Use magic device and staves

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I don't remember this ever bein discussed here and it's something quite
interesting...

Yesterday I created a Brd13 with a staff of fire and UMD +28 (+16 ranks,
+6 Cha, +3 Skill Focus, +3 circlet of persuasion).

On a roll of 10, he can emulate a 18th-level sorcerer, making him better
at penetrating SR with spells fired from the staff than an true sorcerer
of equal level. Of course, he could go as low as 9th-level, but also as
high as 28th(!).

He could also emulate a Charisma of up to 35 (and as low a 14, but on
any roll that gives him less than 22, he can just use his real
modifier).


--
Jasin Zujovic
jzujovic@inet.hr

 

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The UMD skill allows you to 'activate' items. It does not allow you to
use a skill, class feature, class ability, racial ability etc.

You do not have to skill, ability or feature in question.

Think of it this way. A rogue using UMD is like an untutored child
clicking away at a well installed and set up computer. Through some
experience and some blind luck, she could learn to activate some
programs in Windows, and perhaps even use them reliably. However,
unless she spends the time and effort to actually learn how programming
works, she will not be able to write even a simple program on her own.
Nor can she optimize the computers performance, since she knows nothing
about RAM, clock speed, file fragmentation etc.

Items are like the programs -- they are meant to be used. A rogue can
'trigger' the items, but does not actually know how they work. In the
case of the staff, the rogue can trigger the staff -- click 'start',
then press the botton with the big blue 'e' -- but he still has a
caster level of zero. The game effect is that the rogue can use the
staff as a 0-level caster. ie. the staff uses the staff's caster level
and minimum DC.

Similar questions arise in emulate turn undead feature. A rogue can
emulate the ability to turn undead, so an item that says something like
'... in the hands of a character with the turn undead ability...' will
function for the rogue. However, a rogue cannot actually channel
positive energy, so an item that says '... by channelling a turning
attempt into the item, you can...' is, to the rogue, useless.

Finally, a CE rogue cannot use emulate alignment ability to fool
detection spells, or negate the extra damage from a holy avenger or a
paladin's smite, as that is not 'using' an item. He 'can' activate the
holy avenger as a LG paladin, open a door that only LG characters can
open (actually, this depends on how the door is designed), or wield the
Mace of St. Cuthbert if he isn't afraid of His divine wrath.

Finally, you must keep in mind that in D&D, 0 +X = X, but N/A +X = N/A.
For example, the Druids Vestment:

>Druids Vestment: This light garment is worn over normal clothing or armor. Most
>such vestments are green, embroidered with plant or animal motifs. When this item
>is worn by a character with the wild shape ability, the character can use that ability
>one additional time each day.

grants 'one additional wildshape attempt each day'. For a rogue with no
wildshape ability, this vestment does not grant him the wildshape
ability, even if he succeeds at his UMD check.

 

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"Jasin Zujovic" <jzujovic@inet.hr> wrote in message
news:MPG.1d10c8ab191ff6b49896b2@news.iskon.hr...
> I don't remember this ever bein discussed here and it's something quite
> interesting...
>
> Yesterday I created a Brd13 with a staff of fire and UMD +28 (+16 ranks,
> +6 Cha, +3 Skill Focus, +3 circlet of persuasion).
>
> On a roll of 10, he can emulate a 18th-level sorcerer, making him better
> at penetrating SR with spells fired from the staff than an true sorcerer
> of equal level. Of course, he could go as low as 9th-level, but also as
> high as 28th(!).
>
> He could also emulate a Charisma of up to 35 (and as low a 14, but on
> any roll that gives him less than 22, he can just use his real
> modifier).

UMD does not allow you to use the caster level of a sorcerer which is what
you are doing when using your own instead of the staffs. Likewise with
charisma.

The ability to emulate those features is only useful if the item requires
them for use.

 

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In article <XuGdnRFOqp9YKzvfRVnysA@pipex.net>, jb70@talk21.com says...

> > I don't remember this ever bein discussed here and it's something quite
> > interesting...
> >
> > Yesterday I created a Brd13 with a staff of fire and UMD +28 (+16 ranks,
> > +6 Cha, +3 Skill Focus, +3 circlet of persuasion).
> >
> > On a roll of 10, he can emulate a 18th-level sorcerer, making him better
> > at penetrating SR with spells fired from the staff than an true sorcerer
> > of equal level. Of course, he could go as low as 9th-level, but also as
> > high as 28th(!).
> >
> > He could also emulate a Charisma of up to 35 (and as low a 14, but on
> > any roll that gives him less than 22, he can just use his real
> > modifier).
>
> UMD does not allow you to use the caster level of a sorcerer which is what
> you are doing when using your own instead of the staffs. Likewise with
> charisma.

Use magic device lets you activate an item as if you had a different
ability scores, race, class/level, alignment...

This is using UMD to activate a staff as if you were a sorcerer of Xth
level with Cha Y, no?

> The ability to emulate those features is only useful if the item requires
> them for use.

Well, I guess you could argue that staves don't *require* high ability
scores and spellcasting levels, just benefit from them... but you could
use the same reasoning to argue that a bard with UMD couldn't use a holy
avenger, since you're not *required* to be a paladin, you just benefit
from being one.


--
Jasin Zujovic
jzujovic@inet.hr

 

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"Jasin Zujovic" <jzujovic@inet.hr> wrote in message
news:MPG.1d10e231e2b320169896b5@news.iskon.hr...
> In article <XuGdnRFOqp9YKzvfRVnysA@pipex.net>, jb70@talk21.com says...
>
> > > I don't remember this ever bein discussed here and it's something
quite
> > > interesting...
> > >
> > > Yesterday I created a Brd13 with a staff of fire and UMD +28 (+16
ranks,
> > > +6 Cha, +3 Skill Focus, +3 circlet of persuasion).
> > >
> > > On a roll of 10, he can emulate a 18th-level sorcerer, making him
better
> > > at penetrating SR with spells fired from the staff than an true
sorcerer
> > > of equal level. Of course, he could go as low as 9th-level, but also
as
> > > high as 28th(!).
> > >
> > > He could also emulate a Charisma of up to 35 (and as low a 14, but
on
> > > any roll that gives him less than 22, he can just use his real
> > > modifier).
> >
> > UMD does not allow you to use the caster level of a sorcerer which is
what
> > you are doing when using your own instead of the staffs. Likewise with
> > charisma.
>
> Use magic device lets you activate an item as if you had a different
> ability scores, race, class/level, alignment...

Yes but "This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of
another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class
feature."

> This is using UMD to activate a staff as if you were a sorcerer of Xth
> level with Cha Y, no?

Staves allow you to use your own caster level but you are actually using
your class ability, it isn't something you are activating via the staff.

 

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In article <GZSdna3peZ9JVzvfRVnyhg@pipex.net>, jb70@talk21.com says...

> > Use magic device lets you activate an item as if you had a different
> > ability scores, race, class/level, alignment...
>
> Yes but "This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of
> another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class
> feature."

And you're activating the staff as if you had 15th-level sorcerer
spellcasting and Cha 27 (or whatever), no? Using the class feature would
be actually casting spells like a 15th-level sorcerer.

> > This is using UMD to activate a staff as if you were a sorcerer of Xth
> > level with Cha Y, no?
>
> Staves allow you to use your own caster level but you are actually using
> your class ability, it isn't something you are activating via the staff.

That's a mighty wide definition of "use", I think...

Can you think of any example of an item that makes the "emulate class
feature" use of UMD useful? I.e. an item that requires a class feature,
but not the "use" of the class feature?


--
Jasin Zujovic
jzujovic@inet.hr

 

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Jasin Zujovic wrote:
>
> In article <GZSdna3peZ9JVzvfRVnyhg@pipex.net>, jb70@talk21.com says...
>
> > > Use magic device lets you activate an item as if you had a different
> > > ability scores, race, class/level, alignment...
> >
> > Yes but "This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of
> > another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class
> > feature."
>
> And you're activating the staff as if you had 15th-level sorcerer
> spellcasting and Cha 27 (or whatever), no? Using the class feature would
> be actually casting spells like a 15th-level sorcerer.

No. Read the skill description carefully. It's quite
clear that you can emulate having the *minimum* ability
score required, not that you can emulate having *any
given* ability score. "If you already have a high
enough score in the appropriate ability, you don't need
to make this check." Likewise, when emulating a class
feature, you look at the minimum class level required
to activate the item--not the minimum class level
required to achieve a certain result (like, say, a 15d6
Fireball from a Staff of Fire). Since the *minimum*
class level required to activate a Staff of Fire is
(for example) Sor1, that's what you emulate--not
Sor15. (In fact, you actually use the "Use a Wand"
mechanic for staves, rather than "Emulate a Class
Feature.")

Sorry, Jasin. REALLY nice try, but I'd have to rule
against you on this one.

-Bluto

 

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"Jasin Zujovic" <jzujovic@inet.hr> wrote in message
news:MPG.1d10fa019f46f2c09896b6@news.iskon.hr...
> In article <GZSdna3peZ9JVzvfRVnyhg@pipex.net>, jb70@talk21.com says...
>
> > > Use magic device lets you activate an item as if you had a different
> > > ability scores, race, class/level, alignment...
> >
> > Yes but "This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of
> > another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that
class
> > feature."
>
> And you're activating the staff as if you had 15th-level sorcerer
> spellcasting and Cha 27 (or whatever), no?

Yes but still not the critical bit IMO.

> Using the class feature would
> be actually casting spells like a 15th-level sorcerer.

Caster level is as much a class feature as the possession of actual spell
casting slots and the description of staves makes it quite clear that you
are using your own instead of the staves.

> > > This is using UMD to activate a staff as if you were a sorcerer of
Xth
> > > level with Cha Y, no?
> >
> > Staves allow you to use your own caster level but you are actually
using
> > your class ability, it isn't something you are activating via the
staff.
>
> That's a mighty wide definition of "use", I think...
>
> Can you think of any example of an item that makes the "emulate class
> feature" use of UMD useful? I.e. an item that requires a class feature,
> but not the "use" of the class feature?

I can't think of any that require a class feature off the top of my head.
Except for Druid's Vestments and that is another potential can of worms.

 

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In article <1118235986.275102.299800@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
wuyanei@excite.com says...

> The UMD skill allows you to 'activate' items. It does not allow you to
> use a skill, class feature, class ability, racial ability etc.
>
> You do not have to skill, ability or feature in question.

Right.

> Think of it this way. A rogue using UMD is like an untutored child
> clicking away at a well installed and set up computer. Through some
> experience and some blind luck, she could learn to activate some
> programs in Windows, and perhaps even use them reliably. However,
> unless she spends the time and effort to actually learn how programming
> works, she will not be able to write even a simple program on her own.
> Nor can she optimize the computers performance, since she knows nothing
> about RAM, clock speed, file fragmentation etc.
>
> Items are like the programs -- they are meant to be used. A rogue can
> 'trigger' the items, but does not actually know how they work. In the
> case of the staff, the rogue can trigger the staff -- click 'start',
> then press the botton with the big blue 'e' -- but he still has a
> caster level of zero.

Right. He *has* a caster level of zero.

However, I see no convincing reason that he cannot activate the item *as
if he had* a caster level larger than zero. After all, that's what the
skill does: "Emulate a Class Feature: Sometimes you need to use a class
feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in
the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20."

Under my interpretation, the bard needs Sor/Wiz spellcasting to activate
a Sor/Wiz staff. His effective level in the emulated class equals his
Use Magic Device check result minus 20.

Where are you getting that it's possible for an UMD-user to emulate a 0-
level caster, but not a 17th-level caster?

> Finally, you must keep in mind that in D&D, 0 +X = X, but N/A +X = N/A.

Well, in D&D, there's no such rules term as N/A, so I don't think you
can really claim the above.

> For example, the Druids Vestment:
>
> >Druids Vestment: This light garment is worn over normal clothing or armor. Most
> >such vestments are green, embroidered with plant or animal motifs. When this item
> >is worn by a character with the wild shape ability, the character can use that ability
> >one additional time each day.
>
> grants 'one additional wildshape attempt each day'. For a rogue with no
> wildshape ability, this vestment does not grant him the wildshape
> ability, even if he succeeds at his UMD check.

Why wouldn't it?

Again, "Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic
item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals
your Use Magic Device check result minus 20."

You need wildshape to activate druid's vestments. In this case, the
rogue's effective level in the druid class equals his Use Magic Device
check result minus 20.

BTW, under your interpretation, what is the "emulate a class feature"
use of UMD good for? Using your logic (as I understand it), no use of it
should be allowed, since while you can *emulate* whatever feature is
needed, you don't actually *have* it, you aren't *using* it, you cannot
*do* it, so you can't use the item.


--
Jasin Zujovic
jzujovic@inet.hr

 

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In article <42A750BE.32B65922@comcast.net>, monarchy@comcast.net says...

> > > > Use magic device lets you activate an item as if you had a different
> > > > ability scores, race, class/level, alignment...
> > >
> > > Yes but "This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of
> > > another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class
> > > feature."
> >
> > And you're activating the staff as if you had 15th-level sorcerer
> > spellcasting and Cha 27 (or whatever), no? Using the class feature would
> > be actually casting spells like a 15th-level sorcerer.
>
> No. Read the skill description carefully. It's quite
> clear that you can emulate having the *minimum* ability
> score required, not that you can emulate having *any
> given* ability score. "If you already have a high
> enough score in the appropriate ability, you don't need
> to make this check."

"You don't *need* to"...

> Likewise, when emulating a class
> feature, you look at the minimum class level required
> to activate the item--

Where does it say this?

> Sorry, Jasin. REALLY nice try, but I'd have to rule
> against you on this one.

Because bards and rogues who sink a 24 into Cha are so overpowered that
they don't need this trick...?

But fair enough. However, I think that this is very much a domain of DM
discretion and rules interpretation. It's nowhere nearly clear from the
PHB that this won't work (nor that it will, to be perfectly honest, but
IMO my interpretation is reading less into the text so that's what I'd
go with).


--
Jasin Zujovic
jzujovic@inet.hr

 

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In article <tfOdncbzKaOmkDXfRVnyvg@pipex.net>, jb70@talk21.com says...

> > > The only reason there's any question about it at all is
> > > that 3.5 changed the way staves work. So while I think
> > > you make a good argument, I doubt very much there was
> > > any intent on the part of the game designers to allow
> > > what you're suggesting.
> >
> > That's true. However, I think my interpretation doesn't in any way
> > contradict the rules as written,
>
> I disagree, obviously, but it might be an interesting question to send to
> Wotc or the Sage for clarrification if you are so inclined. Given the ever
> expanding list of items (and campaign custom items) it could be important.

I've sent the question to sageadvice@paizo.com. I'll post the reply when
I get it.


--
Jasin Zujovic
jzujovic@inet.hr

 

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Jasin Zujovic wrote:
> In article <tfOdncbzKaOmkDXfRVnyvg@pipex.net>, jb70@talk21.com says...
>> I disagree, obviously, but it might be an interesting question to
>> send to Wotc or the Sage for clarrification if you are so inclined.
>> Given the ever expanding list of items (and campaign custom items)
>> it could be important.
>
> I've sent the question to sageadvice@paizo.com. I'll post the reply
> when
> I get it.

I'd like to take a bet now that the answer will confuse this issue more than
it is already.

--
Reginald Blue
"I have always wished that my computer would be as easy to use as my
telephone. My wish has come true. I no longer know how to use my
telephone."
- Bjarne Stroustrup (originator of C++) [quoted at the 2003
International Conference on Intelligent User Interfaces]

 

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Well, the SRD says:

>Staffs use the wielder's ability score and relevant feats to set the DC for saves
>against their spells. Unlike with other sorts of magic items, the wielder can use
>his caster level when activating the power of a staff if it's higher than the caster
>level of the staff.

By the rules as written, you can (and must) use the rogue's ability
scores (NOT an emulated ability score -- a high UMD sheck does NOT make
you super-smart for one round), no matter what the ability score is.

As a house rule, I rule that you (not only a rogue -- anyone) can
always cast a spell at the minimum DC of the spell, just like with a
wand. If you have a higher ability score, you can cast at higher DC.

For example, a if Lydda (Wis 11, Cha 19) uses UMD to trigger a heal
spell from a Staff of Life. Heal is a 7th level spell, which requires
at least Wis 17 to cast. So I would rule that the minimum DC is 10 + 7
(SpLv) + 3 (Wis) = 20. OTOH, if Jozan (Wiz 19, Cha 16) cast the same
spell from the same staff, he would cast the spell with DC 21.

 

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WuYanei wrote:
> Items are like the programs -- they are meant to be used. A rogue can
> 'trigger' the items, but does not actually know how they work. In the
> case of the staff, the rogue can trigger the staff -- click 'start',
> then press the botton with the big blue 'e' -- but he still has a
> caster level of zero. The game effect is that the rogue can use the
> staff as a 0-level caster. ie. the staff uses the staff's caster level
> and minimum DC.

But does the Rogue get the stat (CHA, WIS or INT) bonus to
save DC for those spells he casts from the Staff? Or does he
function as if he had a stat of 10? Even if his stat is
actually lower than 10?

--
Peter Knutsen
sagatafl.org