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PCI or PCI-e for W7

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Anonymous
a b V Motherboard
a b $ Windows 7
May 18, 2010 11:26:16 PM

Hello,

I have a ep45-ud3p motherboard and a pci X-fi fatality card and i am experiencing the dreaded "rice crispies" sound treatment. From what i have found in my research for clean sound... PCI is not what W7 is geared for, the communication speed in the audio stack is not compatible. But, the PCI-e 1x cards are.

Before I invest in another $150- 200 sound card when my current one is not broken nor outdated, can you tell me if W7 requires the PCI-e card to create sound properly?

More about : pci pci

a b V Motherboard
a b $ Windows 7
May 18, 2010 11:31:22 PM

I have both the Asus Xonar D1 and the Creative XFI PCI editions installed on two of my Windows 7 64 systems without any issues as far as sound production or bad quality sound.
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Anonymous
a b V Motherboard
a b $ Windows 7
May 18, 2010 11:43:04 PM

I am not running the 64 bit os. But i am receiving an occasional crackle or pop while gaming or surfing the net without any audio being played. I have the latest drivers and still sup par audio quality. Note I never had an issue like this until i migrated to W7 for the performance boost and the full use of my 4 GB of ram.
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Related resources
a b V Motherboard
a b $ Windows 7
May 18, 2010 11:50:50 PM

Both the PCI and PCIE 1x connectors are part of the same system BUS. I really haven't done research if one or the other 'performs' better or differently as far as sound production. So I don't know. How about playing music on the CD player. Or a movie on the DVD player. The same 'crackle and pop' while surfing the internet?
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May 20, 2010 5:12:07 AM

Below is my findings on the difference between PCI and PCIe from Wikipedia

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These specifications represent the most common version of PCI used in normal PCs.
33.33 MHz clock with synchronous transfers
peak transfer rate of 133 MB/s (133 megabytes per second) for 32-bit bus width (33.33 MHz × 32 bits ÷ 8 bits/byte = 133 MB/s)
32-bit bus width
32- or 64-bit memory address space (4 gigabytes or 16 exabytes)
32-bit I/O port space
256-byte (per device) configuration space
5-volt signaling
reflected-wave switching
The PCI specification also provides options for 3.3 V signaling, 64-bit bus width, and 66 MHz clocking, but these are not commonly encountered outside of PCI-X support on server motherboards.
The PCI bus arbiter performs bus arbitration among multiple masters on the PCI bus. Any number of bus masters can reside on the PCI bus, as well as requests for the bus. One pair of request and grant signals is dedicated to each bus master.




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Architecture

PCIe, unlike previous PC expansion standards, is structured around point-to-point serial links, a pair of which (one in each direction) make up a lane; rather than a shared parallel bus. These lanes are routed by a hub on the main-board acting as a crossbar switch. This dynamic point-to-point behavior allows more than one pair of devices to communicate with each other at the same time. In contrast, older PC interfaces had all devices permanently wired to the same bus; therefore, only one device could send information at a time. This format also allows channel grouping, where multiple lanes are bonded to a single device pair in order to provide higher bandwidth.
The number of lanes is negotiated during power-up or explicitly during operation. By making the lane count flexible, a single standard can provide for the needs of high-bandwidth cards (e.g., graphics, 10 Gigabit Ethernet and multiport Gigabit Ethernet cards) while being economical for less demanding cards.
Unlike preceding PC expansion interface standards, PCIe is a network of point-to-point connections. This removes the need for bus arbitration or waiting for the bus to be free, and enables full duplex communication. While standard PCI-X (133 MHz 64 bit) and PCIe ×4 have roughly the same data transfer rate, PCIe ×4 will give better performance if multiple device pairs are communicating simultaneously or if communication between a single device pair is bidirectional.
Format specifications are maintained and developed by the PCI-SIG (PCI Special Interest Group), a group of more than 900 companies that also maintain the Conventional PCI specifications.

(History)
PCI Express 2.0
PCI-SIG announced the availability of the PCI Express Base 2.0 specification on 15 January 2007.[9] The PCIe 2.0 standard doubles the per-lane throughput from the PCIe 1.0 standard's 250 MB/s to 500 MB/s. This means a 32-lane PCI connector (x32) can support throughput up to 16 GB/s aggregate. The PCIe 2.0 standard uses a base clock speed of 5.0 GHz, while the first version operates at 2.5 GHz.
PCIe 2.0 motherboard slots are fully backward compatible with PCIe v1.x cards. PCIe 2.0 cards are also generally backward compatible with PCIe 1.x motherboards, using the available bandwidth of PCI Express 1.1. Overall, graphic cards or motherboards designed for v 2.0 will be able to work with the other being v 1.1 or v 1.0.
The PCI-SIG also said that PCIe 2.0 features improvements to the point-to-point data transfer protocol and its software architecture.[10]
In June 2007 Intel released the specification of the Intel P35 chipset which supports only PCIe 1.1, not PCIe 2.0.[11] Some people may be confused by the P35 block diagram which states the Intel P35 has a PCIe x16 graphics link (8 GB/s) and 6 PCIe x1 links (500 MB/s each).[12] For simple verification one can view the P965 block diagram which shows the same number of lanes and bandwidth but was released before PCIe 2.0 was finalized.[original research?] Intel's first PCIe 2.0 capable chipset was the X38 and boards began to ship from various vendors (Abit, Asus, Gigabyte) as of October 21, 2007.[13] AMD started supporting PCIe 2.0 with its AMD 700 chipset series and nVidia started with the MCP72.[14] The specification of the Intel P45 chipset includes PCIe 2.0.
[edit]PCI Express 2.1
PCI Express 2.1 supports a large proportion of the management, support, and troubleshooting systems planned to be fully implemented in PCI Express 3.0. However, the speed is the same as PCI Express 2.0.
[edit]PCI Express 3.0
In August 2007, PCI-SIG announced that PCI Express 3.0 will carry a bit rate of 8 gigatransfers per second. The final specification is due in the second quarter of 2010 and will be backwards compatible with existing PCIe implementations.[15] New features for PCIe 3.0 specification include a number of optimizations for enhanced signaling and data integrity, including transmitter and receiver equalization, PLL improvements, clock data recovery, and channel enhancements for currently supported topologies.[16]
Following a six-month technical analysis of the feasibility of scaling the PCIe interconnect bandwidth, PCI-SIG's analysis found out that 8 gigatransfers per second can be manufactured in mainstream silicon process technology, and can be deployed with existing low-cost materials and infrastructure, while maintaining full compatibility (with negligible impact) to the PCIe protocol stack.
PCIe 2.0 delivers 5 GT/s, but employs an 8b/10b encoding scheme which results in a 20 percent overhead on the raw bit rate. By removing the requirement for the 8b/10b encoding scheme, and replacing it with a 128b/130b encoding scheme that has ~1.5 percent overhead,[17] PCIe 3.0's 8 GT/s bit rate effectively delivers double PCIe 2.0 bandwidth. According to an official press release by PCI-SIG on 8 August 2007:
"The final PCIe 3.0 specifications, including form factor specification updates, may be available by late 2009, and could be seen in products starting in 2010 and beyond."[18]
As of January 2010, the release of the final specifications has been delayed until Q2 2010.[19] PCI-SIG expects the PCIe 3.0 specifications to undergo rigorous technical vetting and validation before being released to the industry. This process, which was followed in the development of prior generations of the PCIe Base and various form factor specifications, includes the corroboration of the final electrical parameters with data derived from test silicon and other simulations conducted by multiple members of the PCI-SIG.

(communication speed)

Physical layer
The PCIe Physical Layer (PHY, PCIEPHY , PCI Express PHY, or PCIe PHY) specification is divided into two sub-layers, corresponding to electrical and logical specifications. The logical sublayer is sometimes further divided into a MAC sublayer and a PCS, although this division is not formally part of the PCIe specification. A specification published by Intel, the PHY Interface for PCI Express (PIPE),[20] defines the MAC/PCS functional partitioning and the interface between these two sub-layers. The PIPE specification also identifies the physical media attachment (PMA) layer, which includes the serializer/deserializer (SerDes) and other analog circuitry; however, since SerDes implementations vary greatly among ASIC vendors, PIPE does not specify an interface between the PCS and PMA.
At the electrical level, each lane consists of two unidirectional LVDS or PCML pairs at 2.525 Gbit/s. Transmit and receive are separate differential pairs, for a total of 4 data wires per lane. (2x2.525Gbit/s=5.05Gbit/s effective speed on 1x PCIe slot)
A connection between any two PCIe devices is known as a link, and is built up from a collection of 1 or more lanes. All devices must minimally support single-lane (x1) link. Devices may optionally support wider links composed of 2, 4, 8, 12, 16, or 32 lanes. This allows for very good compatibility in two ways:
a PCIe card will physically fit (and work correctly) in any slot that is at least as large as it is (e.g., an ×1 sized card will work in any sized slot);
a slot of a large physical size (e.g., ×16) can be wired electrically with fewer lanes (e.g., ×1, ×4, or ×8) as long as it provides the power and ground connections required by the larger physical slot size.
In both cases, PCIe will negotiate the highest mutually supported number of lanes.
Even though the two would be signal-compatible, it is not usually possible to place a physically larger PCIe card (e.g., a ×16 sized card) into a smaller slot —though some motherboards have open-ended PCIe slots that will allow this.
The width of a PCIe connector is 8.8 mm, while the height is 11.25 mm, and the length is variable. The fixed section of the connector is 11.65 mm in length and contains 2 rows of 11 (22 pins total), while the length of the other section is variable depending on the number of lanes. The pins are spaced at 1 mm intervals, and the thickness of the card going into the connector is 1.8 mm.[21][22]



Since there is a vast difference in communication speed, don't you think it is possible that W7 is not fully capable of communicating with the slower card and drivers alone can't fix the problem? All I want is a simple answer to this question... is my PCI X-fi card not rated for my System/OS? Yes I may have PCI slots on my motherboard but are they to be considered in the ranks of ISA slots with the introduction of faster bus speeds and CPU/memory clocks?
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a b V Motherboard
a b $ Windows 7
May 20, 2010 5:22:11 AM

Send an email to the technical support team of the sound card you are interested in and see what their response to your question is.
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May 20, 2010 5:53:52 AM

Remember, if you were building your own pc 10 years ago... Add-in cards did more for your pc than just better sound and graphics... They relieved the CPU of duties and in turn gave you better performance all around! Well from my understanding nothing has changed. The only problem is, no one is informing the public of the advantages of the new Connections! All you hear about is how a new Video card will give you a better picture! but the last time i watched a movie in IMAX, They made sure you knew that it was in THX. Why can't the audio community get on board with the program?

Creative grew to their current standings on sales to gamers who wanted better sound and got petter performance as an added bonus. Many competitors have failed to take the crown. I alone have owned 4 of their cards. But my latest build is lacking. Poor audio performance, mediocre audio quality. and little to no support or explanation on what is causing the issue. Is it a hardware or software problem? Or both?

Either way in my eyes and many consumers, it all boils down to Creative's lack of ownership. Yes, they make many flavors of the X-fi card, but if there are so many complaints. Here is one solution, how about an explanation? A road map of your products, maybe? A little testing to state what chipsets require your PCIe devices maybe? I am just saying what everyone else has been thinking since they rebuilt their system with the understanding that if they have a PCI slot then they can continue to use your product and get the same quality sound.

Rather than competing with Apple and their personal media device, stick to what you did best! Create audio excellence! Show some pride by testing and supporting your product. Stop giving the consumer the mushroom treatment! (keeping them in the dark and feeding them loads of crap)

Enough with my ranting. Reply if you agree or have an answer to our request

signed

the consumer
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a b V Motherboard
a b $ Windows 7
May 20, 2010 10:36:10 AM

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Remember, if you were building your own pc 10 years ago... Add-in cards did more for your pc than just better sound and graphics... They relieved the CPU of duties and in turn gave you better performance all around!


This is a totally wrong misconception on your part.

Quote:
Well from my understanding nothing has changed.


You have a misunderstanding, not understanding. PCIE x1 does not offer any additional needed bandwith any supplier of a PCIE x1 soundcard releases. The PCIE x1 slot is a smaller footprint than a PCI slot for MB makers. Creative Labs didn't release PCIE x1 sound cards because their bandwidth powered by a PCIE x1 connector makes the card sound better. Nor does a PCIE x1 wireless adapter 'link' better. The PCIE x1 adapter was instituted out of convienance not performance issues.


Quote:
The only problem is, no one is informing the public of the advantages of the new Connections!


If there were any sound performance advantages of using a PCIE x1 connector Creative Labs would have busted your eardrums telling you so so.


Quote:
All you hear about is how a new Video card will give you a better picture


Last time I checked, they were supposed to be better than the previous generation card.

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but the last time i watched a movie in IMAX, They made sure you knew that it was in THX. Why can't the audio community get on board with the program?


Remember the last time you heard the old adage about mixing apples and oranges?

Quote:
Creative grew to their current standings on sales to gamers who wanted better sound and got petter performance as an added bonus.


You could call better sound, better performance. But better had nothing to do with the 12v power or bandwidth coming out a system BUS slot. Bandwidth is not a problem. Your speakers may need an upgrade, but the bandwidth of a PCI slot is not an issue with the performance.


Quote:
Many competitors have failed to take the crown.


The few that are in the high end sound card arena are very competitive. The crown you speak of is disputable if anything.

Quote:
I alone have owned 4 of their cards. But my latest build is lacking. Poor audio performance, mediocre audio quality. and little to no support or explanation on what is causing the issue. Is it a hardware or software problem? Or both?


I doubt it has anything to do with the Windows 7 operating system. More in line with end user lack of knowledge and general confusion about the technology.

Quote:
Either way in my eyes and many consumers, it all boils down to Creative's lack of ownership.


Well which is it, your eyes or does everyone think Creative's cards have a Windows 7 12v power and bandwith issue with all the new technology involved with a PCIE x1 slot you are asserting?


Quote:
Yes, they make many flavors of the X-fi card, but if there are so many complaints.



Most of the complaints are driver related. Nothing much I have heard about a lack of 12v power and inadequate bandwidth in their cards. Internet surfing and popping noises are a thing Creative Labs online tech support may be able to address if basic troubleshooting fails to produce a solution.


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Here is one solution, how about an explanation?


Contact them. Their techs are trained to answer questions with explanations about how a sound card works.

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A road map of your products, maybe?



Nah, I'm a history buff, but not in mood for geography lessons

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A little testing to state what chipsets require your PCIe devices maybe?


Creative Labs research and develpment? Why yes 'a little testing' describes them exactly.

Quote:
I am just saying what everyone else has been thinking since they rebuilt their system with the understanding that if they have a PCI slot then they can continue to use your product and get the same quality sound.


If any BUS interface on a MB's BUS system produced superior quality sound than a PCI slot, the sound card company's would let you know loud and clear.

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Rather than competing with Apple and their personal media device, stick to what you did best!


Yeah, no need to compete with you competition.

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Create audio excellence!


PCIE x1 for the win!

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Show some pride by testing and supporting your product.


I'm with you and so is the moral majority. I'm a political man.

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Stop giving the consumer the mushroom treatment! (keeping them in the dark and feeding them loads of crap)


Step into the dark. I mean into the mushroom.

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Enough with my ranting. Reply if you agree or have an answer to our request


This is exactly why they make drugs

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signed

the consumer


I don't think so.
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a c 124 V Motherboard
a b $ Windows 7
May 20, 2010 3:39:05 PM

Just going to point out that I have my old Audigy 2zs and it works near perfect under windows 7 64-bit(sometimes I loose CMSS) with the daniel_K drivers pack. You have 2 PCI slots, please try the other one. Also try to route your data cables far as you can away from the sound card. You may be picking up interference.
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May 20, 2010 4:38:59 PM

Thanks for your reply, but rather than attacking my understanding of the situation, an explanation is the goal of this thread. I understand that the times have changed but the overall goal of the architecture has not.

Quote:
Remember the last time you heard the old adage about mixing apples and oranges?


I am sorry if you do not understand that the human senses of vision and hearing don't change. So expecting the see and hear the same quality regardless of size or volume is not a mixing of apples and oranges, just the difference one to a bushel.

Quote:
Nah, I'm a history buff, but not in mood for geography lessons... I'm a political man.


If you can tell me you can learn history without geography I have beach front property in Iowa for you, and historical politicians mediated geographical borders by use of treaties and laws.

Quote:
If any BUS interface on a MB's BUS system produced superior quality sound than a PCI slot, the sound card company's would let you know loud and clear.


Communication is key in todays world. Today's PC is 100 time faster than 10 years ago. Why? Because not only can the CPU process more data in less time, it is more efficient because it can communicate with the other components in the system faster than ever before.

Think of it like this, 6 people are on similar PC's in a Gigabit lan playing a game. 5 have Gigabit a NIC and the last has 100Mbit NIC. From experience I have learned that not only will he experience lag but he will also cause sync issues on the other systems. This idea is also true of the:
1. CPU
2. MEMORY (RAM)
3. STORAGE (HARDDRIVE)
4. VIDEO (GPU)
5. AUDIO (DSI)
6. NETWORKING (ETHERNET)

Yes there is also switching involved in a network and that is where the chipsets (northbridge &southbridge) come into play. But, no matter how good the device is, its communication to the rest of the system looks to be the problem. Drivers only tell the OS how to control the hardware, not how the hardware operates.

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Yeah, no need to compete with you competition.


The leaders in any Industry set the standards, the rest chase it.

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Creative Labs research and develpment? Why yes 'a little testing' describes them exactly... If any BUS interface on a MB's BUS system produced superior quality sound than a PCI slot, the sound card company's would let you know loud and clear.

At the pace of technology PCIe 2.0 has been widely available since October 2007 and there has not been a word about why the NEW X-fi is better than the old one.
Case in point, Creative has 2 X-fi cards on their site priced the same:



What is the the change? Acronyms mean little. Numbers tell more, maybe there needs to be a benchmark system for audio cards like there are for video?
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May 20, 2010 4:42:37 PM

I have tried both PCI slots, and all cables are routes away from the add -in cards with exception of the USB riser (no choice due to cable length and placement of connection).
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a c 124 V Motherboard
a b $ Windows 7
May 20, 2010 5:42:42 PM

So it is just a clicky pop every now and then, or all the time?
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May 20, 2010 5:44:02 PM

every now and then... gets worse in a game.
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May 20, 2010 6:33:09 PM

Quote:
If any BUS interface on a MB's BUS system produced superior quality sound than a PCI slot, the sound card company's would let you know loud and clear.


Like this?
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!