amd thermal protection

whats the deal with amd not including thermal protection already? they have caught a lot of flack for not having it, you would think they would get on it. is this planned in the tbred?

i went to the tomshardware forums and all i got was this lousy signature.

flame bait huh, no. i know about the motherboard protection, but im talking about the throttling that the pentiums do.

i went to the tomshardware forums and all i got was this lousy signature.

do pentium boards do the same? i only have expirience with 1 new generation pentium board and its pretty dry in the features department.

i went to the tomshardware forums and all i got was this lousy signature.

<A HREF="http://www.motherboards.org/articlesd/motherboard-reviews/1135_2.html" target="_new"> Soltek SL-75DRV5</A> protects your cpu too



wish if there was UnDo in the life

at least when the P4 throttles down...you can still use it...unlike the AXP...which shuts itself down entirely...
but i understand you're point...

i would have to agree, there should be some software that intel should include w/ the P4 cpu to let the user know if the cpu is slowing itself down...

is that the main reason?
i would have guessed that you wouldnt buy a P4 notebook because its not cost effective...in other words...its just plain slow...

<b><font color=red>ATI</font color=red>'s drivers are like a broken faucet, they both keep on leaking...</b>

good question...i wonder why they dont put ddr ram w/ athlon 4...

<b><font color=red>ATI</font color=red>'s drivers are like a broken faucet, they both keep on leaking...</b>

the P4 does not "constantly throttles down" this is misconception and/or misinformation on your part.

you obviously do not care about the data that's in memory at the time, it's understandable if you have a game running but consider the fact that not only your data is gone but some harddisks can't even park themselves correctly and lose even more data when your sys shuts down abruptly.

"<b>AMD/VIA!</b>...you are <i>still</i> the weakest link, good bye!"

Oh yeah?
Then what if it shuts down when you use an NTFS filesystem like WinXP or Win2000? See, it won't matter anymore, data is always there.
Do think before talking Melty...

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For the first time, Hookers are hooked on Phonics!!

It takes the Motherboard makers to integrate the standard into their motherboards before any thermal protection will truely work. I'd expect it to finaly be ready for the hammer, and MB makers won't have much of an issue since they have to completely redesign their MBs anyway.

Trollin' trollin' trollin', keep them doggies postin', my fingers are swollen, Rawhide!

Melty actualy has a valid point though (Scary as that may be). Especialy for a server, which is where there are often heat problems beyond the realms of normal cooling, as most server rooms need their own AC to keep everything happy and cool. With the P4, the computer will slow down, and can function while it sends warnings to any admins, while any other CPU will simply shut down (if that), leaving admins little time to actualy get to the CPU in the first place.

As for warnings about throttling, there is probably software that can warn you when your CPU is reaching a throtling threashhold.

Trollin' trollin' trollin', keep them doggies postin', my fingers are swollen, Rawhide!

The throttling is built into the chip, but there are some motherboard specs needed to support it that are required to be implemented.

Technicaly, AMD's thermal protection is required, but there are too many older designs that were grandfathered in.

Trollin' trollin' trollin', keep them doggies postin', my fingers are swollen, Rawhide!

He's talking about unsaved data, like an Excel spreadsheet you haven't saved yet and suddenly the computer shuts off and you have to redo the work. The file system makes no difference in this case.

What you're talking about is file system corruption caused by the computer being shut off while the hard disk is in the process of writing. Indeed, NTFS has more protection against this than FAT32.

Ritesh

Yeah, I mean seriously when some CPU burns out, there must be a reason behind it, and again it's user error almost 99.9% of the time. So why is thermal protection so needed, if you're the responsible? The Hammer will use the P4's retention mechanism but more enhanced, as well as IHS, I don't think we can worry about Heatsinks falling off. As for fan failure, please teach me how in the world a well plugged fan can fail, if you always keep the case clean of dust?

All in all, it's mostly the wussies that need thermal protection because they can't handle building a comp or like Melty, fear the worst all the time. Yeah it's a plus when you got it, but in this forum, experts like you and the rest who build PCs do not have this worry on the top of their list while building a comp. If they do, well they shouldn't be building comps in the first place, the stress would be too much and they'll flunk one component at some point.

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Dude, don't take it the wrong way. I agree with you that 99.9% of time it's the user's fault that the processor burned up. But with with their fault the CPU should protect itself. Here's one more example...

In a corporation there is a farm of machines with AMD processors which are responsible for doing online transaction, accessing database, taking orders, etc. Assume there are 100 AMD machines. And they can't afford to loose any one of them. So just incase, there was a fan failure in one of these PC. the processor would kill the machine with the data in the memory, it would loose customer's data, account information and whatever it had. So now, the company who spent lots of money to get a customer just lost them because of a faulty FAN, and I don't think that's acceptable.

For us it doesn't matter because we can alway re-start the machine and figure out what we were doing when the processor killed itself. And fix it. But the big corporation rely on these stuff heavly, so, it's just not accepted there.

KG

<b>"Hey! It compiles! Ship it!"</b>

you have got to be(by far) the d______ AMDmongrel that I've had the displeasure of debating with at thgc, the quote above is the best example of the most i______ statement ever made on this forum bar none.

um, this is not a flame or anything ok,...

"<b>AMD/VIA!</b>...you are <i>still</i> the weakest link, good bye!"

Yes Kemche I am totally with you on this one. That is why I said clearly, that IN THIS forum, I don't see how people should put the worry of thermal protection above anything without even keeping the HSF well mounted and keep a regular checkup on the dust.
These companies also rely on different backups, and always make sure to buy some serious protection, not just the average user cooling.
But yea, I would definitly feel more right with protection, but I just don't see it being the top priority in this forum as normal users. Especially when the P4 has 3 levels of protection (always good, but a little overdone IMO): IHS to prevent core from burning, Retention mechanism to prevent HSF from falling, and thottle in case of fan failure. It'd be sweet if AXPs had that, but even adding IHS would first destroy the best part in OCing, the multiplier unlock trick, and throttling without warning is a bit stupid, since you never know when your comp is overheating, especially when a Joe working in Word and finding out the comp suddenly is somewhat slow, he doesn't even know he's got throttling going on.

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For the first time, Hookers are hooked on Phonics!!

The problem with the P4 and throttling is that Intel outright <i>encourages</i> OEMs to underspec the cooling on the Willamette. Intel felt they had to, since the Willamette runs hotter than any other x86 CPU in existence (including the Thunderbird). Throttling is nice and everything, but I can't see it as anything more than a necessary hack to compensate for poor design in other areas.

As for the Athlon, you simply have to install reasonable cooling. Even the T-bird can go just fine without needing throttling technology. And since you can use software to shut down an Athlon system cleanly in case of temperature emergencies, data loss is really not a problem at all.

<i>If a server crashes in a server farm and no one pings it, does it still cost four figures to fix?

<A HREF="http://developer.intel.com/design/pentium4/datashts/24988702.pdf" target="_new">http://developer.intel.com/design/pentium4/datashts/24988702.pdf</A>

Section 6.1 (Page 77):

Notice that the "Thermal Design Power" listed in table 33 is only 75% of maximum power draw.

<i>If a server crashes in a server farm and no one pings it, does it still cost four figures to fix?

I have a five year old Pentium 200 system that has *not* been running 16 hours a day, everyday, and the fan clogged up with dust and stopped running. It may have been like that for a year or more, I'm not sure because the processor still didn't get hot enough to lock up. But the point is, fans can easily clog up with dust depending on the environment. Even my ceiling fan in the bedroom gets dust on the leading edges.

The point is, it's extra insurance. If there were 2 AMD XPs, one without throttling, and one with throttling, but the throttling one sold for $10 more, I think that the throttling CPU would sell better.

Eden, I know you are a big fan of the AMD CPU, however, Intel's P4 has much better thermal protection, and the extra security it provides makes it more attractive to personal and coperate users alike. Plus, you don't have to worry about heat as much when overclocking. If the heat gets to much, the CPU will throttle down, and you're probably pushing it harder than your cooling system can provide for. It's extra things like that that help make people feel better about a purchase, and that is one of the reasons the P4 does much better in the corperate market than the Athlon.

Trollin' trollin' trollin', keep them doggies postin', my fingers are swollen, Rawhide!

Hmm you may have misunderstood my last posts because I said that the thermal protection is definitly a big plus. Yes I would have bought the protection one for sure, if it's a few extra bucks. But I doubt the overpricing of P4s initially was due to that.
I do admit the P4 has better protection, and that it's a great plus there, however the only gripe, is also seen from your middle quote:

How can you KNOW your OCed CPU is throttling? THAT is what keeps this nice technology a bit weird, and I am more than sure that FatBurger could've run into throttling without knowing it. Imagine him benching, and didn't realize a sudden throttling for a few seconds, the score goes down, he doesn't know why. So until there is a warning, the throttling unless throttled to 100MHZ clock speed in Quake 3, is barely noticeable and can affect any type of heavy work.
In any case, what's more important, having thermal protection, or a few megs lost in the thermal shutoff? I'd say the former is the more optimistic one.

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For the first time, Hookers are hooked on Phonics!!

Well like my example, it COULD result in SOME degrading without noticing, and the most annoying parts would be i.e. benchmarking. Now don't take this as the main point where it could be annoying, I'm just using it as an example.
But my main inquiry is that without warning, throttling would make me more uneasy... For all I know the game that is suddenly slowing in FPS, could first make me think that the HDD is accessing or there is too much action, so how the hell would I know there's overheat then! Intel HAS to get a warning bell, or there HAS to be some option in mobos, I mean if non-thermal protected mobos have a warning sound, how can thermal protected ones don't! Warning as in early high temps, not extreme temps before lethal limits.

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For the first time, Hookers are hooked on Phonics!!

So the average user who's HSF Might fail or fall, would live with a throttled comp never knowing what is going on?

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For the first time, Hookers are hooked on Phonics!!

Except "autosave" has been built into MS Office since at least 1998 (or even earlier) and you will probably only lose the last few minutes of what you typed in so this is an exaggerated statement. No question though the P4 throttling is a better feature over AMD although I wouldn't consider it as important as AMDMeltdown does. It would be nice if Intel had an app or some kind of monitor that would show when it is throttling, how much, and keep record the details. Some day I'm sure they will.


<font color=green>"No Thoroughbred for you! Come back, 2 weeks."</font color=green>

Ok let's end this, Fatty I am not seeking your agreement nor approval, I just want to ask you and get the full answer on whether you think a warning bell should be needed or not?
That's all I need and have wanted to know from you, and whoever has been stalking us...

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For the first time, Hookers are hooked on Phonics!!