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Enough is Enough!

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May 13, 2002 11:25:45 AM

AMDMeltdown thinks that I'm a troll, but how can I be a troll when I'm building a P4 system in 3 or 4 weeks? Yes, you heard me right!

Beside that, I'm recommending the P4 1.6A to all value seekers across Tom's Hardware Community, SharkeyExtreme Forums and HardOCP's HardForum. I'm even helping people understand that the DDR loss of performance myth is just that, a myth. Even the i845D can match RDRAM performance at high clock speeds. I have 9 links readily about how the SiS DDR platform matches or exceeds RDRAM in performance at stock speed and that it can overclock to match PC1066 speeds if anyone has any doubts .

With an Asus P4S533 (which is cheaper than most AMD-compatible boards, I might add) and some Samsung DDR RAM, you can have a system that's as fast or faster than RDRAM and overclocks just as readily for a good $50-$75 less. Is that value or what?

Here are the basic prices in Canadian dollars:

Asus P4S533 $169
512MB Samsung PC2700 $214 (extremely overclockable)
P4 1.6A $232

For a good $615 CDN, which should be less than $400USD, you get a killer CPU and RAM upgrade that's almost guarantee to overclock to 2.4GHz.

Alright? Happy?

Enough is enough!

:wink: <b><i>"A penny saved is a penny earned!"</i></b> :wink:

More about : question

May 13, 2002 11:31:28 AM

You lost me... Your name is AMD Man yep you speak Intel eww =P
Just kidding nice little bit of information you got there

Be sure to post some benchmarks of that system when you build it or if there are any out there with that config I would like to see

I have always used AMD but I have been thinking about trying Intel out not quite sure though

AMD XP 1900+
A7V-333
Geforce 3 TI 200
Related resources
May 13, 2002 11:48:31 AM

heh
keep this up u will have to change your name *winks*



Today on Toms: Trisexual hamsters, anal applications of peanut butter and Marrige councilling!
May 13, 2002 11:49:13 AM

If only Fredi could hear you!!!
Meltdown is an idiot, I told you, don't base your intelectual knowledge on what he says about you. The guy is depressed, he thinks at his age of puberty he becomes in rage... I can't help but wonder if he gets PMS too...

--
Intel had 2.2GHZ Willies left...I bought one, it powered my entire neighborhood! :smile:
May 13, 2002 1:08:44 PM

I can find as many benchmark show that I850 is still the fastest with Pc1066 vs any DDR.

cheap, cheap. Think cheap, and you'll always be cheap.AMD version of semi conducteur industrie
May 13, 2002 1:12:03 PM

Please find new benchmark, they are all old before Pc1066

cheap, cheap. Think cheap, and you'll always be cheap.AMD version of semi conducteur industrie
May 13, 2002 1:14:07 PM

Enough = Enough? :eek: 

Must be that new math...

<font color=blue>Hi mom!</font color=blue>
May 13, 2002 1:28:13 PM

Do not pay attention to AMDMeltdown. He is a troll.

"Just the facts ma'am"
May 13, 2002 3:56:25 PM

Where? Links please?

:wink: <b><i>"A penny saved is a penny earned!"</i></b> :wink:
May 13, 2002 6:25:40 PM

Quote:
Do not pay attention to AMDMeltdown. He is a troll.

yeah man, ignore me!


"<b>AMD/VIA!</b>...you are <i>still</i> the weakest link, good bye!"
May 13, 2002 7:34:01 PM

AMD_Man good choice there! But if you can wait, dual channel ddram boards will arrive in a couple of months...SiS 655 chipset is expected to be released in Quarter 3. Supports both DDR266 and DDR333 SDRAM, giving a whooping memory bandwidths of 4.2Gb/s and 5.4Gb/s respectively. :cool:
May 13, 2002 8:15:00 PM

Not to mention incredible low latency!

--
Intel had 2.2GHZ Willies left...I bought one, it powered my entire neighborhood! :smile:
May 13, 2002 9:09:28 PM

Perhaps, we'll have to see. It all depends on whether the dual-channel implementation can help the latency as well as the i850. The fact that it's a different memory technology and a different company doing it could change how it pans out. But I'd be tempted to agree with you.

Via chipsets have the lowest latency from what I've seen, I wouldn't mind seeing a dual-channel DDR platform from them. Or a quad-channel RDRAM platform? Or a quad-channel DDR platform? Or a- sorry, got carried away.

Anyhow, we'll have to see how Via, SiS and Ali handle Hammer, I'd like to see some rather varied options from the three of them.

<font color=blue>Hi mom!</font color=blue>
May 14, 2002 1:28:17 AM

I agree with you. It's really up to the companies who befriend Intel except VIA. I however would not understand why Dual Channel DDR might cause higher latencies, over Dual Channel RDRAM PC1066.
However if SiS is really a big fan of P4, then I expect them not to disappoint us with their first DC DDR chipset ever, as they did with DDR333, SiS645,saving over 100$CDN.

I wouldn't however expect any retreat from VIA on Hammer, after all they are AMD's best chipset friend, they always like to come out with chipsets to make the RAM ready, pushing AMD to set their CPUs at higher FSBs if needed. For AMD+VIA, at the moment, they are a good team. For SiS and Intel, excellent friends, both legal and good for any budget or overclocker's line, starting soon with RDRAM chipset or DC DDR. (I would not use DC DDR unless using DDR 333, and that also if latency is lower or equal to DDR266)

--
Intel had 2.2GHZ Willies left...I bought one, it powered my entire neighborhood! :smile:
May 14, 2002 5:36:09 PM

Quote:
I however would not understand why Dual Channel DDR might cause higher latencies, over Dual Channel RDRAM PC1066.


I simply mean that the i850's dual-channel might decrease latency by 30% over single-channel, while SiS's dual-channel might only give a decrease of 25%, and dual-channel DDR only gives 20%. Or dual-channel DDR might give a 45% decrease.

(Purely random numbers)

Quote:
However if SiS is really a big fan of P4, then I expect them not to disappoint us with their first DC DDR chipset ever, as they did with DDR333, SiS645,saving over 100$CDN.


I've been impressed with SiS's products of late, I expect it to continue as well. Looks like the P4 will have some good support the second half of this year.

Quote:
I wouldn't however expect any retreat from VIA on Hammer


Not at all, but if they follow the way things have been in the past, their first chipset won't be worth getting. The second should be interesting.

Quote:
starting soon with RDRAM chipset or DC DDR.


It will definitely be interesting to see the differences between a DC RDRAM chipset and a DC DDR chipset for the same processor and from the same company. Should reveal some about the two different memory technologies (SDRAM and RDRAM). I very much look forward to it.

<font color=blue>Hi mom!</font color=blue>
May 14, 2002 5:47:30 PM

Quote:
Not at all, but if they follow the way things have been in the past, their first chipset won't be worth getting. The second should be interesting


Actually with the memory controler on die, there isnt much for via to [-peep-] up, and performance should be relativly the same across the board.

(you know the difference between a kt266 and a kt266a is ONLY the memory controler right?)

Those damn southbridges tweaks will really make via boards speed up ;-)

:wink: The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark :wink:
May 14, 2002 6:57:55 PM

Dammit, I keep thinking of traditional chipsets. In that case, screw Via :lol: 

<font color=blue>Hi mom!</font color=blue>
May 14, 2002 8:11:42 PM

This is from Newegg ...

Memory - PC (DDR)
CORSAIR MEMORY 256MB PC3000 DDR RAM 333MHz - OEMCMX256A-3000C2 DDR, PC3000 32x64, Non-ECC, 184-Pin, CAS2 -Unbuffered Requires DDR supported Motherboard - Lifetime Warranty. ETA 4/1/2002. N82E16820145402 $125.00 $125.00
Motherboards - Intel
ASUS P4S533 Motherboard for Intel P4 478 OEM Specifications: Processor Socket 478 for FC-PGA2 Pentium® 4 1.4GHz to 2.2GHz+
Chipset: SiS 645DX North Bridge and SiS 961B South Bridge
ITE 8707F LPC Super I/O Chip
FSB 533/400 MHz
Memory 3 x DDR DIMM Sockets Max. 3GB unbuffered PC2700 / PC2100 /PC1600 DDR DRAM (PC 2700 Max. to 4 banks only)
Expansion Slots 1 x AGP 4X 6 x PCI
IDE Ports 2 x UltraDMA 133 /100/66
Audio C-Media CMI8738 6-chan S/PDIF-in/-out interface
SiS 961B integrated 10/100 Mbps Fast Ethernet
Form Factor ATX 12.0" x 8.6" (30.5cm x 21.8cm)
FOR BUNDLES ONLY! N82E16813131306 $99.00 $99.00
Processors - Intel Pentium 4
Intel Pentium 4 1.6A GHz 512K Socket 478 Processor 400MHz Processor Bus
Specifications:
CPU: 1.6A GHz
Type: Pentium 4
Cache: 512K
BUS: 400 MHz
Socket: 478 Retail (Box With Heatsink & Fan) N82E16819116136 $130.00 $130.00


Subtotal » $354.00


This is very interesting! Very tempting too! But... must.. hold... on... to... credit card... must... not ... take ... out... bones... take.. this credit card... and... cut.. it .. up bones. Bones: Jim i'm not a shredder i'm a doctor dammit.




<A HREF="http://www.anandtech.com/mysystemrig.html?id=9933" target="_new"> My Rig </A>
May 14, 2002 8:29:05 PM

Doesn't NewEgg have 512MB PC2700 Samsung DDR RAM? That's a better deal.

:wink: <b><i>"A penny saved is a penny earned!"</i></b> :wink:
May 14, 2002 10:02:09 PM

Congratulations.

Searching for the true, the beautiful, and the eternal
May 14, 2002 10:50:09 PM

too bad newegg doesnt make international shipments...

<b><font color=red>ATI</font color=red>'s drivers are like a broken faucet, they both keep on leaking...</b> :cool:
May 15, 2002 10:18:51 AM

Quote:
Dammit, I keep thinking of traditional chipsets. In that case, screw Via


Actually dont screw via.

The new hammer mobos will be [-peep-] awesome for one reason.


There is only 2 ways for mobo makers to differentiate themselves.

A: features
B: price

Which will give hammer users more robust motherboards with tons of cool extra [-peep-], or cheap fast mobos with no special crap.

NO memorycontroler competition to cause us to buy say a sis735 mobo which sucks only cause the mc is good.

:wink: The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark :wink:
May 15, 2002 4:59:27 PM

SiS is the one that's been announcing chipsets with USB2.0, Firewire, etc though. Via has always been a speed-only chipset maker. Once you take that away, there's not much else.

<font color=blue>Hi mom!</font color=blue>
a b à CPUs
May 16, 2002 1:34:39 AM

My last VIA motherboad was amazingly fast and unstable!

What's the frequency, Kenneth?
May 16, 2002 5:07:16 PM

The only Via board I've owned (Abit KT7a with the KT133a chipset) was very fast, but very stable. Actually, almost all of my friends have owned boards with Via chipsets, and we've all had stable systems. I wonder what you're doing wrong, Crash? :tongue:

And as a side note, I didn't even bother to install the 4-in-1 drivers.

<font color=blue>Hi mom!</font color=blue>
May 16, 2002 6:02:12 PM

My kt133 and kt133a mobos were uber stable and super fast, and I installed the 4 in 1's once.

;-)

:wink: The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark :wink:
a b à CPUs
May 16, 2002 9:06:15 PM

Maybe the fact that I use real hardware instead of the stuff you find in CompuUSA?

What's the frequency, Kenneth?
May 16, 2002 9:11:41 PM

Doh! What was I thinking. It's all my crappy hardware that made my computer so stable :eek: 

<font color=blue>Hi mom!</font color=blue>
a b à CPUs
May 16, 2002 10:36:22 PM

Yep. Manufacturers of the most popular hardware have learned to comprimise the performance of their products in order to maintain compatability with VIA chipsets. I wonder how fast a TI4600 would be if nVidia didn't have to make such concesions?

What's the frequency, Kenneth?
May 16, 2002 10:50:02 PM

I wonder how fast my 8500 would be if it actually worked? :tongue:

Sorry Crash, that argument just isn't going to fly.

<font color=blue>Hi mom!</font color=blue>
a b à CPUs
May 16, 2002 11:57:15 PM

You don't seem to remember 2 years ago when new drivers made hardware slow down to meet VIA specifications.

What's the frequency, Kenneth?
May 17, 2002 12:01:16 AM

You're right, I don't remember. Are you going to let problems of two years ago affect the hardware of today, though?

<font color=blue>Hi mom!</font color=blue>
a b à CPUs
May 17, 2002 2:13:51 AM

Crashman is kind of like myself. I have allways had Intel processors. First Via chipset fo me was the MVP, It basically sucked, slow, bad memory controller, and lots of incompatabilities.( Anyone care to argue???)

My next and last Via board was the ASUS P3V4x for the P3.
First agp4x was dissabled, even though it was one of its strong selling points, The 4x in the name. Then 4/way interleave on the memory was also dissabled. Along with it did'nt like my sound card at all. An Aureal Vortex2 which I still use.{Great sounding card) Too bad Creative sued them with frivilous suits until they went bankrupt from legal fees.
Now lets talk about the Soundblaster Live fiasco with Via chipsets, or the 686b southbridge corrupting data, or the saturated pci bus problems ALL VIA chipsets have had until recently, And they just recently released a fix for.

These are my personal experiences with Via. If 1 person can find this many problems with their chipsets, how does the whole industry rate????
Every VIA chipset for the Pentium brand of Cpu's has allways been a slow underperforming chipset. Plain and simple. Now add all of the bugs and incompatabilities and there is no choice but to say Via sux.
Now for all of the AMD owners out there . VIA is the best chipset, fastest chipset AVAILABLE. Compared to SIS and ALI, which until recently were even more pathetic performance wise than Via but they did not have as many bugs. And were usually more stable.(for cheap systems)

So why is everyone so down on Crashman for stating the obvious truth??? Is it because you don't want to hear the truth??? So you can go on living in your dream world of Via is the best because you own one????

Yes I saw the latest benchmarks for the Via chipset compared to the Intel chipset. Did you notice that the Intel system was running at PC800 instead of PC1066??? And that it had 4 128MB rimms instead of 2 256MB rimms which almost doubles latency of the Intel platform.. Sounds almost like a conspiracy to make the Via system seem faster.

Flame on if you can't handle the truth..........

Just my little rant for today.

I aint signing nothing!!!
May 17, 2002 2:17:49 AM

I'm afraid you and Crash were just unlucky. My KT266A runs perfectly fine.

Also the P4X333 is a solid performer against PC800 RDRAM P4s with tons of new features, with USB 2.0 as the highlight of it, so it's not like VIA sucks at P4s, they just have Intel fighting over useless lawsuits...

--
Luke, I am your father...but due to a bacon-slicing accident, your mother... :lol: 
a b à CPUs
May 17, 2002 2:24:06 AM

I still use those cards in my own sytems, and I've only seen them NOT work on VIA motherboards.

What's the frequency, Kenneth?
a b à CPUs
May 17, 2002 2:48:31 AM

How could you say that Crashman And I were unlucky, when everyone who bought MVP motherboard or a Apollo 133 or Apollo133a motherboard had the same problems? Many, many people had the Soundblaster problem ,not just Crashman and myself.

I aint signing nothing!!!
May 17, 2002 2:49:18 AM

Quote:
So why is everyone so down on Crashman for stating the obvious truth???


My "obvious truth" is that I've had no problems and good performance from my Via chipset, and my friends have had the same experiences. Sorry if you refuse to believe that so you can live in your polar opposite dream world :smile:

<font color=blue>Hi mom!</font color=blue>
May 17, 2002 9:17:47 AM

I like crash, and its funny to have the 3 most honred verterans debating in a thread lol.

But Im with burger on this one, via dosent neccicarily suck, and they are not less stable than other chipsets when set up properly.


And 9/10ths of via problems are either
A: user error(inexcusable)
B: old conflicting hardware(which is not a problem and crash is justified not buying via)

:wink: The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark :wink:
May 17, 2002 10:58:14 AM

I agree with Matisaro. I had the older Via chips. They took longer to setup but once they where setup Right. I had no problems.
May 17, 2002 1:04:38 PM

I'm with Crashman on this one. I've got a VIA chipset running my 750MHz Pentium at work. It's the biggest PoS I've ever had. It took at <i>least</i> 5 motherboard driver updates before the system finally ran stable for more than 24 hours straight, and even then it took months later before I could run the system for a week straight. (I honestly don't remember the exact number of updates, but I do remember checking VIA's website <i>daily</i> hoping that they would finally have an update that would actually <i>fix</i> my problems.

I also had a severe incompatability between my VIA chipset motherboard and my Matrox G400 video card. (Which that specific video card was a <i>requirement</i> made by my company because we used software which took advantage of that specific card at the time. Stupid, but that was the way the software was written.) Simply, VIA's Win2K drivers for the AGP bus sucked. If you had a video card that actually allocated and used system memory, you could expect random lock-ups to be a frequent occurance because something in the drivers was causing memory leaks and/or memory corruption. There was a work around to fix it without needing the VIA drivers to actually work, but that required disabling the ability of the video card to access system memory, which rendered our software useless, so hell if that was a solution that I could actually use.

Even then, once I finally got <i>all</i> of that straightened out with constant firmware updates from VIA, I <i>still</i> don't dare put my sound card back in because that <i>still</i> screws up my stability badly. I know that I <i>could</i> buy a new sound card that doesn't have compatability problems with VIA, but hell if I want to spend my own money for my PC at work. Heh heh.

Yes, the vast majority of my problems with VIA were firmware, not hardware. And <i>no</i> amount of 'setting up properly' is going to fix that. I had some specific hardware requirements, and VIA simply couldn't provide compatability with stability. If the drivers are poorly written, you're screwed, and VIA did <i>not</i> do well writing <i>drivers</i> for <b>Win2K</b>.

So I'm with Crahsman. Buying a VIA product can be entirely hit or miss. Some people have little to no problems. Others have some of the worst computer maintanance experiences in the world. With VIA, it's just a complete gamble, and I refuse to roll those dice anymore. It'll take a <b>LOT</b> of incredibly positive press about the <i>quality</i> of VIA before I'll ever try one of their motherboards again. After all, it isn't like I don't have other options that work just as well.

Maybe VIA has improved since then. (I certainly hope so!) But if they want <i>my</i> business, they're going to have to prove without a shadow of a doubt that the past will not be repeated. If VIA wants my business, they have to regain my trust, and that takes time.

<pre><font color=orange><b>du hast den Sweater verkehrt an</b></font color=orange>
Oh my!</pre><p>
May 17, 2002 2:13:12 PM

Most of our chipsets here at work are VIA and we haven't had any problems with them. We got an Athlon once here but we sent it back. The PC never worked right...I am sure it had to do something to do with the VIA chipset.

<b><font color=green>Garbage Can?</font color=green></b>
May 17, 2002 3:52:03 PM

im with myself on this one...no...wait...nevermind :) 



*MadHatter's brain just got a blue screen of death*
May 17, 2002 4:02:03 PM

Ok, it's me and Mat against you and Crash. How shall we settle this...a nice game of Jedi Knight II perhaps?

<font color=blue>Hi mom!</font color=blue>
May 17, 2002 5:03:19 PM

Quote:
Ok, it's me and Mat against you and Crash. How shall we settle this...a nice game of Jedi Knight II perhaps?

That'd be wonderful! :) 

Care to send me a PC to run it on? :/ 

My system at work has <i>no</i> 3D acceleration (So why <i>does</i> my company want me re-writing an OpenGL visualization program in Python right now?) and no sound. My 'best' system at home is a Celeron 500 with a PCI (Savage4 I think...) graphics card and the system (the memory specifically I think) has overheating problems. (I hope that is all that is bothering it anyway, as one of these days I <i>do</i> intend to cut a hole into the case and plop in another fan.) It runs for about an hour at a time, give or take. :( 

So I haven't even <i>seen</i> Jedi Knight II yet. :/ 

I'd love to play it though. ;) 

(One of these days, when I pay off my dentist bills, my house repairs, my car repairs, and finish purchasing necesities for the new house, maybe <i>then</i> I'll finally manage to save up some cash for a new PC. I'm figuring maybe sometime in early 2003, what with Christmas and all falling into place just after I should finally manage to pay all of this off...)

<pre><font color=orange><b>du hast den Sweater verkehrt an</b></font color=orange>
Oh my!</pre><p>
a b à CPUs
May 17, 2002 9:13:25 PM

Ok , I will concede that the newer chipsets might be ok, and VIA finally got there shiet together after Intel refused to grant them a liscense for the P4.
But this does not mean that the problems with older VIA chipsets did not exist.Most have been documented by people who really know computers, and most have been acknowledged by VIA as a bug.
Now I personally push every system I have ever owned to the limit. All of my computers have been in the top 10 in their category,And most have been #1,2,or 3 in their default category. So I do know a little about computers.

My email is rick@purplesage.com if anyone is interested in looking up any of my scores on mad onion. Right now I'm the only one in my category(1550-1616 P3/G3TI200)<A HREF="http://service.madonion.com/compare?2k1=3457526" target="_new">http://service.madonion.com/compare?2k1=3457526&lt;/A>. Not bad for a $150US chip.

Now to settle this ,Never played Jedi Knight but Giants,Diablo2 or AOE Comquerers would do.

I aint signing nothing!!!
May 17, 2002 9:25:02 PM

Quote:
Ok, it's me and Mat against you and Crash. How shall we settle this...a nice game of Jedi Knight II perhaps?


Oh [-peep-] I own at that game, this should be fun heh.

:wink: The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark :wink:
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