Northwood ... That Is It!

bhc

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In the thread "Northwood … Is That It?" I asked questions about the so called "full-fledged" P4 core design, which is evidently not implemented in the latest Northwood. Amazingly, nearly 100 posts later, there still were no answers; we got plenty of AMD-vs-Intel, but no answers.

I can only guess people like Raystonn are probably under some gag order from Intel, and the others have no clues (just like me) if there is such a thing or when it's ever going to be implemented. So, THAT IS IT! Until Intel actually shows us something, don't ever talk about how the "real" P4 core design is meant to be for the 130 nm technology and how Intel had to take out tons of goodies in order to fabricate P4 of reasonable die size using the 180 nm technology...

**Spin all you want, but we the paying consumers will have the final word**
 

AmdMELTDOWN

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the NW is a sweet little cpu, fast, cool and quite.

<A HREF="http://www.intel.com/design/Pentium4/prodbref/index.htm?iid=ipp_dlc_procp4p+prod_brief&" target="_new">P4 sweetness</A>

"<b>AMD/VIA!</b>...you are <i>still</i> the weakest link, good bye!"
 

bhc

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Don't start it again, TROLL. Shoo!

**Spin all you want, but we the paying consumers will have the final word**
 

ufo_warviper

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I'll tell you what I know, but I am kinda new to studying different CPU core and Motherboard Chipset. I'll develop this playing on history the best I can:

The origninal Pentium was built on the P5 architecture. The Pentium Pro was released in 1995, based on Intel's new P6 architecture. The P6 architecture was supposed to deliver superior performance, and the ability for Intel to ramp up the clock speeds. Pentium Pro did have superior 32 Bit performance, but its 16-bit performanced made Pentium Pro appear to be a joke. BTW, Pentium Pro was designed for servers or something like that. However, with the release of the Pentium II/LX Chipset, the potential of the P6 architecture proved to be shiny. In fact, the P6 architecture has been Intel's vessel for more than 6 yrs until last week, when the Northwood was released! This means that (Pentium Socket 7 PPro), Pentium II (Klamath core), Pentium 3 (Katmai Core), Pentium3 (Coppermine Core), Pentium 3 (Tulatan Core), and Pentium4 (Williamette Core) were all based upon the P6 architecture!

Back a while 2 1/2 years ago, AMD released the Slot A Athlon CPU, which crushed the the 1st core Pentium3 (Katmai) to peices. During this time, Intel had already began its work on Pentium4(Williamette), and even had 2 more sweet Pentium 3 cores under development. Intel racked their brains to rush CuMine, Tully, & Willy before AMD did too many of their own core updates. Coppermine was released & perfomed only 5% or 10% better than SLot A Athlons, but was enough for AMD to gripe about. I think by mid 2000, AMD released Athlon Thunderbird with its new (200MHz or 266MHz?) FSB. This put AMD finally back into the lead. In November 2000, P4 was released but Intel had such a downturn, I belieive the Pentium4 either looked like a joke, was recalled, or something horribly wrong. Darn, I really forget! (Is this right or is the Pentium3 1.13GHz that was recalled?) The reason for this is because Intel had to drop out alot of stuff while developing the Pentium4, like the 512KB Cache, and a whole load of other stuff. According to many, Northwood Is what what Intel meant for the Pentium4 to be originally. When was Tully injected in the battle? I do not know. In early Fall 2001, AMD released the ATHlon XP, as we all know. All Athlon XP's had a better Price/peformance compared to Intel's fastet P4 models CPUs; the Athlon XP 1500+ had an ABSOLUTELY AWESOME price/perfomance ratio for any of the Athlon SOcketA/Pentium4 bunch; and the Athlon XP 1800+, and later 1900+ were the top performers in most benchmarks.

A look into the future: Intel motherboards with 533MHz FSB should be available in a few months. AMD's .13 micron Thoroughbred should be released in a few months as well. And if Intel doesn't do something fast with (Itanium?), Hammer will rip apart Intel's fastest products for sure.

Who do I hope wins? Both AMD & Intel. Fans of both companies can get CPUs from their favorite manufacturer at lower prices ever than before. Just becuase I prefer AMD CPU's over Intel's Price/Performance ration, doesn't mean I am up in arms against Intel fans. Intel has their strong points as well, and if it wern't for both companies being matched competitors, Brand new CPUs would still cost around $800

My OS features preemptive multitasking, a fully interactive command line, & support for 640K of RAM!
 

ufo_warviper

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I hoped this helped some. If I made mistakes in this thread let me know because I am trying to learn too!

My OS features preemptive multitasking, a fully interactive command line, & support for 640K of RAM!
 
G

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I really doubt there is such a thing as a "real P4" design. Sure, during the design phase, decissions had to be made, and comprises made. Thats with EVERY design, not even only cpu designs. So yes, you can be pretty confident there have been engineers promoting whatever enhancements to the core as we now know it (probably better FPU, larger L1 cache, etc..). I have even read somewhere that the project manager for P4 design had insisted on adding 64 bit extentions (much like hammer), but was refuted by senior management.

Regardless, the P4 as we know it today, is the P4 that was meant to be. After all the decissions and compromises had been made. The story wont be any different for the Athlon, P3, .. or any other cpu I suppose. And with each core revision, they'll probably look at the at the pile of ideas that did not make it initially, to see which ones could be added. Like SSE and prefetch for the AXP..

= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my wife. =
 
G

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Intel's latest 'Northwood' Pentium 4 is manufactured using a 0.13-micron process, features 512KB of Level 2 cache and boosts the clock speed to 2,200MHz (2.2GHz). But how does Intel's new flagship processor compare to AMD's fastest desktop CPU, the Athlon XP/2000+, which has a clock speed of 1,667MHz (1.67GHz)?

The New Year has hardly begun, and already the latest battle in the 'processor wars' is upon us. Intel's new Northwood chip is a Pentium 4 with 512KB of Level 2 cache (up from 256KB). Fabricated using a 0.13 micron process, it has a die size of 148 square millimetres -- despite the extra transistors from the larger cache, this is smaller than the chip's 0.18 micron 'Willamette' predecessor, which occupies 218 square millimetres. In addition, the pathways between the 54 million transistors in the Northwood Pentium 4 are now made of copper. Intel intends to take advantage of the lower resistance of copper compared with aluminium to increase the Pentium 4's clock speed to nearly 3GHz this year. For now, the top model runs at 2.2GHz.

The question is whether the higher clock speed and the larger Level 2 cache of the 2.2GHz Pentium 4 are sufficient to outpace AMD's Athlon XP/2000+, which was launched at the same time.


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If it ain't broke, Don't fix it. :wink:
 
My opinion is that there is no such thing as a "full fledge design" no matter what your trying to build. There always something due to cost to develope it, technology at the present time, and/or time it takes to develope it.

I bet within 2 years you'll be seeing another intel chip and another socket to go with it. Happens with every intel release it seems like.

What should be said is the architecture itself. The whole sceme around the p4 is that mhz and mislead people and buy there products because it's "Faster". You have to play the ethics card with this.

Besides that the architecture by all cpu companies is just amazing. NEC developed a cpu for pda devices and it's pretty cool for pda devices. 64bit cpu on a pda, i mean laptops and current desktops don't even use a 64bit cpu.

AMD amazes me the most. How they were able to optimize the chip to run cooler and stil implement sse with out a die shrink. Intel wishes they can do that.

but ok thats my .5 cent worth of info.

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74merc

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Wow, I agree with just about everything you said...
AMD amazes me the most. How they were able to optimize the chip to run cooler and stil implement sse with out a die shrink. Intel wishes they can do that.
this isn't a big deal, you didn't read up on it much. AMD was using a cheaper grade of transistors, they simply went up a notch in quality, runs cooler. nuff said.
from what I hear, SSE didn't take much at all to add, it just had to have some microcode updated or something, SSE, MMX and 3Dnow are all the same thing, just different revisions and particulars.

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FatBurger

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Besides that the architecture by all cpu companies is just amazing. NEC developed a cpu for pda devices and it's pretty cool for pda devices. 64bit cpu on a pda, i mean laptops and current desktops don't even use a 64bit cpu.

The G4 is a 128-bit CPU, and the new Imac STILL sucks :lol: .

Anyhow, I don't think the fabrication of a 64-bit CPU is really the hard part, it's the implementation. Designing a system from scratch (like a PDA) would make it easier to use 64-bit CPUs. Implementing them in something that has gradually scaled over the past 10 years (computers) is a bit more tricky.

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Matisaro

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AMD was using a cheaper grade of transistors, they simply went up a notch in quality, runs cooler. nuff said.


LoL, this is why intel accused amd of using .13 micron transistors months ago, because of their shoddy quality?


Dresden is one of the best fabs in the world, their gate widths are AMAZING, especially cinsidering they are still running the .18 micron process. All the palomino core design did was adjust the tbird layout and add some parts for sse(which required additional transistors If I recall correctly). The relayout distributed the work among the transistors differently resulting in a cooler running cpu.

The transistor grade was the same, as the palomino and tbird were both fabbed in the same fab on the same process.


SSE didn't take much at all to add, it just had to have some microcode updated or something, SSE, MMX and 3Dnow are all the same thing, just different revisions and particulars.

Bringing sse into a chip requires additional transistors, you cannot simply program sse functionality into a cpu with a microcode update.

"The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark"
No Overclock+stock hsf=GOOD!
 
ummm i didn't read that. I read they re-did the tracings.
Maybe they did "upgrade" the transisters.

as for sse, where do you think the room comes from? they have mmx, mmx+, 3dnow, 3d now enhanced or something like that. And then added 52 more instructions of sse. 74 i think is what intel has. there isn't a lot of room there. They redid the tracings and found more room.

someone also mentioned on this bored that amd was using some .13micron implementation but it's .18.. or something like that.


sse, mmx, and 3dnow are not the samething. The instructions are different. obviously you never coded in assembler before.


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Matisaro

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someone also mentioned on this bored that amd was using some .13micron implementation but it's .18.. or something like that.


That was me, The only thing that was .13 class in the palomino were the gate lengths, while intel meant their comments as attacks, all it has shown is the superior quality of amds fabbing process.

"The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark"
No Overclock+stock hsf=GOOD!
 
well it's mac? they even look like they suck. Did you see the new imac? i guess the lcd moves or something. ya i'm gonna go out and spend 1500 on a imac where there is hardly any software support and OS X, which i hear is a disaster, because the lcd moves back and forth and left to right. Whoopy! it was on the daily show. The guy practicaly made love to the new imac on stage. it was gross.

well i looked up intels strongARM and thats only a 32bit cpu for pda's. And the cpu in the casio BE-300 is a 64bit cpu. Thats from NEC. must be the first of it's kind because intel uses only a 32bit. Who else out there makes cpu's for pda's? not that it matters any. just find it cool.

but ya desktop transitions i agree does take a longer time period. Simply because it's widely more popular then a pda. obviously.

<A HREF="http://www.anandtech.com/mysystemrig.html?id=9933" target="_new"> My Rig </A>
 
ahhh yes thank you ... if you can be so kind in shareing the article where you read that i wouldn't mind reading up on it myself.

thanks!

<A HREF="http://www.anandtech.com/mysystemrig.html?id=9933" target="_new"> My Rig </A>
 

FatBurger

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The new iMac would be awesome if it wasn't way, way overpriced...and a Mac. Heh, if it was completely different, it would rule.

BTW, the P3 has 70 SSE instructions, the Xp has 52.

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AmdMELTDOWN

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>Don't start it again, TROLL. Shoo!

well if my opinion and a link constitutes a troll then may I suggest you stop posting anti-NW troll posts on this board.

Amdfans are not above the law when it comes to trolling.

"<b>AMD/VIA!</b>...you are <i>still</i> the weakest link, good bye!"
 

74merc

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I wasn't saying that AMD used shoddy transistors, but I read the transitor quality was upgraded, I was either misinformed or I misunderstood.
Oops.
xxxdudexxx
nope, haven't done much programming, but as they are all SIMD, it seems there would be overlap, I've read that as well.

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bhc

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Meltdown -- I used to use Intel CPU exclusively, but my last three PCs were using AMD chips. However, if Intel can give me the best value, I'll switch back tomorrow. I don't get ensnared by any brand name, but I do root for AMD to be at least competitive so we can enjoy good prices.

You, on the other hand, are a proven troll. Read others' response in this thread and maybe you can learn something. Or just go back under the bridge … shoo!

**Spin all you want, but we the paying consumers will have the final word**
 

MadCat

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"... BTW, the P3 has 70 SSE instructions, the Xp has 52. ..."

The Athlon 4s have the complete set of SSE instructions: <A HREF="http://www6.tomshardware.com/cpu/01q2/010514/palomino-04.html" target="_new">http://www6.tomshardware.com/cpu/01q2/010514/palomino-04.html</A>

18 of the 'Enhanced 3DNow!-instructions are identical to Intel's SSE-stuff for a long time. Now AMD added the remaining 52 instructions as well as the status bit that is probed by software that wants to know if the system processor supports SSE. This means that Athlon 4 basically 'understands' all SSE-code and is therefore able to take advantage of software that was SSE-optimized.
18 + 52 = 70
 

FatBurger

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<A HREF="http://www.amd.com/us-en/Processors/ProductInformation/0,,30_118_756_3734^3738,00.html" target="_new">AMD's website</A>

3DNow!™ Professional technology for leading-edge 3D operation

21 original 3DNow!™ instructions—the first technology enabling superscalar SIMD

19 additional instructions to enable improved integer math calculations for speech or video encoding and improved data movement for Internet plug-ins and other streaming applications

5 DSP instructions to improve soft modem, soft ADSL, Dolby Digital surround sound, and MP3 applications

<b>52 SSE instructions with SIMD integer and floating point additions offer excellent compatibility with Intel’s SSE technology</b>

Looks like Tom was wrong. Of course, that article was written in May, so no big deal.

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MadCat

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Look at Table 1 subtitled "AMD Processor support of SIMD instruction extensions to the x86 instruction set architecture" from this AMD white paper document: <A HREF="http://www.amd.com/us-en/assets/content_type/white_papers_and_tech_docs/athlon4wp.pdf" target="_new">http://www.amd.com/us-en/assets/content_type/white_papers_and_tech_docs/athlon4wp.pdf</A>

Extracted part of the table (Sorry, I don't know how to cut-n-paste from a PDF document):
<pre>... | AMD Athlon™ Processor | New AMD Athlon™ Processor
...
... | |
... | 3DNow! technology plus 19 | Enhanced 3DNow! technology
... | MMX™ extensions | plus 52 SSE extensions
... | <b>(part of SSE)</b> plus five | <b>(completing SSE support)</b>
... | DSP/communications extensions |
</pre><p>19 + 52 = 71