Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (
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Symbol wrote:
> "Dirk Collins" wrote:
>
>>Andy Luker wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Since it's only a DC15 survival roll to avoid a natural hazard/getting
>>>lost (maybe with the standard -2 if it's a very dense forest) is it
>>>worth the effort? Most parties I've seen can manage that on a take 10.
>>
>>Oh, yeah. o.k. So uhh... there are no circumstancial modifiers for
>>getting lost?
>>
>>What about heavy rain (tropical forest) / snow (mountains) /
>>sandstorm (desert)? According to my copy of Sandstorm, a duststorm
>>provides a -2 penalty to visibility making the DC of a survival
>>roll effectively 17.
>>
>>I would routinely add the following modifiers to that base DC 15
>>survival check for players in forest settings based on the
>>following circumstances:
>>
>>Condition base DC Modifier
>>==========================================
>>Heavy Trees and Overgrowth +5
>>Dense Trees & Undergrowth +10
>>Patches of Impenetrable Forest +12-15
>
>
> Lay of the crack pipe Dirk. An effective DC 30 check to avoid getting
> lost? You realize the level of difficulty that is supposed to represent
> don't you?
First... Don't insult people, unless you can first spell
correctly, and also write correctly. It detracts from your
credibility, and you thusly lose the effect you intend when
everyone realizes just what a retard you really are in being
either too lazy, or too stupid to do even try to do something right.
Second, and I was going to address this second point with Andy as
well... The generic +-2 circumstance modifier for DC's is
insufficent in regards to properly creating a challenging
adventure when it comes to exploration of wilderland areas.
Having any character with an outdoor skill focus such as Survival,
Wilderness lore, Knowledge(Geography), Knowledge(Local), or a
similar skill will render the additional trivial penalties imposed
by the DMG for circumstances useless. Now Frostburn and Sandstorm
have upped the ante a bit in creating a more challenging
environment, in that they have provided additional bonuses and
penalties for travel through rugged terrain or difficult weather
conditions, however those modifiers are far from inclusive, and
represent a feeble stab at adding some really excellent
opportunities for roleplaying and creative gameplay.
Foremost, no party in the wilderness should be without experienced
guides or scouts. If they are, and are in a wilderness area, they
should find it remarkably easy to get lost, or otherwise
disoriented while traveling.
In addition... IRL in real wilderness (You know... the places
without roads, people to ask for directions from, and friendly
convenience stores with maps), it is easy for even experienced
adventurers to get lost. Every year, even veteran hikers and
mountain climbers die, get lost, and/or require the aid of a
search and rescue team on account they get disoriented while
traveling due to terrain and/or weather conditions. While It's a
bit harder for experienced hikers to actually get lost these days
on account of GPS receivers and the availability of excellent
quality maps, it still happens with an amazing frequency. But then
again, you didn't know that, or were not aware of that until now,
living in the open desert, Kansas, Nebraska, or your well marked
suburb, or town and all.
The problem with lakes is not that it is an obvious landmark, it's
like when you get too many lakes, and they are all obvious
landmarks. Easy to get confused as to which lake (landmark) you
are actually navigating at the moment. To understand what I'm
talking about, you would have to take an extended visit to, or
live in the wilderness areas of Idaho, Wyoming, Montana (Colorado
doesn't really count anymore...), Minnesota, Canada, Michigan,
Louisiana, Arkansas, Mississippi, Northern California, Utah, New
Mexico, Florida, or Alaska... to name a few.
The synergy bonus for area familiarity, is likewise inadequate.
When you consider that a 5th level character can have 8 ranks in
survival, and will often have a +1 or better stat bonus, it means
the DC 15 survival check for getting lost can be beat 80% of the
time, or better (With any knowledge synergy bonus). This is a
flip-flop on what actually happens (even with experienced
wilderland travelers). Usually, without a map, and/or navigational
aids the seasoned wilderland traveler will actually only arrive at
his/her intended destination about 20% of the time on the first
attempt.
Bad weather will force a party to slow down, and I'm ok with the
additional sandstorm/frostburn rules for that, but the party will
also slow down due to terrain as well, and calculating just how
much they are slowed down, depends of course, on the direction (or
many different directions), they travel, or the direction the
terrain forces them to travel, on any given day. Using my mods,
you can calculate that with a bit more detail, to provide more
adhoc, and/or spontaneous opportunities for roleplaying instead of
rollplaying.
The +2 DC penalty for being tracked that I've provided, doesn't
mean the party automagically slows down (so they can be easily
caught by their pursuers), it is provided on account they are
distracted from navigating correctly... on account, they are
focused on the folks following them. The party won't slow down,
especially if they are being followed, but it's easier for them to
miss subtle clues that will allow them to easily reach their
intended destination.
Yes, D&D has a compass. It's part of the Navigator's Kit available
in Arms & Equipment Guide, and provides a +2 bonus for Intuit
Direction, Survival, or WIlderness Lore checks (While at sea), and
on Profession(Cartographer) checks to make maps. Nothing on
navigating overland with a compass however...
Andy Wrote:
"A lot of modifiers to remember, most of which boil down to "you
can't see far enough to see any landmarks" so just stiff them with
the -4 spot penalties from the DMG weather section and the
slowed/impossible movement rate & risk of hyperthermia."
I'd think that being able to see only 10'-40' in a heavy fog would
preclude seeing far enough to spot any landmarks at all unless
they happen to stumble right onto the landmark itself. -4 seems
inadequate when viewed in this light.
I keep my list handy, especially when the party travels into
uncharted territory. Slows them down some, but then again,
traveling outside of commonly known routes tends to do that, even
for veterans, and other experienced wilderland adventurers. That's
why it's called trailblazing.
Finally on DC:
DC 5 - Easy, anyone should be able to do this
DC 10 - An Average challenge, Anyone can do this with enough time
DC 15 - Tough
DC 20 - Challenging
DC 25 - Formidable
Dc 30 - Heroic
DC 35 - Superheroic
DC 40+ - Nearly Impossible - Only the most highly trained veteran
would even have a remote chance of succeeding
What an adventurer with Max Skill Ranks, a +2 Circumstance Bonus,
and a +1 Stat Mod Bonus taking 10 can beat, Without the help of
other party members, No roll being required...
1st Level DC 17
5th Level DC 22
10th Level DC 27
15th Level DC 32
20th Level DC 37
A DC 30 obstacle, isn't so challenging as it would at first seem
to be...
Re,
Dirk
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