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What happened to my temps?

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Anonymous
a b à CPUs
February 21, 2002 8:09:58 PM

When I first got my beast working I set it up on the work bench outside of the case to verify it was all working. My temps were 41C idle and 47C loaded. I thought this was great. So I installed it all into the case and first thing I noticed was that the idle temp is now 50-ish and loaded goes up to 58C. When I installed it I did not need to undo the HSF, so it should be in the same position as when it was outside the case.

I added a whole slew of fans to the case and everything went down by 3C. So what happened?

AMD 2000+
Giga GA-7DX
Millennium Thermal Solutions: Glaciator II HSF
Artic Silver II
Enermax EG465P-VE(FC)
Gainward GEForce3 TI-200
WD 80GB drive...

I am planning to remove it all from the case and see if the temp goes back to what it was originally.

TIA


First time I powered up my 'puter my wife asked "Where's that swarm of bees?"

More about : happened temps

February 22, 2002 8:52:59 AM

Your case limits the airflow compared to having the board outside hence it can't shed as much heat so the temps go up...
how powerful are your HSF & case fans ???

---If at first you dont succeed... get a bigger hammer... that'll teach it !!!---
February 22, 2002 9:12:52 AM

Case restricts airflow, and if you have 10 case fans they probably cancel eachother out, put one intake and one outtake fan and watch the temps fall.

"The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark"
No Overclock+stock hsf=GOOD!
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February 22, 2002 10:07:19 AM

temps will naturally go up a bit inside a case... u have the cpu, graphics and hard drives all making heat.
thats what CASEFANS are for. to vent all that heat. installing just one rear casefan will do the trick.


Overclocked athlon 1200C @ 8.5 x 166FSB + PC2700 = GOOD! :smile:
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
February 22, 2002 12:24:37 PM

add more fans until it hovers above the ground, just kidding. add a fan at the back and 1 fan in front to suck air into the case
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
February 22, 2002 2:45:26 PM

To all:

1) My PS has a nice large fan sucking the air into it.
2) When I first noticed this happening I added both a front and rear fan.
3) Since I have two empty bays I added two of those hard drive coolers that have the fans on them to blow more air in to the case.

All these added to about a 3C drop I mentioned in the original post.

But more importantly if I leave the covers off and take my floor fan and blow into it there is still no (or no drop) drop in temp.

This is my theory, maybe you guys would know for sure:

1) I now brought my computer back to work, so I can spread it out on the original work bench. I will tear it apart later today and see if the temps go back.
2) I read from some other posts that people have removed their HSF and noticed that their paste is gone. Maybe I have a simialr situation and too much has oozed and now their is too little between the die and HSF. Thus causing poor thermal transfer into the HSF.

First time I powered up my 'puter my wife asked "Where's that swarm of bees?"
February 22, 2002 2:51:30 PM

Quote:
1) I now brought my computer back to work, so I can spread it out on the original work bench. I will tear it apart later today and see if the temps go back.
2) I read from some other posts that people have removed their HSF and noticed that their paste is gone. Maybe I have a simialr situation and too much has oozed and now their is too little between the die and HSF. Thus causing poor thermal transfer into the HSF.



Your forgetting the back, the motherboard's back is against the case causing temps to be warmer than out on a bench.

If it isnt locking up, dont worry about it!

"The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark"
No Overclock+stock hsf=GOOD!
February 22, 2002 4:04:36 PM

2 words: Room temperature

"I now brought my computer back to work..."

The temperature of a room can make a huge difference in the temperature your computer runs at.

Also, it is possible that while moving the computer the hsf moved slightly or something stupid like that?
February 22, 2002 5:57:24 PM

Quote:
1) My PS has a nice large fan sucking the air into it.

I thought it should exhaust hot air that has been generated when powering instead of sucking air into it(?).
Quote:
2) When I first noticed this happening I added both a front and rear fan.

Are they one intake at front and another exhaust on back of the case? It's no use if both of them suck air in and not one taking air out.

:smile: Good or Bad have no meaning at all, depends on what your point of view is.
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
February 22, 2002 8:01:49 PM

Doesn't AMD recommend power supplies to have two fans? One in the back of the case blowing air out, and one on the inside sucking air into it? My Enermax manual says AMD recommends that they should. Like I said "it has a nice large fan sucking hot air into it" (so it can be exhausted out the back.)

And I maybe a new poster here, but I have been building PCs for many a year. I ain't no newbie, and sorry if my posts have been a little too vague... My front fans are blowing in to the case and my rear fan is blowing out. I would assume this would be obvious to most builders, but I maybe wrong here. I have nice airflow thru the case. If all my fans blew into my case, wouldn't that just build up pressure in it and my 'puter would start floating like a hot balloon?

First time I powered up my 'puter my wife asked "Where's that swarm of bees?"
February 22, 2002 8:16:26 PM

Quote:
And I maybe a new poster here, but I have been building PCs for many a year. I ain't no newbie, and sorry if my posts have been a little too vague... My front fans are blowing in to the case and my rear fan is blowing out. I would assume this would be obvious to most builders, but I maybe wrong here. I have nice airflow thru the case. If all my fans blew into my case, wouldn't that just build up pressure in it and my 'puter would start floating like a hot balloon?



Then why are you worried about your temps(which sound great btw) just because it was lower outside your case in a different place.


If it isnt locking up, dont worry about it, but, if you wanna tear down your pc again to try in vain to lower the temps, go for it.

"The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark"
No Overclock+stock hsf=GOOD!
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
February 22, 2002 8:59:20 PM

I do not feel that trying to troubleshoot over a +10C increase in temp is in vain.

If it idles around 50-52C and I seen it go up to 58C and no look ups, so you are right I shouldn't worry. But there are other concerns, like when I am at work (or on a business trip) and my kids start playing and the temp goes even higher and they ignore the warnings that would be displayed...
And in the summer when it is nice and toasty in my un-air-conditioned room...40C room temp will not cool too good.

First time I powered up my 'puter my wife asked "Where's that swarm of bees?"
February 22, 2002 10:42:13 PM

To diagnose heat problems you need to keep track of 3 temperatures, room temperature, case temperature, and CPU temperature. They are all related. Typically room temperature might be 23 degrees, case 30 degrees, CPU 45 degrees. Note the deltas, differences in temperature. If you move the same computer into an 18 degree room then all temperatures typically go down by 5 (23-18=5 in my example) degrees. A warmer room they all go up. Take a motherboard out the case and you elimate the delta between room and case temperatures (because there isn't a case). There will be some difference because the motherboard itself will warm up but the delta may go down to 2 degrees instead of 7. The CPU temperature will go down because the CPU fan is drawing room temperature air instead of case temperature air.

To improve CPU cooling you can do 3 things. 1) You can lower room temperature (usually not very practical). 2) You can decrease case temperature by adding fans but the lower limit on this is the room temperature. You can't go lower than that. The extreme example of doing this is what you have tried, opening the case and blowing a powerful fan into system. 3) Use a better CPU HSF.

You should monitor your case temperature. Figure out how much higher than room temperature it really is. Open the case and blow air into it. What's the delta now? If it's the same then you are already getting optimal case cooling. If there's a big difference then you have something to work on.

What's left? Well the only thing left would be your CPU HSF. HSFs vary in the effectiveness. Some of the really good ones might have the CPU only 10-20 degrees above the case temperature. A really bad one might leave the CPU at 40 degrees or more above case temperature.

Do more testing and pay attention to your differences, deltas. They will tell you what's wrong.


<b>We are all beta testers!</b>
February 23, 2002 1:23:09 AM

YES

you have the idea! if it doesnt lock up under full load in a hot room its FINE.

i too have to live with no aircon... and there is a linear relationship between room temp and CPU temp.

i.e. 18C room = 42C full load cpu
24C room = 48C
28C room = 52C

and another point... you SHOULD NOT have "gobs of thermal paste"

when i put on my heatsink i put the bare minimum on with a razor blade. why?
the thermal paste is ONLY there to fill the microscopic gaps between the CPU surface and the surface of the heatsink. nothing more!
using too much actualy acts as an insulator, as the heat conductivity of the paste, while good, is much lower than that of the heatsink itself.

Overclocked athlon 1200C @ 8.5 x 166FSB + PC2700 = GOOD! :smile:
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
February 23, 2002 2:32:04 AM

I don't believe I ever mentioned I had "gobs of thermal paste"

I too used a minimum amount using a razor blade. Took quite a few passes without either scrapping too much off (bare) in spots, or too much was left.

This was my first time using paste, so I was careful as heck to do it right. Maybe I did, and maybe I didn't. But it ran a week below 50C while outside the case (and attached to the MB shelf for the case). Once I put it all together and brought it home then I noticed the (I feel) steep increase for just being in the case.

Now earlier Tiberius13 previously pondered the same thing I asked. Maybe the HSF moved during the transport home? Or maybe the weight of the spring clip caused too much paste to ooze out from between the HSF and die. This HSF is really heavy. This is why I brought it back to work today and laid it all out again. Now running in the 40s again. So it didn't move, the case just can't escape the exhuast well enough for the HSF. But because of reasons I don't want to get into I must use this case and can not purchase another.

The case is a little on the small side, and I would hate to have to drastically cut a fan hole (breather hole) into the top of the case. Maybe this will have to be a last resort in the hot summer months ahead as I don't see how a better HSF will help if it works great out in the open, but while in the case the case can't expell the heat well enough for the HSF.

I now know it is the case's fault because while laid out I can place a cardboard box next to the MB roughly where the top of the case would be. I can feel the HSF blowing onto the box (out of the side of the HS) and just sitting idle the temp slowly went up to 47C (from 43).

Are there any good HSF out there that will blow the air UP instead of down? This way all the heat will go (almost) directly in to fan for the PS. (the fan that is sucking air into the PS)

First time I powered up my 'puter my wife asked "Where's that swarm of bees?"
February 23, 2002 3:14:39 AM

errr yeah...
just about most of em
unscrew or unclip the fan... turn it around, then put it back on. bingo!

i dunno why your worrying so much about temps though.
P.S. what program are u using to monitor them?

Overclocked athlon 1200C @ 8.5 x 166FSB + PC2700 = GOOD! :smile:
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
February 23, 2002 5:23:51 AM

I realize flipping the fan would cause it to flow in reverse. I am just curious if there would be any advantages to a unit that was designed to flow that way versus modifying one that wasn't designed to flow that way.

My only concern about my temps is money, of course. I would like to protect my investment. I only build me up a box every couple years even though I help friends and co-workers all the time. But also since it is nice and cool these days and I am already getting close to 60C then what would happen in a few months when it gets really hot in this room of mine...I can always go to Fry's and pick up a portable AC unit and pump it in the case...

As far as monitoring when I was playing at the office today I was simply letting it sit idling in the BIOS and watching the temps from there while I did my little box test I mentioned earlier. Once in WinME to load the CPU playing a few games and such I have been using Motherboard Monitor and Speedfan. All three seem to be reading the same temps (all from the same source, right?). I haven't had a chance to use any external monitors.

But anyways, now that I know my case is causing back pressure to my HSF and not something silly like a HSF that was sitting cockeyed (or backwards) I can either live with it 'til summer and see how things go or do some cosmetic surgery to the top of the case now and get it over with before I put my old PC to rest.

First time I powered up my 'puter my wife asked "Where's that swarm of bees?"
February 23, 2002 6:03:23 AM

its possible.

i believe the majority of HSF's are set up so the fans blow down... pushing cold denser air onto the fins/pins. however the alpha pal 8045 reccomends that the fan be mounted as "suck".

another factor to bear in mind, currently only one for two motherboards (brand new ones) support reading the temp from the CPU itself.
ALL the rest take it from the diode below the socket.

this is inheriently prone to errors. its know that ASUS motherboards typically read hotter than other brands. i saw this when i switched from asus to iwill. 8C lower - same everything except motherboard.

so it may be that your probe is closer to the chip, or even touching it... thus giving you higher readings.
what i find useful is actually determining the temp at which lockups occur. on my particular combo its only 52C, regardless of overclocking state or voltage.

one final comment.
back to the below socket temp probe.
the temperature it reports is also dependent on the airflow UNDER the socket. the have been reported instances of people switching from air cooling to water cooling, yet getting higher reported temps. why? water cooling uses a clipped on water block with hoses, thus there is NO fan to circulate air, so while the CPU is undoubtedly cooler, the lack of a fan means that no air curculates and heat builds up around the temp probe. this can also be seen (to a minor degree) when the fan flow is reversed.

something for u to do...
find the program TOAST (for amd cpu's only)
run it, and put a room heater on. see how your system goes in a hot hot room typical of your summer temps.


Overclocked athlon 1200C @ 8.5 x 166FSB + PC2700 = GOOD! :smile:
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
February 23, 2002 6:33:55 AM

My GigaByte has the probe that touches the CPU. It is not mounted down on to the board. I read a bunch of other posts detailing how inaccurate all the MBs are and I can understand that. Too bad there isn't a way to calibrate the thing. I work in a high tech industry and know any temperature (or anything else) is only as accurate as the measuring device.

The PAL8045 was my first choice, the one that mounts to the MB directly right? But according to their site it is not compatible with my MB.

I just got toast, but haven't really used it yet. I didn't get any documentation with it. I ran it for a few minutes, a little window opened with a flaming guy in it right? I wasn't sure what else to do, so I closed it to play again later. Now my box is at the office, so I can't do anything over the weekend.

On Wednesday I should be alone in the office so I can crank up the heat to 100F and watch it burn, baby.

First time I powered up my 'puter my wife asked "Where's that swarm of bees?"
February 23, 2002 9:11:29 AM

Mr Prez,
I think in an earlier post you asked if their was a device to redirect airflow. If you go to almost any case mod website, they sell such items. They are simply "J" shaped funnels that attach the HSF. And the air can be directed out of a blowhole. The funnel is extendable/retractable.
This would eliminate alot of the hot air the cpu pumps into the case.
Type "case mod" in your favorite search engine and ya should find plenty

Benchmarks are like sex, everybody loves doing it, everybody thinks they are good at it.
February 23, 2002 9:40:17 AM

you could somehow mount a probe so it thouches the core....

and yes, those monster 80mm HSF's do have problems with certain poorly designed motherboards.

to use toast just make sure not much else is running then run it
and just watch the temps for as long as u like.
it just gets very hot, hotter than any other application can make your CPU. great for worst case stress testing and overclocking stability testing. if your computer is still going after a couple of hours of Toast you will have no problems at all!


Overclocked athlon 1200C @ 8.5 x 166FSB + PC2700 = GOOD! :smile:
February 23, 2002 12:19:11 PM

Quote:
If it idles around 50-52C and I seen it go up to 58C and no look ups, so you are right I shouldn't worry. But there are other concerns, like when I am at work (or on a business trip) and my kids start playing and the temp goes even higher and they ignore the warnings that would be displayed...


Download toast, run that for 30 mins, if it does not lock up after that, you can feel completely safe about it for all time.

"The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark"
No Overclock+stock hsf=GOOD!
February 23, 2002 12:22:12 PM

Quote:
Or maybe the weight of the spring clip caused too much paste to ooze out from between the HSF and die.



This at least is physically impossible, the microcracks cannot exert pressure on the paste, and even if every bit of paste were squeezed out, what would be left would be better than if the paste were there.(Total flush hs base contact to the core)

"The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark"
No Overclock+stock hsf=GOOD!
February 23, 2002 12:53:11 PM

The best way to run Toast is solo. Close all other apps and shutdown everything in the system tray (except your monitoring software). This will allow Toast to utilize the CPU nearly 100%. This will produce maximum CPU temperatures.

I suggest you leave you system on for 2 hours before you do testing with Toast. This will bring everything in your system to normal operating temperature.

<b>We are all beta testers!</b>
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
February 23, 2002 4:03:53 PM

I would like to thank everyone for the suggestions.
Toast will have to wait at least until Monday as I do not want to go to the office to put my box back together.

First time I powered up my 'puter my wife asked "Where's that swarm of bees?"
!