More Consideration

[AMD_Man]

I just realized that for the same price of an IWill XP333 and 512MB of high-quality PC2700 RAM, I can get a P4 1.6A, an ABit TH7-II and 256MB Samsung RDRAM. The second package sounds very tempting. How far do you think I'll be able to overclock that thing? If DDR will give me a better overclock then I'm willing to go for 256MB Crucial DDR RAM and an Asus P4B266 or Asus P4S333. What do you guys think? Fatburger, which mobo/RAM are you planning to buy for a P4 1.6A? Fugger, can I hear a brief review of these boards I've listed? I believe you've mentioned them before?

AMD technology + Intel technology = Intel/AMD Pentathlon IV; the <b>ULTIMATE</b> PC processor

 

[Raystonn]

How far do you think I'll be able to overclock that thing?

Most people are getting up to at least 2.5GHz with the 1.6A processors. Using the 3X RDRAM multiplier in BIOS you can get up to about 2.67GHz without having to worry about whether or not your motherboard has PC1066 DRCGs. That should be sufficient to max out your processor with air cooling.

-Raystonn


= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my employer. =

 

[eden]

Overclocking will be different from each person don't forget that. It's not that Fugger has reached 2.5GHZ that you will find it like a tree in a flat field. Each chip is different but I can say you would be able to boost by 400MHZ easily, and upwards. But do consider that for that performance of an OC of 600MHZ average, you would get the same or better performance with an XP 2000 with the IWILL considering you'll benefit of even faster RAM and bus than today's AXPs, so that's even more treasury!

Also I have just checked out RB Comp's pricing, how much is your NW 1.6 Retail? Give me full price with all parts in it and I'll compare. Also give me the AMD system too. BTW if you are considering DDR for P4, the Asus SIS645 333 is an excellent price lover that has the same price as the IWILL, at 195$ CDN!! That is one sweet P4 price. Oh and I see Ray is here....maybe there's some new P4 coming out or something...

--
The other day I heard an explosion from the other side of town.... It was a 486 booting up...<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Eden on 02/18/02 04:23 PM.</EM></FONT></P>

 

[Raystonn]

Overclocking will be different from each person don't forget that.

True, but I have yet to see a 1.6A that will not do 2.5GHz. A pattern has emerged.

do consider that for that performance of an OC of 600MHZ average, you would get the same or better performance with an XP 2000 with the IWILL considering you'll benefit of even faster RAM and bus than today's AXPs, so that's even more treasury!

What kind of memory bandwidth do you get from an IWILL with the best DDR SDRAM currently available?

-Raystonn


= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my employer. =

 

[FUGGER]

The P4 1.6A and TH7-II are a good combo, very stable at high overclocks. With stock HSF and a random 1.6A You can hit 2.4Ghz easy. 50% or 800Mhz overclock very possible with stock HSF and PSU.

Im hitting 2.6Ghz with my 1.6A

The P4B266 is a good board with nice options, but its just not as strong as the RDR based motherboard.

Proving once again that <A HREF="http://www.zombo.com" target="_new">anything is possible</A>.

 

[eden]

Well from what he said and from what I read of the IWill it's 333MHZ DDR and can go up to 400MHZ if willing. The best PC2700 which AMD_man is desperatly looking for (have you found one yet?) can come from OCZ or Crucial, with OCZ having PC2700 at Cas 2.5. I don't see any PC2700 from Crucial yet, why doesn't their site show? Also have you even found any PC2700 at CAS 2?
OCZ's pricing is neater than Crucial also. BTW if you feel like buying some powerful RAM which can be downclocked easily to your setting, get OCZ PC3000 for 169$ by 256MB, they have Heat-Spreaders too! Then PC2700 should be easy to attain by downclocking and having an already low heat!

--
The other day I heard an explosion from the other side of town.... It was a 486 booting up...

 

[AMD_Man]

Yes, I have found PC2700 in Canada it's it priced extremely high <A HREF="http://www.ncix.com/Canada/productdetail.cfm?sku=7078" target="_new">here</A>! That's crazy! $233.81 CDN for 256MB PC2700! That's $467.62 for 512MB RAM. Samsung RDRAM can be had for significantly cheaper than that with enough money to get a P4 too! Really, I'm starting to see no point in paying so much just to squeeze more performance out of my 1.33GHz Athlon. Forget that! I'm moving to a P4 with PC2100 Crucial RAM or Samsung RDRAM at those prices! Then I can overclock that thing to ~2.5GHz and beat the fastest AXP available right now in most tasks.

AMD technology + Intel technology = Intel/AMD Pentathlon IV; the <b>ULTIMATE</b> PC processor

 

[Raystonn]

Well from what he said and from what I read of the IWill it's 333MHZ DDR and can go up to 400MHZ if willing.

So that would be 3.2GB/s of memory bandwidth running on a 200MHz external clock (and thus 200MHz FSB for Athlons), memory at DDR400 speeds. Athlons cap at 2.1GB/s of memory bandwidth at stock speeds right? How much memory bandwidth would a typical overclocked Athlon gain?

Just for comparison, a P4 1.6A running at 2.6GHz would be running off an external clock of 163MHz. The processor would have an FSB of 652MHz. The RDRAM would be running off (the external clock at) a 3X multiplier at 489MHz. This would allow 3.912GB/s of memory bandwidth on a non-saturated FSB. (The non-saturated FSB would allow more bandwidth efficiency. You would achieve bandwidth closer to the maximum theoretical value of the memory.)

I am not trying to start a war here, but would you explain your position that you would get better performance from a 1.67GHz Athlon (XP 2000)?

-Raystonn


= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my employer. =

 

[AMD_Man]

So that would be 3.2GB/s of memory bandwidth running on a 200MHz external clock (and thus 200MHz FSB for Athlons), memory at DDR400 speeds. Athlons cap at 2.1GB/s of memory bandwidth at stock speeds right? How much memory bandwidth would a typical overclocked Athlon gain?

You see, that's not just 400MHz memory but also a 400MHz FSB. So with an Iwill XP333, you could lower the multiplier of the Athlon (XP) and raise the FSB to 166MHz or 200MHz (333MHz or 400MHz, DDR).

AMD technology + Intel technology = Intel/AMD Pentathlon IV; the <b>ULTIMATE</b> PC processor

 

[Raystonn]

You see, that's not just 400MHz memory but also a 400MHz FSB.

No, the DDR400 memory operates off a 200MHz clock. As far as I know Athlons do not have a quad-pumped or dual-pumped FSB. The processor's FSB operates at the external clock you set in BIOS. Thus you would be running at a 200MHz FSB. What is the FSB on a stock Athlon? 133MHz? So at that FSB speed you would have 1.5 times the normal 2.1GB/s of bandwidth available. This happens to come to about 3.2GB/s, which matches the bandwidth delivered by the memory.

My question is: How does a 1.67GHz Athlon (XP 2000) with 3.2GB/s of memory bandwidth on a 3.2GB/s FSB outperform a 2.6GHz Pentium 4 (Northwood) with 3.912 GB/s of memory bandwidth on a 5.2GB/s FSB? Even if you pump up the Athlon's clockspeed using multipliers, I still do not see it outperforming the P4.

-Raystonn


= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my employer. =

 

[AMD_Man]

No, the DDR400 memory operates off a 200MHz clock.

True, true, but it runs with the same effective bandwidth of 400MHz SDRAM, which is why people call it 400MHz DDR RAM, sometimes. Who said it would beat it? It would be close however. The Athlon doesn't need as much bandwidth as the P4 to beat it but in any case, there is no denying that even with a 200MHz (400MHz effective FSB), the Athlon XP is no match for the P4's price-performance at this point in time.

AMD technology + Intel technology = Intel/AMD Pentathlon IV; the <b>ULTIMATE</b> PC processor

 

[pr497]

Forget that! I'm moving to a P4 with PC2100 Crucial RAM or Samsung RDRAM at those prices! Then I can overclock that thing to ~2.5GHz and beat the fastest AXP available right now in most tasks.

is that an AMD fan converting over to intel i hear?...
j/k
anyways...if i were you...i wouldnt be too optimistic with overclocking the P4 1.6A 800+ mhz....just be happy if you can get it to break 2 ghz...either way....have fun with your new toys....and let us know what your final decision is.

<A HREF="http://gamershq.madonion.com/compare2k1.shtml?2649487" target="_new">P4 NW + DDR</A> = <font color=blue>Not Bad</font color=blue>

 

[lhgpoobaa]

i saw an online review yesterday that was a bit different. regardless of what mobo they used or what ram they put in it their 1.8A didnt want to go above 2.19...

i think the website was overclockers.com , but im not 100% sure.

even so thats still almost 400mhz. still significant

Overclocked athlon 1200C @ 8.5 x 166FSB + PC2700 = GOOD!

 

[ath0mps0]

No, the DDR400 memory operates off a 200MHz clock. As far as I know Athlons do not have a quad-pumped or dual-pumped FSB. The processor's FSB operates at the external clock you set in BIOS. Thus you would be running at a 200MHz FSB. What is the FSB on a stock Athlon? 133MHz?

AMD started the multi-rate per clock FAD with the original K7 Athlon! Athlons have always been DDR! 133MHz DDR FSB(266 effective) matches them with DDR SDRAM and has the same effect as matching a P4 100MHz QDR (400 effective) with PC800 SDRAM - near perfect synchronicity. By simply lowering the clock multiplier, the CPU FSB can be taken to the limit of the chipset, memory and PCI & AGP cards.

P4's rely much more heavily on memory bandwidth than Athlons. The P4's super deep pipeline has to recompute much more frequently than an Athlon due to branch mis-predictions and therefore needs to access main memory more often. This is made back up - in some cases, especially with SSE2 optimized code - by the extreme GHz speed of the processor and when the pipeline wins the prediction game and doesn't have to recompute.

The Athlon has a shorter pipeline - less recomputes - and deeper cache reserves, so requires less memory bandwith for equivalent performance in most activities. The Athlon's current Achilles’ heel is the .18 micron process. The onboard cache has difficulty with extreme high speeds. The Tbred will be at .13 micron (P4a's current) which will allow lower power - less heat - and higher clocks.

The problem with the P4 is that as the GHz rises, so does the reliance on memory bandwidth. If you asynchronously underclock the memory, you are strangling the blood to the brain. OTOH, with the Athlon, memory speeds are still fast enough to remain sychronous and the Athlon responds to a 66MHz increase in speed in the same way a P4 responds to a 100-125Mhz increase. Eventually AMD will have to optimize their CPUs for super high clocks, but I think they will have learned from Intel's mistakes (thanks Intel).

I thought a thought, but the thought I thought wasn't the thought I thought I had thought.

 

[AMD_Man]

is that an AMD fan converting over to intel i hear?...
j/k
anyways...if i were you...i wouldnt be too optimistic with overclocking the P4 1.6A 800+ mhz....just be happy if you can get it to break 2 ghz...either way....have fun with your new toys....and let us know what your final decision is.

I've never been an AMD-only fan. I like what is fast and cheap. Right now, I see the P4 1.6A as just that. Even if I don't get it to 2.5GHz, 2.2GHz is not unreasonable, and then I'll have the performance of a $1000CDN CPU in a $250CDN CPU! I know you haven't had the best luck with your Northy, but aren't you using a P4S333? The Abit TH7-II is the best overclocker for the P4. Along with some high-quality Samsung RDRAM, I should reach some pretty high speeds.

AMD technology + Intel technology = Intel/AMD Pentathlon IV; the <b>ULTIMATE</b> PC processor

 

[eden]

AMD_Man before you make any possible mistake, I'd like you to reconsider your thought about the PC2700!
Where the hell do those guys think they come up with 240$ for 256MBRAM!! Where I could buy them, OCZ PC2700 is only 149$, double that, it's roughly the same price as 2*256 RDRAM( RAY before you assume anything, Canada has different prices and if you want proof of what I am talking about, go here: <A HREF="http://www.shoprbc.com" target="_new">http://www.shoprbc.com</A> )
As for Ray's question, I said that the AXP 2000 is an extremly resistant processor in the war between the 2.2GHZ and it. Here's a site with proof of how matching all the same hardware but different mobo and its respective CPU can show how results yeild. I'd assume with RDRAM the test coulda given more, but right now DDR and RDRAM from my POV in benchs are often near each other, given the fact RDRAM is 16bit. Go here: <A HREF="http://www.lostcircuits.com/cpu/northwood" target="_new">http://www.lostcircuits.com/cpu/northwood</A>
Either the AXP is some powerhouse or the Northwood is being pummeled sometimes by 10% eh? Regardless, any FPU intensive app would desire an AXP to work fast. However AMD_Man, I'd think more of a 1.8A and OC it, that'd reach 2.3 and over thus breaking the low performance/price ratio and now you would be talking about value and money saved. As with any overclock, you're doing this at your own risk, so whatever happens is your responsibility. I can see your optimism in technology, I truly do, we are both 15 and you've already got so much in your head!
So it's up to you, but before you thrash the price you saw for the RAM, please do a quote online on RB Comp, as it could be your last resort. And also, you're saying you're not buying an AXP so you are staying therefore with your Tbird if you chose to buy the AMD Iwill package? If so you will save money fer sure, but I would recommend going to newer heights, or even waiting for a Tbred and see how it OCs or simply how high it can go.

EDIT: Hmm after re-reading your previous post, I see what are you are going at in value. But AMD_Man, if you look at benchs, you'd still find it that the AthlonXP would do better in value and the fact it still competes in almost all benchs, if you have read my link and know that you should go DDR in both systems for a cost-effective P4(SiS645). Yes paying 250$ and getting the value of 1000$ is great, but where do you go to reach that if it doesn't work? Or even if it does, it is still not the best performance from what the AMD system could've given. Right now the best thing I'd recommend, is to see how FatBurger's P4 1.6A overclocks, I tend to trust him more than Fugger's ultimately biased posts. FB will tell us how his OC goes, and it should give you an insight once and for all wether or not to go for it without any risk.


--
For the first time, Hookers are hooked on Phonics!!<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Eden on 02/18/02 08:59 PM.</EM></FONT></P>

 

[eden]

Very insightful and highly informative post there! I just learned a bit more of the P4!
But you are right about the pipeline, I guess in order to compensate its lenght, it needs major bandwidth and more RDRAM power. It makes sense and if only Intel started the Willy with much more, maybe the P4 would've really began on the right foot...
And yes eventually AMD has to use more MHZ power, that's the only way the IPC will benefit, since 66MHZ increments is just not today's hype anymore! When boosting by 100MHZ or even 200MHZ, the AXP can really shine. I guess the Tbred will help, followed by Barton with SOI so this should help the heat and power even more, by then it can probably reach 3 GHZ with proper cooling IMO. Then Hammer but this "hammer" will be too strong to handle high speeds, so the PR will do the job from there. It is worthy to note it will have a similar heat spreading like the P4, with Heat Spreaders, which should help AMD do more to cope with high temperatures.

--
For the first time, Hookers are hooked on Phonics!!

 

[juin]

You seen to defend more intel that AMD

Do you will change your useur name soon? Intel MAN

http://service.madonion.com/servlet/Index?pageid=/orb/projectcompare&projectType=6&projectId=2310900

 

[eden]

Lol I too find it weird when AMD_man becomes more Intel user than AMD! But then his change of username will make him rather different to us and not the old "Amdman" anymore! And his rank is already respectable and quite big.

--
For the first time, Hookers are hooked on Phonics!!

 

[AMD_Man]

Lol I too find it weird when AMD_man becomes more Intel user than AMD! But then his change of username will make him rather different to us and not the old "Amdman" anymore! And his rank is already respectable and quite big.

lol, yes, AMD_Man was a bad name to start with, but I didn't know that back then, . Well, my sig is there to show you that relatively neutral when it comes to processors.

AMD technology + Intel technology = Intel/AMD Pentathlon IV; the <b>ULTIMATE</b> PC processor

 

[pr497]

which supports your statement....cheap and fast

<A HREF="http://gamershq.madonion.com/compare2k1.shtml?2649487" target="_new">P4 NW + DDR</A> = <font color=blue>Not Bad</font color=blue>

 

[juin]

Lol I too find it weird when AMD_man becomes more Intel user than AMD! But then his change of username will make him rather different to us and not the old "Amdman" anymore! And his rank is already respectable and quite big

I have also start to like AMD a bit more with time but i still dont like there ""let upgrade older tech"" and how jerry sander/hertor ruiz seen to like destroy any thing that intel do.

http://service.madonion.com/servlet/Index?pageid=/orb/projectcompare&projectType=6&projectId=2310900

 

[lhgpoobaa]

heres an extreemly cynical thought i just had... for which im probably gonna be flamed for.

the massive overclocks achievable with the 1.6A and 1.8A are just getting back the performance you should have had in the first place

*puts on fire retardant suit*
gee im feelin evil today

Overclocked athlon 1200C @ 8.5 x 166FSB + PC2700 = GOOD!

 

[dhlucke]

Go with whatever is going to kick the most ass. The only thing I would be worried about is all the hype surrounding these amazing overclocks. Nobody has posted a link with a good sample of 1.6a's overclocking to the 2.5 Ghz range. Maybe I just missed it though.

I'm waiting to see how Fatburger does. I'd probably recommend you do the same thing. If you're in no hurry just wait till the T-bred arrives and decide then.

<font color=red>God</font color=red> <font color=blue>Bless</font color=blue> <font color=red>America!</font color=red>

 

[tlaughrey]

You can get Corsair CAS2 PC2700 at Googlegear. It's also listed at Newegg, but is out of stock there. At googlegear, it's $135 for a 256MB stick.

<i>I made you look. But I can't make you see.</i>