grappling smite

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Can I use Smite Whatever to deal damage to a pinned opponent?
If yes, can I use it to deal subdual damage?

Silveraxe.

 

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Silveraxe wrote:
> Can I use Smite Whatever to deal damage to a pinned opponent?
> If yes, can I use it to deal subdual damage?


Not with an opposed grapple check. Smite Evil from the paladin
class in the 3.5 SRD says "may attempt to smite evil with a
normal melee attack". Through a lot of blood, sweat, tears,
and help from WOTC, we determined that grapple checks are not
attack rolls.

You need to make a normal melee attack, with a weapon or an
unarmed strike.

A good question lies within however:

If you are a paladin, and you do not have improved unarmed
strike, and you punch an evil Orc, and use your smite ability, is the
smite damage lethal or subdual?

>From a "taste" perspective, I would say that you are not in
control of the damage so much as unleashing it, and really could
not make it subdual damage.

I don't see anything in the rules that really pushes it one way
or the other. I checked for smite in both the 3.0 and 3.5 and
did a quick google search. I also looked at the WOTC site.

Anyone?

 

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decalod85 <decalod85@comcast.net> wrote:
>If you are a paladin, and you do not have improved unarmed
>strike, and you punch an evil Orc, and use your smite ability, is the
>smite damage lethal or subdual?

I'd guess it works the same as Sneak Attack: the bonus damage is of the
same type as the damage from the strike, and just adds to that
damage: in this case, (bludgeoning) subdual.

Donald

 

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Silveraxe wrote:
> Can I use Smite Whatever to deal damage to a pinned opponent?
> If yes, can I use it to deal subdual damage?
>
> Silveraxe.

Warning: The following is not based on any rules, but rather on what
*I* would rule:

I would allow it. Thinking about it, Smite Whatever is extra power
that some god grants you, right? A god of good could easily be
interested in allowing his servants to avoid killing without necessity,
if said servant believes it's necessary, whether motivated by mercy, or
the desire to have the victim stand trial, or the opportunity to
provide information, or even to have a chance at redemption.

A god of evil, on the other hand, might still allow it if his servant
desires to capture the opponent either to be used as bait in a trap, or
for further torture before dispatching him.

-Pat

 

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pluther wrote:
> Silveraxe wrote:
> > Can I use Smite Whatever to deal damage to a pinned opponent?
> > If yes, can I use it to deal subdual damage?
> >
> > Silveraxe.
>
> Warning: The following is not based on any rules, but rather on what
> *I* would rule:
>
> I would allow it. Thinking about it, Smite Whatever is extra power
> that some god grants you, right? A god of good could easily be
> interested in allowing his servants to avoid killing without necessity,
> if said servant believes it's necessary, whether motivated by mercy, or
> the desire to have the victim stand trial, or the opportunity to
> provide information, or even to have a chance at redemption.

That was the "fluff" perspective, and I agree.

>From a "crunch" POV, I would also allow it. I've long since given up
hope of finding any sort of coherence in the grappling rules.

Does (3.5) Haste grant extra grapple checks? How does grappling and the
Monk's flurry ability interact? What about grappling and combat feats
like Power Attack or Combat Expertise? Besides Strength and BAB, what
kinds of attack bonuses apply to grappling? What happens if a mounted
combatant is involved in a grapple? What are the effects of various
status effects (stunned or blind, for example) on grappling?

I don't really know the answer to any of these questions. I don't think
anyone does (please note: having a strong opinion is not the same thing
as knowing).

But hey, coming up with answers to these questions as they arise is one
of the jobs of a DM. So far, the lack of rules clarity hasn't proven to
be a significant problem.

Laszlo

 

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Donald Tsang wrote:
> decalod85 <decalod85@comcast.net> wrote:
> >If you are a paladin, and you do not have improved unarmed
> >strike, and you punch an evil Orc, and use your smite ability, is the
> >smite damage lethal or subdual?
>
> I'd guess it works the same as Sneak Attack: the bonus damage is of the
> same type as the damage from the strike, and just adds to that
> damage: in this case, (bludgeoning) subdual.

The rules don't lean in any particular direction, but I was thinking of
it more like fire damage from a flaming sword. This is extra damage
that
obviously cannot be subdual damage.

It seems cooler if it is a blast of energy, as opposed to just the
paladin
hitting harder.

 

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pluther wrote:
>> I would allow it. Thinking about it, Smite Whatever is extra power
> that some god grants you, right? A god of good could easily be
> interested in allowing his servants to avoid killing without necessity,
> if said servant believes it's necessary, whether motivated by mercy, or
> the desire to have the victim stand trial, or the opportunity to
> provide information, or even to have a chance at redemption.

It's not that I hate your idea, but it goes at odds with what is
considered a "melee attack" and what is considered a "grapple check".

The problem is, according the the books and clarified by WOTC, that a
grapple check is not an attack, so you can't apply bonuses that apply
to attacks. Stunning fist is a good example of this, and Smite Evil is
another...

See the grappling thread...

 

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laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu wrote:
<snip>
> Does (3.5) Haste grant extra grapple checks?

Yes; for those checks that can be used in place of an attack, when
making a full attack action in a grapple.

> How does grappling and the Monk's flurry ability interact?

You'd get an extra attack, and all attacks would be made at -2. You
can't use TWFing, but in 3.5 flurry isn't a replacement for TWFing.
Grapple checks made in place of attacks should suffer the same penalties
that would apply to all attacks made in a round.

> What about grappling and combat feats like Power Attack or Combat
> Expertise?

You could use AYO to gain various the bonuses and penalties. Any
grapple checks made in place of an attack would suffer all the penalties
(as they apply to all attacks in the round), but would not gain any
bonus damage from PA.
PA also can't be used with light weapons, so it's natural weapon
strikes only that benifit in a grapple.

> Besides Strength and BAB, what kinds of attack bonuses apply to
> grappling?

Size and the bonus from Improved Grapple. Also PClass abilites or
non-core feats may specifically apply. Nothing that applies a bonus to
attacks would apply to grapple checks.

> What happens if a mounted combatant is involved in a grapple?

You must either dismount the rider before grappling (or use the
"pull opponent into your space" ability of Improved Grab for applicable
monsters), or climb aboard with him as a ride check as you complete the
"move into his space" step.
Generally, a mounted warrior should be able to use his ride skill
and saddle bonuses in place of a grapple check to avoid being grappled
(house rule).

The other option for the attacker would be to grapple the mount.
Neither option automatically grapples both rider and mount, but as you
share their space regarless, you can still make attacks against them,
and you may try to add them to the grapple.
When you only have one of them grappled, you still loose your Dex
bonus against the other, even though you share their sapce.

> What are the effects of various status effects (stunned or blind, for
> example) on grappling?

You always know were your opponent is, and suffer no miss chance
due to concealment in a grapple. You still loose your Dex bonus against
attacks from the creature you grapple as applicable.

Touch attacks automatically succeed, as you've already grabbed them
(house rule).

> I don't really know the answer to any of these questions. I don't think
> anyone does (please note: having a strong opinion is not the same thing
> as knowing).

Most seem pretty logical. The trickier ones involve the use of
trips, throws, and selective application of grapple/attach/climb rules
for creatures of variant sizes.

> But hey, coming up with answers to these questions as they arise is one
> of the jobs of a DM. So far, the lack of rules clarity hasn't proven to
> be a significant problem.

Grappling probably needed another full page of rules to cover the
more imaginative uses of it, but it's long enough as it is for something
that doesn't turn up all that often in most games (aside from Druids in
bear form, or the odd grappler specialist).

--
tussock

Aspie at work, sorry in advance.