Very disappointed in AMD

[Crashman]

They've had all this time to upgrade their die process to .13 micron. Their new numbering system is a sham, AMD's are supposed to be superior performers. If AMD would have gone to .13 microns they wouldn't have to lie about their speeds, they could have already been to 2.2 REAL GHz, and they could have shut up the naysayers by slapping Intel to the tune of about 20% performance wins in most apps. Who runs AMD anyway, bean counters? Bean counters have no idea about promoting a product by showing superior performance. Then again, AMD has not a clue how to promote their product anyway. Glad I'm waiting a bit longer to put together that new system, because this sucks!

A couple years ago the head of AMD went AGAINST the beancounters and produced a new chip, the Athlon, at a huge cost to the company. That chip put them back on the map. He then went against investors and built a HUGE production facility in Germany, at ENORMOUS cost to the company. Without that facility, AMD could not have increased their market share as they have and would have eventually had to leave the chip business. Investors sued. AMD got the production capacity and market share they needed anyway, and their stock values soared. Stupid investors. Stupid bean counters. Smart CEO. He was forced to resign, proving that those with perfect vision are not acceptable to AMD Corporate's looser mentality.

Another perfect example: AMD's bullet train commercial. A huge success for AMD sales. That promotion alone put AMD's sales beyond their production capacity. AMD dropped that commercial. That commercial no longer holds merrit due to their looser XP+ numbering scheme. They have the technology to be a market leader, but they don't want the crown. AMD's next adventure, figuring out how to turn diamonds to coal.

What's the frequency, Kenneth?

 

[bdaley]

Well, they're still competing very well with Intel with the .18 process, and they are going to .13 soon. So what's the big deal?

I do agree with you though, AMD needs to learn to friggin' market themselves a little bit. Every time I see an Intel Alien commercial, it makes me want to puke! Even my 65 year old mother knows what a Pentium 4 is because of those commercials.

"There's no such thing as gravity, the Earth just sucks"

 

[xxsk8er101xx]

you got an arguement. Not to mention a point.

we'll see if AMD nails their own coffin. Only time will tell. Intel is there. They will not go away. The pride is strong with Intel unlike AMD.

<A HREF="http://www.anandtech.com/mysystemrig.html?id=9933" target="_new"> My Rig </A>

 

[SerArthurDayne]

I'm sorry, but the rating system seems to be doing just what they intended... It's working much better than I expected, and I find myself referring to their model numbers rather than ghz number these days anyway. It would be nice to see more advertising however, and *effective* advertising.

As for being disappointed in AMD, I'm sure everybody is just as disappointed in Intel for reasons that some people care about and others don't. Quit being disappointed! AMD may not be perfect, which seems to be what you're complaining about, but it's pretty damned hard to even be close to exceptional, which is how I would consider their performance over the past years.

Why should AMD be the superior performer? Intel has been in the biz longer and has more money, experience and branding on their side... why haven't they blown AMD out of the water by now? Have they failed so miserably with all their resources that they can barely produce a chip every few months that merely equals the performance of AMD's top of the line?

AMD has been in delicate shoes for a long time now... you don't just make a go for the throne when your rival has the financial power to bend you to your knees... you take it slow - gain market share where you had none before, let brand recognition seep in... I don't think AMD is depending on their XP line to take them to the seat of power - that's what they're relying on the hammer line for. I not only hope but expect a marketing blitz later this year when the hammers are out.

"Laziness is a talent to be cultivated like any other" - Walter Slovotsky

 

[AmdMELTDOWN]

Amd needs to work on their thermal protection first and foremost, be a little strict on their chipset licensing then get rid of those stupid PR #'s and maybe in 10 to 20 years I'll look up at them(no matter how slow they are by that time) like I do with Intel, Motorola, IBM, Sgi, Mips, Alpha, etc.

"<b>AMD/VIA!</b>...you are <i>still</i> the weakest link, good bye!"

 

[MadCat]

I'm happy with my AMD system. Used high quality components throughtout (I build my own). My system is fast, and stable and seems to be near the top-end in the benchmark scores in 3D Marks (for non-overclocked processors). Also pleased with my choice of video card. The Athlon model numbers don't bother me. I think AMD has a bright future.

All my games plays smoothly under Windows XP/nForce/Athlon 1800+ (with the exception of DukeNukem 3D, DOS compatibility problems with sound and video resolution).

Way to go AMD!

System: K7N420 nForce, 2x Crucial 256 MB PC2100 DDR RAM, GeForce3 @ 240/500 (Ti500 reference speeds)

<A HREF="http://gamershq.madonion.com/compare.shtml?2223010" target="_new">Windows ME 3DMarks 2000 = 11,490</A>
<A HREF="http://gamershq.madonion.com/compare2k1.shtml?2401107" target="_new">Windows ME 3DMarks 2001 = 7,995</A>

<A HREF="http://gamershq.madonion.com/compare.shtml?2221836" target="_new">Windows XP 3DMarks 2000 = 11,101</A>
<A HREF="http://gamershq.madonion.com/compare2k1.shtml?2322002" target="_new">Windows XP 3DMarks 2001 = 8,137</A>

SiSofts Sandra 2001te memory benchmark:
Int ALU/RAM Bandwidth 917 MB/s
Float FPU/RAM Bandwidth 1002 MB/s

SiSofts Sandra 2001te CPU benchmark:
Dhrystone ALU 4280 MIPS
Whetstone FPU 2113 MFLOPS

 

[Crashman]

AMD made a GIGANTIC LEAP in technology with the Athlon. Why waste that lead? They have the means to maintain that lead, due to a major stumble by Intel on the P4.

You see, AMD is no longer simply a budget class CPU. Most people who buy the cheapest computer available (such as E-Machines) know nothing about hardware. So they go for Intel when it only a few dollars more, mainly because Intel has made a better name for itself. AMD's are mostly sold to techno-geeks looking for a good price on a bleeding edge processor.

For AMD to continue gaining market share, the smartest thing to do is maintain that bleeding edge performance mentality. And spread the word to potential customers. That's why AMD's are supposed to be superior performers-they have to use performance against Intel's big name in marketing. Performance IS their path to brand recognition.

AMD has been playing around with .13 micron pricess technology for many long months now. They equiped their Dresden facility with the proper tools to implement .13 micron die size when they built the thing. But they refuse to use it. Liken that to having Nitrous in your car and refusing to use it at the track.

I understand where AMD is going-they want to return to the K6 days, when they sold their CPU's based on price alone with no regard for performance. This won't work any longer, VIA can do a better job at that.

Tying simply isn't enough. With both performance AND price of the XP2000+ comparable to the P4 2000A, AMD gets no lead at their top. They could easily gain market share by making a .13 micron 2.0GHz CPU, it would cost them very little and return them their performance crown.

The best method for gaining market share is too show better performance at similar money for your product, and ADVERTISE those facts.

Maybe they are holding back so as not to steal the thunder from the HAMMER launch, but it's putting them in a very bad marketting position.

I would still assemble an XP333/XP1600+ systems given the current price of the XP1600+, if I were to assemble right now. But I'm not assembling right now because of the current static state of technology.

What's the frequency, Kenneth?

 

[Crashman]

AMD can only stick the nail in the coffin by forgetting performance completely and trying to compete on price alone. They would have to drop the release of new processors for that to happen.

What's the frequency, Kenneth?

 

[pike]

You mentionned VIA.
VIA with the Cyrix pool of engineers, will come from behind to rip away Duron and Celeron market share with more powerfull integrated products!
Just guessing
Cyrix cpus where "hot" stuff way back hi hi

Danny

Nostradamus: "In the year 2002 naked alien women will descend to earth"

 

[Crashman]

Yes, in many ways! The Cyrix 486, with it's faster write back cache, SCORCHED the Intel 486. Later, the Cyrix 6x86 could easily scorch itself, the heatsink, fan, and motherboard!

What's the frequency, Kenneth?

 

[tlaughrey]

Maybe AMD should hire you, since you have all the answers. Have you talked to them?

<i>Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance.</i>

 

[eden]

You know, the before last post of you in this topic really is strong and I have to agree strongly to it.
And you are a really respected person here, I know so, and I totally agree with you. It is true AMD has the power to go further, and I am also disappointed in how they let Intel get the lead just by an increase of cache and micron reduction, and higher speeds to feed the mass!
They should hurry up, or do something. They CAN advertise, just ONE simple add, with benchmarks to prove it, can make them top. Joes need proof on TV to believe other than Aliens!
If they make a single international add, that can seize the crowd, Intel has it coming for sure...
Then again maybe they ARE doing something hidden, we may never know... but I hope they do something as I cannot stand seeing Intel so happy about having a higher market share due to fake performance and Aliens and blue men on screen...

--
The other day I heard an explosion from the other side of town.... It was a 486 booting up...

 

[scamtrOn]

as [-peep-] up as you make them sound they are not doing bad. well their marketing does suck, but cannot say any thing about their performance. they usually come out after Intel with their new product, but always better. for the people who look at performance AMD is the choice. yes yes i know about people who look at clock speed, but most AMD fans know better. as far as them not doing too well in the market right now, it'll be ok. AMD always pulls it off with something new. for now Intel is better by a bit, but don't give up on them. its like being a fan of a football team and when they fuc* up you cheer for another team.

<font color=purple><b>I have a pc with a built-in house.</b> </font color=purple>

 

[lhgpoobaa]

you seem a bit bothered crashie?
everything ok?

and u make it sound like establishing a 0.13 micron process could be done by a preschool class.
doing a dieshift takes alot of moolah and time. also remember that intel has something like 10 times the budget to play with... in marketing, sales, tech setup and research.

i think its amazing that AMD has achieved what it has (regarding market share & performace) with a comparitively tiny budget.

while intel has the lead currently with northie, i can see things seesawing about with the introduction of amd's 0.13 process & SIO later on on one hand, and intels 533fsb on the other.

relax... take a chill pill my man



- Know thyself
- Seek
- Love
- Cherish Life
- And do not Yield!

 

[Crashman]

Yes, their response is several public publishings which point out that they are not seeking the high end of the market but instead seek to woo the masses as a value processor. In other words they thing releasing the Athlon as such a powerfull processor was a mistake, because they are trying to move downscale. Check out all the press releases they've published. Even though the Athlon proooved to be a worthy investment, they still consider the risk were too high and don't want to take such risk anymore, being scared by their last lawsuit from investors.

What's the frequency, Kenneth?

 

[Crashman]

That's my whole point, they had the power to maintain their lead and let it slip on purpose. Their marketing strategy is kuput, their available technology is state of the art!

The easiest way to win over customers is to honestly advertise a superior product. When their product superiority is gone, advertisements resort to gimmics, such as blue men.

What's the frequency, Kenneth?

 

[Crashman]

The problem is that they have the technology and refuse to use it. The XP is much faster than the P4, clock for clock, yet AMD won't use the technology they have to make a processor at equal clock rate. If they did they could stomp Intel in the performance ring. AMD fans and technofiles are AMD's core business, they win more technofiles every day. But if they let Intel pass them, how do they get more technofiles to convert?

I know they will take action eventually. But this two month stall is going to bite them in the arse. Their market growth will stall. Maybe that's what they want?

Watch, in about a month AMD will probably drop their prices dramatically in order to compete with Intel and start their market growth again. Cheaper chips=less profit. Unless they pull a rabit out of their hat NOW, the entire line will move downscale as Intel continues to release faster chips. What I'm saying is that AMD needs to move to .13 micron NOW to maintain growth in market share, and release an XP2200+ TOMARROW.

What's the frequency, Kenneth?

 

[Crashman]

When they built the Dresden facility, they said the new equipement would handle an easy change to the .13 micron die process. I don't think they lied, I think they're holding out on us.

What's the frequency, Kenneth?

 

[lhgpoobaa]

probably... i guess they would want everything perfect before a release, and the economic downturn would have slowed the technological pace somewhat.

The only loyalties i have is to Performance, Cost
Reliability and the Truth.

 

[bhc]

Crashman -- You missed one crucial thing: Intel always had the manufacturing technology lead over AMD. In terms of IC technology Intel and IBM have probably been the most leading edge for the last 15 years. In fact, if not for that technology edge (which enabled Intel make L2 cache on die for PIII), AMD Athlon would not just lead but totally dominate over PIII two years ago. If AMD can ramp up its own 130 nm technology in next three months, it actually narrows the technology gap compared to the 250 nm to 180 nm transition.

xxsk8er101xx -- Intel may have the manufacturing technology lead, but it has NO pride. Otherwise, it would never put forth a crappy product like P4. It's just marketing and making money; nothing wrong with that, but Intel has NO pride.

**Spin all you want, but we the paying consumers will have the final word**

 

[Crashman]

Intel HAS had a lead, but AMD got a whole bunch of state of the art manufacturing technology through a manufacturing agreement with Motorola BEFORE building the Dresden plant, and integrated the necessary equipment.

What's the frequency, Kenneth?

 

[bhc]

In part thanks to Motorola (180 nm/Cu metalization) and IBM (130 nm/SOI) AMD has been narrowing the gap. However, as long as Intel has the technology lead, AMD cannot really dominate, performance-wise. The ultimate PC CPU right now would be Athlon core fabricated by Intel manufacturing technology -- something unfortunately existed only in our dreams.

**Spin all you want, but we the paying consumers will have the final word**

 

[texas_techie]

Some things to remember Crash:

1- "they have the the technology but refuse to use it" - NOT TRUE. THey have experimented with the new wafer size for some time and ran into all kinds of problems. The .13 micron process is extremely difficult to get right. But they can only devote a small team of people to perfect it. One of the rooms they experimented in was the size of a one bedroom apartment. (used to work there, long story). In short they have less money and people to initiate new technology with
2. yes their marketing sucks. THey never have and probably never will make that a priority. Simply put, they cant keep up with demand anyway. Cant afford a new Fab. So why create more demand you cant fullfill anyway.
3. AMD processors do more per clock cycle than Intel. Hence at slower clock speeds they can match performance of faster intel chips. They architecture is different. So AMD would have to radically alter their architecture in order to beat Intel is the absolute numbers game. But we all know that doesnt matter, So why spend the money and risk patent infringement just to say "we are faster" when they can always say " we are better"

To reiterate someone else's point. AMD always has something in the works. The reason something isnt out in time is likely a technical one, not a marketing one. I was shocked to see how much BS is involved in getting a new chip going. Not to mention chipset. THey know EXACTLY what they are doing. But they lack the finances, resources and backing to gain more marketshare. The fact AMD is still in the game is impressive.
PS: They have an INCREDIBLE amount of pride. I have met quite a few of the folks at AMD. They believe in their products, and they are proud of them.
So cut them some slack. If the day comes AMD goes out of business, we will ALL pay twice as much for the inferior Intel chip -- dont think for a second Intel wouldnt gouge prices if they are the only game in town.

 

[Matisaro]

AMD will be on .13 by march, intel has a massive shortage of all p4's, by the time intel can supply its demand amd will be right there with them.

Like kelledin said, you try and find a northwood2.2 they are extremely rare, its almost like one of intels famous paper launches.

"The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark"
No Overclock+stock hsf=GOOD!

 

[Matisaro]

The problem is that they have the technology and refuse to use it. The XP is much faster than the P4, clock for clock, yet AMD won't use the technology they have to make a processor at equal clock rate. If they did they could stomp Intel in the performance ring. AMD fans and technofiles are AMD's core business, they win more technofiles every day. But if they let Intel pass them, how do they get more technofiles to convert?

ok crash, I grant you your rant because you are very respected. BUT AMD CANNOT CRANK UP ITS CLOCK SPEED TO P4 LEVELS, EVER.

The p4 has more pipeline stages, and thusly can increase clockspeed, the amd chip CANNOT, if all the transistors are even, it both are fabbed in the same place, the amd chip will ALWAYS have a lower top mhz and a HIGHER ipc. THAT IS HOW THE CHIP IS DESIGNED.


Frankly, if you take overclocking out of the mix, the xp2000+ is about even to the nw2200, and when the tbred is released in a few months YOU CAN ADD OVERCLOCKING RIGHT BACK IN!


There is NO reason for you to be dissapointed with amd, they have .13 micron tech, but I am sure they have their reasons for not releasing early, most likely, they want to use up the .18 micron, then use up the athlons .13 micron then hit intel with their hammer. Calm down, and give amd the time they deserve, they have served ALL OF US, very well this last year.


Of course northwood on the .13 would be able to clock higher and regain the performance crown, for the next 3 months(if intel can get their act together and actually fill their demand) they will do fine, but then amd will make the same leap, and I assure you they will keep their value.

"The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark"
No Overclock+stock hsf=GOOD!