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Alienist Oddity

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Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
June 2, 2005 4:26:07 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Wow... I was just looking through the Complete Arcane this evening, and
I noticed that somehow the Alienist went from being a Sorcerer's class
in 3.0 to a Wizard's class in 3.5. They require 8 ranks on Knowledge:
The Planes for qualification (which makes sense), which Sorcs don't get
as a class skill (so they could qualify by 16th level if they didn't
multiclass).

That kinda blows.

Any legal ways around it?

- Ron ^*^

More about : alienist oddity

Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
June 2, 2005 12:27:02 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Werebat wrote:
>
> Wow... I was just looking through the Complete Arcane this evening, and
> I noticed that somehow the Alienist went from being a Sorcerer's class
> in 3.0 to a Wizard's class in 3.5. They require 8 ranks on Knowledge:
> The Planes for qualification (which makes sense), which Sorcs don't get
> as a class skill (so they could qualify by 16th level if they didn't
> multiclass).
>
> That kinda blows.
>
> Any legal ways around it?

I think you need to re-read the alienist in Tome and Blood; it's *always*
required 8 ranks in Knowledge (the planes).

I *played* an alienist sorcerer in the first Third Edition game I ever . . .
played . . . but the DM waived that stricture for me.

Surely, also, a sorcerer could qualify at *13th* level.

--
Christopher Adams - Sydney, Australia
What part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you
understand?
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/mhacdebhandia/prestigec...
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/mhacdebhandia/templatel...

Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the
leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked,
and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to
danger. It works the same in any country.
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
June 2, 2005 12:27:03 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Christopher Adams wrote:

> Werebat wrote:
>
>>Wow... I was just looking through the Complete Arcane this evening, and
>>I noticed that somehow the Alienist went from being a Sorcerer's class
>>in 3.0 to a Wizard's class in 3.5. They require 8 ranks on Knowledge:
>>The Planes for qualification (which makes sense), which Sorcs don't get
>>as a class skill (so they could qualify by 16th level if they didn't
>>multiclass).
>>
>>That kinda blows.
>>
>>Any legal ways around it?
>
>
> I think you need to re-read the alienist in Tome and Blood; it's *always*
> required 8 ranks in Knowledge (the planes).

Curious... In "The Speaker in Dreams", The Blessed is a
Sorc6/Alienist2... Without any of the feats mentioned elsewhere in this
thread. At first I'd thought it was because the rules were different in
3.0 but I was wrong about that.

Did this (WotC Official) product just ignore the rules?

- Ron ^*^
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Anonymous
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June 2, 2005 2:39:44 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

In article <KTvne.5169$rb6.5025@lakeread07>, ranpoirier@cox.net says...

> Wow... I was just looking through the Complete Arcane this evening, and
> I noticed that somehow the Alienist went from being a Sorcerer's class
> in 3.0 to a Wizard's class in 3.5. They require 8 ranks on Knowledge:
> The Planes for qualification (which makes sense), which Sorcs don't get
> as a class skill (so they could qualify by 16th level if they didn't
> multiclass).

13th "already", actually.

> That kinda blows.
>
> Any legal ways around it?

A level of something with knowledge (planes) as a class skill also
works... bard, cleric, wizard? But that kinda blows for a sorcerer too.

But Cosmopolitan (from FRCS), Educated (from... FRCS?), Versatile (from
Rokugan) are all feats give that you could use to get knowledge (planes)
as a class skill.


--
Jasin Zujovic
jzujovic@inet.hr
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
June 2, 2005 2:39:45 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Jasin Zujovic wrote:
> In article <KTvne.5169$rb6.5025@lakeread07>, ranpoirier@cox.net says...
>
>
>>Wow... I was just looking through the Complete Arcane this evening, and
>>I noticed that somehow the Alienist went from being a Sorcerer's class
>>in 3.0 to a Wizard's class in 3.5. They require 8 ranks on Knowledge:
>>The Planes for qualification (which makes sense), which Sorcs don't get
>>as a class skill (so they could qualify by 16th level if they didn't
>>multiclass).
>
>
> 13th "already", actually.
>
>
>>That kinda blows.
>>
>>Any legal ways around it?
>
>
> A level of something with knowledge (planes) as a class skill also
> works... bard, cleric, wizard? But that kinda blows for a sorcerer too.
>
> But Cosmopolitan (from FRCS), Educated (from... FRCS?), Versatile (from
> Rokugan) are all feats give that you could use to get knowledge (planes)
> as a class skill.

Bah! The loss of a feat is almost as bad for a sorc. Cosmopolitan to
get K:tP as a class skill so they can qualify for a PrC that has K:tP as
a class skill?

And the only way to do it is to take a feat from a Twinkie the
MunchMaster handbook like FRCS?

Bah! Bah, I say!

- Ron ^*^
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
June 2, 2005 7:59:21 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Werebat <ranpoirier@cox.net> wrote in
news:FABne.5368$rb6.1065@lakeread07:
> Bah! The loss of a feat is almost as bad for a sorc. Cosmopolitan to
> get K:tP as a class skill so they can qualify for a PrC that has K:tP
> as a class skill?
>
> And the only way to do it is to take a feat from a Twinkie the
> MunchMaster handbook like FRCS?

There's a couple of options from Unearthed Arcana, too. Human paragon
levels, for instance...you only lose 1 caster level that way, and you get a
bonus feat slot at level two and +2 to any stat at 3. There's also a feat
called Skill Knowledge that makes any skill a class skill, but that again
has the problem of Sorcs running a little short on feats.
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
June 2, 2005 7:59:22 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Porcus the Wombat wrote:
> Werebat <ranpoirier@cox.net> wrote in
> news:FABne.5368$rb6.1065@lakeread07:
>
>>Bah! The loss of a feat is almost as bad for a sorc. Cosmopolitan to
>>get K:tP as a class skill so they can qualify for a PrC that has K:tP
>>as a class skill?
>>
>>And the only way to do it is to take a feat from a Twinkie the
>>MunchMaster handbook like FRCS?
>
>
> There's a couple of options from Unearthed Arcana, too. Human paragon
> levels, for instance...you only lose 1 caster level that way, and you get a
> bonus feat slot at level two and +2 to any stat at 3. There's also a feat
> called Skill Knowledge that makes any skill a class skill, but that again
> has the problem of Sorcs running a little short on feats.

It stinks, I say!

I like the image of the cloistered madman poring over tomes of forbidden
knowledge and eventually becoming an Alienist (obviously starting as a
Wizard), but I also like the idea of the Sorcerer whose power comes from
parts best left uncharted growing into an Alienist as well. The RAW
allows for one and makes life very tough on the other.

Compare the Wizard5/Alienist5 to the Sorcerer6/Alienist4 who had to blow
one of his feats getting a class skill that would later become a class
skill in his PrC.

- Ron ^*^
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
June 3, 2005 12:23:50 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Werebat <ranpoirier@cox.net> wrote:
>It stinks, I say!
>
>I like the image of the cloistered madman poring over tomes of forbidden
>knowledge and eventually becoming an Alienist (obviously starting as a
>Wizard), but I also like the idea of the Sorcerer whose power comes from
>parts best left uncharted growing into an Alienist as well. The RAW
>allows for one and makes life very tough on the other.

Doesn't Education (FRCS/PGtF) still make class skills of all Knowledge
Skills, as well as giving you a small bonus to one or two knowledge
skills (+2 distributed any way you want, IIRC)? That's still useful,
even after Alienist makes K:tP a class skill...


Donald
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
June 3, 2005 12:23:51 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Donald Tsang wrote:
> Werebat <ranpoirier@cox.net> wrote:
>
>>It stinks, I say!
>>
>>I like the image of the cloistered madman poring over tomes of forbidden
>>knowledge and eventually becoming an Alienist (obviously starting as a
>>Wizard), but I also like the idea of the Sorcerer whose power comes from
>>parts best left uncharted growing into an Alienist as well. The RAW
>>allows for one and makes life very tough on the other.
>
>
> Doesn't Education (FRCS/PGtF) still make class skills of all Knowledge
> Skills, as well as giving you a small bonus to one or two knowledge
> skills (+2 distributed any way you want, IIRC)? That's still useful,
> even after Alienist makes K:tP a class skill...

Alienist makes all knowledges (taken individually) class skills.

Although -- curious! I have checked the module and learned that The
Blessed (from The Speaker in Dreams) isn't actually an Alienist! She is
just a plain old 8th level Sorceress, who happens to be able to summon
Wystes. Oh, and she leads a cult called "Those Who Hear" who appear
able to write scrolls that summon Pseudonatural creatures, and consort
with gibbering mouthers, and babble on about the end of time and such.
Can't see why I got them all confused with Alienists.

Seems like there was some serious bending of the rules going on in that
adventure, although I can't say I disagree with much of it. Especially
with Lords of Madness now out, I think I'd like to see a revision of the
Alienist that lets one summon minor Far Realm Outsiders like Saltors, etc.

Also curious are the Kaorti from MMIII, who are usually Sorcerers and of
whom it is said in the text that they often take the Alienist PrC.
Clearly many of us are thinking the same thing -- that this PrC should
be opened up a bit for sorcs.

What would be the easiest houserule way to do this? Allow K:tP as a
class skill for sorcs? Perhaps give them the option of giving up K:A in
order to take it? Or, for the munchies, allowing them to give up Bluff?

- Ron ^*^
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
June 3, 2005 12:23:52 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Werebat" <ranpoirier@cox.net> wrote in message
news:o IKne.5417$rb6.2963@lakeread07...

> What would be the easiest houserule way to do this? Allow K:tP as a class
> skill for sorcs? Perhaps give them the option of giving up K:A in order
> to take it? Or, for the munchies, allowing them to give up Bluff?

Bluff is a nice skill, especially for classes that tend towards a high
Charisma. I would allow that in a heartbeat.

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
June 3, 2005 1:36:22 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Malachias Invictus wrote:
> "Werebat" <ranpoirier@cox.net> wrote in message
> news:o IKne.5417$rb6.2963@lakeread07...
>
>
>>What would be the easiest houserule way to do this? Allow K:tP as a class
>>skill for sorcs? Perhaps give them the option of giving up K:A in order
>>to take it? Or, for the munchies, allowing them to give up Bluff?
>
>
> Bluff is a nice skill, especially for classes that tend towards a high
> Charisma. I would allow that in a heartbeat.

Look closer at what happens to high level Alienists.

- Ron ^*^
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
June 3, 2005 6:12:37 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Suddenly, Werebat, drunk as a lemur, stumbled out of the darkness and
exclaimed:

> What would be the easiest houserule way to do this? Allow K:tP as a
> class skill for sorcs? Perhaps give them the option of giving up K:A in
> order to take it?

That's how I'd do it. You could even say that the ones who take K:A are
descended from dragons and the ones who take K:tP are descended from
outsiders

--
Billy Yank

Quinn: "I'm saying it's us, or them."
Murphy: "Well I choose them."
Q: "That's NOT an option!"
M: "Then you shouldn't have framed it as one."
-Sealab 2021

Billy Yank's Baldur's Gate Photo Portraits
http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze2xvw6/
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
June 3, 2005 6:12:38 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Billy Yank wrote:

> Suddenly, Werebat, drunk as a lemur, stumbled out of the darkness and
> exclaimed:
>
>
>>What would be the easiest houserule way to do this? Allow K:tP as a
>>class skill for sorcs? Perhaps give them the option of giving up K:A in
>>order to take it?
>
>
> That's how I'd do it. You could even say that the ones who take K:A are
> descended from dragons and the ones who take K:tP are descended from
> outsiders

Ah, but what about a Draconic human Sorcerer who is also descended from
Outsiders?

- Ron ^*^
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
June 3, 2005 6:36:50 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Suddenly, Werebat, drunk as a lemur, stumbled out of the darkness and
exclaimed:

>
>
> Billy Yank wrote:
>
>> Suddenly, Werebat, drunk as a lemur, stumbled out of the darkness and
>> exclaimed:
>>
>>
>>>What would be the easiest houserule way to do this? Allow K:tP as a
>>>class skill for sorcs? Perhaps give them the option of giving up K:A
>>>in order to take it?
>>
>>
>> That's how I'd do it. You could even say that the ones who take K:A
>> are descended from dragons and the ones who take K:tP are descended
>> from outsiders
>
> Ah, but what about a Draconic human Sorcerer who is also descended
> from Outsiders?
>

They get to check multiple boxes on the census form.

--
Billy Yank

Quinn: "I'm saying it's us, or them."
Murphy: "Well I choose them."
Q: "That's NOT an option!"
M: "Then you shouldn't have framed it as one."
-Sealab 2021

Billy Yank's Baldur's Gate Photo Portraits
http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze2xvw6/
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
June 4, 2005 12:48:15 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Werebat wrote:
> Wow... I was just looking through the Complete Arcane this evening, and
> I noticed that somehow the Alienist went from being a Sorcerer's class
> in 3.0 to a Wizard's class in 3.5. They require 8 ranks on Knowledge:
> The Planes for qualification (which makes sense), which Sorcs don't get
> as a class skill (so they could qualify by 16th level if they didn't
> multiclass).
>
> That kinda blows.
>
> Any legal ways around it?
>
> - Ron ^*^
>

Dude, you mean 13th level, don't you? At 13th your max ranks is 16, so
half of that is 8th. But really, just take a level of Bard and use
those skill points to get your ranks. It's a Charisma class like the
sorceror, so you won't miss much.
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
June 4, 2005 10:07:56 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Werebat wrote:
>
> What would be the easiest houserule way to do this? Allow
> K:tP as a class skill for sorcs?

This is my preferred option, and I've been doing this since September
2001, anyway. :D 

--
Nik
- remove vermin from email address to reply.
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
June 4, 2005 3:51:23 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

In article <hv9oe.523$qr.333@fed1read06>, Dormammu@thedarkdimension.com
says...

> > Wow... I was just looking through the Complete Arcane this evening, and
> > I noticed that somehow the Alienist went from being a Sorcerer's class
> > in 3.0 to a Wizard's class in 3.5. They require 8 ranks on Knowledge:
> > The Planes for qualification (which makes sense), which Sorcs don't get
> > as a class skill (so they could qualify by 16th level if they didn't
> > multiclass).
> >
> > That kinda blows.
> >
> > Any legal ways around it?
>
> Dude, you mean 13th level, don't you? At 13th your max ranks is 16, so
> half of that is 8th. But really, just take a level of Bard and use
> those skill points to get your ranks. It's a Charisma class like the
> sorceror, so you won't miss much.

He misses a level of sorc spellcasting and that's a pretty big hit for a
sorc.


--
Jasin Zujovic
jzujovic@inet.hr
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
June 5, 2005 5:29:36 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Jasin Zujovic wrote:

> In article <hv9oe.523$qr.333@fed1read06>, Dormammu@thedarkdimension.com
> says...
>
>
>>>Wow... I was just looking through the Complete Arcane this evening, and
>>>I noticed that somehow the Alienist went from being a Sorcerer's class
>>>in 3.0 to a Wizard's class in 3.5. They require 8 ranks on Knowledge:
>>>The Planes for qualification (which makes sense), which Sorcs don't get
>>>as a class skill (so they could qualify by 16th level if they didn't
>>>multiclass).
>>>
>>>That kinda blows.
>>>
>>>Any legal ways around it?
>>
>>Dude, you mean 13th level, don't you? At 13th your max ranks is 16, so
>>half of that is 8th. But really, just take a level of Bard and use
>>those skill points to get your ranks. It's a Charisma class like the
>>sorceror, so you won't miss much.
>
>
> He misses a level of sorc spellcasting and that's a pretty big hit for a
> sorc.

Another option is to be a Kaorti (Fiend Folio), who get Knowledge: The
Planes as a class skill for their two Outsider levels. Of course, then
you lose TWO spellcaster levels, plus the LA.

But this does explain how the Kaorti can qualify for the Alienist class
even when they are sorcerers. They just have to sink 3 extra skill
points into cross-classing it.

Any other low-hitdie and low-LA races with K:tP as a class skill?
Ideally you want something with 2 hit dice (the minimum) and 0 LA.
Getting stuck with racial hit dice means Outsider is probably the best.

- Ron ^*^
!