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AMD BURNUP

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January 3, 2002 6:42:42 PM

Im new to AMD processers,which means I don't personally have any experience with this processer.I know a lot of people that have the 1.7 Athlon, but it seem to burn up if you look at it crosseyed. Is this a wide spread problem or are my freinds just hard on there AMDS.

Earl,Hou'd you get that harly up on that dive board?

More about : amd burnup

January 3, 2002 6:53:40 PM

You know a lot of people that have the 1.7 Athlon? Is this the Thunderbird core or a Classic Athlon?

<font color=orange>Quarter</font color=orange> <font color=blue>Pounder</font color=blue> <font color=orange>Inside</font color=orange>
January 3, 2002 6:57:47 PM

I assume he is talking about the Athlon XP 1700+, right? There is no 1.7GHz Athlon.

-Raystonn


= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my employer. =
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January 3, 2002 7:04:37 PM

not sure ,i'll ask.(not freinds really more like colleagues)
simply put, is this a wide spread problem? does the core make a difference to burnup?
i have no experience with AMD,so i might not be asking the right question.


Earl,Hou'd you get that harly up on that dive board?
January 3, 2002 7:20:22 PM

This will tell you how familiar i am with AMD. the chips in question are the xp 1700+


Earl,Hou'd you get that harly up on that dive board?
January 3, 2002 7:35:00 PM

...good grief !

(as Charlie Brown would say).

<font color=purple>~* K6-2 @ 333MHz *~
I don't need a 'Gigahertz' chip to surf the web just yet ;-)</font color=purple>
January 3, 2002 7:36:14 PM

I had the same thought, I just posed that question to make sure that's what he was talking about (as opposed to a blatant troll post).

I put my heatsink on crooked with no thermal paste (I used the pad), and no case fans. My AMD has been purring along ever since. Rest assured, as long as you're not a complete idiot, you won't have to worry too much about AMDs burning up.

Granted, accidents happen. But out of all the friends I have that own AMDs (6 people or so), none of us has lost any. And yes, we all overclock.

The P4 of course has the best thermal protection. Under normal circumstances (by which I mean you install the heatsink correctly and don't drop your computer down an elevator shaft), it is unecessary. Intel did a great job designing it, but it should not be needed.

<font color=orange>Quarter</font color=orange> <font color=blue>Pounder</font color=blue> <font color=orange>Inside</font color=orange>
January 3, 2002 7:45:10 PM

My thanks for the reply. Im not a complete idiot but there is a lot I don't know.My "friends" however are a different story. I joined this community for the information and the debate. Thanks for both!!!

Earl,Hou'd you get that harly up on that dive board?
January 3, 2002 7:45:40 PM

Is it open season yet?

Complicated Nit Picker
January 3, 2002 9:24:57 PM

I'm still waiting for amdmeltdown's post (or maybe fugger's).

Yes it is possible to burn up an Athlon processor. It would require that you remove your heatsink, which is highly unlikely, but it is possible. P4's can't burn up as they automatically throttle themselves down when they start to overheat.

--------------
Knowan likes you. Knowan is your friend. Knowan thinks you're great.
January 3, 2002 9:37:47 PM

It can also happen if the fan fails and you have not properly set the motherboard's BIOS to monitor the temperature and perform a shutdown at a specific temperature. I do not know if it is configured to do that from the factory.

-Raystonn


= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my employer. =
January 3, 2002 9:59:48 PM

actually i was moving around my computer and knocked lose the fan plug from the motherboard, booted up the pc and walked away, when i came back and was already into windows i realized my pc was too quiet and NO fans (case fans nor the fan on the heatsink, which is the loudest of them all; its a delta) were running and then shut down. my cpu is still as good as it was before it, dint fry or anything.

more bang for thy buck gives me better benches then matisaro ;) 
January 3, 2002 10:05:58 PM

This would be because your processor was idle. When idle, it consumes much less power and creates very little heat. Had you been running a game, intro for a game, running Seti@home in the background, etc., the processor would have overheated. Then your system either would have shut itself off if your motherboard supports this and you configured it properly, or it would have fried.

-Raystonn


= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my employer. =
January 3, 2002 10:08:58 PM

Quote:
Had you been running a game...


Quake 3, anyone? :wink:

<font color=orange>Quarter</font color=orange> <font color=blue>Pounder</font color=blue> <font color=orange>Inside</font color=orange>
January 4, 2002 12:05:32 AM

How often does the fan actually fail? As preventive measure does keeping it clean from dust help? Should I keep a fire extinguisher at my side?

:) 

<font color=red>God</font color=red> <font color=blue>Bless</font color=blue> <font color=red>America!</font color=red>
January 4, 2002 12:27:06 AM

Quote:
How often does the fan actually fail?

Fail-safes are designed with the hope that they will never have to be used. One can never predict when it will happen.


Quote:
As preventive measure does keeping it clean from dust help?

Probably yes. The more dust you have building up within the fan's bearings/axle, the more of a load it carries as it turns. This will shorten its life.


Quote:
Should I keep a fire extinguisher at my side?

I do not know... But from the temperatures reached in Tom's video... *grin*

-Raystonn


= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my employer. =
January 4, 2002 1:52:52 AM

Seriously, how often does the fan fail? What kind of experience do you have with fan failure? I like the idea of preventive measure, but lets not make it out to be more than it is. Sometimes I wonder if Intel has it just to say they do. I have yet to see somebody report that there are serious instances of fan failure or HSF's falling off. Problems result from user error(s).

<font color=red>God</font color=red> <font color=blue>Bless</font color=blue> <font color=red>America!</font color=red>
January 4, 2002 4:39:43 AM

How about the lugs of the socket? Will they break off over time?

<i>DMA - Doesn't Mean Anything :wink: </i>
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
January 4, 2002 7:46:43 AM

>Then your system either would have shut itself off if
>your motherboard supports this and you configured it
>properly, or it would have fried.

Your forget software protection, in case you have an old motherboard/bios that wont allow you to set a temperature treshhold for auto shutdown.

btw, I tried this with my 1.4 Tbird. Disconnected *all* fans. Ran hapily seti and rtcw for over 30 mins. Not exceeding 70°C. Though I should add that was with a pretty good and expensive swiftech HS.

IM sure a cheaper heatsink would have resulted in higher temps, and most likely lockups. But I doubt it would burn. It would simply crash, thats my guess.

= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my wife. =
January 4, 2002 7:54:38 AM

Quote:
the processor would have overheated. Then your system either would have shut itself off if your motherboard supports this and you configured it properly, or it would have fried.


Or the third option you always neglect to mention, the cpu locks and you reboot and diagnose the problem. A dead fan on an attended cpu is HIGHLY unlikely to cause a fried cpu.

"The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark"
No Overclock+stock hsf=GOOD!
January 4, 2002 5:23:52 PM

Quote:
Or the third option you always neglect to mention, the cpu locks and you reboot and diagnose the problem. A dead fan on an attended cpu is HIGHLY unlikely to cause a fried cpu.

Sure, if you have an attended system, as you stated, then you can power off the system when it locks up. Unfortunately, if you do not do this, the processor will continue to overheat, even while it is locked up. It is not idle during this time. The motherboard is continuing to send the processor clocks and the processor continues to try to do something with them. In order to avoid a complete burn-up of the processor you will have to actually power down the system when it locks up.

I know many people who leave their systems on 24 hours per day, 7 days per week, running such applications as Seti@Home, benchmarks, etc. These systems are not attended all of the time. Additionally, most servers are completely unattended. The only real options are the first two that were mentioned. The option you mentioned only works for systems that you babysit all the time. I will go out on a limb and assume you think that AMD processors are worthy of not being babysat all the time. If so, it would be best to either get a motherboard that supports auto-shutdown or find specialized software that will do it for you. At any rate, I still trust the processor itself more than the third party options. It can more reliably measure temperature. AMD is planning on adding such support in the future.

-Raystonn


= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my employer. =
January 4, 2002 5:58:49 PM

I did a similar test but with a Duron at only 800mhz. I just disonnected the CPU fan. The CPU reached 70 degrees, (measured with a socket sensor), in only 8 minutes. I smelled dust cooking (which probably meant higher temperatures at the heatsink interface) and decided to stop the test. That was with case fans running.

I tried another test, propping up a case fan to point directly at CPU. This time it took 20-25 minutes to reach 70 degrees.

In one last test I mounted the case fan to point diagonally toward the CPU. This kept the CPU at 64 degrees for hours running Seti@home (I didn't have Toast at the time) with the CPU fan still disconnected.

This was OK but not as good as I had hoped. I was sure it would not have been good enough to keep my CPU running at it's normal overclocked speed of 1007mhz. I don't know if it would keep the CPU from frying.

I now have an Athlon 1000 at 1500mhz with a much better HSF. I'm think about doing some more tests. I would like to have the added insurance of a "backup fan", if you will, but I'm not sure it will work.

That Swiftech of yours must be pretty amazing to run 30 minutes sans fans.


<b>We are all beta testers!</b>
January 4, 2002 6:35:59 PM

Swiftechs are very good at working without a fan.
I've only seen one HSF review where they tested that, but it was interesting. P4 heatsink roundup, and the one that got close to last in every other test (some Thermaltake Orb) just rocked when they unplugged the fans. 3 minutes versus 1:30 for the 2nd place winner (I can't remember what case fans, or the temp threshold, or whatever).

<font color=orange>Quarter</font color=orange> <font color=blue>Pounder</font color=blue> <font color=orange>Inside</font color=orange>
January 4, 2002 7:23:34 PM

I knew they were good, expensive but good.

I'll let you know what I discover with my "backup fan" test.

By the way, BIOS and monitoring software cannot guarantee protection. Despite being an integral part of a system, the BIOS is just software. If the CPU "freezes" the BIOS won't do anything. Similarly, neither will hardware monitoring software. Once, during my Duron tests, MBM 5 actually crashed. Seti@home did not crash. Fortunately I was watching. When CPU temperature seemed to stop climbing to soon, I realized that something was wrong with MBM. I only had the alarms set but nothing happened and MBM was non-responsive. It might have been a disaster if I was doing something other than just testing.

I just discovered another potential problem. I had MBM set to shutdown. I pulled out the fan sensor lead (to simulate a fan seizure) but nothing happened. No shutdown! Examining MBM readings, the CPU fan speed was stuck on the last setting. It wasn't change just stuck. I even plugged a different fan into it but still no new readings. Stuck at the 7000+ RPM reading of my CPU fan.

OK this isn't good test but I wasn't going to jam something into my fan to force a real seizure.

The test showed me two things. 1) Either MBM doesn't always work or the RPM sensor doesn't always work. 2) My BIOS doesn't support auto shutdown. (I didn't know this!)

I really hope the backup fan idea works. I don't care if the system crashes if the CPU fan fails. I just don't want it to burn up.

<b>We are all beta testers!</b>
January 5, 2002 7:50:44 AM

Quote:
Sure, if you have an attended system, as you stated, then you can power off the system when it locks up. Unfortunately, if you do not do this, the processor will continue to overheat, even while it is locked up. It is not idle during this time. The motherboard is continuing to send the processor clocks and the processor continues to try to do something with them. In order to avoid a complete burn-up of the processor you will have to actually power down the system when it locks up.



Yes you said with inadequate cooling you can damage your cpu when you run a stress test, I took it to mean the person is actually there. If you get heatlock you must powerdown to stop it, yes. My comments were in regards to your statements.

"The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark"
No Overclock+stock hsf=GOOD!
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
January 5, 2002 9:21:32 AM

You've never had a fan fail? Man, you must be lucky. In the 10 or so years I've used IBM style PC's I've had several CPU fans fail. In the one case where I didn't find out before the thing went totally dead, I started getting random and frequent lockups shortly after booting. Luckily that was the old days when CPU's heated up much more slowly, so there wasn't permanent damage. It sure taught me to periodically check my mechanicals for wear etc. Maybe I just keep old systems too long or something, who knows. I need to start selling them just before the fan MTBF is coming.
January 5, 2002 9:48:32 AM

Quote:
If the CPU "freezes" the BIOS won't do anything.

My bios' lowest shutdown temp is 70C and now I'm worried.Are you shure that the system is unable to shut down if the cpu freezes?

BTW my cpu Vcore is at 1.55V to run it cooler.Does that make it more prone to freezing? Just curious.
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
January 5, 2002 9:54:15 AM

Why don't mother board manufacturers build in a shutdown circuit based on fan speed? A simple comparator circuit could do it.

On that note, why are there no CPU lockup detection measures in place? It seems that a CPU could be monitored for activity (or lack of) easily too. Use a I/O strobe to one of those Maxim CPU watchdog circuits, along with software which constantly strobes some predertermined I/O address.

Both ideas would just require a little extra hardware, no big deal. Unfortunatly the only way for my CPU crash monitor to work is with software support, but not enough to notice.

Can someone give me a reasonable answer as to why simple solutions like this, or even more robust ones, haven't been implemented already? With as much attention as this gets, it seems like someone would do something about it.

I better go to sleep now as this little dilema is making me cranky.
January 5, 2002 5:52:41 PM

Quote:
On that note, why are there no CPU lockup detection measures in place? It seems that a CPU could be monitored for activity (or lack of) easily too. Use a I/O strobe to one of those Maxim CPU watchdog circuits, along with software which constantly strobes some predertermined I/O address.


I agree with you completely. I have no idea why this is not standard equipment. I mean a thermister is already sitting on the socket and RPM sensing is right there on the motherboard. How hard could it be?

If not on the motherboard than how about an outboard circuit? I'm not one for spending big bucks on cooling but I would pay extra for a hardware solution for the protection problem. However, I would like some indication (like a simple LED) as to when the protection has been tripped. I wouldn't want to confuse a thermally induced shutdown PSU instability.

Monitoring CPU activity might be more difficult.

<b>We are all beta testers!</b>
January 5, 2002 6:00:54 PM

I'm sure that if the only protection is software (including BIOS) that there is a chance the protection won't work if the CPU freezes.

1.55V? That's awfully low for an Athlon and still below all Duron default voltages. If not overclocked the default voltage is where a CPU should be most stable. If overclocked, one normally needs to increase voltage and decrease temperature for stability. What CPU do you have?

<b>We are all beta testers!</b>
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
January 5, 2002 7:08:29 PM

"Monitoring CPU activity might be more difficult."

Actually it's quite common for systems which are responsible for human life etc. There are already a whole slew of precanned circuits by various manufacturers which are designed for this exact purpose. For example Maxim makes a boatload of these, also I think dallas does , and TI, and National, and on and on.

A little more detail. If there is a software process running in the background who's only purpose is to strobe an I/O line, and the I/O strobe stops, then it can safely be assumed that there has been a CPU crash. The maxim parts expect a periodic input pulse, if it is not seen in the alloted time then the maxim chip asserts a watchdog condition. By using the I/O strobe as the pulse input to the Maxim, you are effectively monitoring whether the CPU is still executing it's code. What you (the hardware) do in a watchdog condition is up to you, you could for example kill power etc.

So it's really simple and inexpensive too. This is just one idea, I know from experience it can be made to work, but I'm not a huge PC hardware/software expert so I don't know if it is so simple in this case. I for one would be willing to pay a couple extra bucks a board for that type of protection.
January 5, 2002 10:56:12 PM

I just finished a quick test.

Positioned a case fan (just 40 cfm I think) at an angle to blow toward the CPU. Turned off my CPU fan. Well normally at 1.33ghz (lowered for testing) I normally get temps in the 37 to 43 (peak) range. For the test CPU temps stabilized at 70 degrees. Hot, hot, hot but at least it didn't die and I was amazed it was still running. That's a 1.0ghz Tbird overclocked to 1.33, core voltage 1.87, Volcano 5 type heatsink with a Delta fan.

<b>We are all beta testers!</b>
January 6, 2002 12:49:04 AM

Is overclockers.com the best site to get info on overclocking.(not to be obvious,I'm pretty green with AMD and overclocking).
January 6, 2002 1:51:47 AM

AMD1200B 1.55Vcore.Minimum cooling:Miprocool with 80x80 1.5W 33cfm fan.
Case cooling a nonoise psu fan.
I ran toast about half an hour and stopped when temps reached 52C.
Right now temps are 47C/37C.
January 6, 2002 2:58:02 AM

1.55 volts? I wouldn't have believed it but if it's working and it's stable then good for you. Lower voltages keep temperatures lower as well. 52+ degrees C would be a concern only if you are overclocking. It's up to you but you might want to find out if you CPU is stable under sustained burn-in running Toast. I just feel more comfortable when I know this. If you are not "overvolting" or overclocking you don't have to worry about temperatures until you reach 75-80 degrees. (Thermal failure can occur at 90-95 degrees but that's at the core. My 75-80 degree numbers are just to allow for CPU underside temperatures being lower than actual core temperatures. Be advised this is not any kind of guarantee, just my thoughts).

<b>We are all beta testers!</b>
January 6, 2002 4:02:28 AM

It's true,1.55V.I have no clue why it's as stable as it is.
I play games like Soldier Of Fortune and such,never crashed(well that was a lie,but I think those couple of crashes were software related).I'm running WinMe so I think that explains a lot.
January 6, 2002 3:11:03 PM

I can't really say what is the best site for overclocking information but <A HREF="http://www.overclockers.com" target="_new">www.overclockers.com&lt;/A> certainly does have good information, especially the overclocking database. This contains information and stats of users' overclocking. It's good to know how well others are doing at overclocking a particular processor and, in some cases, how they went about it.

Start right here at THG. You can find some good information. See Tom's Guides.

I don't frequent overclocking sites but I do search for them for reference when I need information. Here are some sites I like.


<A HREF="http://www.extremeoverclocking.com" target="_new">http://www.extremeoverclocking.com&lt;/A>

<A HREF="http://www.overclockersonline.com/" target="_new">http://www.overclockersonline.com/&lt;/A> - especially the Hardware FAQ.

<A HREF="http://www.oc-athlonxp.com" target="_new">http://www.oc-athlonxp.com&lt;/A> - exhaustive but complicated articles on Duron/Athlon and Palomino (MP, XP, Duron Morgan) bridge and pinout counterpart decodings. Plus, links to motherboard mods to add overclocking. They partially have it working with Athlon XP's but I think some of the information is missing.

<A HREF="http://www.ocinside.de/index_e.html?/html/workshop/sock..." target="_new">http://www.ocinside.de/index_e.html?/html/workshop/sock...;/A> - Tbird and also XP interactive "painting" guides plus lots of hardcore hardware mods.

<b>We are all beta testers!</b>
February 16, 2002 5:11:26 PM

"<i>Soldier Of Fortune</i> can explain a lot". lol


if you know you don't know, the way could be more easy.
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
February 16, 2002 6:02:17 PM

Yep. That happened to me once. Cost me a brand new XP1900+ as a result. Eventually picked up a copper orb that attaches to FOUR of the socket lugs, instead of just two lugs for added safety.
February 17, 2002 4:13:28 AM

The circuitry to moniter temp and shutdown in case of overheating isnt too complicated. I saw two sites that showed you how to make a home-made version for 15$ in parts from radio shack. A fair amount of soldering in the socket though.
A thermal diode already exists in athlon and XP chips. I have recently been told only the very latest mobos actually detect and use the diode.
To answer the original question, AMD chips are no more prone to thermal failure than any other chip. Never lost one due to heat issues. Only lost one due to bent pin, was my fault.

Benchmarks are like sex, everybody loves doing it, everybody thinks they are good at it.
February 17, 2002 5:30:18 AM

well i see two reasons why u can run at 1.55v

A. your chip is exceptionally good, which should also mean u can overclock a long way

or

B. the actual voltage is considerably greater than what u set it to (this happens with mine, if i set it to 1.85v i really get 1.94v)

Overclocked athlon 1200C @ 8.5 x 166FSB + PC2700 = GOOD! :smile:
February 17, 2002 8:43:33 AM

How did you measure the voltage?
I use MBM and right now it shows 1.57V.

I have been running at 1300MHz with 1.55V and did some benchmarking without any freezing or crashing, but the temps rose over 50C and I
lowered back to 1200MHz.

So I guess I just have an oddball processor.

AMD1200AMS3B
BXHA0103FPCW
Y5985140110
February 17, 2002 8:59:49 AM

yep... MBM is the defacto standard program that everyone here uses...
so 1.57v is a fantastically low voltage to use.
thus why im suprised about how hot u get. 50C is qite warm for such a low voltage. stock heatsink? thermal pad? any case cooling?
(just curious mind)

and is 1.57v the lowest u have tried? no lockups if u run a CPU intensive application for a couple of hours?

Overclocked athlon 1200C @ 8.5 x 166FSB + PC2700 = GOOD! :smile:
February 17, 2002 11:26:50 AM

I've built the comp as quiet as possible,that means a slow rev 80x80 sleeve bearing fan on HS,one quiet case fan (33cfm)and the PSU fan.These keep the cpu temps 43C idle and below 50C under any load I've tried(toast etc.).
So the system does not run really cool but it hasn't exploded yet.

Having a sleeve bearing fan cooling the cpu is like calling for trouble,but I've set MBM settings so that it will shut down well before the cpu freezes.
(I hope!)
---------------------
stock heatsink? thermal pad?
---------------------
Miprocool heatsink.60x80 butt and 80x80 top,so it takes 80x80 fan.
No thermal pad,just a squirt of noname paste.

1.55V is the lowest the bios has.
February 17, 2002 8:45:21 PM

yes... i would agree that your CPU definately is oddball... in a good way.
thats the lowest ive ever heard a CPU running at. the previous winner i remember was a 1200C at around 1.65v.
my 1200C can only do 1.71v minimum.

and yes, a quiet case is a good idea too!
i started off with lots of fans and stuff but ive cut back.
now im running with just the enermax PSU, thermaltake 2900rpm 80mm rear casefan and a 3600rpm Pabst 80mm fan atop my huge MCX-462.

the mcx462 keeps temps down. initially it had a 5000rpm delta pumping out 68cfm. good but LOUD, so i replaced it with the pabst.

so in addition ive got both the rear casefan AND the HSF pabst fan connected to a rheostat, so when i want i can considerably reduce noise further, at the cost of around 3-4C temp increase. i do this when the weather permitts as its summer here and we have no AC.


Overclocked athlon 1200C @ 8.5 x 166FSB + PC2700 = GOOD! :smile:
February 18, 2002 9:17:09 AM

Where I live,in summertime temps allmost never exceed 30C, so I usually have
no problem with the ambient temperature.

If you would like to have even quieter box you can try 80x80 fan.There are adapters for using 80x80 fan with 60x60 HS(You know this but I put it here anyway).
This is an aussie link (I don't know where you live)<A HREF="http://www.coolpc.com.au/ducts.html" target="_new">http://www.coolpc.com.au/ducts.html&lt;/A>.
But there is one thing with bigger fans, some of them don't perform very good with the back pressure caused by the HS,thus less air flow.The cfm value with fans is a bit like the MHz value with P4.
February 19, 2002 3:50:37 PM

Heh, I like how this conversation just suddenly resumed a month and a half later, like there was no time gap.

<font color=orange>Quarter</font color=orange> <font color=blue>Pounder</font color=blue> <font color=orange>Inside</font color=orange>
February 19, 2002 4:37:02 PM

Can I see a screen cap the voltage you’re running? Not that I'm calling you a liar but would be nice to see it.


Jeff
!