GHz, I have even heard.

:tongue: Have you ever tried cooking an egg on your HSF? Tasty. :tongue:
November 8, 2001 11:42:27 PM

£1300 pounds, a 19in flat screen, 3yr warranty? I say go for it! I really doubt anyone can build an AMD system like this for under $1800 USD.

not sure if this is socket423 system or not but ponder this-most of the AMDzealots here who say the 423 is a "dead end" have gone through 3 to 4 boards on their precious AMD platforms, meanwhile ppl with P4 system are chugging along and getting work done! LOL!

I find this funny 'cause they don't see it as an upgrade they see it as standard procedure like updating drivers and the ones who chime in saying they never had problems with their systems are lying.

"<b>AMD/VIA!</b>...you are <i>still</i> the weakest link, good bye!"
November 9, 2001 12:00:46 AM

Conqueror, I'd like to think of myself as a relatively unbiased person. AMDMeltdown, as his name, suggests, is an extremely rude and biased person. He shows no respect for anyone and is extremely arrogant. Um, AMD system like that for under $1800? I can build an AMD system like that for a little more than half that price. Um, no one here has gone through 3 or 4 motherboards. I admit there were some problems with KT133A and the Athlon XP but that's nothing. People don't get new motherboards because they are unstable or because they burn up, they get them because as enthusiasts, we love to have the lastest stuff. It's that simple. Um, upgrading is fun! What's wrong with upgrading? If you have the cash upgrading is a great way to keep your PC up-to-date. I'm never had problems with my OVERCLOCKED AMD processor because AMD processors are rock stable. It's the OS/Apps that crashes not the processor that overheats or malfunctions. Please AMDMeltdown, if you want to support Intel, do it in a less insulting manner and people will believe you and respect you.

AMD technology + Intel technology = Intel/AMD Pentathlon IV; the <b>ULTIMATE</b> PC processor
November 9, 2001 12:00:54 AM

I noted that the Dell PC has the GeForce 3 Ti200.

If you want top of the line, the Ti500 does have a bit more power to it. Check Tom's comparision of the graphic cards to see if it's worth the extra money to you. Just depends if you have the case to pay or not.

I would suggest the AMD all the way. If you are knowledgeable and understand how to setup and build a computer by yourself, check out www.pricewatch.com to get the cheapest price for hardware on the net. It does take time and knowledge to use the website best, but you can save money over retail.

AMD's Hammer is gonna smash Intel
November 9, 2001 12:01:14 AM

Hrrmmm.....

Quote:
I really doubt anyone can build an AMD system like this for under $1800 USD.

---------------------------------------------------
1,300 British Pound = 1,890.98 US Dollar
1,300 US Dollar (USD) = 893.716 British Pound (GBP)

Median price = 1.45380 / 1.45460 (bid/ask)
Minimum price = 1.45190 / 1.45260
Maximum price = 1.46610 / 1.46680
--------------------------------------------------
The little "£" is for pound, correct? I am rusty on my currency symbols. In that case, AMD Meltdown has proved his stupidity again.

And seeing as how a slower AMD can beat a PIV, you can get a lot more power for a lot less cash:

$209 - Pentium 4 1.8GHz
$195 - Athlon XP 1800 (1.6GHz)

Now, there's less for a CPU that will beat the PIV 1.8GHz hands down in every application. And seeing as how a regular Athlon 1.4GHz will tie a PIV 1.8GHz in most every application, you could save even less by going with it!

$115 - Athlon 1.4GHz 266 FSB
$209 - Pentium 4 1.8GHz

Wow, there's even more saved for the same preformance! Let's keep going......now onto RAM......

$80 - RDRAM 256MB
$34 - RDRAM 128MB

vs.

$21 - PC2100 DDR 256MB
$11 - PC2100 DDR 128MB

Thank you very much.

Quote:

most of the AMDzealots here who say the 423 is a "dead end" have gone through 3 to 4 boards on their precious AMD platforms

Yet again, you exacerbate every minor flaw into an insurmountable pile of bullshit. Every AMD system I have built has worked perfectly fine, with no hiccups in operation whatsoever.

On a final note....
Quote:
Please AMDMeltdown, if you want to support Intel, do it in a less insulting manner and people will believe you and respect you.


He's beyond gaining respect.

:tongue: Have you ever tried cooking an egg on your HSF? Tasty. :tongue:
November 9, 2001 12:15:11 AM

The system you've picked out is a pretty decent choice. There are a few things I'd narrow down and one or two things I'd change.

For the 100GB 7200RPM hard drive, I would suggest either IBM or Seagate. The only reason I'd consider Seagate is because the newer IBM drives (the only ones capable of reaching 100GB?) are still unproven. IBM has a long-standing reputation for quality, but that reputation has been recently stained by the fiasco with their 75GXP series drives. There is currently a class-action lawsuit going on over the 75GXP product line.

For DVD drive, I would suggest something from Pioneer, preferably slot-loaded. I've heard great things about the latest 16x Pioneer DVD-ROMs, and I currently have a Pioneer 6x that's lasted for two or three years.

For CD/RW, I would suggest either Plextor or Teac. <A HREF="http://www.storagereview.com/" target="_new">Storage Review</A> can give you detailed reviews of just about any drive in existence, CD, DVD, or otherwise.

Harmon Kardon is a brand I'm not familiar with. We tend to prefer <A HREF="http://www.klipsch.com/" target="_new">Klipsch</A> for speakers.

Windows XP is, IMHO, more eye-candy than anything else. It provides better compatibility for old DOS games, but its driver support is rather shaky at the moment, and it requires more in the way of system resources. I would personally suggest Windows 2000.

The above comment about having systems "built by hand" is something we can all agree on. I would suggest that you stay away from retailers that do custom manufacturing; the most upgradeable systems are built from "cloney" off-the-shelf parts that aren't tailored to go in any one setup. That means stay away from Dell, Compaq, HP, Gateway, etc.

Quote:
I have heard that there could be problems with the AMD processors because they are very exposed and can easily be damaged.

If you're not building this system yourself, I don't see that this would be a problem...this is a manufacturer's responsibility to handle correctly.

Quote:
Also the processors can easily be over-heated, which causes the system to crash often.

Pentium 4's actually run hotter than Athlons and consume far more power. As a result, they actually need rather more cooling that Athlons. They do have the benefit of thermal protection though.

Our problem with P4s isn't just that they're underperforming; it's that in certain situations, Pentium 4's go beyond underperforming. In some high-end applications like 3D Studio MAX, AutoCAD, and compile jobs, P4's often perform abysmally worse than anything, even Pentium III's. If your heart is set on Intel, I would suggest you either wait for Northwood or get a Pentium III Tualatin CPU. The Northwood release may save the P4 and it may not; early engineering samples suggest that it will not.

Kelledin
<A HREF="http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/" target="_new">LFS</A>: "You don't eat or sleep or mow the lawn; you just hack your distro all day long."
November 9, 2001 12:24:32 AM

Quote:
most of the AMDzealots here who say the 423 is a "dead end" have gone through 3 to 4 boards on their precious AMD platforms

After all that badgering to get dhlucke to remove the "liar" label from <A HREF="http://forumz.tomshardware.com/modules.php?name=Forums&..." target="_new">the LIST...</A>

I think you'd better contact your imaginary law firm and start discussing a make-believe plea bargain. It'll probably be the first time the plaintiff has ever had to plea-bargain. :lol: 

Kelledin
<A HREF="http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/" target="_new">LFS</A>: "You don't eat or sleep or mow the lawn; you just hack your distro all day long."
November 9, 2001 12:51:14 AM

>1,300 British Pound = 1,890.98 US Dollar

yeah that's what I said $1800 dude! just for your puny brain to digest.

>And seeing as how a slower AMD can beat a PIV, you can get a lot more power for a lot less cash:

boy, you are a brilliant chap aren't you? you forgot to add the 3yr, warrant the 19in flatscreen LOL! another dumb pup.

"<b>AMD/VIA!</b>...you are <i>still</i> the weakest link, good bye!"
November 9, 2001 12:55:45 AM

I kno i'll have people disagree with me on this one but here goes. I have a presario 7000CTO and nothing is on the mobo, CPQ had FIC take the on-board sound off of the mobo. The mobo that comes with them is a compaq revision of the FIC AZ-11. I'm not sure if it's the AZ-11 or AZ-11E. I have one and in benchmakrs agains my dad's 1100 athlon on i think it's an A7V and mine always comes out in the lead by a little bit. And he has his running at CAS2 pc-133 memory. He has his tweaked as do I. So basaically from what i've seen the presario's aren't crap. But anyways price one up at <A HREF="http://www.compaq.com" target="_new">http://www.compaq.com&lt;/A>

My system: <A HREF="http://www.anandtech.com/mysystemrig.html?rigid=8946" target="_new">http://www.anandtech.com/mysystemrig.html?rigid=8946&lt;/A>
November 9, 2001 12:58:21 AM

The 19inch monitor could cost as little as $300 or less, AMDMeltdown.

AMD technology + Intel technology = Intel/AMD Pentathlon IV; the <b>ULTIMATE</b> PC processor
November 9, 2001 1:18:46 AM

1 thing to tell us what is the software that you use.

Wisdom dont come with time
Meilleur chance la prochaine fois
November 9, 2001 1:19:51 AM

Quote:
>1,300 British Pound = 1,890.98 US Dollar

yeah that's what I said $1800 dude! rounded off to the nearest US dollar just for your puny brain to digest.

$1,890.98 rounded off to the nearest dollar is $1,891. Rounding to the nearest hundred, it's $1,900. If you're going to insult someone, do the math corectly at least.

Quote:
boy, you are a brilliant chap aren't you? you forgot to add the 3yr, warrant the 19in flatscreen LOL! another dumb pup.

If you think for a second, changing the memory and the CPU doesn't change the price of the monitor or the warrenty.

60 FPS, 70 FPS, 80 FPS Crash!
Daylight comes and I have to go to work :frown:
November 9, 2001 1:28:23 AM

oooh, you got me professor, if it weren't for nitpicking you'd be out of a job.

LOL! :wink:

"<b>AMD/VIA!</b>...you are <i>still</i> the weakest link, good bye!"
November 9, 2001 1:48:51 AM

A pretty good system for a decient price given all you get from Dell. Does it come with some form of Office? Usually Dell's do.

<b>Prebuilt vs Compstore built vs Homebuilt </b>
I generaly recomend anyone who realy is generaly clueless about computers to go with a system like a Dell, Gateway, or Compaq. Just know your brand and figure out which is the best system for you. I've heard Dell does not build systems with as much flexability once they are built as they used to (2 Dells here at home, a P 200MMX, and a PIII 550, both are nice, and generaly upgradable). Compaq on the other hand, has become much better with this than they were in the past (All propriatary about 2 years ago). Ultimately, I think only Compaq will let you build an AMD system, so if you want an AMD, your choices are limited at the moment. These computers usually come with long warrantys, decent tech support, and usually components that have been well tested to work togeather.

A computer store built computer is nice IF you know what you want in your computer, and don't have the desire to actualy build it. You pay a bit more that a self built system, but you have someone who can help support it if you have problems.

A home built system can help you save some money, and tweek everything yourself. However, you're all alone with support with the vendors and manufacturers.

60 FPS, 70 FPS, 80 FPS Crash!
Daylight comes and I have to go to work :frown:
November 9, 2001 3:00:05 AM

Dude i had the same problem when i bought my last computer, i had always been a pentium guy, and did not know what to buy, a 1ghz athlon, or a 1ghz p4, i had always liked the performance of my p3, and thought the athlon would not live up to my pentium, man was i wrong. the athlon rocked, and could not even tell the difference, well mabey in the price, the athlon is cheeper, and rocks. I just ordered, well first i built, then ordered my new system with the athlonxp 1800+, i cant wait.
November 9, 2001 7:04:14 AM

1ghz p4?

~Matisaro~
"The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark"
~Tbird1.3@1.5~
November 9, 2001 5:42:12 PM

It's been nice reading all your comments guys! You guys are real freaks!

I can build a system myself if I wanted to, but I just want peace of mind and buy a ready cooked system from the store!


The Hard drive with that system is Ultra ATA-100.
They don't do Ti500 GeForce3.
The speaker's are of high quality. I've heard that Harmon Kardon is the company that supplies speakers to Mercedes cars! The ones that come with the system I quoted are 40 Watt speakers which consist of two sattelite speakers and a subwoofer system. They include "Vmax", a Harman International audio image-processing algorithm that seamlessly supports both two and four channel sound cards. This audio hologram creates a four speaker sound field from two speakers through the use of a head related transfer function when used with a four channel sound card. In addition, the algorithm provides enhanced stereo when used with a two channel sound card.


I do know about the forthcoming Northwood processor from Intel, but I will wait for that until its price is gone down and I'll upgrade the PC that I'll already have (the one I quoted above).

I did enquire about the type of socket Dell uses and they told me they use the socket 478 for their Pentium 4's.

Read this about Socket 478:
http://www.asus.com/products/techref/cpu/p4faq.html


I still can't see a good reason to go for the Athlon based systems!!
If I'm going to buy an Athlon, I can see myself upgrading and spending money all the time. What's the point of buying fast system that will become out of date soon and may be not compatible with newer software and hardware to come in the future? It will then cost a lot to upgrade. Isn't it better to go with intel which will last you a long while, with fewer upgrades?

Even if i DO have to upgrade, I think the pathways to upgrading a pentium will be much easier and required less often and hence much cheaper overall than the Athlons. Athlon has not yet settled down, it is still in the primitive stages of life even though it is faster than Pentium. So most of the Athlon based systems will become out of date pretty soon and would require upgrade.


BTW, you can't compare the price in pounds directly with the price in dollars. £1 is about $1.5, but something that costs £1 here in UK does not neccessarily cost $1.5 in the U.S. Look at the petrol (gas) prices, you get it much cheaper than us in the U.K.

I configured the system on Dell's U.K. website for the configuration I quoted in my first post above and it came out to £1,468.75 (inc VAT and deliv). (equivalent to about $2,200)

I did the same configuration on Dell's U.S. website and the price came to $2,425 (inc VAT and deliv)

But despite all this, I rang up directly to Dell, and got the same thing for £1300 (about $1950). Now is that a discount or what??!!

I want a system that will LAST A LONG TIME (both it's living time and also it's compatibilty with time) and so that it requires less money to be spent overall as time goes on.
November 9, 2001 6:03:58 PM

1.if you want a northwood it will need a new socket, that means new mobo.
2.AMD will support new hardware and new software that will come in the future.
3.i can see you didnt spend any time reading the thread or articles on this site coz you would know better then to post the BS you did.

btw. AMD provided you with more money saving method of upgrading as they didnt change the cocked for every new CPU they released, socketA cpu's were long used by amd and provided the users a less expansive upgrade path over time.
i dont know on world you live on but on mine that looks like a good buy.

<font color=green>
*******
*K.I.S.S*
*(k)eep (I)t (S)imple (S)tupid*
*******
</font color=green>
November 9, 2001 6:49:00 PM

Quote:
If I'm going to buy an Athlon, I can see myself upgrading and spending money all the time. What's the point of buying fast system that will become out of date soon and may be not compatible with newer software and hardware to come in the future? It will then cost a lot to upgrade. Isn't it better to go with intel which will last you a long while, with fewer upgrades?

Even if i DO have to upgrade, I think the pathways to upgrading a pentium will be much easier and required less often and hence much cheaper overall than the Athlons. Athlon has not yet settled down, it is still in the primitive stages of life even though it is faster than Pentium. So most of the Athlon based systems will become out of date pretty soon and would require upgrade.

How will an AMD system be any more outdated than a P4 system in the same ammount of time? True, the P4 as SSE2, but that still has yet to be taken advantage of, and isn't that big of a deal in the short run and the long run. An AMD system is not going to slow down with age.

As for constant upgrades, the only difference between an AMD system and a P4 system is the CPU, Motherboard, and Ram. Ram doesn't get obsolete while in a system, and often to get the new features of a new CPU, a new Motherboard is needed anyway, so this isn't realy an issue. Note, the Slot A for Athlons has been around for quite a while, and doesn't look like it will be going anywhere till posably hammer.

Yes, many people here do replace their MB quite a bit, but that is to take advantage of new technology they feel is usefull to them. You'll have the same problem with an Intel or an AMD system, as there are no motherboards that can instantly integrate new technology. (Your USB hardware won't suddently become USB 2.0). No one is ever forced to go out and buy new hardware for any reason.

As for an AMD system being primitive, the Athlon t-bird isn't that much younger than the P4 itself. The people making chipsets for the AMD have been doing it for quite a while, and the KT266A chipset is quite mature and stable. DDR Ram is based on the old SDRam standard, and much more mature than the RDRam the P4 uses.

However, I want to hear your reasoning on this. Why do you think that an AMD system will cost more to upgrade, and will need constant upgrading? What makes you think that an AMD system won't be compatable with new hardware and software? How is an AMD system primitive?

Chesnuts roasting on an open CPU
Bill Gates nipping at your wallet
November 9, 2001 7:00:53 PM

Quote:
If I'm going to buy an Athlon, I can see myself upgrading and spending money all the time.

How exactly do you see that? I certainly haven't been "upgrading and spending money all the time." Every Athlon system I've worked with has worked just fine with every piece of software and hardware I've thrown at it. My current motherboard is one of the first AMD761 motherboards released, and it still works just fine.

Quote:
Athlon has not yet settled down, it is still in the primitive stages of life

Which planet have you been living on? The above statement is far more true of the Pentium 4. The current Pentium 4 was an unfinished design that Intel released in a hack-job state in a weak effort to compete with the Athlon. <i>That</i> is the epitome of "primitive stages of life;" that's why the thing is such an underperformer. :wink:

The discount on this Dell system is just about the only good reason to go the Intel route--and that's assuming that you can't do the same with an Athlon-based system (by going to another OEM seller in the UK).

Kelledin
<A HREF="http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/" target="_new">LFS</A>: "You don't eat or sleep or mow the lawn; you just hack your distro all day long."
November 9, 2001 7:44:24 PM

Thank you Bront and Kelledin, you took the words right out of my mouth.

AMD technology + Intel technology = Intel/AMD Pentathlon IV; the <b>ULTIMATE</b> PC processor
November 9, 2001 8:22:13 PM

Same here.

:tongue: Have you ever tried cooking an egg on your HSF? Tasty. :tongue:
November 9, 2001 9:17:26 PM

You are correct in that Intel does have higher quality than AMD, by far.

AMD does have incompatabilites and is NOT 100% compatable. or it would says "Intel Inside" on the box. there are many applications that do not run properly on AMD based systems.

1 example, Avid a repsected name in video editing? Media composer has rejection for AMD based systems and produces a grey boxes in the preview window. there is no reason for this but it is directly related to AMD based systems, various chipsets report same problem. Some application read the processor string for "geniune Intel".

AMD processors have yet master the thermal diode, you want your investment to last? did you see THG video of the AMD's cooking themselves in seconds destroying the motherboard on one?

Socket 478 P4 is what you want to get, also stick with the RDRAM. you will be very happy with your machine. Stability and compatability are number one in my book, and the only thing we sell/put our name on and reputation behind, something AMD lacks.

Most of the top PC manufacturers will not put AMD processors into thier systems due to the poor dependabilty and high failure rate that comes with owning a AMD.
November 9, 2001 9:30:07 PM

Thank you Fugger. You have not sweared at AMD users or AMD. I respect you opinion Fugger, and I ask you to read my Truce post and respond on behave of all misinterpreted Intel-supporting individuals in these forums.

AMD technology + Intel technology = Intel/AMD Pentathlon IV; the <b>ULTIMATE</b> PC processor
November 9, 2001 9:37:39 PM

He may not have personally insulted anyone, but his compatability statement was bs FUD just the same lol.

~Matisaro~
"The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark"
~Tbird1.3@1.5~
November 9, 2001 10:31:37 PM

Yea right, you guys have hard enough time finding a "compatable PSU" let alone finding parts that work well *cough*SBlive*cough*.

GG
November 9, 2001 11:13:51 PM

Fugger, you just had to do that? That looked like an attempted insult to me! I thought you had changed! You also need compatible PSUs for P4s and the SoundBlaster Live! is buggy on all platforms because it's Creative's fault(for the popping and cracking, although it's Via's fault for the data corruption issue).

AMD technology + Intel technology = Intel/AMD Pentathlon IV; the <b>ULTIMATE</b> PC processor
November 10, 2001 12:28:45 AM

I must start out by apologizing to you for waht I am about to say. I have not said anything negative to anyone on this board until now, but here goes.

Your argument about upgrade is 100% stupid. Either way you go you will be equally screwed. The P4 will not "last longer" or be useful for a longer period. The Athlon 1800+ is faster, and that wont change. Next year a P41800 wont all of the sudden become faster then it is now.

As for the hard disk ATA100 MEAN CRAP! All IDE drives are ATA100 nowadays. The thing that matter is the RPMs. You want a 7200 RPM drive, and better yet go 10000 RPM SCSI!

Jesus saves, but Mario scores!!!
November 10, 2001 1:30:55 AM

Lol< my sb live works fine. More FUD from Fugger....or should I call them FFF Fugger Fabricated Facts.

~Matisaro~
"The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark"
~Tbird1.3@1.5~
November 10, 2001 2:05:40 AM

There's a problem with AMD systems and the SB Live? I should tell that to the 2 I have running in my Athlon systems.

Chesnuts roasting on an open CPU
Bill Gates nipping at your wallet
November 10, 2001 3:20:12 AM

Or the one I've had run great through two Athlon systems.

What's funny is what happened to my first SB Live...it toasted itself while sitting in my 440BX system. I actually still have the motherboard around. It still seems to work, but I wouldn't trust it with a scorched PCI slot.

Kelledin
<A HREF="http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/" target="_new">LFS</A>: "You don't eat or sleep or mow the lawn; you just hack your distro all day long."
November 10, 2001 9:28:51 AM

What wrong with Sound blaster live on Amd?? It has work on mine Amd systems 700mhz and 1.53. Like it work on my old Intel board so drop that one. Bsides No one trust You anyway. For you lie to much.
November 10, 2001 11:50:13 AM

Hi Conqueror,
It's been loads of fun reading up on the exchanges going on with this thread.

First, I wish you the best of luck deciding on your new comp. It's hard enough to determine the best comp and configuration "for now" let alone the longevity factor. Things change. The other enthusiasts here embrace that and move with it. If you're a technophile (or you become one) then your goals of buying a computer will change a bit. You may want your computer to last forever right now. But, many people see something in a year or two that they like enough to want to buy. Using your upgrade skills in the future can dull some of that pain.
Second, your approach with the Dell system seems reasonable. But for people that don't build their own systems, I would offer another suggestion. Use the Dell system as a starting point. Then, get to know a bit of the computer builders in your area. It's rare that an branded OEM will come with everything you want so see if the builder can give you a good price on something more tailored to you. I live somewhere where the vendors are competitive so it's possible to get higher grade components at a comparable price.
Third, worry less about things like support and warranty. If it's going to break, it breaks early because it was bad to begin with. Otherwise it will probably last longer than you want to keep it. Again, some do-it-yourself can go a long way. And, people at THG can address your questions products you have or want to get.
Finally...still concerned about AMD vs Intel? It used to be that AMD got through the day by trying to make a dent in the Intel marketshare. I've been following AMD for a bit. I was teetering when I bought my last comp (PIII/500). I made the cross to AMD this year (TB 1.4G). No doubt that you've read comments by others who have done the same. Lots of people here are big AMD supporters. AMD makes a good product. Not to say that PIV is not good. But if you buy it make sure that you not buying it for Intel's former accolades. The AMD users, chipset and peripheral manufacturers, etc... can't all be wrong. And Intel pathways are not cheaper either. Other people have beaten this issue to death already. My pick would be the Athlon XP.
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
November 10, 2001 12:57:09 PM

I have an Athlon XP 1800 and Zalman 500 series fan for it. But it is too noisy. What you can offer me for my CPU ? A new fan ? Which one ? Or what ?
November 10, 2001 1:00:47 PM

Get the Volcano6Cu (NOT the CU+!)

AMD technology + Intel technology = Intel/AMD Pentathlon IV; the <b>ULTIMATE</b> PC processor
November 12, 2001 9:06:35 PM

Some quick replies to some of the requests:

1) The PC I quoted above does support socket 478. Is this all I need to upgrade to the Northwood later on?

2) When I said AMD is in it's primitive stages, I meant it in comparison to Pentium systems AS A WHOLE not just the Pentium 4.

3) I just have this feeling that upgrading pathway for AMD will be more expensive over a period of time than Pentium's upgrading pathways. I say this because generally Athlon systems need to be upgraded more often, and hence one has to spend more money overall.

4) I did not say that future software or hardware will not be compatible with AMD, but rather I asked the question whether they would be compatible or not. I am not well researched in this field, so that is why I asked the question.

I asked this because I once bought a TV tuner card that required you to have Pentium computer. So now when I'll be buying a computer, I'll make sure I get one that will be compatible for present and future software and hardware.

5) RT2002 wrote: "Use the Dell system as a starting point. Then, get to know a bit of the computer builders in your area. It's rare that an branded OEM will come with everything you want so see if the builder can give you a good price on something more tailored to you."

That is exactly what I'm planning to do!
November 12, 2001 9:20:54 PM

6) One other point. Which of the two socket types do you think will last longer in time and not die away like the socket 423? The socket 478 for the pentium 4 or the socket A for the AMD???
November 12, 2001 10:21:39 PM

Ok, let me see if I can help out here.

1) Yes, I believe you will be able to drop in a Northwood.

2) I wouldn't call AMD primitive. They've been around since the days of the 386 (longer?).

3) What makes you say that? People spend money based on what they think they need. Generally, AMD owners tend to want the newest and bestest thing, so they upgrade more. The AMD platform has more available steps to go through. In terms of *required* upgrades, AMD has proven a bit better (less required upgrades, in other words).

4) Either a P4 or AXP will run whatever software you will need.

"I asked this because I once bought a TV tuner card that required you to have Pentium computer."

No offense, but I highly doubt that. They probably meant a Pentuim-class computer. So far, only one obscure bug in an obscure program has popped up as an "AMD compatability problem".


5) Good to hear. Dell and any other OEM will give you horrible components for a premuim price.

6) That's a tough question, and there is no clear answer. I would say that they will die out around the same time (or perhaps Socket A lasting a little longer), but Intel will go to another 32-bit CPU and the Socket A is known to give out to the Hammer (x86-64). Either will be ok for you, IMO.


If I came out as anti-Intel in any way, that was not my intent. Both companies make good products, you just seemed to come here with some wrong preconceptions, so I'm trying to err on the side of AMD to correct that ("correct" from my point of view, at least).

<font color=orange>Quarter</font color=orange> <font color=blue>Pounder</font color=blue> <font color=orange>Inside</font color=orange>
November 12, 2001 10:28:10 PM

1) It <i>should be.</i> Note that later Northwoods will switch to using a quad-pumped 133MHz (effective 533MHz) FSB sometime during 2001. Some current Pentium 4 motherboards might not support that. Intel will probably continue releasing 100MHz FSB Northwoods, but Intel's tradition in the past has been to leave parts with an obsolete FSB at a higher price point while they drop prices on newer parts. That's what has happened with Pentium III CPUs.

Your best shot at having a good motherboard that will last to the next 133MHz FSB is to get the Asus P4T-E; Asus uses faster-specced memory interface chips and probably higher-yield i850 parts as well.

When referring to future parts, nothing is really for certain.

2) Fair enough. Remember that AMD's been making x86 CPUs since the 286 and perhaps even earlier.

3) Hmm...just a feeling?

Generally the only things that make CPU upgrades difficult or costly are:

<b>ISA devices.</b> Newer motherboards have generally stopped using ISA slots, whatever CPU they use.

<b>Old AGP cards.</b> This is a problem unique to the i845 chipset; it doesn't allow you to use some AGP cards. The scary thing is that an improperly specced AGP card (of which there are a fair number, especially in the GeForce series cards) may fit easily in an i845 board, but still not work--and actually fry itself and the motherboard as well. I wouldn't advise buying an i845 chipset in any case, but you might like to know about that.

<b>Socket changes (duh).</b> AMD actually has a similar or better track record than Intel in this area; AMD continued to make use of the old Socket 7, even upgrading it to Super 7, to ease the upgrade path (score one for AMD). The Slot-to-Socket transition happened for both Intel and AMD; Intel had the advantage of allowing slocket converters to be used (score one for Intel). And then, of course, there's the whole fiasco with Socket423 vs. Socket 478 (score one for AMD).

<b>Memory changes.</b> Nobody could smooth the transition from SDRAM to RDRAM. Intel tried with the i820 and failed miserably. AMD never did provide a smooth SDRAM-to-DDR transition with their own motherboards, but SiS, VIA, and ALi did.

<b>Increased power demands.</b> If a new CPU draws more power, it may require a larger power supply to function. This is true of both Intel and AMD. The problem was not so bad with Pentium 3's, since they require perhaps half the power clock-for-clock as an Athlon. The problem is currently considerably worse with Pentium 4's, since they draw about 50% more power (~105W for a P4 2GHz) than equivalent Athlon XPs (~66W for an Athlon XP 1800+).

4) Fair enough. I can tell you from experience, future software/hardware will indeed be compatible with AMD--except, perhaps, for RDRAM.

5) Good idea there.

6) See #1. :wink: Socket 478 will probably last a bit longer than Socket A, but some AMD roadmaps show Socket A-based CPUs being released throughout 2002, even after the Hammer is released. Supposedly there will be a .09u Thoroughbred.

Kelledin
<A HREF="http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/" target="_new">LFS</A>: "You don't eat or sleep or mow the lawn; you just hack your distro all day long."
November 13, 2001 1:59:47 AM

My question, is why did you title the post as if you were considering an athlon, then procede to list the reasons why you were never getting one?

~Matisaro~
"The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark"
~Tbird1.3@1.5~
November 13, 2001 2:34:18 AM

i believe the thing holding back p4/rdram board ATM is not the board or the memory but the dedicated rdram clock generator chips.
all thats required are better onboard chips.

P.S. im not always after the best and greatest.
my CPU upgrade cycle is probably aournd a year or so. an athlon 1200C will suffice for quite some time yet

Why do i feel like the lone sane voice in the mental assylum?
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
November 13, 2001 11:21:43 AM

Exactly.. If he insists on getting a P4, let him buy a P4. Its not like he is going to notice the difference anyway. There are plenty of websites that should enable him to make up his own mind. (THG, Anandtech, aceshardware, etc, etc)

This is either a well disguised troll post to start a flaming war, or an unfortunate example of an uninformed scared customer that buys brand names just for the name.

Im not saying everyone that buys intel is uninformed.. far from, but when you buy a computer because there is a "true pentium" in there, a name that sounds more familiar than "athalon something", then you are uninformed. Period.

And Fugger, if you do not even know how to write "compatible" you should refrain from saying anyting on the subject (and no, it was not a typo, you spelled it like that over and over).

= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my wife. =
November 13, 2001 11:52:55 AM

Quote:
This is either a well disguised troll post to start a flaming war, or an unfortunate example of an uninformed scared customer that buys brand names just for the name.


Call me untrusting, but given the title of the post.(perfect to grab the attention of undecided computer newbies) and then the immediate fugger like bashing of amd in the first post. I would tend to believe it is the former.

Add to that the fact that after many good natured attempts to set this computer "newbie" straight, he still holds his misguided beliefs and continues to attack relentlessly.

::shakes head::, whatever floats his boat I suppose. Some people probably get off on this type of shenanegins.

~Matisaro~
"The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark"
~Tbird1.3@1.5~
!