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A note about Intel quality...

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November 11, 2001 10:06:02 AM

I took a look at the latest CPU specification updates from Intel and Amd. After a quick look I found these interesting results...

Erratas (bugs) found in PIII so far ~ 80
Erratas (bugs) found in PIV so far ~ 57
Erratas (bugs) found in Athlon so far ~ 7

ftp://download.intel.com/design/pentiumiii/specupdt/244...
ftp://download.intel.com/design/pentium4/specupdt/24919...
http://www.amd.com/us-en/assets/content_type/white_pape...

Is this the quality and stability all Intel fans are talking about? (Sorry, I had to ask.)

/* The more you know, the more you realize how little you know */

More about : note intel quality

Anonymous
a b à CPUs
November 11, 2001 1:03:04 PM

It certainly says something about quality. It doesn't say much about stability.
November 11, 2001 2:39:19 PM

Well the reason so many of the intel bugs has been discovered is the sheer number of intel users. AMD user base is tiny in comparision. Intel R&D also dwarfs AMD R&D. I would think given the same amout of exposure AMD will have just as many found bugs.
Related resources
November 11, 2001 2:53:21 PM

Intel erratas are insignificant and are minimized with each stepping.

the biggest errata on the AMD chip is the "none or half-a$$" thermal protection that stays with on each stepping, AMD hasn't figured a way around that errata yet! LOL!

"<b>AMD/VIA!</b>...you are <i>still</i> the weakest link, good bye!"
November 11, 2001 3:13:30 PM

I thought they did, and needed the mother boards to address this in their future mobo.Was this ever an issue, before the Cooling off review came out. I mean how many poeples computer burned up?(So, let's set the record straight: through our video, we revealed the Palomino's major flaw when it is used with modern mainboards. AMD responded to our video and will be setting new guidelines for all mainboard manufacturers. These consist of a modification for all upcoming Socket A motherboards, which are to be integrated with a special electronic switching mechanism to protect the CPU from overheating.

The good news about this solution is that it guarantees that the CPU will survive; the bad news is that data safety is no longer guaranteed. The PC is not shut down properly, and instead it is switched off quite abruptly)


defrage is child's play-fdisk
November 11, 2001 5:25:03 PM

Well Athlon is an older chip than the P4..when was it released again ?. The P4 was released after the Athlon and yet it still has more bugs. Thats all I'm saying.

<font color=purple>~* K6-2 @ 333MHz *~
I don't need a 'Gigahertz' chip to surf the web just yet ;-)</font color=purple>
November 11, 2001 5:43:43 PM

Stop blamming Thermal Protection blah blah and how AMD is crap because of there "Errata"......jesus christ man..
Errata is a Word used by INTEL instead of saying BUGS....Like Processor Flaws......

I'l explian somwething funnier and dont start flamming me saying im a troll becasue im 100% not.....again i dotn use AMD....

Athlon Slot A came out I believe August, 1999.....
P6 Core Design from Pentium Pro Socket 8.....1996.....right MeltDown ??

THE PIII IS NOTHIGN MORE THAN A REVISED PENTIUM PRO.....AND THERE STILL WHAT, 87 errata ?? Please explian this....right now.....explian it, and dont go back to amd and pis poor fragile POS....EXPLAIN TO ME WHY THE INTEL CHIPS HAVE ALL TEH BUGS......Please........after what......5 almost 6 years now Intel STILL cant get there bugs outta there chips ??

Jesus christ dude, and the Athlon core has only got 7.....and its only 2 years old.........

P4......alredy 50 some odd bugs.......only a year old........man...and you gusy complain about how bad AMD is.........go face the corner.......stop judgign befoer you know the facts, just beacsue you cant setup a system properly...or you purposely make the AMD systems you've set-up to fail doesnt mean you have to blame the processor....u nkow what a Chipset is right ???? ok than....stop blamming AMD now......

-MeTaL RoCkEr
My <font color=red> Z28 </font color=red> can take your <font color=blue> P4 </font color=blue> off the line!
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
November 11, 2001 7:25:16 PM

lol ya unable to do a micro codeup date on the athlon.

-Spuddy

<font color=red>Being Evil Is Good. Cause I Can Be A Prick And Get Away With It.</font color=red> :lol: 
November 11, 2001 9:03:13 PM

hehe Erreta..funny word..

<font color=green>
*******
*K.I.S.S*
*(k)eep (I)t (S)imple (S)tupid*
*******
</font color=green>
November 11, 2001 9:40:52 PM

Quick English lesson, though it's too late to save your embarrassment.

Errata = plural

Erratum = Singular

Thus, no such word as erratas. And I wouldn't use that word anywhere but only to list the typos in a book or report. There are much better words to use elsewhere...

<font color=red><i>99% of statistics are made up!</i> - Leonardo daVinci</font color=red>
November 12, 2001 4:32:24 AM

"...
Erratas (bugs) found in PIII so far ~ 80
Erratas (bugs) found in PIV so far ~ 57
Erratas (bugs) found in Athlon so far ~ 7
..."

How do we know the real count of bugs? Maybe AMD don't disclose as many. If this bug count was conducted by an independent third party, then maybe it would be more significant indicator of relative quality between the microprocessor.

FWIW, I don't feel good about AMD because of the messed up JPEG image fiasco (execution speed path problem in MMX in some AMD CPUs). Seems like you have to visit a German site before finding out the AMD admitted that some of the processor made have problems.
November 12, 2001 4:42:29 AM

I Have to Agree with MadCat. I think everyone knows how state of the Art Intel's QA Department is. I think they would find more bugs then AMD would. I also don't think the ~7 Bug number that AMD came up with is true. If you just look in Toms Hardware Page you will see more then that. Also, I think for AMD the big errata is placing the Heatsink wrong and cracking/breaking your processor. It's too bad it's not documented anywhere in the Link posted above.

Keep it Cool
KG.
November 12, 2001 5:00:22 AM

"Thus, no such word as erratas. And I wouldn't use that word anywhere but only to list the typos in a book or report. There are much better words to use elsewhere..."

read my post again I don't think I used the word errata's.

btw, it's funny how you pups can't even come back at me with a intelligible retort, ya'll have to settle for the measly day old nitpick don't you, loser.

"<b>AMD/VIA!</b>...you are <i>still</i> the weakest link, good bye!"
November 12, 2001 5:37:59 AM

Quote:
How do we know the real count of bugs? Maybe AMD don't disclose as many. If this bug count was conducted by an independent third party, then maybe it would be more significant indicator of relative quality between the microprocessor.

FYI, the majority of CPU bugs are reported by hardcore users with engineering and assembly-language knowledge--and of course, there have been many instances where Intel tried to cover up these bugs. FDIV, anyone? :wink:

I personally think the Athlon just hasn't been out long enough to have all its bugs uncovered.

That doesn't really explain the P4's bug count, though, but really, the P4 <i>was</i> a poor hack-job that Intel was rushed to release. Probably a great many of the loose ends were held in with the wafer equivalent of duct tape and a prayer. The first P3 1.13GHz showed us just how far Intel might cut corners when desperate.

AmdMeltdown:
Quote:
I don't think i used the word erratta's

Apparently, you don't think, <i>period.</i> Read the post again. :lol: 

Kelledin
<A HREF="http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/" target="_new">LFS</A>: "You don't eat or sleep or mow the lawn; you just hack your distro all day long."
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
November 12, 2001 5:47:24 AM

You are a rude hemit like man i would think you would be a tad nicer. But no yer a power tripping white guy with too much time on yer hands pity :smile: .

-Spuddy

<font color=red>Being Evil Is Good. Cause I Can Be A Prick And Get Away With It.</font color=red> :lol: 
November 12, 2001 6:06:24 AM

according to Parma's numbers when intel releases the P6 it will only have eleven errors in it.

:cool: <font color=orange> intel amd the ultimate deathmatch</font color=orange>
November 12, 2001 6:26:41 AM

AFAIK more Athlon’s has been sold than P4's. So that means Athlon should have more bugs discovered since it has a larger user base, right?

Intel’s R&D better? Please, they just have an easier job finding the bugs since there are a lot more of them...

/* The more you know, the more you realize how little you know */
November 12, 2001 6:32:41 AM

Insignificant? I think releasing a CPU that can't calculate floating point numbers correctly isn't insignificant. (P5 core aka 585.9996432)

/* The more you know, the more you realize how little you know */
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
November 12, 2001 7:04:54 AM

>AFAIK more Athlon’s has been sold than P4's. So that means
>Athlon should have more bugs discovered since it has a
>larger user base, right?

Good point. Although its also probably true the Athlon appeals to a different public then the P4. I guess more Athlonn users are home users and gamers, while more p4 users are corporate users. I dont think gamers, tweakers and overclockers are the typical users that will discover a cpu flaw. I think that really takes a low level assembly developpers.

I kinda doubt most bugs (errata) are discovered by end users. I think its more likely they are found by companies like chipset vendors or developpers. Hence, the size of the 'installed' base is not so important. Its rather the number of partners, developpers, etc.

finally, while the numbers given are something to to consider, I think the nature of the bug could be much more important than the number. Most of these errata will probably never ever show up or affect anything. One nasty bug could be much worse than 20 irrelevant ones.
Still, the comments on the age of the P6 core, and its staggering ammount of errata is indeed surprising.

= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my wife. =
November 12, 2001 7:26:44 AM

Erratum = a note of error
Errata = a list of notes of errors

So Erattas could be said to be a set of notes of errors, which are pretty high in number. A Volume I, Volume II of errata I guess ;-)

Any Ph.D English to resolve this???


<font color=red>No system is fool-proof. Fools are Ingenious!</font color=red>
November 12, 2001 7:54:25 AM

First-year Latin might help. Or it may just give you a headache, which I consider to be rather fun. I'm a bit sadistic like that. :smile:

"erro" is a Latin verb meaning "make a mistake"; "erratum" is taken from its infinitive form and treated as a neuter-form Latin noun, second declension. Suffixes for different uses are as follows:

singular nominative: erratum
singular genetive: errati
singular dative: errato
singular accusative: erratum
singular ablative: errato
plural nomitative: errata
plural genetive: erratorum
plural dative: erratis
plural accusative: errata
plural ablative: erratis

The only ones that actually translate into English are the singular and plural genetive (genetive use being the subject of a clause). Yo u could say the accusative form also translates, but only because it is not distinguishable from genetive when taken out of context.

Ok, that's a wrap. Tempus could probably explain it a bit better, I suppose; four semesters of high-school latin 5 years ago can only go so far. :wink:

Kelledin
<A HREF="http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/" target="_new">LFS</A>: "You don't eat or sleep or mow the lawn; you just hack your distro all day long."
November 12, 2001 9:55:36 AM

Another "insignificant" erratum:

http://www.theinquirer.net/12110106.htm

/* The more you know, the more you realize how little you know */<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Parma_Endorion on 11/12/01 09:10 AM.</EM></FONT></P>
November 12, 2001 9:57:23 AM

Wrong! Micro-code updates has been possible since the first K6 chip.

/* The more you know, the more you realize how little you know */
November 12, 2001 12:41:44 PM

true!

but they are usually updated with BIOS updates, you dont get them separately to flash them into your processor!

<font color=red>No system is fool-proof. Fools are Ingenious!</font color=red>
November 12, 2001 1:05:09 PM

Speaking of bugs...

Here are the latest...

Itanium bug halts Compaq shipments
http://213.219.40.69/12110106.htm


And...

WinXP causes Intel mobile chips to overheat
http://213.219.40.69/12110104.htm

This last one is ironic to me since there has been sooo much discussion about overheating and thermal protection...and how Intel is soo much better than AMD, but look whos chips have problems in Win XP!

Mark-

When all else fails, throw your computer out the window!!!
November 13, 2001 2:31:16 AM

Except they did not change their specifications, the fujitsu board was NOT following AMDs thermal protection specs, the cpu dying was fujitsus fault not AMD's.

~Matisaro~
"The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark"
~Tbird1.3@1.5~
November 13, 2001 2:32:35 AM

AMD has 22% market share, even if we multiply their 7 by 4(which is what your market share argument is stating) 28 is still less than half of the p4/p3 bugs. I dont think that market share has anything to do with bugs and their discovery.

~Matisaro~
"The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark"
~Tbird1.3@1.5~
November 13, 2001 9:07:23 AM

Guys, it is a qualified fact that AMD do not declare errata publicly, Intel does, there's a website of Intel's own making declaring all known errata to their vendors, no matter how trivial, they still get communicated, AMD, to my knowledge to not do this, unless forced, the Win XP issue is a MSFT issue, not a PIII issue.
November 13, 2001 10:42:14 AM

Actually, they do. But I should have read the document more carefully. Quote from AMD:

"There can be missing errata numbers. Errata that have been resolved from early revisions of the processor have been deleted, and errata that have been reconsidered may have been deleted or renumbered."

So that brings up the errata for Athlon to 16 after 3 revisions (Classic/Thunderbird/Palomino). 80 for Pentium III after 3 revisions (PPro/PII/PIII) and 57 for PIV after 1 revision (Willamette). Going to be interesting to see how good Northwood is.

You are correct about the WinXP issue. It is not the fault of Intel or Amd. It's the fault of M$. I wonder how long they will be able to release products, which are not ready for prime time...


/* The more you know, the more you realize how little you know */
November 13, 2001 11:58:16 AM

Tejas, you got any links to back up that clearly baseless troll like comment? Or are you practicing at taking FUGGERS job?

~Matisaro~
"The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark"
~Tbird1.3@1.5~
November 13, 2001 1:30:38 PM

those are listed in the AMD spec updates, and they also say if there is any workaround, or how the fix is planned.

every spec update lists about 7~15 errata, some have workarounds in technotes - like the one that Duron reported 1 KB L2 cache, you simply assume it to be 64k!

I dont have the links off hand, that AMD has completely revamped their site, but you can request them a free techdocs CD and you will get all of them.

If they dont publicly declare the errata how are they going to make reliable systems? All the errata is documented and passed on to BIOS and software vendors. Its just a matter of looking for it.

girish

<font color=red>No system is fool-proof. Fools are Ingenious!</font color=red>
November 13, 2001 3:27:00 PM

"There can be missing errata numbers. Errata that have been resolved from early revisions of the processor have been deleted, and errata that have been reconsidered may have been deleted or renumbered."

AMD is lying to you folks, they will and they do hide the their eratta. they don't like to post old eratta because it'll make 'em look worse than they do already. AMD LIES!!!

"<b>AMD/VIA!</b>...you are <i>still</i> the weakest link, good bye!"
November 13, 2001 3:32:32 PM

"Tejas, you got any links to back up that clearly baseless troll like comment? Or are you practicing at taking FUGGERS job?"

Tejas is right! you're a fool if you believe AMD, and that's not a troll it's probably fact, you're just in denial.


"<b>AMD/VIA!</b>...you are <i>still</i> the weakest link, good bye!"
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
November 13, 2001 3:37:14 PM

now your grasping at straws. Stop splitting hairs. AMD and INTEL will be locked in the battle for time to come. It's competition - Neither chip beats the other under the table. Benchmarks prove that - What they do is beat each other in DIFFERENT benchmarks. So AMD will beat INTEL in some instance but AMD will have downfalls to INTEL in others. So how can 1 be better than the other - Let AMD or INTEL bring out the perfect chip - then you can gloat.

I wanna be a hippie and I wanna get stoned yeah.
November 13, 2001 3:54:38 PM

Let Tejas get the links Meltdown and we will see.

For thetime being, get the AMD Techdocs CD <A HREF="http://www.amd.com/us-en/Processors/DevelopWithAMD/0,,3..." target="_new">here</A> which is free and see for yourself the AMD errata docs. You will find a prettly long list of errors in the processors. There you will also find possible workarounds for them or whether a fix is planned in a later revision.

Neither Intel not AMD guys are foolish to release a processor full of crap. These errors are usually minor bugs that slip through a 35~50 million transistor maze and years of testing and debugging. Its a miracle in itself that the chips actually work!

Occassionaly bigger errors pass through and then the company has to face a humiliation of replacing or recalling the chips. Remember Pentium Dan-411 bug? Remember P-III 1.13 GHz? Remember MTH? Oops! They are all intel!

BTW Tejas where are you? I wish a Happy Diwali to you and all others, and Fugger too!

girish

<font color=red>No system is fool-proof. Fools are Ingenious!</font color=red>
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
November 13, 2001 5:13:57 PM

K6-2 girish.

-Spuddy

<font color=red>Being Evil Is Good. Cause I Can Be A Prick And Get Away With It.</font color=red> :lol: 
November 13, 2001 8:15:09 PM

Meaning...what? The K6-x was quite stable, it just wasn't a great performer. Put it on a decent Socket 7 chipset and it was rock solid.

Kelledin
<A HREF="http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/" target="_new">LFS</A>: "You don't eat or sleep or mow the lawn; you just hack your distro all day long."
November 13, 2001 8:20:48 PM

I have a K6-III+. It has been up running seti@home (550MHz) for over 300 days. Should be stable enough? ;o)

/* The more you know, the more you realize how little you know */
November 13, 2001 8:23:17 PM

Can't believe you are talking about denial...

/* The more you know, the more you realize how little you know */
November 13, 2001 8:45:20 PM

That's probably why they can exceed La Intella speed/quality with almost half the size of the core? Who is lying..? You don't get it. Amd is doing the x86 world the biggest favour ever. Even Intel fans benefit from it. AMD is giving some serious competition....

If you would compare the prices with the top-end cpu's a couple of years ago, with the prices of the top-end cpu’s today, you would find out how cheap we can get a high-end workstation machine. It doesn't matter if it is a P4 or an Athlon XP as long as it is affordable. Right now AMD has the upper hand but I'm sure Intel will fight back. Times are good for us consumers and we will get a high-end machine for an excellent price (Read: Athlon XP). What more do you want?


/* The more you know, the more you realize how little you know */
November 13, 2001 11:22:19 PM

I guess Intel has more bugs then AMD in their CPU. But what I don't get is when I look at the Forums at THG and AnandTech I can't help but notice people asking for help with their AMD Processor or Their AMD Platform. I don't really care who has better Processor. What I want to know is who has a Better platform to offer.

May be Pentiums do have more bugs then Athlons. But If you put a Pentium Platform togather using 850 chipset and all other components. I think you will get much more stabel platform then AMD's. You may disagree with me. But just go back and look at this forum you will find tons of users looking for help for AMD platform.

KG.
November 14, 2001 12:46:44 AM

Granted that IS true....but If you, Meltdown, FUGGER, Intel_Inside and a few others would realize, the majority of the peopel who are part of this Forum and that Visit the THG Web Site are AMD Users, and the Majority of AMD Users are Entusiast's who like MORE POWER AND MORE PWOER becasue MORE POWER = BETTER......know what I'm saying ??

Meltdown complains about how AMD Zealot's say Intel users get ripepd off with so many Platform changes meanwhile the AMD pup's go through liek 3 or 4 motherbaords.........yes, of course they do.....why?? becaseu they WANT TO, THERERS MOER SELECTION/CHOICE and to everyone, BIGGER IS BETTER...know what im saying now ???

There is realyl no TECHNICAL NEED for that new part...but they want it.....
If the P4 had more options and VERY MANY DIFFERENT OPTIONS than the people that use the P4 would do the same....its just that the AMD Platform is the market of OVERCLOCKERS, ENTHUSIAST'S, GAMERS, DREAMERS, etc.....MOST Support....More products available for AMD Platform (Sis 735, AliMAGIK1, AMD 761, AMD 762, Via KT133, Via KT133a, Via KT266, Via KT266a, nVidia nForce, etc.) Asus, Abit, MSI, Iwill, ECS, PCChips....they ALL make baords for both AMD and Intel chips BUT if you notice...the majority of them are AMD Based baords..beacsue they know people will upgrade to the biggest and best.....and unfortunently thats NOT possible for the P4 Platform as they liek to Sue everyone who makes something sitauted on the P4 Platform..........oh well, advantage AMD Users.....

'Nuff Said!




-MeTaL RoCkEr

<A HREF="http://www.anandtech.com/mysystemrig.html?id=13597" target="_new"> <b> My Rig </b> </A>
November 14, 2001 4:03:04 AM

what about K6-II? what for??

I have three K6-IIs, each overclocked by about 50~75 MHz and I never had a problem. I also happen to have a K6-II that has the graphic and audio bug, but they are not any serious problems as floating point bugs are!

As far as performance goes what levels of performance are expected from Socket7 processors? With a 100 MHz FSB and 550 MHz speeds specwise its closer to the PII but its still the old core.

All in all I have found it pretty reasonable for a socket7 (super7) processor, certainly better than the Celeron.

<font color=red>No system is fool-proof. Fools are Ingenious!</font color=red>
November 14, 2001 4:11:53 AM

not again!

Why does intel have to change platforms so often?

P3: 4 platforms
P4: 2 platforms already and counting
Athlon: 2, but the first one wasnt worth counting anyway.

It was really interesting for P3 users needing to change the board every 6 months, see Slot1->Socket370 PPGA->Socket370 FCPGA->Socket370 FCPGA2! Are they so short sighted that they have to do it occasionally?

PGA423 -> mPGA478, why the hell?

and consider Socket A, its going to stay till the end, the Thunderbirds have used it, the Palomonis have used it, the Thoroughbreds will use it, Bartons will use it too. While all current motherboards will support them, people will like to upgrade their boards to get more out of it.

<font color=red>No system is fool-proof. Fools are Ingenious!</font color=red>
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
November 14, 2001 11:30:46 AM

You have a point here. However, I think there are a few reasons that help explain this:

1) im pretty sure the number of AMD users is (much) higher than the number of intel users on these forums. Why ? because people who read Anandtech, THG, etc are more likely to be tweakers, overclockers, DIY builders, gamers, etc. When you have more users, you have more problems. But I agree that alone doesnt explain it.

2) Buyers on a budget are almost automatically attracted to the Athlon (or Duron). But if you have a tight budget, you'r also likely to buy cheap motherboards, cheap memory, cheap PSU's, cheap heatsinks,VIA based motheboards (;-) .. etc.. all of which can cause instabililty and problems. Its really frightening to see how many people run their high end Athlons on cheap 200 or 250w power supplies.

Also.. when you pay like $50 for a motherboard (for the ECS K7S5).. can you expect the same quality, testing etc as for your average i850 board that easily costs twice as much ?

So more often than not, its not the Athlon, nor socket A that is to blame, but its cheap components that cause problems. And these cheap components are far more often found in AMD based systems, Im sure.

3) Lastly, correct me if Im wrong. But it seems their are far more (third party) chipsets available for the Athlon, than for any intel cpu. This gives the advantage of lower prices, more choice for the end user.. but a much higher risk of issues of all kind. While not AMD's fault, this is an issue. In fact, I spite of the number of existing platforms, I am still waiting for the killer motherboard to come out. Its not a KT266A based board (god forbid. no more via for me), its not my current SiS735 board (though it comes close).. it not the "slower " ALI based DDR board.. The AMD 760 came close.. and I hope the nForce will fit the shoe.. we'll see.

= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my wife. =
November 14, 2001 4:17:24 PM

the number of AMD users are higher because:

1. THG was becoming very biased towards AMD, when Van was here so naturally AMDpups flocked to THG, this is changing.

2. more AMD users have to seek help, advice and general sympathy for their mistake in choosing that platform.

"<b>AMD/VIA!</b>...you are <i>still</i> the weakest link, good bye!"
November 14, 2001 4:23:24 PM

>WinXP causes Intel mobile chips to overheat
http://213.219.40.69/12110104.htm

LOL! I followed your link and got <A HREF="http://www.theinquirer.net/13110109.htm" target="_new">this</A> OOPS! how ironic!

<A HREF="http://WinXP has problem with
AMD mobile chips too" target="_new">WinXP has problem with AMD mobile chips too</A>

"<b>AMD/VIA!</b>...you are <i>still</i> the weakest link, good bye!"
November 14, 2001 4:33:35 PM

Nice link, Meltdown. Did bowser help you with that one?

Sorry, couldn't resist.

<font color=orange>Quarter</font color=orange> <font color=blue>Pounder</font color=blue> <font color=orange>Inside</font color=orange>
November 14, 2001 11:05:54 PM

RoFL, I guess Van's been to AnandTech, [H]ardOCP, and Ace'sHardware as well? If these boards are anything to go by, <b>almost everyone</b> with real technical knowledge seems to be buying AMD CPUs. Seems they know something you don't. :lol: 

Oh, and nice link. Just about the only thing I learned from that link is that zealots have the hardest time making clickable URLs...

Kelledin
<A HREF="http://www.linuxfromscratch.org" target="_new">LFS</A>: "You don't eat or sleep or mow the lawn; you just hack your distro all day long."
!