Crazy domain spells idea

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It's simple. It's crazy. But I'd love to try a potentially unbalancing
house rule because it'd be so easy to implement and would cure what I see as
one of the HUGE stylistic flaws in the game, that is, that clerics of all
these colourfully varied deities in the various worlds ARE ALL THE FRIGGIN'
SAME!!!

Maybe it's just me but I find the use of domains in the current game is
extremely flavourless -- most clerics end up looking pretty much the same in
the end regardless of deity. They have the *full* range of the cleric spell
list (so everyone can take Shape Stone for example, there's no limiting it
to Earth Clerics). Then they get these domain spells, half of which are
already part of the cleric spell list anyway and only take up 10-30% of any
given cleric's spell allotment anyway. And these domain powers -- some can
be kick-ass and interesting (but these are usually based on rare usage [like
turning Air creatures] or are 1/day items [like the feat of Strength]). Or
some can be something like "+1 on all lawful spells"! All in all, every
cleric seems to have the same range of options and comes out much the same
as every other cleric.

Do you all agree with me or what?



Anyways, the basic change is this:

1. Remove the domain spell slot entirely [ie., do not replace it with
anything -- this reduces the cleric's overall number of slots by 1 per 2
levels]

2. Treat the domain spell list as a list of spells that a cleric can cast as
if they were *one level lower*.



Think about a cleric of St. Cuthbert, for example. Starting out, he might
be able to cast Protection from Chaos as a *0-lvl spell*! Instantly useful
(if narrow and always on-theme) spell slots appear for the first level
cleric! And watch him cast Shatter (from the Destruction domain) as a
*1st-lvl spell*!

That to me just sounds so cool -- you've got buckets of flavour, since a
cleric *will* have the whole spell list to pick from but they'll *always* be
well served by selecting spells within their domain. You've got loss of the
domain slot as a balancing factor against the fact that every lesser slot
suddenly becomes useful. Seems pretty good.


Of course, the big caveat is what do we do about clerics casting Invis at
1st level, Teleport at 7th, Heal at 9th (or wherever it is), Anti-Magic
Shell at 9th, etc. These seem radical and might affect the usual
expectations of a PC party's Challenge Rating scheme ... but are they really
game-breakers? These "leaps forward" will all be within the cleric's
specialty and will be limited to one spell per level. Sort of makes the
domain choice suddenly a lot more interesting.

Critiques, please. If you think it'll break the game, please point out if
you can specific abuses you think will crop up.

Spinner

 

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Spinner wrote:
> Anyways, the basic change is this:
>
> 1. Remove the domain spell slot entirely [ie., do not replace it with
> anything -- this reduces the cleric's overall number of slots by 1 per 2
> levels]
>
> 2. Treat the domain spell list as a list of spells that a cleric can cast as
> if they were *one level lower*.

<snip>

> Critiques, please. If you think it'll break the game, please point out if
> you can specific abuses you think will crop up.

I like it. It shakes up the balance between domains nicely, though,
which may be a good or a bad thing.

I looked through all of the domains in the SRD, and I have to say that
some domains become borderline broken with this. Domains with Summon
spells become a whole lot more interesting, and the Healing domain goes
from "completely useless" to "pretty damn awesome".

I don't really like what happens to the Knowledge domain. It was a good
domain as-is, and I'm really uncomfortable with the idea of True Seeing
as a level 4 spell. (I'm not a fan of True Seeing at all, but I'm even
less of a fan with it at level 4.)

The Luck and Strength domains also become _very_ powerful, with
excellent spells at insanely low levels. Again, they were great domains
to start with... this probably pushes them over the edge, balance-wise.

Basically, since I believe clerics are quite powerful enough as is, I
wouldn't use this system. A pity, because I really like the idea behind
it.

Laszlo

 

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In article <3fopdhF7ita7U1@individual.net>, "Spinner" <bprentic@uwo.ca>
wrote:

> It's simple. It's crazy. But I'd love to try a potentially unbalancing
> house rule because it'd be so easy to implement and would cure what I see as
> one of the HUGE stylistic flaws in the game, that is, that clerics of all
> these colourfully varied deities in the various worlds ARE ALL THE FRIGGIN'
> SAME!!!
>
> Maybe it's just me but I find the use of domains in the current game is
> extremely flavourless -- most clerics end up looking pretty much the same in
> the end regardless of deity. They have the *full* range of the cleric spell
> list (so everyone can take Shape Stone for example, there's no limiting it
> to Earth Clerics). Then they get these domain spells, half of which are
> already part of the cleric spell list anyway and only take up 10-30% of any
> given cleric's spell allotment anyway. And these domain powers -- some can
> be kick-ass and interesting (but these are usually based on rare usage [like
> turning Air creatures] or are 1/day items [like the feat of Strength]). Or
> some can be something like "+1 on all lawful spells"! All in all, every
> cleric seems to have the same range of options and comes out much the same
> as every other cleric.
>
> Do you all agree with me or what?


Agree wholeheartedly.

IMC, after trashing the cleric spell list/domain system entirely we took
some extra time and generated a unique spell list for each of the 8
major clerics in the campaign. Admittedly, the campaign was a conversion
from 2E that made use of The Complete Priest's Handbook's customization
guidelines....so we just converted those specialty clerics to 3e rules.

 

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This is a common idea for representing various kinds of specialty
magic; I've used it to represent wizard spell specialization in the
past. It's playable. However ... I think doing things this way for
domains may be a touch of a departure.

One: The domain magic idea was there to allow a cleric to "always' have
the signature spells of his faith at his fingertips; regardless of the
"useful" clerical magic one memorizes, there will always be Saint
Knucklehead's Blessing of the Foo, and so on. Shifting to "you can
memorize them easily if you want" essentially discards a heap of domain
magic in favor of "more immediately useful" spells. It's a big change
in character.

Two: The domain structure already allows for spells to be cast "early"
by the simple expedient of putting them in a lower level spell slot
(IIRC some do exactly that), so you might be double dipping with your
approach if you're not careful.

Three: Where wizard spells cross over onto cleric lists, it may not be
quite as fair to cast these at lower levels than they were originally
given.

Four: This is a total of 18 underlevelled spells; that's quite a few!

Five: Some domain spells are unique to those domains and thus casting
them at all is a privelege; there's another double-dip if we let the
priest both cast them uniquely and cast them _easily_.

I think there's a better solution than lowering their levels; namely,
tossing the bonus slot and letting the spells on the domain lists be
cast _spontaneously_. That settles the always-available "character"
issue and doesn't raise any balance concerns (spontaneous is 'better'
but losing a spell slot per level makes up for that easily enough), and
retains the heaps-o-flavor we're after. Any desire to put a spell on
the 'more easily cast' list can be done by lowering their spell level
in the domain list *individually*.

I strongly believe that the domain system should be used just as a
starting point; take each deity a PC uses, go through the suggested
domains and pick one *unified* list of spells (2 spells/spell level)
out of that lot that best represents the magical inclinations of that
god. That's what I do, and it works very, very well. This whole
"different aspects" thing seems a little hokey to me.

The default system is great for populating stock WOTC products, but our
own campaigns allow for a litle extra TLC (and in principle, we only
have to do the exercise once per cleric PC or NPC).

-Michael

 

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Bill the Omnipotent wrote:
> On Fri, 27 May 2005 10:33:21 -0400, "Spinner" <bprentic@uwo.ca> wrote:
>
>
> >Anyways, the basic change is this:
> >
> >1. Remove the domain spell slot entirely [ie., do not replace it with
> >anything -- this reduces the cleric's overall number of slots by 1 per 2
> >levels]
>
> This one I agree with. I'd also say that good/evil clerics lose the ability to spontaneously cast
> cure/inflict spells. In return, all clerics can spontaneously cast any spell on their domain spell lists. I
> think this is in Unearthed Arcana somewhere.

Bad idea. No matter what some people rank on clerics about, which I
don't, but this rule was the #1 best thing D&D ever did for clerics.
It's the nature of the game. Pre 3E there just never was enough
healing to go around. That is not to say that player characters were
dieing all over the place because they could never heal, but rather
clerics had to memorize almost all their 1st level slots as Cure Light
Wounds and 4th level slots for Cure Serious Wounds. Clerics could
hardly do anything but heal, which made for boring clerics, which made
for why even today some people don't want to play clerics because they
think that's all they do. I still remember how back in college two
players ended their friendship with me because I dared cast a spell
that as not Cure Light Wounds, and we were using house rules spell
points where you didn't have to memorize spells. <shakes head>

Anyway, clerics should keep spontaneous curing. Don't take that away
from them.

Gerald Katz

 

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>> Anyways, the basic change is this:
>>
>> 1. Remove the domain spell slot entirely [ie., do not replace it with
>> anything -- this reduces the cleric's overall number of slots by 1 per 2
>> levels]
>>
>> 2. Treat the domain spell list as a list of spells that a cleric can cast
>> as
>> if they were *one level lower*.
>
> <snip>
>
>> Critiques, please. If you think it'll break the game, please point out
>> if
>> you can specific abuses you think will crop up.
>
> I like it. It shakes up the balance between domains nicely, though,
> which may be a good or a bad thing.
>
> I looked through all of the domains in the SRD, and I have to say that
> some domains become borderline broken with this. Domains with Summon
> spells become a whole lot more interesting, and the Healing domain goes
> from "completely useless" to "pretty damn awesome".
>
> I don't really like what happens to the Knowledge domain. It was a good
> domain as-is, and I'm really uncomfortable with the idea of True Seeing
> as a level 4 spell. (I'm not a fan of True Seeing at all, but I'm even
> less of a fan with it at level 4.)
>
> The Luck and Strength domains also become _very_ powerful, with
> excellent spells at insanely low levels. Again, they were great domains
> to start with... this probably pushes them over the edge, balance-wise.
>
> Basically, since I believe clerics are quite powerful enough as is, I
> wouldn't use this system. A pity, because I really like the idea behind
> it.
>
Well, mine was the "lazy man's rule" -- required virtually no hard work.
You could use the idea *and* keep your precious balance with a few
substitutions in the tables. Wouldn't be too hard to swap in/out True
Seeing for something else and move it up the ladder. I agree with your
analysis BTW, they did the right thing with the "discount True Seeing" and
having exciting choices in some of the domains ... but they didn't apply it
broadly enough, nor did they extend it enough even for those clerics with
the "cool" domains (e.g., Kn clerics get a discount True Seeing once per day
.... big whoop).

Adapt and try it! I want someone to give it a go (my group's too
conservative ... unless I can wrest power from them ... and take over the
storyline and ruleset ...)

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I've mentioned this before, but I still like my idea of bringing back
the idea of 2E spheres. The basics is to give all deities more domains
than by the book that fit their portfolio, and let all and only those
spells be on their respective clerics' spell list. Create new Domains
or allow exisiting Domains to have two spells per level, inlcuding 0
level spells, to encompass important cleric spells not currently in a
Domain, such as Raise Dead or Summon Monster IV. Keep spontaneous
Curing/Inflicting. Individual clerics pick two Domains for Domain
abilities. Since every good cleric and postiive channelling neutral
cleric get the Healing Domain spells spontaneously, change Healing
Domain ability to either Lay On Hands as a paladin or now that it's
available, free Augment Healing Feat.

When I next have insomnia I'll bother to work on this project for my
own amusement :b.

Gerald Katz

 

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On Fri, 27 May 2005 10:33:21 -0400, "Spinner" <bprentic@uwo.ca> wrote:


>Anyways, the basic change is this:
>
>1. Remove the domain spell slot entirely [ie., do not replace it with
>anything -- this reduces the cleric's overall number of slots by 1 per 2
>levels]

This one I agree with. I'd also say that good/evil clerics lose the ability to spontaneously cast
cure/inflict spells. In return, all clerics can spontaneously cast any spell on their domain spell lists. I
think this is in Unearthed Arcana somewhere.

 

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bprentic@uwo.ca wrote:

> Anyways, the basic change is this:
>
> 1. Remove the domain spell slot entirely [ie., do not replace it with
> anything -- this reduces the cleric's overall number of slots by 1 per 2
> levels]
>
> 2. Treat the domain spell list as a list of spells that a cleric can cast as
> if they were *one level lower*.

Interesting...

> Think about a cleric of St. Cuthbert, for example. Starting out, he might
> be able to cast Protection from Chaos as a *0-lvl spell*! Instantly useful
> (if narrow and always on-theme) spell slots appear for the first level
> cleric! And watch him cast Shatter (from the Destruction domain) as a
> *1st-lvl spell*!

Note that his enemies will also save against it as a 1st-level spell, so
it's a bit of a mixed blessing. Still a benefit on the whole, but it's
something to keep in mind.

> Of course, the big caveat is what do we do about clerics casting Invis at
> 1st level, Teleport at 7th, Heal at 9th (or wherever it is), Anti-Magic
> Shell at 9th, etc. These seem radical and might affect the usual
> expectations of a PC party's Challenge Rating scheme ... but are they really
> game-breakers? These "leaps forward" will all be within the cleric's
> specialty and will be limited to one spell per level.

One spell per level? I thought removing the domain slot meant you could
prepare domain spells in normal slots (albeit lower level ones).

Say you have a 1st-level Cleric with the War domain, spells per day
4/2/1 (no domain slots). How many magic weapons can he prepare? How many
spiritual weapons?

> Critiques, please. If you think it'll break the game, please point out if
> you can specific abuses you think will crop up.

I think it'd be playable. Let us know how it goes if you try it out.

BTW, there's another option you might consider, which I think would be
less likely to cause balance problems: allowing domain spells to be cast
spontaneously in exchange for losing the domain slot. This is suggested
in Unearthed Arcana.


--
Jasin Zujovic
jzujovic@inet.hr

 

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mistermichael@earthlink.net wrote:

> I think there's a better solution than lowering their levels; namely,
> tossing the bonus slot and letting the spells on the domain lists be
> cast _spontaneously_.

Ah, that's what I get for replying without finishing the thread.

> That settles the always-available "character"
> issue and doesn't raise any balance concerns (spontaneous is 'better'
> but losing a spell slot per level makes up for that easily enough),

There still are some potential balance concerns, I think.

Some domains give non-Clr spells and under the assumption that you'll
only be able to use the spell once per day anyway. Making it
spontaneously available not only frees you from ever having to worry
about whether you'll need the spell in advance, but also potentially
allows you to cast it many more times in a given day.

Fate has true strike. Retribution, Fire, Sun have fire shield. Travel
has fly and dimension door. War has all the power words. These are some
nice spells, and a cleric will be happy to be able to use more times per
day...

Still, I don't think nothing would get scewed up too bad. I'll probably
use the rule the next time I run, with clerics with the Healing domain
using d12 instead of d8 for cures, so they get a benefit from their
domain choice too.

> I strongly believe that the domain system should be used just as a
> starting point; take each deity a PC uses, go through the suggested
> domains and pick one *unified* list of spells (2 spells/spell level)
> out of that lot that best represents the magical inclinations of that
> god. That's what I do, and it works very, very well. This whole
> "different aspects" thing seems a little hokey to me.

This is tangential to the original question, and a matter of taste, but:
why?

I quite like the different aspects thing. It allows you to have
differently focused clerics of the same god, perhaps even different
priestly orders built around different domain combinations. A cleric of
Tyr with War and Knowledge might be quite different than one with Law
and Retribution...


--
Jasin Zujovic
jzujovic@inet.hr

 

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"Jasin Zujovic" <jzujovic@inet.hr> wrote in message
news:MPG.1d01da758cd41ed9989abd@news.iskon.hr...
> mistermichael@earthlink.net wrote:
> > I think there's a better solution than lowering their levels; namely,
> > tossing the bonus slot and letting the spells on the domain lists be
> > cast _spontaneously_.
....
> There still are some potential balance concerns, I think.
> Some domains give non-Clr spells and under the assumption that you'll
> only be able to use the spell once per day anyway.

It's not clear to me that this fixes into the "balance" equation all
that much (particularly given that the non-clrs are usually at a higher
level than normal). Further, given that wizards and sorcerers (and the
relevant druids) can cast such spells repeatedly without a balance concern,
it doesn't seem like being able to cast a spell repeatedly would be one for
the cleric. Presumably, spells of a given level are balanced against one
another, after all! However, if there actually is a spell that would raise
flags for a cleric to cast spontaneously & repeatedly, we always have the
option of flagging those particular spells as "spontaneously _once_".

> Fate has true strike. Retribution, Fire, Sun have fire shield. Travel
> has fly and dimension door. War has all the power words. These are some
> nice spells, and a cleric will be happy to be able to use more times per
day...

I don't see any of these as unbalancing when used repeatedly by a cleric
at all.

> > I strongly believe that the domain system should be used just as a
> > starting point; take each deity a PC uses, go through the suggested
> > domains and pick one *unified* list of spells (2 spells/spell level)
> > out of that lot that best represents the magical inclinations of that
> > god. That's what I do, and it works very, very well. This whole
> > "different aspects" thing seems a little hokey to me.
>
> This is tangential to the original question, and a matter of taste, but:
why?

I was running a campaign that featured Greek gods, and found that the
stock system was a very imperfect translation of the kinds of signature
miracles I would expect their representatives to be able to perform. For
instance, Apollo is ostensibly a musician, healer, archer, oracle,
justice-giver *and* Sun God (tm), and you just can't really capture all the
flavor of the boy with just 2 domains. Healing and Sun, of course, get you
a goodly distance in the right direction, but that leaves out _so much_ of
his legendary breadth I felt that the cookie cutter was a little coarse.
But you don't need every single one of these aspects to be represented by an
entire _domain_; just a spell or two of the appropriate theme is good
enough. So if you throw in, say, an Enthrall here and a Divination there,
War domain archery feats even though he has a lot of Sun spells, etc... you
get a much more sophisticated result. "Aspects" were a non-issue in this
campaign since all priesthoods were underground.

> I quite like the different aspects thing. It allows you to have
> differently focused clerics of the same god, perhaps even different
> priestly orders built around different domain combinations. A cleric of
> Tyr with War and Knowledge might be quite different than one with Law
> and Retribution...

A perfectly valid aesthetic position. In the right campaigns, this is
perfectly sensible, and potentially even a very rich roleplaying environment
since you could conceivably have two sects of the same god clashing over
some point of scriptural emphasis.

-Michael

 

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On 27 May 2005 15:33:12 -0700, "Hadsil" <forumite@netzero.com> wrote:


>Anyway, clerics should keep spontaneous curing. Don't take that away
>from them.

They can always take the healing domain if they feel it's important.

 

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> Interesting...
>
Thanks.

>> Think about a cleric of St. Cuthbert, for example. Starting out, he
>> might
>> be able to cast Protection from Chaos as a *0-lvl spell*! Instantly
>> useful
>> (if narrow and always on-theme) spell slots appear for the first level
>> cleric! And watch him cast Shatter (from the Destruction domain) as a
>> *1st-lvl spell*!
>
> Note that his enemies will also save against it as a 1st-level spell, so
> it's a bit of a mixed blessing. Still a benefit on the whole, but it's
> something to keep in mind.
>
This makes the balancing nicer IMO.

>> Of course, the big caveat is what do we do about clerics casting Invis at
>> 1st level, Teleport at 7th, Heal at 9th (or wherever it is), Anti-Magic
>> Shell at 9th, etc. These seem radical and might affect the usual
>> expectations of a PC party's Challenge Rating scheme ... but are they
>> really
>> game-breakers? These "leaps forward" will all be within the cleric's
>> specialty and will be limited to one spell per level.
>
> One spell per level? I thought removing the domain slot meant you could
> prepare domain spells in normal slots (albeit lower level ones).
>
You're right -- my sentence might be a little ambiguous. I meant "one
specific spell per spell level gets a discount".

> Say you have a 1st-level Cleric with the War domain, spells per day
> 4/2/1 (no domain slots).
> How many magic weapons can he prepare?
4
> How many spiritual weapons?
2

You've got the right idea.


>> Critiques, please. If you think it'll break the game, please point out
>> if
>> you can specific abuses you think will crop up.
>
> I think it'd be playable. Let us know how it goes if you try it out.
>
I will.

> BTW, there's another option you might consider, which I think would be
> less likely to cause balance problems: allowing domain spells to be cast
> spontaneously in exchange for losing the domain slot. This is suggested
> in Unearthed Arcana.
>
Yeah -- it's an old chestnut and doesn't produce the desired results IME (we
tried it briefly ... if the spells aren't that great or the opportunities
don't arise that make you *want* to cast spontaneously, those domain aspects
get lost anyway ... OTOH, if you've got to commit and you're looking at a
discount, you're strongly tempted to prepare, for example, a shatter and
then *look* for a way to use it). Nothing say, "use me!" like a spell
sitting in your mind and going to waste.

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mistermichael@earthlink.net wrote:

> > > I think there's a better solution than lowering their levels; namely,
> > > tossing the bonus slot and letting the spells on the domain lists be
> > > cast _spontaneously_.
> >
> > There still are some potential balance concerns, I think.
> > Some domains give non-Clr spells and under the assumption that you'll
> > only be able to use the spell once per day anyway.
>
> It's not clear to me that this fixes into the "balance" equation all
> that much (particularly given that the non-clrs are usually at a higher
> level than normal). Further, given that wizards and sorcerers (and the
> relevant druids) can cast such spells repeatedly without a balance concern,
> it doesn't seem like being able to cast a spell repeatedly would be one for
> the cleric. Presumably, spells of a given level are balanced against one
> another, after all!

Spells of a given level of a given spell list, surely! Wizards are total
physical wimps who cast spells, clerics are physically average with even
more spells; if they're to be balanced at all, it would stand to reason
that that cleric spells are, on the whole, weaker than wizard spells,
no?

Now, if you allow clerics to also cast a bunch of tasty wizard spells...

And fire shield and true strike are tasty, IMO, much more so than for a
wizard. Even with fire shield up, a wizard won't be too eager to get
into a position where his d4 is being kicked around in melee, while a
cleric with fire shield should feel just fine wading in. Excluding
utility uses like hitting the apple on the prince's head and such, what
spectacular thing is a wizard with true strike going to do? Make sure he
hits with his crossbow for 1d8? A cleric will grab his morningstar in
two hands and Power Attack for +10 attack, +20 damage from a 1st-level
spell. There is a reason, after all, why the wizard can't cast true
strike or fire shield on the cleric, but only on himself.

As anecdotal evidence, for the one session I played my
Fate/Travel/Retribution cleric (with some third-domain-granting PrC...),
before we got TPKed by a fire shielded cleric, she had true strike in
her 1st- and 2nd-level domain slots, and Quickened true strike in her
5th- and 6th-level domain slots, and used them to good effect. I didn't
have fire shield prepared, because I considered dimension door a better
use of the 4th-level slot.

With spontaneous domain casting, I could've had all the true strikes I
wanted, and fire shield, and have dimension door ready if I needed it...

> However, if there actually is a spell that would raise
> flags for a cleric to cast spontaneously & repeatedly, we always have the
> option of flagging those particular spells as "spontaneously _once_".

Eh. I don't like that. It keeps the "I've got my god's power always at
my fingertips" aspect, but it still means that the cleric of the God of
True Striking casts only one true strike per day, and five divine
favours.

Ideally, domain spells would work as described in Unearthed Arcana
(spontaneous casting) with the domains balanced with that in mind to
begin with. So true strike is 2nd-level for Fate, fire shield is 5th (or
6th...) &c.

Practically, I think I'll just use spontaneous domain casting and
domains as they are. The domains weren't quite so perfectly balanced to
begin with, so a bit of power shifting won't do that much harm.

> > > I strongly believe that the domain system should be used just as a
> > > starting point; take each deity a PC uses, go through the suggested
> > > domains and pick one *unified* list of spells (2 spells/spell level)
> > > out of that lot that best represents the magical inclinations of that
> > > god. That's what I do, and it works very, very well. This whole
> > > "different aspects" thing seems a little hokey to me.
> >
> > This is tangential to the original question, and a matter of taste, but:
> why?
>
> I was running a campaign that featured Greek gods, and found that the
> stock system was a very imperfect translation of the kinds of signature
> miracles I would expect their representatives to be able to perform. For
> instance, Apollo is ostensibly a musician, healer, archer, oracle,
> justice-giver *and* Sun God (tm), and you just can't really capture all the
> flavor of the boy with just 2 domains. Healing and Sun, of course, get you
> a goodly distance in the right direction, but that leaves out _so much_ of
> his legendary breadth I felt that the cookie cutter was a little coarse.
> But you don't need every single one of these aspects to be represented by an
> entire _domain_; just a spell or two of the appropriate theme is good
> enough. So if you throw in, say, an Enthrall here and a Divination there,
> War domain archery feats even though he has a lot of Sun spells, etc... you
> get a much more sophisticated result. "Aspects" were a non-issue in this
> campaign since all priesthoods were underground.

OK, this sounds reasonable too.

> > I quite like the different aspects thing. It allows you to have
> > differently focused clerics of the same god, perhaps even different
> > priestly orders built around different domain combinations. A cleric of
> > Tyr with War and Knowledge might be quite different than one with Law
> > and Retribution...
>
> A perfectly valid aesthetic position. In the right campaigns, this is
> perfectly sensible, and potentially even a very rich roleplaying environment
> since you could conceivably have two sects of the same god clashing over
> some point of scriptural emphasis.

I think they even mention this in the DMG. Disagreements between "the
prophets" (Good and Knowledge) and "the justicators" (Law and War)...


--
Jasin Zujovic
jzujovic@inet.hr

 

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Spinner wrote:

*Snip a bunch of proposed cleric changes*

Well I've got much farther than that. Clerics can spontaneously cast
any domain spell from any slot of that level. I've removed the casting
cure/inflict though. It has definatly made clerics a bit more
powerful, but I still find no one actually wants to play a cleric. I
haven't run into any major problems so far, but some minor ones -
especially with fire, had a player play a cleric with fire domain, and
he was tossing all sorts of stuff around you'd expect a sorcerer to do
without the poor ac and hp.

- Justisaur.

 

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"Jasin Zujovic" <jzujovic@inet.hr> wrote in message
news:MPG.1d03c21e600c809989ac1@news.iskon.hr...
> > It's not clear to me that this fixes into the "balance" equation all
> > that much (particularly given that the non-clrs are usually at a higher
> > level than normal). Further, given that wizards and sorcerers (and the
> > relevant druids) can cast such spells repeatedly without a balance
concern,
> > it doesn't seem like being able to cast a spell repeatedly would be one
for
> > the cleric. Presumably, spells of a given level are balanced against one
> > another, after all!
>
> Spells of a given level of a given spell list, surely! Wizards are total
> physical wimps who cast spells, clerics are physically average with even
> more spells; if they're to be balanced at all, it would stand to reason
> that that cleric spells are, on the whole, weaker than wizard spells, no?

Clerical magic is every bit as powerful as wizard magic in 3E; this
old canard about wizard magic being "better" needs to be considered
carefully. It's simply different. Wizard magic has more breadth, and does
certain things (direct damage) more efficiently that clerical magic does,
but clerical magic includes effects wizards can't create, either (great
buffs, and check out some of those aligned domain spells!). The "potential"
for more ultimate flexibility in one's magical options is all well and good
and "powerful" for the wizard as a class, but that doesn't mean that
(outside of direct damage spells) any given wizard spell is automatically
"better" than that of a cleric spell of the same level, nor does access to a
spell or two outside the ususal can of clerical goodies break the balance
bank with respect to making the cleric "too" flexible and suddenly competing
with wizards for their breadth.
Reducing the spells/day of the cleric by one/casting level mitigates
that, regardless.

As far as domain lists are concerned, what wizard spells appear there
are occasionally bumped a level up, but otherwise don't seem blatantly more
powerful than anything a cleric could do with spells of that level on his
own. Chain Lightning is the only potential offender here (in Air, 6th level
for wizards, too- probably un-moved b/c many air spells are low utility),
but it can do 11-66 (at 11th) or 20-120 (at 20th) to one target and, while
6th level Harm can do 110 (at 11th) or 200 (at 20th) to one target ... so
it's not as if this ability is letting the cleric destroy things he could
not already. The mass-minion tickling of Chain L's splash damage is minor
(5d6 damage at 11th level; 10d6 splash by 20th), though this ability to
clean up minions probably makes it about as useful as Harm again.

> And fire shield and true strike are tasty, IMO, much more so than for a
> wizard. Even with fire shield up, a wizard won't be too eager to get
> into a position where his d4 is being kicked around in melee, while a
> cleric with fire shield should feel just fine wading in.

? You are arguing that Fire Shield is better for clerics because they
can force more opponents to *damage them in melee* than a wizard? This
argument does not hold much water. Wizards have ample resources to change
that d4 to a d24 (using a horrible abuse of statistics on stoneskin which I
don't recommend), which competes well enough with the cleric's spontaneous
healing required to maintain such a pyrrhic strategy. If you simply meant
that more melee attacks come to a meleeing cleric; I would point out that
w/o multiclassing (which evens the deck for wizard and cleric alike) a
meleeing cleric is not a particularly dominant clerical combat strategy.
Further, for the wizard who wishes to stay out of melee and cast spells,
Fire Shield is one more deterrent (and a much needed defense when
deterrence fails); how can you say it is not less valuable for the wizard?
You should consider that Fire Shield is provided at 5th level to the
Fire Domain, which means that it is competing with Righteous Might. Fire
Shield only works if someone hits you in melee; something that intelligent
opponents will refrain from doing and even unintelligent ones may learn to
avoid. Righteous Might, on the other hand, amplifies the damage of every
attack you can make. Which is the more powerful spell? Under most
circumstances, Fire Shield is not superior.

>Excluding utility uses like hitting the apple on the prince's head and
such, what
> spectacular thing is a wizard with true strike going to do? Make sure he
> hits with his crossbow for 1d8? A cleric will grab his morningstar in
> two hands and Power Attack for +10 attack, +20 damage from a 1st-level
> spell. There is a reason, after all, why the wizard can't cast true
> strike or fire shield on the cleric, but only on himself.

This argument is also bankrupt. Why do you think a wizard can't do
exactly the same thing with his staff (or greataxe) if need be? Power Attack
is not restricted somehow to Clerics, and multiclassed spellcaster-fighters
with BABs over 10 love this stunt. Further, ensuring that some attack
spells do not miss can be worth the investment, as can using an _enchanted_
missile weapon to strike enemies at extreme ranges and snipe them to death
before they can even engage.

However, those who claim it is a problem seem to overlook the
_horrific_ effect it has on one's average damage. In order to do this, one
(a) *DOES NOT ATTACK FOR ONE ROUND* while casting true strike
(b) Take a -10 penalty to hit on one's second, third, and fourth
attacks (if any) in the next round.
(c) Gets one attack off at a net +10 to hit, for a net +20 to damage.

For a character with a BAB of 10, he trades four attacks (+10x2 &
+5x2) for one attack at +20/+20 & 1 each at *-5*/+0.
For a character with a BAB of 15, he trades six attacks (+15x2, +10x2,
+5x2) for one attack at +25/+20, 1 each at 0 & -5
For a character with a BAB of 20, he trades eight attacks (+20x2,
+15x2, +10x2, +5x2) for one at +30/+20, 1 each at +5,0, -5.

Now, do you really want to suggest that the effectively "missing"
three to seven attacks from this gambit wouldn't have amounted to 20 points
of damage?
I'm not buying it. All this does is burn spells on dramatic single
hits and gull the foolish into thinking that this is powerful. Magic
Missile does up to 25 points of damage when used by a 9th level caster. Is
that so different from a power-attack enabled two-handed (shield-free) true
strike?

> With spontaneous domain casting, I could've had all the true strikes I
> wanted, and fire shield, and have dimension door ready if I needed it...

Which is as it should be for a fate/travel/retribution guy! "Oh, no,
sir! I can't dimension door today, because I memorized my _other_ domain
spell!". Some farstrider! True strike + power attack is an illusory
advantage at best, and fire shield's perceived overpower is handled by
making it 5th for clerics and thus making it always inferior to righteous
might ... there's really no issue with being more powerful than other
clerical magic, here.

> > However, if there actually is a spell that would raise
> > flags for a cleric to cast spontaneously & repeatedly, we always have
the
> > option of flagging those particular spells as "spontaneously _once_".
>
> Eh. I don't like that. It keeps the "I've got my god's power always at
> my fingertips" aspect, but it still means that the cleric of the God of
> True Striking casts only one true strike per day, and five divine favours.

I don't see what's not to like about that if you think True Strike is
dangerous in repetition (it really isn't). Further, if you are concerned
about repeated uses of True Strike (which you shouldn't be), letting them be
memorized repeatedly (much less as cantrips!) doesn't do a damnned thing to
limit their usage!

-Michael

 

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Sorry for the Ubi-ish post, but...

Spinner <bprentic@uwo.ca> wrote:
>1. Remove the domain spell slot entirely [ie., do not replace it with
>anything -- this reduces the cleric's overall number of slots by 1 per 2
>levels]
>
>2. Treat the domain spell list as a list of spells that a cleric can cast as
>if they were *one level lower*.

To prevent some of the abuses here, how about making it "if the spell
is already on the cleric list, it can be cast as a spell one level lower
than normal. This reduction doesn't stack with itself..."

Donald

 

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In article <VC0ne.3060$s64.435@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
mistermichael@earthlink.net says...

> > > It's not clear to me that this fixes into the "balance" equation all
> > > that much (particularly given that the non-clrs are usually at a higher
> > > level than normal). Further, given that wizards and sorcerers (and the
> > > relevant druids) can cast such spells repeatedly without a balance
> > > concern, it doesn't seem like being able to cast a spell repeatedly would be one
> > > for the cleric. Presumably, spells of a given level are balanced against one
> > > another, after all!
> >
> > Spells of a given level of a given spell list, surely! Wizards are total
> > physical wimps who cast spells, clerics are physically average with even
> > more spells; if they're to be balanced at all, it would stand to reason
> > that that cleric spells are, on the whole, weaker than wizard spells, no?
>
> Clerical magic is every bit as powerful as wizard magic in 3E; this
> old canard about wizard magic being "better" needs to be considered
> carefully. It's simply different.

How can wizards and clerics be said to be even remotely balanced, then?
You claim their magic is about equally powerful overall, but clerics
have more of it, and they have better HD, and better BAB, and better
saves.

> Wizard magic has more breadth, and does
> certain things (direct damage) more efficiently that clerical magic does,
> but clerical magic includes effects wizards can't create, either (great
> buffs, and check out some of those aligned domain spells!). The "potential"
> for more ultimate flexibility in one's magical options is all well and good
> and "powerful" for the wizard as a class, but that doesn't mean that
> (outside of direct damage spells) any given wizard spell is automatically
> "better" than that of a cleric spell of the same level,

I'm not saying that *any* given spell is *automatically* better. I'm
saying there are a few spells (true strike and fire shield among them)
that are more powerful than your average cleric spell of that level.

And even if they're equally powerful, they're yet another effect that
can be stacked: one could argue that divine power is better than fire
shield, but divine power and fire shield both is even better. And it's
something a by-the-book cleric will be able to do 1/day at best, while a
spontaneous domain cleric with access to fire shield can do it many
times per day.

I like the other effects of the rule enough that I'll probably use it
next chance I get, but I expect some balance issues will crop up. Domain
vs. domain balance, if nothing else: under spontaneous domain casting,
the domains with "rare" spells become even more attractive than they are
now, while those filled with standard Clr spells become less attractive,
even if they're good Clr spells.

> As far as domain lists are concerned, what wizard spells appear there
> are occasionally bumped a level up, but otherwise don't seem blatantly more
> powerful than anything a cleric could do with spells of that level on his
> own. Chain Lightning is the only potential offender here (in Air, 6th level
> for wizards, too- probably un-moved b/c many air spells are low utility),
> but it can do 11-66 (at 11th) or 20-120 (at 20th) to one target and, while
> 6th level Harm can do 110 (at 11th) or 200 (at 20th) to one target ... so
> it's not as if this ability is letting the cleric destroy things he could
> not already. The mass-minion tickling of Chain L's splash damage is minor
> (5d6 damage at 11th level; 10d6 splash by 20th), though this ability to
> clean up minions probably makes it about as useful as Harm again.

It's not the evocations I'd be most worried about, it's the wizard-only
combat buffs.


--
Jasin Zujovic
jzujovic@inet.hr

 

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On Wed, 1 Jun 2005 10:36:09 +0200, Jasin Zujovic <jzujovic@inet.hr> scribed
into the ether:

>In article <VC0ne.3060$s64.435@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
>mistermichael@earthlink.net says...
>
>> > > It's not clear to me that this fixes into the "balance" equation all
>> > > that much (particularly given that the non-clrs are usually at a higher
>> > > level than normal). Further, given that wizards and sorcerers (and the
>> > > relevant druids) can cast such spells repeatedly without a balance
>> > > concern, it doesn't seem like being able to cast a spell repeatedly would be one
>> > > for the cleric. Presumably, spells of a given level are balanced against one
>> > > another, after all!
>> >
>> > Spells of a given level of a given spell list, surely! Wizards are total
>> > physical wimps who cast spells, clerics are physically average with even
>> > more spells; if they're to be balanced at all, it would stand to reason
>> > that that cleric spells are, on the whole, weaker than wizard spells, no?
>>
>> Clerical magic is every bit as powerful as wizard magic in 3E; this
>> old canard about wizard magic being "better" needs to be considered
>> carefully. It's simply different.
>
>How can wizards and clerics be said to be even remotely balanced, then?
>You claim their magic is about equally powerful overall, but clerics
>have more of it, and they have better HD, and better BAB, and better
>saves.

Because DD damage, the thing they excell at, is one of the cornerstones of
the life of an adventurer.

I kind of disagree with MSB though. Cleric magic is a *lot* more
specialized, and so of course in the areas for which it is designed
(healing, buffs), it really shines. But Wizards are so much more flexible,
and the potential abilities that their spells can give cover a much larger
field. I think that wizards do indeed have more magical power on the whole.
Clerics being more durable and getting 1 extra spell vs an otherwise equal
wizard (which the wizard can duplicate by going with a specialist school)
because their magic is on the whole not quite as effective.

 

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Spinner <bprentic@uwo.ca> wrote:
>>> Clerical magic is every bit as powerful as wizard magic in 3E; this
>>> old canard about wizard magic being "better" needs to be considered
>>> carefully. It's simply different.
>>
>> How can wizards and clerics be said to be even remotely balanced,
>> then? You claim their magic is about equally powerful overall, but
>> clerics have more of it, and they have better HD, and better BAB, and
>> better saves.
>>
> I'm on the fence on this one ... I largely think wizard magic *is*
> more powerful all things considered.

In the sense that it tends to be 'more active', certainly.

That is, wizard magic focuses more on the 'hit the bad guy' end of
things.

Clerical magic is way more reactive, or indirect. You get the healing
and restoration stuff, you can protect against stuff pretty well, and
buff nicely.

> But I just wanted to point out that there is a sentiment (or has been
> in the past) on r.g.f.d that I agree with, ie., that clerics (and
> possibly druids too?) are actually *not* power balanced (!) ... rather
> they are given a slight but noticeable boost (ie., good atk, save,
> armor, spell abilities) because too few people *want* to play the
> class. IOW, it's an enticement.

More accurately, I think, is that these let the character *do*
something.

> Now IMO, a *big* reason for cleric avoidance is not only that they
> tend to be "support characters" (buffing and healing rather than
> personally laying down the smack) but also because they're so damn
> generic.

I can't say if this is a reason for them being avoided, but I agree that
they often come across fairly generic. They don't lend themselves as
well to adjustment.

Fighters get lots of feats, rogues get to pick from lots of skills,
wizards get spells that do lots of different things... clerics 'work
best' when they behave in a fairly consistent fashion (across
characters, I mean).

That's not to say that they *have* to be played that way, but there
seems to be a certain 'power path' to them. Well-worn, at that.

That's why I made the changes to them that I did.


Keith
--
Keith Davies "Trying to sway him from his current kook-
keith.davies@kjdavies.org rant with facts is like trying to create
keith.davies@gmail.com a vacuum in a room by pushing the air
http://www.kjdavies.org/ out with your hands." -- Matt Frisch

 

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"Jasin Zujovic" <jzujovic@inet.hr> wrote in message
news:MPG.1d078f1b27569ff2989683@news.iskon.hr...
> > Clerical magic is every bit as powerful as wizard magic in 3E;
this
> > old canard about wizard magic being "better" needs to be considered
> > carefully. It's simply different.
>
> How can wizards and clerics be said to be even remotely balanced, then?
> You claim their magic is about equally powerful overall, but clerics
> have more of it, and they have better HD, and better BAB, and better
saves.

It's my opinion that stock clerics and wizards aren't balanced,
precisely because clerics get a huge stockpile of much more available (ie;
entire cleric list) magic, as well as all their other perks. But they
aren't so unbalanced that one completely outshines the other in team
scenarios, or that some minor fixes can't straighten things out. IMC, I
force clerics to pick the prayers they're going to know (~2/level) and junk
the bonus domain slot, for instance.

> I'm not saying that *any* given spell is *automatically* better. I'm
> saying there are a few spells (true strike and fire shield among them)
> that are more powerful than your average cleric spell of that level.

You keep saying that, but we've shown rather decisively that True Strike
is not the powerful spell you claim it to be, and Divine Power is certainly
a fine competitor with Fire Shield (which is certainly less amazing than a
Righteous Might).

> And even if they're equally powerful, they're yet another effect that
> can be stacked: one could argue that divine power is better than fire
> shield, but divine power and fire shield both is even better. And it's
> something a by-the-book cleric will be able to do 1/day at best, while a
> spontaneous domain cleric with access to fire shield can do it many
> times per day.

So what? If he wants to blow his 4th, 5th, 6th... level spell slots on
these abilities instead of arguably more powerful ones, where's the beef?

-Michael

 

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"Michael Scott Brown" <mistermichael@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:%pAne.4181$s64.2314@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> "Jasin Zujovic" <jzujovic@inet.hr> wrote in message
> news:MPG.1d078f1b27569ff2989683@news.iskon.hr...

FWIW the only balancing I've done that nerfs Clerics is removing the "Zen
Archery" feat (stupid, stupid, STUPID! feat). This, combined with their
poor direct damage spells means that they aren't so hot at ranged attacks.

> > I'm not saying that *any* given spell is *automatically* better. I'm
> > saying there are a few spells (true strike and fire shield among them)
> > that are more powerful than your average cleric spell of that level.
>
> You keep saying that, but we've shown rather decisively that True
Strike
> is not the powerful spell you claim it to be,

Not really, you've only shown that it isn't automatically better like he
said. Putting one up before charging (with power attack turned up to the
wazoo) would be devastating. For combatants already in melee or capable of
making a full attack its not so good (as you showed).

True Strike is attractive enough that Quickening it is a favourite tactic
among our multiclassers.

> and Divine Power is certainly
> a fine competitor with Fire Shield (which is certainly less amazing than
a
> Righteous Might).

I don't think Fire Shield is all that great to be honest.

 

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"Symbol" <jb70@talk21.com> wrote in message
news:39adnUjEpdLtfgPfRVnyuQ@pipex.net...
> "Michael Scott Brown" <mistermichael@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> > You keep saying that, but we've shown rather decisively that True
Strike
> > is not the powerful spell you claim it to be,
>
> Not really, you've only shown that it isn't automatically better like he
> said. Putting one up before charging (with power attack turned up to the
> wazoo) would be devastating.

No, it would *not*. Your hero has now taken two rounds to charge,
instead of charging and full attacking. We did the math for you. Please pay
attention to it.

> True Strike is attractive enough that Quickening it is a favourite tactic
> among our multiclassers.

The advantage is completely illusory. Which means that it doesn't
bloody *matter* if they use it routinely!

-Michael

 

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Symbol wrote:
> > Inflict light wounds is good for up to 13 points of damage.
>
> IW offers a save and SR. The expected damage against the kind of foes a
> 20th level character will face is minimal. A complete waste.

And the melee attack must contend with full armor and damage
resistance. Wa-hoo. You keep failing to grasp that you are citing
_differences_ rather than blatant superiorities.
Whether or not IW is a complete waste or not depends on whether
the opponent has damage resistance or a difficult-to-penetrate (full)
armor class. Further, a 20th level and very wise cleric up against a
monster with poor Will still has good odds of doing full damage. The
save issue will reduce the expected damage another quarter or so. Your
mystical "+30" is *not really there*; and while the expected +15 is
better than ~7-10 _in some cases_ in others it is not (such as when DR
reduces the +15 to five or zero).
Like it or not, even your biggest power-attacked true strike, *on
average*, isn't all that much better than Inflict Wounds (which can be
used with a shield, and without spending a feat, to boot).

> > biggest, baddest power attack you can manage (burning all your BAB) gets you
> > a net of +20 to hit for +30 damage; against the foes at level 20 where you
> > have BAB 15 in the first place, common ACs are 30 or more, which means that
> > your expected to-hit is all of 50%
>
> Not likely. For starters your Cleric has no STR adjustment and that is
> impossible for a PA equipped combatant. No magical weapon either, no
> buffs in place. The numbers are so contrived they aren't even worth
> addressing, worse than even the gimp NPC Cleric in the DMG.

And we didn't include the magical armor and high dexterity scores
of the target, either. Please learn to do some *relevant* analysis
before you die. The issues you are citing cancel out. The only thing
including them does is show that strong people attacking clumsy people
hit more often - and vice versa. This is not news, and it doesn't help
at all to illustrate what changes TRUE STRIKE AND POWER ATTACK bring to
the table.

> > And at high levels you can have +6 to hit with every attack for TEN
> > ROUNDS for the same spell level. What's more powerful as a single spell
> > combined with power attack?
>
> Divine Favour offers a maximum +3 to hit and damage. RTFM.

Your first, buckwheat. My PhB and the online SRD both indicate

"Calling upon the strength and wisdom of a deity, you gain a +1 luck
bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls for every three caster levels
you have (at least +1, maximum +6). The bonus doesn't apply to spell
damage."

Now, *again*, I am compelled to ask you: Why do you have such a
ridiculous hardon for True Strike when Divine Favor is MORE POWERFUL
OVERALL? Of particular interest to the power attacking cleric should
be the part where Divine Favor offsets the power attack penalties on
_all_ your attacks rather than just the first one.
True Strike: +20/-5/-10 (at +30 to damage) {for one round}
Divine Favor: +15/+10/+5 (at +12 to damage) {for 10 rounds}


-Michael

 

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"Michael Scott Brown" <mistermichael@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:zLFne.5137$MI4.1037@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> "Symbol" <jb70@talk21.com> wrote in message
> news:39adnUjEpdLtfgPfRVnyuQ@pipex.net...
> > "Michael Scott Brown" <mistermichael@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> > > You keep saying that, but we've shown rather decisively that True
> Strike
> > > is not the powerful spell you claim it to be,
> >
> > Not really, you've only shown that it isn't automatically better like
he
> > said. Putting one up before charging (with power attack turned up to
the
> > wazoo) would be devastating.
>
> No, it would *not*. Your hero has now taken two rounds to charge,
> instead of charging and full attacking.

Why do you assume you could have reached your opponent in the first round?
Why do you assume you would necessarily want to? You're exposing yourself
to their attacks too and opening with a potentially devestating attack is
handy.

> We did the math for you. Please pay
> attention to it.

Your model is not comprehensive which is why two people have now told you
we agree that it isn't automatically better.

> > True Strike is attractive enough that Quickening it is a favourite
tactic
> > among our multiclassers.
>
> The advantage is completely illusory. Which means that it doesn't
> bloody *matter* if they use it routinely!

A quickened true strike with manoeuvres that allow you to only make one
attacks is not an illusory advantage. Pay attention.