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Even more of Intel's FUD training classes?

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April 9, 2002 8:36:11 PM

<A HREF="http://www.amdzone.com/articleview.cfm?ArticleID=1033" target="_new">http://www.amdzone.com/articleview.cfm?ArticleID=1033&l...;/A> It's clickable!

I know I usually never dig up dirt on companies, but while visiting AMD Zone for the Tbred 512K L2 rumors, I saw this. Maybe some had seen it, but it's dated April 2, way after the Aberdeen news. In any case, can such a big company become so freaked out of a little ant on their toes?

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For the first time, Hookers are hooked on Phonics!!<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Eden on 04/09/02 04:40 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
April 9, 2002 9:20:17 PM

The slides used (or at least some of them) were posted over at HardOCP, and they weren't nearly as bad as I was expecting.

I like how he calls it FUD before the content was available at all, let alone to him personally.
If AMDZone ceases operations, it will be a great day.

<font color=blue>If you don't buy Windows, then the terrorists have already won!</font color=blue> - Microsoft
April 9, 2002 10:13:07 PM

there is no proof it is fud, they just have a training class.

<i>My life wasn't complete untill I tried sse-2 optimized pong</i>
April 9, 2002 11:44:10 PM

One that spreads FUD.

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For the first time, Hookers are hooked on Phonics!!
April 9, 2002 11:45:50 PM

Yes but his arguments made sense. The way Intel would try to lure people into taking a class about fake truth or masked truth, is proof of how Intel FUD is growing. I dunno Fatty, but you're really becoming more and more pro-Intel these days rather than neutral and discuss the articles read. That's my view, and I hope you don't hold me on trial for it.

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For the first time, Hookers are hooked on Phonics!!
April 10, 2002 12:32:38 AM

<font color=green>FatBurger</font color=green> has either seen the light or entered the dark side, take your pick. :wink:

AMD technology + Intel technology = Intel/AMD Pentathlon IV; the <b>ULTIMATE</b> PC processor
April 10, 2002 12:38:43 AM

What about you man, what is your take on this? I mean I don't want to throw insults at Intel, or sound like a troll, but damn sometimes they really put their minds in those who are younger than them.

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For the first time, Hookers are hooked on Phonics!!
April 10, 2002 12:49:55 AM

Sure, it's dishonest, but all companies do that. AMD still insists they have the fastest PC processor, nVidia says Kyro II sucks, ATI says the R8500 outdoes the Ti4600, etc, etc. It's all about marketing. Never trust what a company has to say about their own products. :tongue:

AMD technology + Intel technology = Intel/AMD Pentathlon IV; the <b>ULTIMATE</b> PC processor
April 10, 2002 12:53:10 AM

Man how dumb poeple can get.

We've developed a training class to help you understand the facts behind AMD Athlon* processor naming methodology. Attend the training through our Internet broadcast, where you can choose from several one-hour sessions over the next several weeks

LOL

I guess They think people who buy Intel Can t go to Amd.com and read up for them self.

Sorry guys I think people who work for Intel are just dumb.
April 10, 2002 1:05:24 AM

Of course AMDzone is going to over do it and call it intelFUD. They are know AMD Trolls. The way I see the class is a way to help resellers sell their product.
April 10, 2002 1:43:57 AM

Nope, when Intel goes down to this point, it's called ignorancy. I know marketting, but this, is pure FUD, far from what a company would advertise.
AMD at least, even when getting beat up by Intel, does not do any radical ploys to counter that and instead calmly say it: MHZ isn't everything. Is there any FUD in that? Nope.

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For the first time, Hookers are hooked on Phonics!!
April 10, 2002 4:09:42 AM

Quote:
FatBurger has either seen the light or entered the dark side, take your pick.


IMO, both.

Let me be the first to ask: who here has actually looked at the slides or watched the broadcast (which I don't think is available to the general public)?
Until you do one or the other, I refuse to listen to your opinion. You can't judge a book by it's cover, and it appears that at least a couple people are.

<font color=blue>If you don't buy Windows, then the terrorists have already won!</font color=blue> - Microsoft
April 10, 2002 6:14:15 AM

never trust someone who works for a company either.

sure listen to what they say, but rember that they are paycheck biased lol

You're an embarrisment to nature you know that?
April 10, 2002 7:14:48 AM

Quote:
AMD at least, even when getting beat up by Intel, does not do any radical ploys to counter that and instead calmly say it: MHZ isn't everything. Is there any FUD in that? Nope.

then what has AMD been doing with all the street dumping fud? they've been in a desperate attempt to try and convince ppl about the AXP's with fud, their pr fud campaign is full of fud dude, fud, fud, fud! you ought to look up fud.

Intel is just countering AMD's fud this time.

"<b>AMD/VIA!</b>...you are <i>still</i> the weakest link, good bye!"
April 10, 2002 7:17:30 AM

Quote:
Sorry guys I think people who work for Intel are just dumb.

oh, so your supposed to be smarter than the ppl who work for Intel? is that what you're saying?

"<b>AMD/VIA!</b>...you are <i>still</i> the weakest link, good bye!"
April 10, 2002 11:44:51 AM

Well the link shows some slides, and even from these, it's just enough to show FUD. I dunno how you cannot see the desperate attempt behind that, I mean THEY-ARE-GIVING-TRAINING-CLASSES-AGAINST-A-PR-RATING-WHICH-AMD-DOES-NOT-USE-AGAINST-A-P4-BUT-A-TBIRD!
How loud can I be before someone knows that? As long as AMD puts it that way, be it true or not, Intel is spewing even more misinformation and FUD.

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For the first time, Hookers are hooked on Phonics!!
April 10, 2002 11:53:59 AM

Hmm, I agree with AMDMeltdown here! If you want to study computer engineering in Waterloo, here in Canada, then you need a 95% average! Even I'm not getting that high right now! If you're getting a 95% average of all your courses, then you're either really really smart or you're a workaholic with no life.

AMD technology + Intel technology = Intel/AMD Pentathlon IV; the <b>ULTIMATE</b> PC processor
April 10, 2002 12:12:20 PM

hm. The best people I know in computer engineering (in Korea) are in Samsung, LG, Hynix, etc. Some students in SNU, KAIST, PosTech want to go either to Samsung or Intel. I haven't yet met anyone who wants to work for AMD. I mean in Korea as far as I know.

Searching for the true, the beautiful, and the eternal
April 10, 2002 12:18:02 PM

What's the difference between marketing and "FUD"?

Searching for the true, the beautiful, and the eternal
April 10, 2002 1:07:41 PM

Quote:
I dunno how you cannot see the desperate attempt behind that

Intel is hardly desperate.
April 10, 2002 1:09:02 PM

According to Eden, it seems marketing done by intel in FUD, but marketing done by AMD is marketing.
April 10, 2002 3:28:12 PM

Who said anything about working for AMD? That came out of left field.

<font color=blue>If you don't buy Windows, then the terrorists have already won!</font color=blue> - Microsoft
April 10, 2002 4:43:50 PM

The only thing I can reply to you I already did last time.

Searching for the true, the beautiful, and the eternal
April 10, 2002 5:30:15 PM

What? I missed that.

<font color=blue>If you don't buy Windows, then the terrorists have already won!</font color=blue> - Microsoft
April 10, 2002 6:58:14 PM

never mind. not important at all.

Searching for the true, the beautiful, and the eternal
April 10, 2002 8:07:10 PM

Oh Jesus, man nobody here has the sense of understanding today or what???
I must be the only one here who sees the FUD behind this and nobody agrees. But when someone else, like mr.gobbledegook posts some articles like that (Intel's anti-PR document), everyone agrees and sees FUD! Come on people....

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For the first time, Hookers are hooked on Phonics!!
April 10, 2002 8:10:18 PM

Well man, there are many companies that do put their rival's names in their marketting adds, I agree to that. However, to actually put a class to teach people about a company's procedure to identify their own processors, isn't FUD? Sorry but when Intel does that, especially against a small company like AMD, they show much fear and uncertainity in their slides, especially when claiming a Palomino only goes to 1.67GHZ max! There is of course doubt in this too.

In any case, I still wonder why nobody sees this as I do. I don't want to bash Intel, but I wanted for all to see how low they can go in times against AMD!

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For the first time, Hookers are hooked on Phonics!!
April 10, 2002 8:29:16 PM

I never thought of Intel marketing a fair thing and I never liked the way Intel advertized its products and published presentation ppt and white paper pdf files. However, that has always been the same with HP, Sun, Microsoft, IBM, and so on. I do not feel only Intel's overdoing it. When you compare HP marketing with Sun marketing, it's really funny. Most things are not worth reading in my opinion. Fear? Very much do I feel that way with AMD. I am not saying Intel's honest and AMD's not. AMD IS small and AMD IS doing very well considering its much smaller budget size and establishment. But I don't like the way you apply words like "low" and "FUD" too often to an industry leader like Intel. Anyway, the documents are intended primarily for those who promote and sell Intel products and I don't feel it's good to criticize Intel based on the material. Many people seem to see it as you do but I do not.

Searching for the true, the beautiful, and the eternal
April 10, 2002 8:37:34 PM

Well I am not sure on the class only for OEMs and major distributors. I think it was directed to many other people, normal users. Well the article that had a document PDF sent by Intel to OEMs, to actually persuade them to literally hate AMD because their PR is a lie, was definitly FUD from them.

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For the first time, Hookers are hooked on Phonics!!
April 10, 2002 9:35:04 PM

I just noticed the slides on AMDZone's website, along with Chris Tom's very own FUD.
Here's my breakdown, for those interested:

Slide #1: Title only

Slide #2: Key points - very much opinion, only one I really have a problem with is "Thoroughbred not expected to help much". Right...whatever you say.

Slide #3: Spec benchmarks - worthless benchmark overall. (By the way, the two benchmark systems are fair, IMO. The Athlon system isn't crippled in any way, at least by the hardware they listed.)

Slide #4: "Northwood extends Intel's lead" - nice selective benchmarking. Intel has chosen benchmarks they know they can win, rather than choosing the most popularly used programs.

Slide #5: About the Northwood, apparently - nothing really to comment on, just facts and a quote from Hardware Central.

Slide #6: Northwood/Palomino comparision: Whoa, clockspeed comparision with no actual performance comparision? And hold on, the XP's maximum power usage vs. the NW's "normal" power usage? That's rather slanted, don't you think?
Chris Tom's FUD: "...terrible performance per MHz. Disadvantage Intel." Typical battle cry for someone who is biased against Intel but can't really present a coherent argument as to why.
My opinion on clockspeed/IPC: <i>IPC and clockspeed are equally important. Anyone using one for comparision without including the other is obviously slanting the truth.</i>
Looks like in this instance Intel and Chris Tom are equally guilty.

Slide #7: "MHz matters!" - same selective benchmarking.

Slide #8: "Northwood excels on today's usage models" - selective benchmarking again.
Chris Tom's FUD is worth commenting on. He makes the comment that the comparision should've been on both DDR platforms, not Intel on RDRAM. If DDR is so much better (as he has stated in the past), why is he so scared of letting the P4 use RDRAM? Furthermore, the P4 was designed for RDRAM, not DDR. I think I'll challenge him to a race, me in my Subaru and him in a pickup. Oh, but we get to use the same engine, and that way it'll be fair.

Slide #9: "Problem Ratings" - More selective benchmarking, more proof that Chris Tom doesn't know what he's talking about.

Slide #10: "AMD Roadmap Slipping" - (For Internal Use Only...oops) this shows the performance rating staying the same between Palomino and Thoroughbred. In which case, I can see what Intel is saying in the fourth point of slide #2 (Thoroughbred not expected to help much), but if that's the case, then Intel seems to be either ignoring the clock scaling advantages of Thoroughbred, or confident that Northwood will scale enough to keep out of harms way, so to speak.

Slide #11: "Thoroughbred Not Expected to Help Much" - nothing false here, Chris Tom is calling it hypocritical, though I don't really see it that way.

Slide #12: OEM support - pure FUD from Intel, same kind of slant as the max power consumption from XPs vs. the "normal" power consumption of NWs. Chris Tom did a good job of checking that for truth (or lack thereof).

Slide #13: Summary - second and third points are making an assumption on the PR ratings and slanting the truth, respectively.
Chris Tom: "Intel summarizes that the Northwood outperforms the Athlon XP in all the benchmarks they hand picked or had a hand in corrupting." He didn't read the slide on his own website, Intel did not say that.
"When the performance rating system was launched for the Athlon it was anyone's guess as to what the results would be." Now hold on a minute. If the PR ratings are based on the Tbird as AMD says, then they should have no impact on sales vs. the P4. However, (dare I say it?) AMD knew full well that the majority of customers would look at the PR rating and equate it with a P4, therefore solidifying the price/performance equation.
For once, great marketing tactics from AMD.
"The bottom line here is Intel has done a great job bending the truth, or perhaps even outright lying." As opposed to Chris Tom, who did a terrible job of bending the truth, or perhaps even outright lying.
"It is tough to say without a clear indication on whether they are still using this presentation actively." One slide clearly had "Internal Use Only" at the top, which is a pretty clear indication that they are not using (at least part of) the presentation actively.
"In fact we feel their resources could be better used by dropping the constant FUD..." You have my full permission to shut down your site and take a well-needed (though perhaps not well-deserved) vacation.

<font color=blue>If you don't buy Windows, then the terrorists have already won!</font color=blue> - Microsoft<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by FatBurger on 04/10/02 02:41 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
April 10, 2002 9:57:40 PM

Quote:

Intel is hardly desperate.

Actually, they should be, their stock price is going into the tank:

<A HREF="http://www.theinquirer.net/10040217.htm" target="_new">inquirer article</A>

<A HREF="http://biz.yahoo.com/oo/020408/72263.html" target="_new">realplayer audio</A>

Maybe it's time to buy Intel (stock, not processors).

I thought a thought, but the thought I thought wasn't the thought I thought I had thought.<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by ath0mps0 on 04/10/02 02:59 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
April 10, 2002 11:27:37 PM

Quote:
I must be the only one here who sees the FUD behind this and nobody agrees. But when someone else, like mr.gobbledegook posts some articles like that (Intel's anti-PR document), everyone agrees and sees FUD! Come on people....

I see through your fears.

"<b>AMD/VIA!</b>...you are <i>still</i> the weakest link, good bye!"
April 11, 2002 1:41:17 AM

Each word coming off your mouth is fear, uncertainty and doubt, Meltdown.

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For the first time, Hookers are hooked on Phonics!!
April 11, 2002 1:44:53 AM

Good points, ok.
But nevertheless, I wanted an opinion on the article, you gave me one with full explanation, but it still does not differ from showing that Intel was spewing some FUD in there. I mean would you like me to one day make a classroom to train them against your processor's speed, claiming you OCed it without the retail fan (lie), then start spewing FUD about how you don't use the BIOS well to handle that OC until you finally got it, then even say you are misinformed, and that you calling your P4 a 2.4GHZ is false?
I doubt so, but that is how I perceive Intel is doing against AMD. This is indeed poor, very very poor marketting at best, and very unhealthy competition IMO. It's one thing comparing a product to the rival one, but it's another making FUD and even reporting things that can be easily digged off AMD's website to prove them false. After reading the emulator guy's article, I agree Chris Tom is a bad person. Yes he could shut his site down, but so far this article grabbed my attention.

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For the first time, Hookers are hooked on Phonics!!
April 11, 2002 2:17:14 AM

The marketing folks only need to score a 24% though =)

Jesus saves, but Mario scores!!!
April 11, 2002 2:40:26 AM

I agree it's poor marketing. but does HP or IBM do it better? I could see and translate the marketing materials sometimes but they were always full of exaggerations, attacking the weak points, lies. I felt Sun did it worst. Is there any unbiased advertisement? training materials intended for resellers cannot but be more biased. hm too many hours staying in THGC. I feel dizzy.

Searching for the true, the beautiful, and the eternal
April 11, 2002 3:48:31 AM

Quote:
But nevertheless, I wanted an opinion on the article,


You missed it? That post had more opinion than Bin Laden has skinny.

<font color=blue>If you don't buy Windows, then the terrorists have already won!</font color=blue> - Microsoft
April 11, 2002 11:56:04 AM

From my post
Quote:
you gave me one with full explanation

And I admitted you gave me one without Bin Laden's skinnyness!

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For the first time, Hookers are hooked on Phonics!!
April 11, 2002 3:09:44 PM

Folks
FUD is practiced by every company. Every Time Jerry sanders speaks he spreads FUD about Intel. Intel have sent this presentation out to their folks, not end users. And, irrespective of what people say, the PR system is every bit as much, if not more bullshit han the system it is trying to replace. If it were about true performance, how does it come about that AMD picked numbers suspiciously close to the Megahertz ratings of the P4's they are roughly priced against? If they truly believed in it, they would have applied a performance rating to every product they have, not just a select few, and there would have been a clear definition as to how the numbers are calculated. Saying it is the would be performance of a thunderbird clocked at the given megahertz is possibly the stupidest metric I have ever heard of. 1. There is no thunderbird at that 2100 MHz, there never will be , so the number really tells us nothing. 2. They assume performance ramps linearly with freq, it does not. If their current philosphy is applied in reverse, a 100 MHz Thunderbird would be of equivalent performance to a roughly 350 Mz Palomino? 3. They have still not provided a method by which to gauge Intel/anyone elses processors against these metrics. MHz is not perfect, but it's no worse a metric than these silly numbers.
Also, for the guy on the first page, no, people who work for Intel need not necessarily be speech impaired, but it makes no difference either way.
April 11, 2002 3:36:09 PM

Well said, good sir.

<font color=blue>If you don't buy Windows, then the terrorists have already won!</font color=blue> - Microsoft
April 11, 2002 8:10:23 PM

Well I didn't say anything good about Jerry Sanders, I had read some of his speeches and I know he isn't a nice talker. But it isn't FUD, there is no fear in what he's saying, he's just overstretching the truth and using harsh words. Intel on the other hand, says false things about AMD (Palomino 1.67GHZ the max 0.18m, performance of XP2000 below 2GHZA) and tries to persuade people to think that way, resulting in more uneducated masses. If only more people were like AMD's workers, we'd have a much better educated system for IT, more people would know the pros and cons of each processor, and at least won't deal with returning a machine that wasn't faster than their P3... (1.5GHZ+SDRAM Dells anyone?)
Yes the PR rating is very messy, but MHZ is too thanks to Intel's move on the P4's architecture, however regardless of what AMD says, this is just backbone in case Intel tried to sue them or use false arguments against their PR rating, which they are doing on their slides, while AMD's website clearly shows PR is to Tbird. Although we all see it as more linear with P4 speeds, an XP2200 IS the 2.2GHZ P4 competitor and are hand in hand. I don't see why competition here isn't acceptable by using the PR to identify it. AMD only did this for the masses to tell them how no MHZ is everything, but if they remained with no PR, would you look at a 1.8GHZ Palomino the same way as a PR2200 does against a 2.4GHZ P4, say?

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For the first time, Hookers are hooked on Phonics!!
April 12, 2002 10:02:45 AM

Badmouthing your competitors products is spreading FUD, it's as simple as that. Intel have never badmouthed AMDs products, they have a policy of never commenting on them in public. And even this issue is not an attack on AMD's products, it is showing up the misleading elements in the PR rating. AMD tell us MHz means nothing, and Intel are entitled to say that PR ratings mean nothing. Intel does not say that AMD's pr rating is not a comparison tpo Thunderbird, what they are calling out is the fact that no such Thunderbird exists, and that AMD have conveniently decided to assign the PR numbers to their processors strangely similar to the MHz rating of the P4. Finally, the reason that it is not acceptable for AMD to assign numbers arbitrarily, which is what they are doing, because they do not know the performance characteristics of a Thunderbird at the frequency in question. They bump up the rating at a rate of 100, for every 66 MHz clockspeed boost the AXP gets - pretty soon, they will start bumping it up by 100 for every 50 MHz increment, and then 40, etc, etc.....there is no structure in this rating. At least we can pick up a 2.2 GHz Northwood, and state that it runs at 2.2 GHZ. We pick up an AXP, and all we can say is that AMD have assigned an arbitray number to it, which is based on a number that AMD have never been able to achieve? The other factor is that AMD ranted on enough about leading in the GHz era when they hit 1G ahead of Intel, and now, they tell us it is meaningless.
April 12, 2002 11:24:03 AM

There's a difference between marketing and FUD. My father is head of marketing for Ericsson. Ericsson makes, among other things, mobile phones, switches, and routers. Nokia also makes mobile phones, and Cisco makes switches and routers. Ericsson doesn't badmouth these companies' products, they just give consumers the facts and say "Take it or leave it". It's up to the consumer to decide for themselves what they want.

I think both AMD and Intel are guilty of this. And as for this 'Intel fanboy', 'NVidia fanboy' stuff: I think people should buy what they're comfortable with. I bought a GeForce 3 because I wanted to. The Radeon 8500 may be faster, in fact it probably is, but it wouldn't be the same to me. I'm proud of my GeForce 3. Nothing will change that. If ATI had gotten to me first, I would feel the same way about them. I'm not sure if I'm making sense, but you guys should know what I mean.

To be honest, I'm sick of these wars (AMD vs. Intel, NVidia vs. ATI). It's just so ridiculous. I kind of like the 'General Mayhem' section of Hard|OCP's forums. People don't really talk about computers, they talk about life. Some of the conversations are insightful, others are downright hilarious. I just don't think we should get our knickers in a twist if somebody wants to buy Intel (or AMD). I'm guilty of it as well; I spent 10 minutes verbally abusing my school's sysadmin because he's buying P4/SDRAM computers for our computer lab. It's not the end of the world.

My $0.02.

Kidane


Det finns inget dåligt väder - bara dåliga kläder
April 12, 2002 11:49:13 AM

Do you know what badmouthing and FUD mean? FUD means when you spread information that is either false, that presents fear uncertainty and doubt in it. Badmouthing is when you totally disgrace the other company, like Jerry Sanders does.
Intel spread FUD, that's how it is.
I know PR is messy again, but the point of ratings is to do so, simulate the performance of X level processor. I mean if they were able to get thunderbirds out at such MHZ levels, wouldn't they have done so? No, so instead they chose the PR to "simulate". It can't be perfect, since some areas are much better on the AXP such as SSE apps. But the competition between a XP2200 and a 2.2GHZ P4 is on par, a XP2400 is also on par with the 2.4GHZ P4. As long as we can see a simulated numbered comparison, doing competition, I am fine with it. Wait till Hammer and we'll see how the PR becomes!

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For the first time, Hookers are hooked on Phonics!!
April 12, 2002 3:36:16 PM

We do have an 'Other' forum, you know. But if you don't like (.Y.) it might not be the place for you :wink:

<font color=blue>If you don't buy Windows, then the terrorists have already won!</font color=blue> - Microsoft
!