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Martial Bard?

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Anonymous
May 25, 2005 4:29:28 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

So I'm playing a Bard currently and I was looking for any Prestige
CLasses or whatever that would make him a better 'martial' bard so to
speak. I suppose the easiest route would just be to do alternating
levels with Fighter or something, but I was just curious if there was
anything anyone was aware of for like a swashbuckler type bard. I want
him to be effective with rapier, and do lots of tumbling type combat
maneuvers. Like I said, I guess I can just keep alternating levels
w/Fighter but just wonder if there are other options.

Thoughts?

More about : martial bard

Anonymous
May 25, 2005 9:04:54 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

webhed wrote:
> So I'm playing a Bard currently and I was looking for any Prestige
> CLasses or whatever that would make him a better 'martial' bard so to
> speak. I suppose the easiest route would just be to do alternating
> levels with Fighter or something, but I was just curious if there was
> anything anyone was aware of for like a swashbuckler type bard. I want
> him to be effective with rapier, and do lots of tumbling type combat
> maneuvers. Like I said, I guess I can just keep alternating levels
> w/Fighter but just wonder if there are other options.

In general, you might want to consider picking up a copy of the Hero's Guide
for Star Wars D20.

There's a concept in there (which really should be generalized to all D20)
known as Archetypes. This allows for the modification of dual class
situation, like you're describing, to better meld together by, optionally,
replacing certain abilities throughout the progression.

I'd recommend trying to thumb through it in the bookstore and see if it's
interesting to you.

--
Reginald Blue
"I have always wished that my computer would be as easy to use as my
telephone. My wish has come true. I no longer know how to use my
telephone."
- Bjarne Stroustrup (originator of C++) [quoted at the 2003
International Conference on Intelligent User Interfaces]
Anonymous
May 26, 2005 12:16:55 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

webhed <jreyst@gmail.com> wrote:
>So I'm playing a Bard currently and I was looking for any Prestige
>CLasses or whatever that would make him a better 'martial' bard so to
>speak.

I think the Dead Pirate PrC was designed exactly for this...

Donald
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Anonymous
May 26, 2005 2:11:56 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Donald Tsang wrote:
> webhed <jreyst@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>So I'm playing a Bard currently and I was looking for any Prestige
>>CLasses or whatever that would make him a better 'martial' bard so to
>>speak.
>
>
> I think the Dead Pirate PrC was designed exactly for this...
>
> Donald

"Dead Pirate?" Is that the PrC on the Flying Dutchman?

;-)
Anonymous
May 26, 2005 3:32:20 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Reginald Blue wrote:
> webhed wrote:
>
>>So I'm playing a Bard currently and I was looking for any Prestige
>>CLasses or whatever that would make him a better 'martial' bard so to
>>speak. I suppose the easiest route would just be to do alternating
>>levels with Fighter or something, but I was just curious if there was
>>anything anyone was aware of for like a swashbuckler type bard. I want
>>him to be effective with rapier, and do lots of tumbling type combat
>>maneuvers. Like I said, I guess I can just keep alternating levels
>>w/Fighter but just wonder if there are other options.
>
>
> In general, you might want to consider picking up a copy of the Hero's Guide
> for Star Wars D20.
>
> There's a concept in there (which really should be generalized to all D20)
> known as Archetypes. This allows for the modification of dual class
> situation, like you're describing, to better meld together by, optionally,
> replacing certain abilities throughout the progression.

The Quintessential Bard II has a similer section, only it is designed
for D&D bards.
Anonymous
May 26, 2005 6:29:17 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

jreyst@gmail.com wrote:

> So I'm playing a Bard currently and I was looking for any Prestige
> CLasses or whatever that would make him a better 'martial' bard so to
> speak. I suppose the easiest route would just be to do alternating
> levels with Fighter or something, but I was just curious if there was
> anything anyone was aware of for like a swashbuckler type bard. I want
> him to be effective with rapier, and do lots of tumbling type combat
> maneuvers. Like I said, I guess I can just keep alternating levels
> w/Fighter but just wonder if there are other options.
>
> Thoughts?

Duelist is your basic core books swashbuckler, but I don't really think
it has much going for it, especially for a bard since it doesn't really
synergize with any of your abilities.

Warchanter (CW) is a more martial, less spellcaster-y bard, which might
be close to what you're looking for.

A couple of rogue levels will give you some sneak attack, increasing
your damage output, and all the swashbuckler skills are still there.

Assassin levels ditto, and you also get some neat spells. You have to be
Evil, though.

Thief-acrobat (CAdv) is very mobility focused and quite nice, IMO, but
you'll have to get Evasion first.

I second the suggestion to check out the dread pirate (CAdv) if it the
whole pirate schtick fits your concept or if you can adjust the PrC
flavour with your DM.

But I think the best swashbuckler bard is a pure bard, with the right
spells and feats.

Snowflake Wardance (Frostburn) allows you to add Cha to attack with
slashing weapons (so no rapier...). Song of the Heart (Eberron) improves
your inspire courage and other bardic music, making everyone a better
fighter. Arcane Strike lets you convert spell slots to attack/damage
bonuses, which both gives you more melee power and lets you select more
non-combat spells, since you don't have to worry about slots sitting
unused.

Bladeweave (CAdv) is, for me, the quintessential bardic combat spell:
you twirl your sword in a hypnotic pattern, possibly distracting your
opponent (daze as a weapon touch attack). Whirling blade (CA) is also
flashy and cool. Inspirational boost isn't flashy at all, but anything
that improves inspire courage is great. Swift expeditious retreat (CAdv)
helps with mobility and tumbling. Swift fly (CAdv) lets you pull off
what amounts to wuxia tricks, effectively allowing you to leap 60 ft.
standing leaps.

If you're taking ranks in use magic device, at high levels you might
consider investing in a divine power wand. It's expensive, but it can
make for some truly impressive attack bonuses on a bard, with all this
other stuff.

A sword of subtlety is another nice piece of equipment: with UMD, you
can fake sneak attack, and with your swashbuckler mobility, you should
be able to flank fairly often.


--
Jasin Zujovic
jzujovic@inet.hr
Anonymous
May 26, 2005 6:29:18 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Jasin Zujovic <jzujovic@inet.hr> wrote:
>A sword of subtlety is another nice piece of equipment: with UMD, you
>can fake sneak attack, and with your swashbuckler mobility, you should
>be able to flank fairly often.

Wow. Just... wow.

Not that a character who has enough ranks in UMD to emulate a class
feature (DC 20) consistently should lack for a +4 weapon in the
first place... but still. What a cool idea.


I'd probably rather dip a level in Rogue or Scout, though.

Donald
Anonymous
May 26, 2005 6:29:18 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

So I checked out the Dread Pirate... while its cool, my character is a
complete landlubber. An actor/playwrite bard who is composing a master
epic play during the days, and at night is living up the life of
adventure and fair damsels. Dread Pirate is all about ships and oceans
etc.

I checked out the War Chanter... again, cool, but a little TOO
martial... being all about killing stuff and all lol My guy is more
about disarming and tripping his opponent to demoralize him as opposed
to slaughtering him lol

I even looked at the Swashbuckler class... That actually seems the
closest if I hadn't already taken 2 levels of Bard and already have
Weapon Finesse. The other class abilities seem cool, and it gets Ftr
BAB and Hit Points, which is definitely cool. I guess I was picturing a
Swashbuckler having lower hit points than a fighter, not as straight up
tough I guess.

It looks like I'll just stick with alternating Bard/Fighter levels and
try to skill/feat him out to be what I want. I guess with the right
feats (Improved Trip, Disarm, Feint, etc) you could still do a decent
Swashbuckler type bard that way.

Thanks for the tips guys!
Anonymous
May 26, 2005 6:29:18 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Martial stoneroper bards

"Mmn-nnaarrrr-rrr-rrrrr"

(waves tentacles around, wielding mutiple scimitars)
Anonymous
May 26, 2005 5:17:21 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Peter Knutsen (usenet) wrote:
>
> Duellist?

I'm at work so I don't have my books available. Can someone give me a
brief synopsis of what the Duelist can do? It might be an option but I
seem to recall checking it out and discounting it for some reason...
Anonymous
May 26, 2005 6:07:33 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

webhed wrote:
> So I checked out the Dread Pirate... while its cool, my character is a
> complete landlubber. An actor/playwrite bard who is composing a master
> epic play during the days, and at night is living up the life of
> adventure and fair damsels. Dread Pirate is all about ships and oceans
> etc.

You could make it large lake based. Or river based.
--
"... respect, all good works are not done by only good folk ..."
--till next time, Jameson Stalanthas Yu -x- <<poetry.dolphins-cove.com>>
Anonymous
May 26, 2005 6:12:33 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

tsang@soda.csua.berkeley.edu wrote:

> >A sword of subtlety is another nice piece of equipment: with UMD, you
> >can fake sneak attack, and with your swashbuckler mobility, you should
> >be able to flank fairly often.
>
> Wow. Just... wow.
>
> Not that a character who has enough ranks in UMD to emulate a class
> feature (DC 20) consistently should lack for a +4 weapon in the
> first place... but still.

For a bard, I think it's easy to hit DC 20 long before you can really
afford weapons that good (either subtlety or +4): 9th level is enough
for +12 ranks, +4 Cha, +3 circlet of persuasion = +19.

> What a cool idea.

Thanks. This is the coolest use of UMD for me, being able to say "Oh, we
found a wildshaping sneak attacking holy avenger that requires bardic
music? Sure, I can use it." I was even planning to get a longsword of
subtlety with my cleric/loremaster of Tyr once he got enough UMD to be
semi-reliable with it (he died before he even got into loremaster, eh).
It's a shame there aren't more good class-restricted items in the DMG...

BTW, note that a sword of subtlety is more like a +5 weapon when sneak
attacking... +1 enhancement, +4 to attack/damage. That would cost 50000
gp, while the sword of subtlety is only 22000 gp.

Also, and I'm not sure how this is in other groups, in my group it's
been ruled that subtlety is effectively a 20000 gp fixed cost enhancment
(so the +1 sword in the DMG comes out at 22000). So for a cost similar
to a +5 weapon, you could have a +4 sword of subtlety, for +9 to
attack/damage when sneak attacking (or "sneak attacking").

> I'd probably rather dip a level in Rogue or Scout, though.

Perhaps, but there's just something about being able to use the sword
when you're not supposed to. :) 


--
Jasin Zujovic
jzujovic@inet.hr
Anonymous
May 26, 2005 6:12:41 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

jreyst@gmail.com wrote:

> So I checked out the Dread Pirate... while its cool, my character is a
> complete landlubber. An actor/playwrite bard who is composing a master
> epic play during the days, and at night is living up the life of
> adventure and fair damsels. Dread Pirate is all about ships and oceans
> etc.

It shouldn't be too hard to adapt the dread pirate into something land-
based, I think.

The important abilities are mostly mobility- and inspiration-based, so
they only need their names changed to make it into an urban
swashbuckler.

Then there's stuff like +level to profession (sailor), but that's mostly
flavour anyway, and it shouldn't be too hard to think of something
equivalent that fits the character better. +level to profession
(playwright), as your nightly exploits give you endless inspiration for
your plays...? :) 



--
Jasin Zujovic
jzujovic@inet.hr
Anonymous
May 26, 2005 9:53:18 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

webhed <jreyst@gmail.com> wrote:
>So I checked out the Dread Pirate... while its cool, my character is a
>complete landlubber. An actor/playwrite bard who is composing a master
>epic play during the days, and at night is living up the life of
>adventure and fair damsels. Dread Pirate is all about ships and oceans
>etc.

This is true.


>I even looked at the Swashbuckler class... That actually seems the
>closest if I hadn't already taken 2 levels of Bard and already have
>Weapon Finesse. The other class abilities seem cool, and it gets Ftr
>BAB and Hit Points, which is definitely cool. I guess I was picturing a
>Swashbuckler having lower hit points than a fighter, not as straight up
>tough I guess.

Why don't you ask your DM if you can choose a different feat? Or maybe
even rebuild the character given the "new" class? Explain to him that
Swashbuckler levels fit better, thematically, than Fighter or Ranger
levels...


Donald
Anonymous
May 26, 2005 10:11:29 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Jasin Zujovic <jzujovic@inet.hr> wrote:
>> >A sword of subtlety is another nice piece of equipment: with UMD, you
>> >can fake sneak attack, and with your swashbuckler mobility, you should
>> >be able to flank fairly often.
>>
>> Not that a character who has enough ranks in UMD to emulate a class
>> feature (DC 20) consistently should lack for a +4 weapon in the
>> first place... but still. [Wow.]
>
>For a bard, I think it's easy to hit DC 20 long before you can really
>afford weapons that good (either subtlety or +4): 9th level is enough
>for +12 ranks, +4 Cha, +3 circlet of persuasion = +19.

Yah, true. A +4 weapon is 33K or so; Sword of Subtlety is 22K or so.


>BTW, note that a sword of subtlety is more like a +5 weapon when sneak
>attacking... +1 enhancement, +4 to attack/damage. That would cost 50000
>gp, while the sword of subtlety is only 22000 gp.

True enough. But it only gives you that when "sneak attacking", so I
figured I'd prefer a +4 straight up. Wait... can UMD fool the SoS into
thinking you're sneak attacking on *every* attack?


>> I'd probably rather dip a level in Rogue or Scout, though.
>
>Perhaps, but there's just something about being able to use the sword
>when you're not supposed to. :) 

What would be the UMD DC to make a Sylvan Scimitar work all the time?
How about Burst enhancements? Can UMD make them believe you've critted?

Donald
Anonymous
May 27, 2005 1:32:13 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

webhed wrote:
> So I'm playing a Bard currently and I was looking for any Prestige
> CLasses or whatever that would make him a better 'martial' bard so to
> speak. I suppose the easiest route would just be to do alternating
> levels with Fighter or something, but I was just curious if there was
> anything anyone was aware of for like a swashbuckler type bard. I want
> him to be effective with rapier, and do lots of tumbling type combat
> maneuvers. Like I said, I guess I can just keep alternating levels
> w/Fighter but just wonder if there are other options.

Duellist?

--
Peter Knutsen
sagatafl.org
Anonymous
May 27, 2005 1:36:26 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Donald Tsang wrote:
> Jasin Zujovic <jzujovic@inet.hr> wrote:
>>BTW, note that a sword of subtlety is more like a +5 weapon when sneak
>>attacking... +1 enhancement, +4 to attack/damage. That would cost 50000
>>gp, while the sword of subtlety is only 22000 gp.
>
> True enough. But it only gives you that when "sneak attacking", so I
> figured I'd prefer a +4 straight up. Wait... can UMD fool the SoS into
> thinking you're sneak attacking on *every* attack?

I'd say no.

>>>I'd probably rather dip a level in Rogue or Scout, though.
>>
>>Perhaps, but there's just something about being able to use the sword
>>when you're not supposed to. :) 
>
> What would be the UMD DC to make a Sylvan Scimitar work all the time?
> How about Burst enhancements? Can UMD make them believe you've critted?

I'd say no here as well.

Neither of those suggestions are realistic.

--
Peter Knutsen
sagatafl.org
Anonymous
May 27, 2005 1:36:27 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Peter Knutsen (usenet) <peter@sagatafl.invalid> wrote:
>Donald Tsang wrote:
>> Jasin Zujovic <jzujovic@inet.hr> wrote:
>>>BTW, note that a sword of subtlety is more like a +5 weapon when sneak
>>>attacking... +1 enhancement, +4 to attack/damage. That would cost 50000
>>>gp, while the sword of subtlety is only 22000 gp.
>>
>> True enough. But it only gives you that when "sneak attacking", so I
>> figured I'd prefer a +4 straight up. Wait... can UMD fool the SoS into
>> thinking you're sneak attacking on *every* attack?
>
>I'd say no.

Truthfully, so would I. But it's certainly not clear how a SoS
"knows" that you're sneak-attacking.

You can sneak-attack things like constructs and undead, right?
They're just usually immune to the extra damage? (just like you can
crit them with "Burst" weapons)


>>>>I'd probably rather dip a level in Rogue or Scout, though.
>>>
>>>Perhaps, but there's just something about being able to use the sword
>>>when you're not supposed to. :) 
>>
>> What would be the UMD DC to make a Sylvan Scimitar work all the time?
>> How about Burst enhancements? Can UMD make them believe you've critted?
>
>I'd say no here as well.
>
>Neither of those suggestions are realistic.

I'm thinking that maybe, with Daylight and Endure Elements spells or
somesuch, the Sylvan Scimitar one might be doable. But, yeah, the
other use (and the "sneak" one, above) seem a little too "out there".
I'm curious what others think, though.

Donald
Anonymous
May 27, 2005 1:42:04 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"webhed" <jreyst@gmail.com> wrote in
news:1117049368.620944.297660@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com:

> So I'm playing a Bard currently and I was looking for any
> Prestige CLasses or whatever that would make him a better
> 'martial' bard so to speak.

As you've likely got good CHA, how about multiclassing to a class
which gets Turn Undead (e.g. cleric or paladin after a few levels)
and getting the Divine Power feat along with a better BAB?
Anonymous
May 27, 2005 4:18:10 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

~consul wrote:
> webhed wrote:
>
>> <snip> Dread Pirate is all about ships and ocean, etc.
>
> You could make it large lake based. Or river based.

The Dread Riverboat Pirate Roberts? Hmmm...


Arivne
Anonymous
May 27, 2005 4:56:05 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Behold! for "webhed" <jreyst@gmail.com> spake unto the multitude thus:

>I even looked at the Swashbuckler class... That actually seems the
>closest if I hadn't already taken 2 levels of Bard and already have
>Weapon Finesse. The other class abilities seem cool, and it gets Ftr
>BAB and Hit Points, which is definitely cool. I guess I was picturing a
>Swashbuckler having lower hit points than a fighter, not as straight up
>tough I guess.

Agree with your DM to swap the Finesse for something like Imp Disarm,
Imp Trip, Imp Feint, TWF, Dodge, Mobility or whatever as applicable.
Otherwise Swashbuckler is best because it uses Cha, which I imagine
you have plenty of.


--
Jim or Sarah Davies, but probably Jim

D&D and Star Fleet Battles stuff on http://www.aaargh.org
Anonymous
May 27, 2005 5:01:49 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

tsang@soda.csua.berkeley.edu wrote:

> >>>BTW, note that a sword of subtlety is more like a +5 weapon when sneak
> >>>attacking... +1 enhancement, +4 to attack/damage. That would cost 50000
> >>>gp, while the sword of subtlety is only 22000 gp.
> >>
> >> True enough. But it only gives you that when "sneak attacking", so I
> >> figured I'd prefer a +4 straight up. Wait... can UMD fool the SoS into
> >> thinking you're sneak attacking on *every* attack?
> >
> >I'd say no.
>
> Truthfully, so would I. But it's certainly not clear how a SoS
> "knows" that you're sneak-attacking.

Certainlty. But I'd say it just knows; magic, y'know.

> You can sneak-attack things like constructs and undead, right?
> They're just usually immune to the extra damage? (just like you can
> crit them with "Burst" weapons)

Interesting. Are you suggestion that a bard with a sword of subtlety (or
a rogue, for that matter) would get his +4/+4 attack/damage?

Perhaps that might be a good ruling, since it solves one logical problem
I've been having with swords of subtlety: say you attack a flat-footed
opponent with AC 20 and light fortification. You hit AC 16, 20 with the
+4 bonus. Fortification is rolled and comes up 1%, so no sneak attack.
But if no sneak attack, did you hit at all considering you only hit
because of your +4 bonus which only works when sneak attacking...?


--
Jasin Zujovic
jzujovic@inet.hr
Anonymous
May 27, 2005 5:01:50 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Jasin Zujovic <jzujovic@inet.hr> wrote:
>tsang@soda.csua.berkeley.edu wrote:
>> it's certainly not clear how a SoS "knows" that you're sneak-attacking.
>
>Certainlty. But I'd say it just knows; magic, y'know.

If it's "magic", then presumably UMD can trick it into thinking you're
doing it, at DC 20 or 25?


>> You can sneak-attack things like constructs and undead, right?
>> They're just usually immune to the extra damage? (just like you can
>> crit them with "Burst" weapons)
>
>Interesting. Are you suggestion that a bard with a sword of subtlety (or
>a rogue, for that matter) would get his +4/+4 attack/damage?

Of course.


>Perhaps that might be a good ruling, since it solves one logical problem
>I've been having with swords of subtlety: say you attack a flat-footed
>opponent with AC 20 and light fortification. You hit AC 16, 20 with the
>+4 bonus. Fortification is rolled and comes up 1%, so no sneak attack.
>But if no sneak attack, did you hit at all considering you only hit
>because of your +4 bonus which only works when sneak attacking...?

I think if you read the descriptions of "Fortification" and "Sword of
Subtlety", all will become clear...

"Fortification: This suit of armor or shield produces a magical
force that protects vital areas of the wearer more effectively.
When a critical hit or sneak attack is scored on the wearer,
there is a chance that the critical hit or sneak attack is
negated and damage is instead rolled normally."

"Sword of Subtlety: A +1 short sword with a thin, dull gray
blade, this weapon provides a +4 bonus on its wielder's attack
and damage rolls when he is making a sneak attack with it."

You're "making a sneak attack"; it's just that the effect of the sneak
attack is negated. Since the sword already received the bonus for
"making a sneak attack", you roll normal damage of 1d6+1+4 (plus other
modifiers as appropriate).


Donald
Anonymous
May 27, 2005 5:01:58 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

stq@stq.gro.ku.invalid wrote:

> > So I'm playing a Bard currently and I was looking for any
> > Prestige CLasses or whatever that would make him a better
> > 'martial' bard so to speak.
>
> As you've likely got good CHA, how about multiclassing to a class
> which gets Turn Undead (e.g. cleric or paladin after a few levels)
> and getting the Divine Power feat along with a better BAB?

Indeed, even disregarding Divine Might, Devoted Performer and Extra
Smite make paladin an excellent dip for a melee bard: two levels and two
feats get you Cha to saves and smite evil at at full character level(!)
3/day.


--
Jasin Zujovic
jzujovic@inet.hr
Anonymous
May 27, 2005 5:02:32 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Jasin Zujovic wrote:
> stq@stq.gro.ku.invalid wrote:
>
>
>>>So I'm playing a Bard currently and I was looking for any
>>>Prestige CLasses or whatever that would make him a better
>>>'martial' bard so to speak.
>>
>>As you've likely got good CHA, how about multiclassing to a class
>>which gets Turn Undead (e.g. cleric or paladin after a few levels)
>>and getting the Divine Power feat along with a better BAB?
>
>
> Indeed, even disregarding Divine Might, Devoted Performer and Extra
> Smite make paladin an excellent dip for a melee bard: two levels and two
> feats get you Cha to saves and smite evil at at full character level(!)
> 3/day.
>
>
Bard / Paladin is not a possible multiclass, because of the allignment
restriction, Paladins must be lawful good, whereas a bard cannot be
lawful. Though a Bard / Cleric might be interesting.
Anonymous
May 27, 2005 5:24:01 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

In article <Ikule.1491047$6l.210719@pd7tw2no>,
M!ke <nospamm1k3@atlas.cz> wrote:
>Jasin Zujovic wrote:
>> Indeed, even disregarding Divine Might, Devoted Performer and Extra
>> Smite make paladin an excellent dip for a melee bard: two levels and two
>> feats get you Cha to saves and smite evil at at full character level(!)
>> 3/day.
>>
>>
> Bard / Paladin is not a possible multiclass, because of the allignment
>restriction, Paladins must be lawful good, whereas a bard cannot be
>lawful. Though a Bard / Cleric might be interesting.

But Devoted Performer (a) requires bardic music and smite evil (b) allows free
multiclassing between bard and paladin. I'd rather not throw out the feat as
a plain error. PHB says Paladins must remain LG or lose their powers; for
Bard it doesn't say anything is lost on an alignment change. So even if you
require the bard to start non-lawful, eg NG, it looks to me as though the
player needs to role-play a change to LG, then multiclass as a paladin, then
take Devoted Performer.
--
"Yo' ideas need to be thinked befo' they are say'd" - Ian Lamb, age 3.5
http://www.cs.queensu.ca/~dalamb/ qucis->cs to reply (it's a long story...)
May 27, 2005 1:38:11 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

>>> <snip> Dread Pirate is all about ships and ocean, etc.
>>
>> You could make it large lake based. Or river based.
>
> The Dread Riverboat Pirate Roberts? Hmmm...
>
Only in Saskatchewan.

Spinner
Anonymous
May 27, 2005 3:27:49 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

jim@aaargh.NoBleedinSpam.org wrote:

> >I even looked at the Swashbuckler class... That actually seems the
> >closest if I hadn't already taken 2 levels of Bard and already have
> >Weapon Finesse. The other class abilities seem cool, and it gets Ftr
> >BAB and Hit Points, which is definitely cool. I guess I was picturing a
> >Swashbuckler having lower hit points than a fighter, not as straight up
> >tough I guess.
>
> Agree with your DM to swap the Finesse for something like Imp Disarm,
> Imp Trip, Imp Feint, TWF, Dodge, Mobility or whatever as applicable.
> Otherwise Swashbuckler is best because it uses Cha, which I imagine
> you have plenty of.

How does swashbuckler use Cha, except for a few skills? I thought that
was the most common complaint about the swashbuckler, that there's no
mechanical reason to have high Cha, which is contrary to the genre.

.... we are talking about the Complete Warrior swashbuckler, yes?


--
Jasin Zujovic
jzujovic@inet.hr
Anonymous
May 27, 2005 3:35:53 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Fri, 27 May 2005, M!ke wrote:

> Jasin Zujovic wrote:
>>
>> Indeed, even disregarding Divine Might, Devoted Performer and Extra
>> Smite make paladin an excellent dip for a melee bard: two levels and
>> two feats get you Cha to saves and smite evil at at full character
>> level(!) 3/day.
>>
> Bard / Paladin is not a possible multiclass,

Unless you take the Devoted Performer feat, which allows you to be a
lawful bard.

Cheers,

Gary Johnson
--
Home Page: http://www.uq.net.au/~zzjohnsg
X-Men Campaign Resources: http://members.optusnet.com.au/xmen_campaign
Fantasy Campaign Setting: http://www.uq.net.au/~zzjohnsg/selentia.htm
Anonymous
May 27, 2005 4:54:30 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

tsang@soda.csua.berkeley.edu wrote:

> >> it's certainly not clear how a SoS "knows" that you're sneak-attacking.
> >
> >Certainlty. But I'd say it just knows; magic, y'know.
>
> If it's "magic", then presumably UMD can trick it into thinking you're
> doing it, at DC 20 or 25?

Heh, good point.

Still, I think I'd go with balance over what makes sense, and disallow
it.

But...

Now I'm thinking of a hypothetical sword which gives you +4/+4 to
attack/damage when you use it to smite evil.

You could say it can't be used with UMD, since you're not actually using
smite evil, only pretending you have smite evil, but I think that's
silly.

But if it can be used with UMD, how often can it be used? On every
attack against an evil creature? That's even more of a benefit over the
intended user with the sword of subtlety to be used all the time, since
a rogue will sneak attack on something like half his attacks, while a
paladin will only have a handful of smite evils even at the highest
levels.

BTW, another interesting item to use with UMD, if your modifier is
really high: monk's belt. A 10th-level emulating a 10th-level monk will
have the unarmoured AC and unarmed damage of a 15th-level monk! He's
better off with a sword and breastplate probably, but this does have
it's own charm.

> >Perhaps that might be a good ruling, since it solves one logical problem
> >I've been having with swords of subtlety: say you attack a flat-footed
> >opponent with AC 20 and light fortification. You hit AC 16, 20 with the
> >+4 bonus. Fortification is rolled and comes up 1%, so no sneak attack.
> >But if no sneak attack, did you hit at all considering you only hit
> >because of your +4 bonus which only works when sneak attacking...?
>
> I think if you read the descriptions of "Fortification" and "Sword of
> Subtlety", all will become clear...
>
> "Fortification: This suit of armor or shield produces a magical
> force that protects vital areas of the wearer more effectively.
> When a critical hit or sneak attack is scored on the wearer,
> there is a chance that the critical hit or sneak attack is
> negated and damage is instead rolled normally."
>
> "Sword of Subtlety: A +1 short sword with a thin, dull gray
> blade, this weapon provides a +4 bonus on its wielder's attack
> and damage rolls when he is making a sneak attack with it."
>
> You're "making a sneak attack"; it's just that the effect of the sneak
> attack is negated. Since the sword already received the bonus for
> "making a sneak attack", you roll normal damage of 1d6+1+4 (plus other
> modifiers as appropriate).

Quite so.

Then that's probably the way it should work on undead and constructs
too.


--
Jasin Zujovic
jzujovic@inet.hr
May 27, 2005 4:54:31 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

>> >> it's certainly not clear how a SoS "knows" that you're
>> >> sneak-attacking.
>> >
>> >Certainlty. But I'd say it just knows; magic, y'know.
>>
>> If it's "magic", then presumably UMD can trick it into thinking you're
>> doing it, at DC 20 or 25?
>
> Heh, good point.
>
> Still, I think I'd go with balance over what makes sense, and disallow
> it.
>
Now, now, fellas, fellas. UMD can emulate possession of a class feature,
not its use. You can fake that you're a paladin who can smite evil or a
rogue who can sneak attack or a wizard with a spell list, but there's no way
you can trick a sword of subtlety into believing you've actually made a
sneak attack when you haven't. Any more than you can trick a Rod of
Cancellation into thinking it just hit a Sphere of Annihilation.

> BTW, another interesting item to use with UMD, if your modifier is
> really high: monk's belt. A 10th-level emulating a 10th-level monk will
> have the unarmoured AC and unarmed damage of a 15th-level monk! He's
> better off with a sword and breastplate probably, but this does have
> it's own charm.
>
This can be done IMO. What a cool trick!

Spinner
Anonymous
May 29, 2005 1:44:06 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Murf wrote:
> Martial stoneroper bards
>
> "Mmn-nnaarrrr-rrr-rrrrr"
>
> (waves tentacles around, wielding mutiple scimitars)
>

Actually, that reminds me of the Xorn with a couple of fighter levels I
designed once. I gave it improved disarm and
three wooden clubs, so it could full-attack to disarm and then scoop up
all the tasty swords for good eating. I haven't
sprung it on the party yet, but I'm sure they'll appreciate it.
Anonymous
May 30, 2005 4:57:45 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Behold! for Jasin Zujovic <jzujovic@inet.hr> spake unto the multitude
thus:

>jim@aaargh.NoBleedinSpam.org wrote:
>
snip
>> Otherwise Swashbuckler is best because it uses Cha, which I imagine
>> you have plenty of.
>
>How does swashbuckler use Cha, except for a few skills? I thought that
>was the most common complaint about the swashbuckler, that there's no
>mechanical reason to have high Cha, which is contrary to the genre.
>
>... we are talking about the Complete Warrior swashbuckler, yes?

Oops. Brain fade. I glanced at the initial class description, which
mentioned Cha. Now *somewhere* there's a class that does Cha-based
flashy Zorro bullshit combat moves, and I thought it was this one.
Clearly not. Hmmm.

It may be instructive to see the stats for this character.

--
Jim or Sarah Davies, but probably Jim

D&D and Star Fleet Battles stuff on http://www.aaargh.org
Anonymous
June 6, 2005 7:46:29 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

arivne@cox.net wrote:
> ~consul wrote:
>>webhed wrote:
>>><snip> Dread Pirate is all about ships and ocean, etc.
>>You could make it large lake based. Or river based.
> The Dread Riverboat Pirate Roberts? Hmmm...

I'm reminded of all those river boat casinos of yesteryear, owned by those
'legitamate' business owners.
--
"... respect, all good works are not done by only good folk. For here, at the
end of all things, we shall do what needs to be done."
--till next time, Jameson Stalanthas Yu -x- <<poetry.dolphins-cove.com>>
!