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"Croyd Thoth" <croyd26thoth@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9673E4AAA36E5croyd62thothgmailcom@129.250.170.83...
> So, I'm running a published adventure for "4 to 6 3rd- to 5th-
> level characters"; the write-up suggests "15 total character
> levels". I foolishly let the players run, among other things,
> a 5th-level Paladin with a +5 sword and a 6th (!) level rogue
> with a couple of home-brewed feats that make her sneak attacks
> even more deadly than usual--an extra 2d6 of damage if she
> uses both feats.
Okay a few things to consider. Make those choices of attack
a little less attractive. Don't totally screw the players for
something
you allowed them to do in the first place.
What do I mean? Well perhaps the rogue faces a few more enemies
that are immune to sneak attack damage.
Another thing. Perhaps the paladin finds that the +5 sword he is
carrying
just happens to have some intelligence. The more foes he slays the
more
the intelligence betweens to form, perhaps limit that to evil
creatures.
The sword has a spirit of an older paladin in it, and is trapped until
he can kill 101 evil foes to attune for a past misdeed. The good news
the sword (if the PCs found it) is almost done with its task, 97 kills
or
any number that might be close to the 101 mark. The bad news, the
party paladin has to finish this mission in x amount of time or he
might find himself trapped in the sword as well.
At the completion of the 101 kill, and at a point where the battles
are done
for awhile. The sword drops from the paladin's hand, a fierce yellow
glow
surrounds the blade, and seconds later a naked, shivering, but
throughly
grateful once dead paladin climbs out of the blade. The sword retains
some of its magic, but becomes a weapon more suitable for the power
level of the group. Perhaps a +2 with a special ability no greater
than +1.
The PCs have just gained a potential ally sometime in the future but
have gained a man/woman who is currently shocked from the magical
release and is almost useless for a few days. They will need to make
sure that the paladin arrives in a safe place where he/she can
recover.
A side adventure yes, but something that also brings in another aspect
of possible adventures, possible sponsership for the paladin pc into
certain prestige classes later in the campaign.
If this seems too heavy handed to you, I can understand. Just offering
a suggestion where I saw a possible solution. Of course few
players really want to give up the power a +5 weapon gives them
but it might lead them to feeling that they did something right.
That they made one more push in favor of "Good" by releasing
the trapped paladin.
A way to introduce this is kind of simple, perhaps the sword
begins to talk to the paladin in his mind, or during his dreams.
Perhaps certain things start to show up while the sword is held
or in use. Maybe the paladin himself is unaware, as sometimes
he starts to say things that the trapped paladin would say
and not things that are in character for him. This would require
you talking to the Paladin's player and working with him.
If you really feel the game is out of balance now, you should consider
talking to your group and seeing how they feel. Open communication
definately helps in dealing with issues like this.
Now what do the feats the rogue got require to use, and what do they
do exactly? 2d6 of extra sneak attack isn't always that great
considering
all the things that are required to get a successful sneak attack.
> And they're making mincemeat of what were supposed to be
> fairly tough opponents.
+5 will do that. A fifth level paladin gets a decent Base attack bonus
+4 or +5 right? I don't have my books handy, or I'd double check.
The +5 sword gives +5 to hit and damage, which means the Paladin's
To hit numbers have doubled just due to that one sword. Okay not
a problem in some sense. What happens when you have higher AC
opponents, opponents who use feats like dodge, or fighting defensively
to deal with the paladin. It doesn't cancel the effect of a +5 sword
but in some cases it makes sense for foes to use feats, or skills to
deal with the seemingly unstoppable sword of justice.
Another thing to consider although this is close to screwing a player
is some person happens to see the paladin in battle. The skill at
which
he swings the sword, and battles the party's foes impresses the
witness
and he believe the paladin is of higher status than he really is, so
he sends
word to his Lord that they found a champion for his cause if only they
can convince the paladin to help them. Put the character a little over
his head
but not much, and allow him to go by himself while the rest of the
party
works on another issue. This will allow the lower level cleric a
chance to gain
a level or two while the "uber" paladin is off in an attempt to help
this Lord.
Have the Paladin's Owner roll up another character to travel with the
current
group, and run a seperate side track with the Paladin. If the Paladin
is successful
in handling the situation he returns to the party after sometime and
his replacement
fades into the background.
Perhaps the Lord has what he feels is a "useless" paladin so he wants
to temporarly
exchange his paladin for your paladin.
> I tried simply adding monsters to one encounter, but that
> did little but extend the combat by a round or two.
Yeah, if you have people who are cutting through foes like butter
adding
more fodder has two effects.
1) It adds more xp for the party, which if you work a formula like one
of my current DMs does, the lower level players will get a bit more
than a full share, while the higher levels get a bit less, not much
but enough that the xp levels will begin to curve toward a center.
If I can I'll try to locate the xp formula he uses and post it here
for consideration.
2) It adds another slightly sinister effect. Sometimes monsters get
lucky in their
attacks and can either kill or maim a PC. More monsters means more of
a chance
that x or y monster can break past the front line and go right for the
weaker characters.
There is a possibility that these monsters/npcs might get a lucky hit
on the lower characters
who can't stand to take hte hit as much as the paladin. Okay, so all
that is lucky rolls
and based upon the intelligence of the monster, the place where attack
happens etc.
It normally wouldn't be a situation in most encounters but could be an
issue under
the right or wrong conditions.
>
> So I guess I need to beef up the bad guys; how can I do this
> without making the 3rd level cleric in the party completely
> useless?
Tough question, as the 3rd level cleric is already behind the curve
in two very important ways. He is two levels lower than the paladin
and 3 levels lower than the rogue. At low levels this is a major
issue.
I find at level 10+ it doesn't seem to be as much of an issue.
A level 12 cleric, compared to a level 15 paladin, or 16 rogue isn't
as
gimped as the character is in the situation you have now. Magic items,
money, and the ramping up of PC power after level 6 or so results
in a smaller margin of power loss, as items, situational things, or
class specalization works to fill in the niches.
Where the cleric is most powerful right now though is raw healing
ability
and party buffing. Yes the Paladin has spells, and some healing but
the cleric has access to more, and depending on domain selection can
offering even more.
Who else is in the party? I see a cleric 3rd, paladin 5th, and rogue
6th.
Perhaps you can ask the Cleric 3rd if he would wish to play a
character
that was closer to the party level. 5th level or so. If the Cleric is
well known
in his church the replacement could be a other number of his clergy,
as the
cleric 3rd has "family" troubles or has been requested to return to
his church.
That way you have reduced one issue of the power level equation. It
doesn't
get rid of the +5 sword or the extra sneak attack but it levels the
party out a
bit for the player of the cleric.
> I've been contemplating giving some of the monsters damage
> reduction that's penetrated only by non-magical weapons,
> but that seems kind of cheesy, and I don't want the Paladin
> to feel useless, either; she's got a +5 sword, and by golly
> there should be something that needs a +5 sword for her to
> fight!
Okay even if you give monsters DR that can only be overcome with non-
magical weapons, that doesn't do a bit of good to prevent the paladin
from just getting in there and swinging as hard as she can.
DR 5/non magic would just negate 5 points of damage from each of
the paladin's strikes. It would prevent her from hitting, but she'd
do 5 points less. A +5 sword, well less assume that the sword is a
long sword.
1d8 +5 (magical) + 3 (strength) assuming a roll of 4 on a d8, although
that isn't
quite the average roll if I remember my average die roll value tables.
I could be
wrong though. Anyway, that's 4 + 5 (mag) + 3 str = around 12 damage
per hit.
DR 5/non magic would reduce this to 8 damage per hit on average, not
at all
considering crits or any feats that improve damage, etc.
DR doesn't prevent damage, just reduces which might not be a bad issue
as the paladin won't be slicing through the monsters as fast. But
don't make it
DR 5/non magic as that isn't standard and most players might feel
cheated.
If you made it DR 5/- that would be more in line with standard DR but
also prevent every other character from doing their max potential
damage.
This situation does indeed feel "cheesy," and if I was given a choice
I'd
probably not go this route. It is your game though, so you have to
make
the choices.
> (Note:the "she's" are not PC-ness run amok; the characters
> in question are female.)
>
> Any suggestions on how I can make the monsters tougher
> without doing a massive re-write of all 50-odd
> creatures to increase the challenge rating by 2?
>
> --
> Croyd Thoth
>
> To reply, swap the digits in the address.
Feat selection, slight modifications in magical or normal gear. Give
the monsters
access to more healing of some sort. So if the paladin doesn't kill
him in one
round the monster might have a chance to fall back heal a bit and
rejoin the fray.
Don't load down all the monsters with healing magic because in the end
if the players do kill the monsters they get the treasure which means
the PCs would see a flood of new healing, etc, which might once again
reduce the cleric's role in the party.
Hopefully that helps. Also you might consider teamwork feats for your
monsters.
Most mindless wouldn't qualify. But perhaps some of those NPC mooks
ahve
trained to fight together. Giving each other flanking bonuses, or AC
bonuses
as they twist and weave their shields in strange patterns that offer
protection to both
of them.
Okay, off to work. Have fun, and good luck.
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