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Whats out there for 64-bit?

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March 20, 2002 10:26:57 AM

ALright, after "talking" things over in the other thread. I was wandering where the 64-bit market stands. From what I understand. There is Sun, NEC, alpha and Intel in the game (and probably some other obscure ones I forgot).
All the high-end 64-bit chips cost more than most of us will see in our life-time. The Intanium can come in around 2,500 dollars (according to price watch)

So if Intel has the low end stuff, the others have the high-end stuff. Where does the Hammer fall in this group? Clearly its a low-end offering, meant to transition people from 32 to 64 bits. But performance wise, it probably wont compete with McKinnly. So where is the market and/or positioning for Hammer?
The answer lay in how well it can perform compared to Intels offering. If it can get even close ( within 15%) Id say it has a shot at the low-end market. Its backward compatibility is nice, but im sure IT managers will only take so much performance loss before Sledge isnt worth it anymore.
Lets try and avoid the FUD please. Im just wanting an informative debate on the 64-bit market.



Benchmarks are like sex, everybody loves doing it, everybody thinks they are good at it.

More about : whats bit

March 20, 2002 10:55:13 AM

Where I can see it doing well, is in the Mid range server market 2-8 procs (Database work), or the high-end work station market, i.e. graphics work, CAD, CFD, etc. I.e. more than 4GB of memory may well be required due to vast data volumes, but not you don't need a huge number of processors.
March 20, 2002 2:45:15 PM

I'd think that Hammer would basically create another lower segment for the market. Companies like mine that currently have a couple of 4-way Xeon boxes or something similar, might look into a 4-way SledgeHammer system instead (wait, ClawHammer is 1-4, right?).
Anyhow, that'll broaden the market enough for Sun, Alpha and/or NEC to move up into 128-bit in the near future, if they felt it was worth the R&D involved.

<font color=orange>Quarter</font color=orange> <font color=blue>Pounder</font color=blue> <font color=orange>Inside</font color=orange>
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March 20, 2002 2:50:04 PM

I agree 8procstooslow and FatBurger. I don't see the SledgeHammer as being something more than for really low-end 64-bit systems. I think it is meant more to compete against Itanium than to compete against things like Alpha.

Of course, there will be fanatics that will build SledgeHammer 64 CPU clusters or something crazy like that. Heh heh. In such a case like that, it would be interesting to see how it really competes against the big-boys.

As for ClawHammer, I see that as meant purely to get home users used to the idea of 64-bit hardware and software. In the end, it might even do as much harm as it does good to the situation as most home users aren't educated enough about computers to understand what the difference between 32-bit and 64-bit even is and they start demanding the insane.

Hopefully though, in the end, it will all just even out and ClawHammer will simply be nothing more than the best home-use CPU that AMD produces and have no major impact on the 32-bit vs. 64-bit world.

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March 20, 2002 3:04:10 PM

Clawhammer is for 1 and 2 processor systems. Sledge is for 2, 4 and 8 processor systems.

Clawhammer is basically a replacement for Athlon at the mid to high end workstation and desktop and notebook market. Sledge is for enterprise servers.

Mark-

When all else fails, throw your computer out the window!!!
March 20, 2002 3:39:16 PM

Da. This I know. I said nothing contrary to this.

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March 20, 2002 5:24:03 PM

When SME's need some computing power with numerous redundancies at an affordable cost, the Hammers (both claw and slege) will look extremely appealing. Basically people who are using smalltime Xeon servers will look at the hammers twice before considering any other 64bit solution.

When people use a bunch of servers each for a single purpose (one notes server, one external mail server, one web server, one oracle server etc.) with a full backup machine for each primary machine, the low cost of the hammers in comparison to the rest will look irresistable. Some of these servers won't need extreme power so the high end stuff won't be needed, but the level of power provided by the hammer will be comforting.

Also, there is the thing about not needing to go out and replace all you're software at once with the invoice giving you a heart attack.

<font color=red><b>You must <i>be</i> the change you wish to see in the world</b></font color=red>
March 20, 2002 6:24:53 PM

Sorry Slvr. I replied to the wrong post. It was meant for Burgermeister who wasn't sure whether Claw was for 1-2 or 12-4 CPU systems.

Mark-

When all else fails, throw your computer out the window!!!
March 20, 2002 6:53:54 PM

Yeah, thanks. I couldn't remember for sure.

<font color=orange>Quarter</font color=orange> <font color=blue>Pounder</font color=blue> <font color=orange>Inside</font color=orange>
Don't step in the sarcasm!
March 21, 2002 3:07:57 AM

Thanks guys, that clears some things up. So basically its for people that have an average size database, and dont the muscle the Sun and Alpha solutions provide.
I can see where a small cluster would do the trick. I too am concerned there wil be some serious misunderstanding about 64-bit computing among the Hammer users. I cant wait to hear what the Best Buy and Circuit City salespeople have to say about Hammer... should be entertaining.

Benchmarks are like sex, everybody loves doing it, everybody thinks they are good at it.
March 21, 2002 7:20:29 AM

I think we waited too long for 64 bit system. It too a few year for 16 bit system to jump from 32 bit. slver phoenix do you want to stay in 32 bit age? I dont think none of us would. I would like to see 64 bit or even 128 bit. I agree with Amd Make a 64 bit. At least they have some balls doing it.
March 21, 2002 11:43:58 AM

The hammer is an interesting product. Does AMD have "balls" to produce it? Maybe. That would make an interesting name for their next core:

Introducing the AMD " Verica Grandes"

or something like that..

Benchmarks are like sex, everybody loves doing it, everybody thinks they are good at it.
March 21, 2002 2:37:51 PM

Quote:
I cant wait to hear what the Best Buy and Circuit City salespeople have to say about Hammer... should be entertaining.


I agree, or IA64, when it hits stores eventually. They have a hard enough time explaining why a 1.3 P4 with 128MB of PC100 is worth buying.

<font color=blue>If you don't buy Windows, then the terrorists have already won!</font color=blue> - Microsoft
March 21, 2002 3:11:52 PM

I count 7 people in this thread alone that seem to care. If you have nothing better to do than crap on this thread, I suggest you find another that might interest you more.

<font color=blue>If you don't buy Windows, then the terrorists have already won!</font color=blue> - Microsoft
March 21, 2002 3:40:26 PM

i suggest you take some prozak. :p 

It's interesting depending on what your talking about.

the topic is "whats out there for 64-bit?" ... if you read it it's asking a question! There arn't anything and won't be for a long time. So the thread is pointless is it not? thats like talking about flying cars. Interesting to talk about, but if your looking to find one when there arn't any, then it's pointless. Like going to a car dealership and asking if they have any flying cars in yet. The only 64bit cpu is a non x86-32bit cpu . My PDA has a MIPS-64bit cpu from NEC. God, Mac's g4 uses 128bit cpu's!

Now lets make it interesting. Shall we! :) 

Mac uses 128bit while Intel and AMD is STILL at 32bit. talk about behind the times. Or is mac simply ahead of it's time?

If your talking about it and not asking a question then someone needs to change the subject! :) 

<A HREF="http://www.anandtech.com/mysystemrig.html?id=9933" target="_new"> My Rig </A>
March 21, 2002 4:10:13 PM

Quote:
The only 64bit cpu is a non x86-32bit cpu .


The question did NOT state that only x86 CPUs would be considered. Texas_techie knows very well that non-x86 CPUs would be included. He was posting this to see what Itaniums competition is, not what the Athlon's competition is.

<font color=blue>If you don't buy Windows, then the terrorists have already won!</font color=blue> - Microsoft
March 21, 2002 4:16:50 PM

?

where did you get that. i never even implied that. his question was "whats out there for 64bit". well macs are at 128bit.

now look at my question. Mac's are out with a 128bit G4 cpu and Intel and AMD are still at 32bit's.

if your talking about bits then lets make it interesting.
what is your opinion on that.

I have a friend that has a G4 laptop. It runs unix, windows, and MAC OS X very fast! And you can switch between all 3 very fast and very easily!

<A HREF="http://www.anandtech.com/mysystemrig.html?id=9933" target="_new"> My Rig </A>
March 21, 2002 4:29:12 PM

I agree with sk8r, you will not see the Hammer in store for quite a few years. first off it will not run windows IA64, but it will run windows XP, the 32-bit version. Home users are not going to buy a server class CPU to run 32bit apps on. Home users are not going to switch to Lunix to be able to run a Hammer at home.

64 bit is used the the sciences and medical, there are very very few applications useable by anyone who reads this forum.

Hammer as an apache web server, oooohhhhh..... ROFL

I hope they release the hammer soon, I want everyone to get the wakeup call that there is no windows OS to take advantage of 64bit.

Marketing it is gonna be pure genious, what can builders bundle with it? dual boot linux and XP? pay for both? no OS! keep the buyers in the dark and let them figure it out. Grandma wont be surfing the net on her new Hammer anytime soon.

Lastly, the Hammer hopefully will release this year without a windows OS, this is going to hurt bad for AMD. AMD needs to officially state that Microsoft will develop Windows for x86-64 or make it very clear that 64bit is not an option for windows users.

I hope AMD has the funds carry this project a few years as it will not make profit anytime soon.

<A HREF="http://www.amd.com/us-en/assets/content_type/white_pape..." target="_new">x86-64 White Papers</A>



Proving once again that <A HREF="http://www.zombo.com" target="_new">anything is possible</A>.
March 21, 2002 5:19:10 PM

Another ignorant post from fugger, hammer runs 32 bit apps faster than the athlon, and scales higher, perhaps you should stop making ignorant claims?

"The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark"
March 21, 2002 5:49:42 PM

Microsoft will be releasing a x86-64 version of Windows XP. As to when this will be released is unknown. I thought Jerry Sanders interview basically confirms this (amongst other evidence I have presented in other threads, which I cant be bothered to dredge up again):
<A HREF="http://www.upside.com/texis/mvm/story?id=3c98da541" target="_new">Source</A>

Quotes from Jerry Sanders:
<font color=blue>
"At the end of next year, there will be a 64-bit processor called the “Hammer.” That’s the internal code name, [and it has] a remarkable capability in that it is based on a Microsoft-supported instruction set developed by AMD."

INTERVIEWER: I thought Intel dominated the Microsoft relationship ?

"We call it x86-64 [architecture]; it supports all of the x86 instructions. We’ve added 64-bit capability and instructions that Windows NT64 from Microsoft will support. This is unprecedented in history—Microsoft supporting x86 instructions other than those developed by Intel."

"When we start shipping in 2003, my life’s work will have come to fruition: an independent platform supported by Microsoft that will compete with the Intel monopoly."
</font color=blue>

<font color=purple>~* K6-2 @ 333MHz *~
I don't need a 'Gigahertz' chip to surf the web just yet ;-)</font color=purple>
March 21, 2002 5:58:13 PM

You stated that nobody cared about this thread and that there were no CPUs that fit the description of the question he asked. I proved both wrong.

As for the G4, I don't have a whole lot to add, since I don't know much about the architecture.

Is the PC world behind the times, since we're in 32-bit and Mac is at 128-bit? Not at all, since the G4 isn't the performer it once was.

<font color=blue>If you don't buy Windows, then the terrorists have already won!</font color=blue> - Microsoft
March 21, 2002 6:36:04 PM

no i didn't.

the subjeact reads "Whats out there for 64-bit?" and i said "who cares!" .. i was replying to the subject.... talk about putting words in someones mouth.

as for the G4. I hear it does very well in performance. If you matched clock for clock i'll bet a 128bit cpu would crush a 32bit cpu. (assumption should be that the applications are coded for that cpu at the bit rate it was intended for).

ok i'm hungry now ...

<A HREF="http://www.anandtech.com/mysystemrig.html?id=9933" target="_new"> My Rig </A>
March 21, 2002 7:45:28 PM

The G4 is not a 128 bit cpu. It has AltiVec which uses 128 bit vector registers just like SSE2. The G4 itself is only 32 bit.

/* The more you know, the more you realize how little you know */<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Parma_Endorion on 03/21/02 04:49 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
March 21, 2002 8:17:30 PM

Quote:
The only 64bit cpu is a non x86-32bit cpu .


Then what was the point of this sentance?

<font color=blue>If you don't buy Windows, then the terrorists have already won!</font color=blue> - Microsoft
March 21, 2002 8:25:22 PM

http://www.apple.com/powermac/architecture.html
http://www.apple.com/powermac/specs.html

Processor
800 or 933MHz PowerPC G4 processor; or dual 1GHz PowerPC G4 processors
Velocity Engine vector processing unit
Full 128-bit internal memory data paths
Powerful floating-point unit supporting single-cycle, double-precision calculations
Data stream prefetching operations supporting four simultaneous 32-bit data streams
256K on-chip L2 cache running at processor speed
2MB DDR SDRAM L3 cache per processor, with up to 4GB per second throughput (933MHz and dual 1GHz systems)
133MHz system bus supporting over 1-GBps data throughput (AMD system has what, 133MBps throughput?, with v-link 266)

"2MB DDR SDRAM L3 cache per processor" and there 2 processors. thats pretty cool.

it has a 128bit memory data paths and Data stream prefetching operations supporting four simultaneous 32-bit data streams.

so ya ...


<A HREF="http://www.anandtech.com/mysystemrig.html?id=9933" target="_new"> My Rig </A>
March 21, 2002 8:43:02 PM

Why are you evading my question?

<font color=blue>If you don't buy Windows, then the terrorists have already won!</font color=blue> - Microsoft
March 21, 2002 8:48:07 PM

That sounds similar to SSE, which has 128-bit registers and data paths. I suppose now all Pentium III and Pentium 4 processors are 128-bit as well?

-Raystonn


= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my employer. =
March 21, 2002 8:50:28 PM

And the Athlon XP, don't forget.

<font color=blue>If you don't buy Windows, then the terrorists have already won!</font color=blue> - Microsoft
March 21, 2002 9:23:12 PM

What?

<font color=blue>If you don't buy Windows, then the terrorists have already won!</font color=blue> - Microsoft
March 21, 2002 9:42:25 PM

Ok. I'm just trying to figure out why you said that to me...

<font color=blue>If you don't buy Windows, then the terrorists have already won!</font color=blue> - Microsoft
March 21, 2002 9:50:22 PM

G4 uses 4 <A HREF="http://e-www.motorola.com/webapp/sps/site/overview.jsp?..." target="_new">altivec's</A>

G5 will be 32/64bit backwards compatable

G6 will be 128bit, not much else is known at this time.

<A HREF="http://e-www.motorola.com/webapp/sps/site/overview.jsp?..." target="_new">Motorola processor roadmap</A>

Sadly G4 spanks AMD and Intel at most applications. Even my P4 @ 2.7Ghz cannot perform photoshop functions as fast as a 433Mhz G4.

Ill give Miss Cleo a call and check on an x86-64 OS, but my sources already confirm that there is currently no development, and that Intel would have to enter into the x86-64 market in order to get this ball rolling.

Time will tell if Microsoft will throw money at the hammer to develop a OS that may never make a profit.

Proving once again that <A HREF="http://www.zombo.com" target="_new">anything is possible</A>.
March 21, 2002 9:53:59 PM

Quote:

Sadly G4 spanks AMD and Intel at most applications. Even my P4 @ 2.7Ghz cannot perform photoshop functions as fast as a 433Mhz G4.

Sadly, you are grossly wrong. Photoshop is the ONLY thing the G4 is clearly the winner at. Besides, you can't compare Windows Photoshop directly to the Mac Photoshop. The Windows GUI adds a lot of overhead, unlike the MacOS which seems to be relatively streamlined.

AMD technology + Intel technology = Intel/AMD Pentathlon IV; the <b>ULTIMATE</b> PC processor
March 21, 2002 9:56:33 PM

Ok, but I'm still waiting for an answer to my question.

<font color=blue>If you don't buy Windows, then the terrorists have already won!</font color=blue> - Microsoft
March 21, 2002 10:04:37 PM

I think he meant that currently, the only 64-bit CPU is a non-x86 CPU that won't run 32-bit apps at full speed.

AMD technology + Intel technology = Intel/AMD Pentathlon IV; the <b>ULTIMATE</b> PC processor
March 21, 2002 10:12:25 PM

I know what he meant, but I don't know why he used that statement to say that this thread was pointless.

<font color=blue>If you don't buy Windows, then the terrorists have already won!</font color=blue> - Microsoft
March 21, 2002 10:23:14 PM

Im not wrong, Photoshop, Illustrator, Quark, and other apllications that have cross platform counterparts. This also includes games.

I find that IE is faster on a PC. but thats about it. I have a G4 733 here with all the above apps and then some.

Point being that the G4 CPU is stronger than the Intel and AMD at any clock speed currently available. And the slowest G4 can beat the fastest P4/XP at the above mentioned applications by a wide margin.

Proving once again that <A HREF="http://www.zombo.com" target="_new">anything is possible</A>.
March 21, 2002 10:38:29 PM

Quote:

The only 64bit cpu is a non x86-32bit cpu .



Then what was the point of this sentance?

<font color=blue>If you don't buy Windows, then the terrorists have already won!</font color=blue> - Microsoft
March 21, 2002 10:44:44 PM

What I know of Mac there a peace of Crap
March 21, 2002 10:53:22 PM

That should be "they're", for "they are".
Sorry, I've corrected about 4 people in the last hour, now I CAN'T STOP!! :frown:

<font color=blue>If you don't buy Windows, then the terrorists have already won!</font color=blue> - Microsoft
March 22, 2002 12:39:53 AM

ATHALON, PALAMINO!!!

--
For the first time, Hookers are hooked on Phonics!!
March 22, 2002 12:42:17 AM

Quote:
Ill give Miss Cleo a call and check on an x86-64 OS, but my sources already confirm that there is currently no development, and that Intel would have to enter into the x86-64 market in order to get this ball rolling.

How laughable Fugger, you seem to be ignoring Hammer, AMD's move to be the first before Intel on developping an instruction set ready for the future, including a transition from hyper speed 32bit, unlike Itanium's IA64.

Oh and btw, Microsoft feeds on money, anything that gets the ball rolling will tick them to start developping, and Hammer is an example of them just waiting to make an x86-64 to get $$$. I know they will be turned on by AMD!

--
For the first time, Hookers are hooked on Phonics!!
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