Collegiate Wizard feat

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Issachar44 wrote:
> The Collegiate Wizard feat from Complete Arcane piqued my interest, so
> I sat down to crunch some numbers and see what kind of benefits it
> offers. It's part of a preview on the WotC site:
>
> http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041114a
>
[snip]
>
> I tried to figure how large a monetary advantage the two extra spells
> per level amount to, if you assume that the wizard character would
> otherwise increase his repertoire by purchasing two spell scrolls of
> the highest level he can cast. (Of course, this is a questionable
> assumption -- wizards can often find scrolls or copy spells from other
> wizards' books. It also assumes the availability of spell scrolls the
> wizard might desire to purchase. But for now I'm merrily ignoring
> these factors.)
>
[snip]
>
> For a solid chunk of a wizard's career, this feat *can* be like a free
> extra 20% of normal wealth, depending on how nearly the game adheres to
> the wealth-by-level table.

I forgot to include the cost of writing new spells into a wizard's
spellbook: spell level x 100gp. A wizard doesn't have to pay this
expense for the spells he gets free at each level, which makes the two
extra spells per level even more valuable in monetary terms.

After adding in the extra savings and recalculating the cumulative gp
value of the feat at each level, I got a model that hits a stable
pattern beginning at 4th level. At level 4, the feat is worth 2025gp,
which is 38% of the expected wealth for a character of that level.

>From that point on, the feat's value decreases about one percent each
level until after level 12, when it begins to decrease by two percent
at every level. Some sample values:

Level 4: 2025gp; 38% of standard wealth
Level 8: 9100gp; 34% of standard wealth
Level 12: 24600gp; 28% of standard wealth
Level 16: 51700gp; 20% of standard wealth
Level 20: 89500gp; 12% of standard wealth

Does this seem like a Big Deal™ to anyone else?

--Iss

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Spinner wrote:
> > Does this seem like a Big Deal to anyone else?
>
> Well, it's kinda cool. I don't think it's unbalanced exactly -- some
> Wizards will still be more interested in Metamagic, Creation or other feats.
> But it gives a nice option for a versatility boost for wizards without the
> "hassle" of hunting down scrolls and spellbooks. If it's a popular choice,
> it also gives a more prominent role for the good old wizard's guild which
> doesn't get as much air time as it did in 1st/2nd ed days.

I'm not prepared to argue that it's unbalanced, either -- but it's a
much better feat than it appeared to be at first glance. And I think
it's a nice fit for wizards who go for Item Creation feats: more money
on hand to create more items, and occasionally a larger spell
repertoire may mean the wiz already knows a spell needed to create an
item, when otherwise he might not.

And yeah, it's fun to see wizard guilds and colleges play a meaningful
role in the game.

--Iss

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Peter Meilinger wrote:
>
> Adding a +2 to Knowledge(Arcana) checks on top of that
> seems excessive to me. I've been looking at the SRD and
> I can't find anything addressing this point, but am I
> correct in assuming that taking Skill Focus would give you
> a bonus to one specific Knowledge area rather than all
> of them? So if I took Skill Focus (Knowledge-Arcana) I'd
> get a +3 to checks with that skill?

That's right. Each Knowledge skill is a separate skill, so Skill Focus
only grants +3 to one specific Knowledge skill.

> If that's the case(*), this feat is like trading a +1 to
> the skill for all those extra spells. Or like trading
> a +2 to another related skill for the spells, to use
> the +2/+2 skills as another point of comparison. It
> just seems like too much to me. Take away the +2 to
> Knowledge(Arcana) though and I'd call it a powerful
> and useful but not overpowered feat.

That's a good point, but it's worth noting that the Skill Focus feat
assumes you'll use it on an important skill to get the most value out
of it. Most players would regard Skill Focus: Knowledge (x) as rather
a waste of a feat -- which is one reason the Loremaster prestige class
requires Skill Focus: Knowledge (x) as a prereq. It's forcing
characters to take a suboptimal path to get to all the great perks the
PrC offers.

So the +2 to Knowledge (arcana) from the Collegiate Wizard feat is no
big whoop-de-doo ...but you're right in pointing out that the
extra-spells benefit is feat-worthy all by itself.

--Iss

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Spinner wrote:
>>Does this seem like a Big DealT to anyone else?
> Well, it's kinda cool. I don't think it's unbalanced exactly -- some
> Wizards will still be more interested in Metamagic, Creation or other feats.
> But it gives a nice option for a versatility boost for wizards without the
> "hassle" of hunting down scrolls and spellbooks. If it's a popular choice,
> it also gives a more prominent role for the good old wizard's guild which
> doesn't get as much air time as it did in 1st/2nd ed days.
>
> I like it!

There's also the issue of GM trust. If you trust your GM to
give your character plenty of downtime, take Item Creation
feats. But if you suspect[1] that your GM will be stingy
with spell scrolls, take the Collegiate Wizard feat.

Of course, there's also the control issue. If you rely on
the GM giving your Wizard character spell scrolls, the GM
gets to control which spells your Wizard knows (except for
the ones you may chose yourself, each time you level up).
But if you take the feat, you get more control.


[1] Or *know*, from previous experience with him.

--
Peter Knutsen
sagatafl.org

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Issachar44 wrote:
>
> Level 4: 2025gp; 38% of standard wealth
> Level 8: 9100gp; 34% of standard wealth
> Level 12: 24600gp; 28% of standard wealth
> Level 16: 51700gp; 20% of standard wealth
> Level 20: 89500gp; 12% of standard wealth
>
> Does this seem like a Big Deal™ to anyone else?
>
> --Iss

So let's create a fighter version for comparison sake. Would you take
a feat that gave you a 20% on your starting wealth, plus a bonus equal
to 20% of the value of all your personal possessions, payable each time
you go up a level? Oh, yeah, plus a +2 bonus Knowledge(Martial
History)?

Sounds good to me, we'll call it Noble Pension.

-- Please, note the sarcasm, above. I think this is too good of a feat
to be acceptable.

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Issachar44 wrote:
> Issachar44 wrote:
> > The Collegiate Wizard feat from Complete Arcane piqued my interest, so
> > I sat down to crunch some numbers and see what kind of benefits it
> > offers. It's part of a preview on the WotC site:
> >
> > http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041114a
> >

Seems like a good

> [snip]
> >
> > I tried to figure how large a monetary advantage the two extra spells
> > per level amount to, if you assume that the wizard character would
> > otherwise increase his repertoire by purchasing two spell scrolls of
> > the highest level he can cast. (Of course, this is a questionable
> > assumption -- wizards can often find scrolls or copy spells from other
> > wizards' books. It also assumes the availability of spell scrolls the
> > wizard might desire to purchase. But for now I'm merrily ignoring
> > these factors.)
> >
> [snip]
> >
> > For a solid chunk of a wizard's career, this feat *can* be like a free
> > extra 20% of normal wealth, depending on how nearly the game adheres to
> > the wealth-by-level table.
>

You greatly overestimate the cost. You don't need scrolls to get the
spells from, you just need to borrow or trade with other wizards, or
receive thier books as part of loot. I forget where the cost is listed
for copying from an NPC's spellbook but I have seen it before, and it
is significantly less than buying a scroll.

> I forgot to include the cost of writing new spells into a wizard's
> spellbook: spell level x 100gp. A wizard doesn't have to pay this
> expense for the spells he gets free at each level, which makes the two
> extra spells per level even more valuable in monetary terms.
>

Even this is overestimated. A Boccob's Blessed Book will greatly
reduce the cost of scribing (basically to the cost of the book).

> After adding in the extra savings and recalculating the cumulative gp
> value of the feat at each level, I got a model that hits a stable
> pattern beginning at 4th level. At level 4, the feat is worth 2025gp,
> which is 38% of the expected wealth for a character of that level.
>
> >From that point on, the feat's value decreases about one percent each
> level until after level 12, when it begins to decrease by two percent
> at every level. Some sample values:
>
> Level 4: 2025gp; 38% of standard wealth
> Level 8: 9100gp; 34% of standard wealth
> Level 12: 24600gp; 28% of standard wealth
> Level 16: 51700gp; 20% of standard wealth
> Level 20: 89500gp; 12% of standard wealth
>
> Does this seem like a Big Deal™ to anyone else?

It is a pretty significant feat, and addresses a serious problem with
wizards. I've found in my campain the main attraction of wizards,
thier versatility is mostly nerfed into oblivion by the spell costs
both in time and money which no other class has to pay. I don't
believe the standard nubmer of spells an NPC wizard has is taken into
account in thier equipment costs either. However I believe this means
that rather than being a problem with the NPCs it's a problem because
it isn't taken into account by the creators for PC wizards.

- Justisaur