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Ohh - THGC actually has a moderator

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January 19, 2002 7:09:02 PM

So the THGC moderator suddenly woke up and decided to remove my thred: "Taynalator SUCKY!!!"

I can't blame them for doing that, because the headline of my thred looked like a flame. The actual content however was no such thing. I'm just tired of headlines like "P4 sucks", "AMD Athlon XP sucks" and so on. Normally I don't bother, because it is evident that whoever is posting is doing so in order to start a flame war. With Taylanator however, I felt that he was being serios about his claims, as if he actually believed in the nonsense he spewed. Also I wanted to let him know that headlines like his "P4 3010MHZ SUCKY!!!" is annoying and stupid.

OK, but I still want my message through to get through to him, so here is a repost of my original posting:


@Taynalator:
As it is simply too overwhelming to respond to every little cry you’ve made over the last couple of days, I think I’ll just make some general comments and then take it from here. To be fair, I have to admit that it seems you are becoming more reasonable as time goes by. You have probably discovered that your bullish/stupid style won’t do you any good in making arguments. Nonetheless I still feel a need to set things straight.

1.The test was made primarily to show the overclockability of the Northwood. After the die-shrink it makes sense to examine its overclocking capabilities.

2.The other CPU’s listed in the benchmarks have just been included as a reference. They’ve not been made especially for this article but were all made some time ago. Do not regard this as an insult towards AMD (and you). It’s very time-consuming to do these kinds of tests, so for now the THG people have chosen to focus on the new 0.13 micron CPU offering from Intel. Probably later we will see something similar done for the AMD Athlon/Throughbred.

3.As I have already said some time ago, I’ve noticed that it seems to be very important for some test-sites to be quickly out with their reviews. That’s somewhat understandable, and the penalty seems to be bad editing at times. That’s not good if the article is trying to explain technically difficult stuff, but when it comes to benchmarks, it really doesn’t matter that much. If you use a little common sense you can draw your own conclusions in each benchmark. As long as they don’t fiddle with the results, I’m mostly happy.

4.There IS a problem with the German to English translation, but it is nothing major. I have visited the German site and found that the translation is actually adequate (being a Dane, I also “master” the German language), but the German site had two comments that are left out in the English translation. In the SiSoft Sandra benchmark the following comment can be found on the German site:

<i>”Der Pentium 4/3000 liegt bei allen Benchmarks vorn. Dennoch sind die Ergebnisse nur unter Vorbehalt zu verwenden. ”</i>

That could have been said a bit more precisely, but they are effectively saying that the synthetic memory benchmark is not reflecting the actual performance of a system. The translator, being a clever person, couldn’t match the results with the comment and probably simply left it out. Instead the comment should have been something like this: <i> The overclocked PC2100 DDR RAM on the P4/3000A system is not able to match the bandwidth of a standard RDRAM based system.</i>

The other comment can be found in the Cinema 4D bench:

<i>”Beim 3D-Rendering unter Cinema 4D zeigt sich, dass AMD und Intel sich in der Führungsposition abwechseln.”</i>

At best, this is a totally irrelevant comment, which the translator wisely left out. The P4/3000A is taking the lead in both tests with a significant margin. What the editor is maybe trying to say is that the blue(P4) and green(Athlon XP) bars interchange in the Shading (Cinema 4D) benchmark. Totally irrelevant.

5.As far as judging the performance of the P4 as “PITIFULL”, I think you are completely wrong. The P4/3000A displays an almost linear performance/clockspeed relationship in the SAME benchmarks as the AMD Athlon XP. In the following table, I’ve listed what a 25% increase in clockspeed does for the Athlon XP (1333MHz/XP1500+ to 1660MHz/XP2000+) and what a 50% increase in clockspeed does for the P4 (P4/2000A to P4/3000A).

Benchmark:..............................Athlon XP...........P4
-------------------------------------------------------
<b>Absolute clock increase.............25.0%..........50.0%</b>
SiSoft CPU (Dhrystone):...............22.0%...........49.9%
SiSoft CPU (Whetstone):..............26.2%...........49.7%
SiSoft Multimedia (Integer):..........25.7%...........49.9%
SiSoft Multimedia (Floating-Point):.25.6%...........49.7%
-------------------------------------------------------
Lame MP3:.................................26.5%...........48.4%
Lightwave 7b:............................24.9%...........48.0%

In ALL other tests NONE of the two systems shows a linear relationship between performance and clockrate. Notice that the highly SSE/SSE2 optimized Lightwave 7b and Lame MP3 both lives by the clock.

In other applications both CPU’s are hold back by various bottlenecks in the their systems. The 512kb 2'nd level cache introduced in Northwood A and the upcoming Northwood B with 533MHz system bus (to be introduced later this spring) are both attempts to reduce the effects of the current external memory bottleneck.

7.Taynalator, if one reads all your posts in “P4 3010MHZ SUCKY!!!” thread, it becomes evident that you are nothing but a single-minded AMD zealot with totally unrealistic expectations in general system performance as the clockspeed goes up. Only in special applications where most of the job can be done within the CPU itself you will get a linear increase in performance as the clockspeed goes up. (Lame MP3 and Lightwave 7b are examples of this thanks to SSE/SSE2).

I actually don’t care if the P4 has to run at 50GHz in order to level with the Athlon XP. Likewise, I don’t care that AMD needs 3 FPU units and SSE to obtain a combined FPU performance that is still lower than what Intel can obtain with 1 FPU unit and SSE2. It’s the outcome that’s important. Look at the CPU as a black box, offering you performance. Why do you care about what’s inside? It doesn’t matter at all, but apparently you need something to point fingers at now, where your horse is struggling to catch up. What I care about is price, performance, stability and quality. For now, I think the P4/1800A or the P4/2000A together with a carefully selected motherboard is what fits the bill in all respects.

Face it; the once so embarrassing P4 has finally surpassed your precious little AMD counterpart. At least for a while you’ll have to live with it.


<i>/Copenhagen</i>

<b><i>Seagate Barracuda IV.
Bad performance in RAID setups!
</i></b>

More about : ohh thgc moderator

January 19, 2002 7:14:19 PM

Bizarre! Prettymuch everyone flames everyone here. Sometimes it gets downright defamatory, still goes without censorship. Maybe there were some problems with the servers, or did the message say something like: "removed by fredi"?


<font color=red><i>I refugee from Guatanamo Bay,
dance around the border like I'm Cassius Clay
</i></font color=red>
January 19, 2002 7:22:50 PM

Good point! It's just dumb how some people blindly support Intel or AMD. Obviously AMD can't always be in the lead. The same thing happened when Intel released the 2GHz P4 when AMD only had a 1.4GHz Athlon. Again, It can only be said that AMD and Intel have been fighting over the lead for nearly 3 years now. AMD won some battles, Intel won some battles but the war is far from over.

AMD technology + Intel technology = Intel/AMD Pentathlon IV; the <b>ULTIMATE</b> PC processor <P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by AMD_Man on 01/19/02 04:26 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
Related resources
January 19, 2002 8:03:02 PM

It looks like the thread has been moved to the "Other" forum by the moderator.


<i>/Copenhagen</i>

<b><i>Seagate Barracuda IV.
Bad performance in RAID setups!
</i></b>
January 19, 2002 10:09:21 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>Svar på:</font><hr><p>Cheat? Yes, by making Mhz higher!
There's no point, people will know the truth!<p><hr></blockquote><p>I don't care about MHz; You shouldn't either. Just look at the bottom line, i.e the resulting performance.


<blockquote><font size=1>Svar på:</font><hr><p>For over a year now, I've been monitoring this forum!
(Look at my title and respect me please)<p><hr></blockquote><p>I'm really impressed over that title. :smile: Wow !





<i>/Copenhagen</i>

<b><i>Seagate Barracuda IV.
Bad performance in RAID setups!
</i></b>
January 19, 2002 10:24:28 PM

maybe a fixed decoder, maybe a larger trace-cache, maybe larger L1... who know... i dont think we should really care when buying a system... though good for the mind.
as long as Intel can ramp up those clock speeds to match AMDs latest preformers...
January 19, 2002 10:31:29 PM

I have the same feeling, and basically I don't either like the P4 MHz waste. None of us like the idea of being ineffective and from a MHz perspective the P4 is exactly that. But as long as Intel seems to able to compensate for this with effective cooling systems, CPU throttling and die-shrinks and features like SSE2, I can live with it.

When you are about to buy a new computer, you have to go for what's performing best right now and in the near future, because the specific CPU sample you end up buying won't change, ever.


<i>/Copenhagen</i>

<b><i>Seagate Barracuda IV.
Bad performance in RAID setups!
</i></b>
January 19, 2002 10:37:11 PM

Quote:
What I am hoping for is Intel's speed combine with AMD's architechture. Now that's what I called a real CPU!


Sure, and I'm just hoping for a million qbit quantum computer. Now that's what I called a real CPU!

"Ignorance is bliss, but I tend to get screwed over."
January 19, 2002 10:53:25 PM

Haha! I want a Pentathlon too (read my sig)!!!

AMD technology + Intel technology = Intel/AMD Pentathlon IV; the <b>ULTIMATE</b> PC processor
January 20, 2002 12:23:33 AM

yeah, when i first saw that i did a double take, just because "Penta" is a prefix for 5... which looked funny with a IV...
in all honesty, i hope they never "merge", competition is good... who would be left?

:wink: Engineering is the science of making life simple, by making it more complicated.
January 20, 2002 5:13:16 AM

Well you know, you guys got me this time. Those were some very well spoken words. Although the context of them made me think that you were getting a little bit emotional about what I had to say. And all the info it took to make you feel satisfied with beating me just proved my other point perfectly. 90% of the people don't know all those details and the THG didn't show it to them, making the validity of the entire article completely bogus. Why would they show an article that presents a 3ghz athlon that performs relatively poor compared to other CPUS and not mention its performance at all, did they expect that everyone knew about everything you covered in the Novel you wrote me? I think not. Making the article just plain pointless. Oh and it was to show that it could he done? Anything can be done. Sure, pay 500 dollars for a cooling system and you can get a whole 20fps more. The whole thing is dumb.
But I looked again on madonion and I can't find any past 2200mhz on madonion, the mhz must have been fake like what’s his face said. My bad, but still, it doesn't change the fact that if they were to go that fast they would rape the P4, but they don't so I guess technically the P4's are faster, but only because of intels aggressive marketing and releasing dates being actually moved forward. I mean you have to admit, intel is trying their hardest to beat AMD and they are doing it with not that much of a margin, while AMD is taking easy relying on their superior architecture to save them, it does until Intel has 533mhz lead, and it starts to become unimportant on the technology when dealing with brute force of mhz power. Whelp, it’s been fun talking to ya. What I'm really doing here is questioning the Validity of the entire article that confuses 90% of the computer people that get on here, especially to find out that you have to pay a ton extra for the cooling system and all that just to get 20fps more, the whole article is useless and kind makes me want to believe that the THG is turning their heads toward Intel and I don't like that, sorry, I just don't, amd is the one with the better chip, just not as fast right now. I am just a little upset with how they say little remarks that just bug me, they almost sound like right wing Intel lovers sometimes. But I wont complain anymore, its not like I can really change anything but I am hoping that maybe they will see my thread and realize that they were a little irrational in the manner in which they presented the article, or even the article as a whole. Whelp, its been fun, I appreciate everyone who has participated in my threads, even though its still about 50/50 but something’s people just can't agree on things.
January 20, 2002 5:16:04 AM

oh and thers no need for this:

"7.Taynalator, if one reads all your posts in “P4 3010MHZ SUCKY!!!” thread, it becomes evident that you are nothing but a single-minded AMD zealot with totally unrealistic expectations in general system performance as the clockspeed goes up"

its just not professional. Please, no name calling, I have kids for that
January 20, 2002 5:16:31 AM

Are you going to repost this in every thread on the forum? This one had a couple new sentences added to the beginning, but no new real content. See my reply in the 'Taylanator is RIGHT!' thread.

-Raystonn


= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my employer. =
January 20, 2002 5:19:46 AM

Quote:
its just not professional. Please, no name calling, I have kids for that

Does this ring a bell? It is from the 'P4 3010MHZ SUCKY!!!' thread:
Quote:
Hey I have an idea, your STUPID!! I know that moron

Hmmm, just in case it does not ring a bell... That was you.

-Raystonn


= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my employer. =
a b à CPUs
January 20, 2002 5:23:58 AM

All I want is a NEW version of the BX that supports DDR SDRAM/AGP4x and a reworked PIII with a DDR bus that does 3GHz! Looks like the closest I'll get is the Thoroughbred on an SiS 745!

What's the frequency, Kenneth?
January 20, 2002 5:24:08 AM

yeah, so? I just want to end this. Its gotton into a AMD VS. Inel battle and that realy wasn't my point
January 20, 2002 5:26:05 AM

your right but then you playing a little game my kids play too and its called: If taylanator can do it so can I.
January 20, 2002 5:27:53 AM

Then what was your point? You posted information that was very clearly based more on yoru own opinion than any facts. You should have expected a flurry of replies from those who disagreed with you. If you want to drop the argument, that is fine.

-Raystonn


= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my employer. =
January 20, 2002 5:31:56 AM

my point is that the article proved to be useless.
January 20, 2002 5:33:25 AM

Quote:
your right but then you playing a little game my kids play too and its called: If taylanator can do it so can I.

First off, I did not call you anything. Get the names straight. That was someone else. Second, you can hardly expect to be taken seriously when you act in such a hypocritical fashion. Do not expect others to play by rules that you refuse to acknowledge yourself.

-Raystonn


= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my employer. =
January 20, 2002 5:34:20 AM

Quote:
my point is that the article proved to be useless.

And that is merely your opinion.

-Raystonn


= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my employer. =
January 20, 2002 6:01:28 AM

yes but he failed at even doing that with the results of those benchmarks, and it wasn't tom either, I like tom more, it was the three other guys.
January 20, 2002 6:05:07 AM

oh and I acknowledge them now, and I do admit I was geting a little bit inmature if you will, but I am just a little dissapointed in this whole thing. but I'm trying to stop, but I keep getting these replies by these people, oh man they are so annoying.
January 20, 2002 8:45:48 AM

your kids call you taylanator?

[insert philosophical statement here]
January 20, 2002 9:25:03 AM

~ in all honesty, i hope they never "merge", competition is good... who would be left?~

SPARC, PowerPC, Transmeta, VIA, ARM, etc

<font color=blue> Smoke me a Chip'er ... I'll be back in the Morgan </font color=blue> :eek: 
January 20, 2002 9:31:30 AM

Quote:
but I'm trying to stop, but I keep getting these replies by these people, oh man they are so annoying.


I know how you feel, we get many replies from you, and they sure as hell are annoying!

<i>Hi I am from Canada, I don't use amd cause they melt my igloo eh.</i>
January 20, 2002 11:10:11 AM

Man, just give up. How can you expect performance to increase at a constant rate for each MHz jump? Obviously as the processor speeds up there are other bottlenecks that are more significant in the system. Your reasoning is flawed and I believe everyone here agrees with me.

AMD technology + Intel technology = Intel/AMD Pentathlon IV; the <b>ULTIMATE</b> PC processor
January 20, 2002 1:34:57 PM

Great post, Copenhagen. I think that sums it all up.
Everybody friends again?

I enjoyed the article, but I agree with Taylanator that some things were a bit confusing. I would have liked to see all pentium systems running with the same memory subsystem. That would isolate the CPU and show how different applications will scale during the next 12 months.
For example: Will Quake3 continue to scale with 7fps/100MHz as the RDRAM pentium systems suggests, or will the gains decrease as the 3000A DDR system suggests?
But as someone said: this wasn't primarily a benchmark review.

And you could probably figure it out by combining the benches of this OC:ed pentium, the i845D-review, the Nothwood review and doing some math.
Actually, I think I'm gonna do just that.
!