Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (
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Malachias Invictus wrote:
> "tussock" <scrub@clear.net.nz> wrote in message
> news:42ac1bd3@clear.net.nz...
>>Malachias Invictus wrote:
<snip>
>>>The more heads it has, the more I agree with the CR. I am mainly
>>>bitching about the 5-headed version, which is only CR 4 (?!?).
>>
>> How exactly does it challenge a 4th level party? OK, it's a nasty
>>thing to find in your swimming pool, and it's pretty damn hard to kill; so
>>you go around it.
>
> If "being able to go around it" is the benchmark for CR, then nothing is a
> challenge to a party with teleport.
You'll note that a whole lot of high CR monsters have an impressive
capacity for getting about, there's even quite a few teleporters and
plane-shifters amongst them.
You'll also note that monster whose only gig is to stand and melee
are better at it than comparible PCs. Those that are also *slow* have
ludicrously powerful melee attacks, and/or rediculous defenses.
As to your point: I'm sure you know full well the point of monsters
is to threaten to kill or otherwise disable the party in the course of
an adventure, and to thereby cause them to use resources in overcoming it.
>>>>AC is unimpressive, their AB doesn't exactly light the world on fire,
>>>>horrendous Will saves,
>>>
>>>Sure. Then again, think about what a 4th-level party brings to bear, and
>>>think about one of these things using only 20% of that party's resources.
>>
>><snip>
>>
>> Move 20. Yawn.
>
> Obviously, you have never been in a party with guys who wear medium or heavy
> armor, or any parties that include dwarves, gnomes, or halflings.
Your "adventurers", and I use the term loosely, need to invest in
the ability to move. Horses are a good start, as is light armour for
travelling.
After they've learnt to move, I would highly recommend a scout
capable of spotting uncamoflagued huge creatures at a safe distance.
>>It's an outside monster: get on your bike and leave it alone.
>
> ....and if you cannot?
Darwin comes to mind. The party'll also need a Spot skill, and a
Survival skill, incase you're unaware.
>>By 6th level it's barely even a speedbump,
>
> I disagree. Even at 6th level, it is likely to use more resources than
> other CR 4 encounters.
At 55 hp/AC 15 it won't survive a full round of attacks from a 6th
level party, even ignoring tactical abuse of it's obvious weaknesses.
>>so any higher CR starts to look silly.
>>If you _really_ needed to kill it at level 4, you probably have the tools
>>to do so, even if it would be harder than 20%. A good tank would help, but
>>even /Burning Hands/ would cover the needed fire damage.
>
> Can a 4th level party crack out enough Burning Hands spells to get the job
> done? I seriously doubt it.
So come back when you do, scrolls are cheap. Some /Scorching Ray/
or a big /Fireball/ would have even better effect.
>>>>Tough, but not grotesquely so.
>>>
>>>For CR 4, they certainly are. Compare one to a Tiger (yes, a regular
>>>tiger), which is also CR 4.
>>
>> Pounce = dead PC.
>
> Let's see:
>
> Alpha Strike from Tiger (average damage): 31 (46 if it succeeds in a
> grapple).
>
> Alpha Strike from a Hydra (average damage): 42.5
>
> Sorry, that is not much more damage than the Hydra, and the Tiger must
> succeed at a grapple check to do it. While grappling, its AC drops to 12
> (10 on the round that it charged) and it is subject to sneak attacks. It
> can also only pull this trick once on a reasonably intelligent party,
> because without Pounce, it cannot Rake the same round that it initiates a
> grapple (see the rules on Rake).
<sigh> See the rules on *Pounce*, which allow you to full attack
_and use your rake attacks_ on the round you charge; this does not
require a grapple check.
The differences between the Tiger and the Hydra on attack is 40 vs
20 movement, the Tiger can set an ambush, and has +9/+9/+9/+9/+4 vs five
+6 attacks, which is much better against AC 15-20.
~30 damage from an animal that *will* get an attack, vs ~20 from a
creature that you only fight if you want to.
That 20 damage still being there on round 2 is a pain, until you
realise /you/ don't have to be there to take it. But then, that requires
a "reasonably intelligent party".
> Furthermore,
<snip>
I know, killing the Hydra is much harder, I said that already.
>>Big cats are like Trolls for CR, if their special attack comes off they're
>>pretty likely to score a kill.
>
> The Hydra apparently can inflict almost as much damage without needing a
> special attack sequence.
The hydra /does/ have a special attack sequence, the ability to
move and still get all it's attacks. It doesn't much matter, as it's
average number of attacks against an unprepared party is approximately nil.
--
tussock
Aspie at work, sorry in advance.
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