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1.7ghz celly, official discussion here.

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May 15, 2002 3:20:52 PM

The celly did better than I expected, looks like the p4 celly is neck and neck with the 1.3 duron, nice.

Id like to see the celly on rdram when the latency will have more of an effect with the small cache.


:wink: The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark :wink:
May 15, 2002 3:37:54 PM

Well done Intel. Looks like Intel are closing in on AMD on all sides once and for all...well until Athlon (Barton-512kb L2 cache) becomes AMD's new budget chip and Hammer has a poke at the P4 Northwood.

<font color=purple>Ladies and Gentlemen, its...Hammer Time !</font color=purple>
May 15, 2002 3:46:14 PM

The duron is still the better buy simply for the fact you can upgrade the duron, the 1.7ghz celly has no upgrade path at all.

Edit, the celly uses the same socket as the northwood, ignore above post.

:wink: The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark :wink:
<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Matisaro on 05/15/02 09:29 AM.</EM></FONT></P>
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May 15, 2002 4:21:50 PM

Quote:
the 1.7ghz celly has no upgrade path at all.


Too slow Mat, I caught you :wink:

<font color=blue>Hi mom!</font color=blue>
May 15, 2002 4:28:40 PM

Bah, the forum went down before I could fix my mistake(literally hit reply then realized the northwood uses the same socket as the celly).

:wink: The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark :wink:
May 15, 2002 4:36:57 PM

I'm curious about where they go the prices of the CPUs? The prices I find on Pricewatchers shows the Celly 1.3 at $74, but the Duron 1.3 at $62, and the Celly 1.7 at $89. Also, the Athlon XP 1600+ at $74 , which is probably the best value of anything here.

With the Duron being replaced with the low end AXP cpus, and eventualy the entire XP line when T-bread and Barton come out (if Barton does), I still can't see a 1.7 Celly doing as well, as it's likely to be quite slower than any of the AXPs.

However, I was impressed with the new Celly. It didn't suck as much as I thought it might, and it's not as bad as I had origionaly thought.

I don't need an anti-virus program, I just boil my computer once a week.
May 15, 2002 5:28:17 PM

It looks like Intel is learning something form AMD and using same socket for across the board. I wouldn't be surprised if they used the same socket for Prescott or P5 what ever they try to call it.

KG

"640K ought to be enough for anybody." - Bill Gates.
May 15, 2002 5:37:55 PM

My fist thought was to LMAO. Intel finally builds a Celeron which can beat a Duron but only after the Duron has been announced to be discontinued.

After thinking about this some more I realized that Intel now has the faster high-end processor and also the faster budget processor.

I understand that AMD will eventually use today's Athlon XP as the new low-end processor when AMD rolls out the Thoroughbred as the near-term high-end processor. (Or will there be Thoroughbreds across the board?) Whatever the case, if AMD doesn't act quickly it will lose ground to Intel.

This isn't funny any more.

<b>I have so many cookies I now have a FAT problem!</b>
May 15, 2002 5:45:49 PM

Quote:
The celly did better than I expected, looks like the p4 celly is neck and neck with the 1.3 duron, nice.

Scary, isn't it? I certainly expected it to suck much worse than it did. Even the Wilty at 1.3GHz generally tied/beat the old Celeron. Freaky. What the hell is the world coming to? ;) 

<pre><font color=orange><b>du hast den Sweater verkehrt an</b></font color=orange>
Oh my!</pre><p>
P.S. I still want to see a Wilty compared to a Willamette and a Northwood though...<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by slvr_phoenix on 05/15/02 12:51 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
May 15, 2002 5:49:42 PM

Quote:
It looks like Intel is learning something form AMD and using same socket for across the board.

I hate to break it to you, but Intel <i>used</i> to do this. Only in recent years have they gone socket-happy, and I believe that was more or less just to prevent people from trying to stick new chips into old motherboards that wouldn't support them. One could even debate that AMD actually learned to use the same socket from Intel. (Anyone remember Sockets 5 and 7?)

<pre><font color=orange><b>du hast den Sweater verkehrt an</b></font color=orange>
Oh my!</pre><p>
May 15, 2002 7:02:53 PM

I would guess that at the low speed, the low latency of DDR Ram helped out the Wilty. Pair it with RDRAM, or SDRAM, and you'll probably not get anywhere near as much out of it.

They should have tested the Duron and Wilty with SDRAM too, as it is a cheep alternitive and likely to show up on some low end systems.

I don't need an anti-virus program, I just boil my computer once a week.
May 15, 2002 7:19:10 PM

Quote:
The duron is still the better buy simply for the fact you can upgrade the duron, the 1.7ghz celly has no upgrade path at all.

Edit, the celly uses the same socket as the northwood, ignore above post.

whoops! caught yourself talking out of you a$$ again? :smile:

"<b>AMD/VIA!</b>...you are <i>still</i> the weakest link, good bye!"
May 15, 2002 7:25:05 PM

That's true, some sick bastard might actually pair a Wilty with SDRAM just to save a buck. They'd probably use either onboard video or TNT2 video at that. Toss in a 20GB hard drive, a 40x CD ROM, and an OEM SB Live!, and you've got yourself a complete PoS. ... Err ... I mean 'low priced', high speed, 1.7GHz system.

<pre><font color=orange><b>du hast den Sweater verkehrt an</b></font color=orange>
Oh my!</pre><p>
May 15, 2002 7:29:39 PM

Yep, like always.

I like how the Duron is almost dead even with the Celeron at a few CPU related test. yet The P4 kills (almost double) the duron in memory and graphics. ROFL not even close at all.

"PS: intel subsidizes 3dmark2001, and it is well known its an intel friendly app." -Matisaro

You are limited to what your mind can perceive.
May 15, 2002 7:46:45 PM

Well, I'm glad to see that my dire predictions of the Wilty don't hold water as well as I thought. But one thing is for certain, and that is the Wilty might be left in the dust in the close result apps when the Duron moves to a 266MHz FSB later this year. Also, while I am not able to look at BestBuy.com since it is slow today, I doubt many P4 and Duron systems are outfitted with DDR, and in that case, the performance of both is seriously reduced. IMO, though, the Wilty will take the worst hit, much like it's big brother does. Again, that's my opinion.

-SammyBoy
May 15, 2002 8:04:19 PM

There won't be no Duron 266MHZ sadly.


--
Intel had 2.2GHZ Willies left...I bought one, it powered my entire neighborhood! :smile:
May 15, 2002 8:05:09 PM

It doesn't matter, once AthlonXPs become budget line, Intel is gone for... not even a Northwood Celly at 533MHZ FSB would win...

--
Intel had 2.2GHZ Willies left...I bought one, it powered my entire neighborhood! :smile:
May 15, 2002 8:07:42 PM

How odd, the chip came unlocked, yet they didn't use such advantage to try higher speeds, determine its OC. All they did is underclock.

I'd also like to see the big brothers thrown in the ring, as a Willy 1.7GHZ, Northy 1.6A, AthlonXP 1700+. The current results show only budget line, so we are more used into those scores, and think they are high. Once the big bros are in, the scores sound measily.

Oh god I forgot it was on DDR... I simply won't imagine SDRAM....

It did better, but geez, for a 400MHZ boost with still more cache than Duron, it wasn't AS MUCH.

--
Intel had 2.2GHZ Willies left...I bought one, it powered my entire neighborhood! :smile:
May 15, 2002 8:10:45 PM

Wow you should earn the award for designing the worst possible combo for Dell! I can imagine the prices lol!
The thing will arguably sell fast, those high speeds for low cost will sell well. If it is with DDR, it's not a bad budget buy indeed. But if it's with SDRAM, you might as well trash it... I still wanna see the big brothers compared to it. I want to see how a 1.7GHZ Willy did, so we'd know if the budget buy is THAT good, with DDR.

--
Intel had 2.2GHZ Willies left...I bought one, it powered my entire neighborhood! :smile:
May 15, 2002 8:16:26 PM

Most people who would want to OC the chip would likely buy a 1.6A northwood instead for an extra $75 or so.

Just think... 1.7 Wilty OCed to 2.1, PC133 ram at PC166,GF2 MX200 OCed 15%, 4x20 GB 5200 RPM Drives in RAID... Now there's a dream system for you.

I don't need an anti-virus program, I just boil my computer once a week.
May 15, 2002 8:26:26 PM

I hope I don't get this wrong but, is that a good system or not!

--
Intel had 2.2GHZ Willies left...I bought one, it powered my entire neighborhood! :smile:
May 15, 2002 9:24:13 PM

Northwoods at 533 beat AXPs.....Intel is gone for? Where they goin?

I sold my sig for $50.
May 15, 2002 9:31:28 PM

Overclocked SDR SDRAM? A GF2 MX200? 5400 RPM drives? It's like trying to soup up a Geo Metro to race at the Indy 500.

I don't need an anti-virus program, I just boil my computer once a week.
May 15, 2002 9:35:16 PM

It's an engineering sample, I doubt retail versions would come unlocked (though that'd help Intel in the budget sector).

<font color=blue>Hi mom!</font color=blue>
May 15, 2002 9:35:48 PM

He's talking in the low end market. A Celly might top out a Duron now, but the current Athlons are heading to replace the Durons now. The wilty shouldn't be able to top an AXP 1600+ in most benchmarks (check previous Duron/Celly reviews to see the difference between the Celly and the AXP)

I don't need an anti-virus program, I just boil my computer once a week.
May 15, 2002 9:49:19 PM

No, he said 533 Northwoods.....

I sold my sig for $50.
May 15, 2002 10:03:25 PM

Quote:
It's an engineering sample, I doubt retail versions would come unlocked (though that'd help Intel in the budget sector).

Yes but I think Eden's point was that with an unlocked CPU you can easily see how high the core can overclock, since you don't have to worry about instabilities in the memory, AGP, etc. It would have been nice to know how far the new Cellys can go.

Ritesh
a b à CPUs
May 15, 2002 10:14:57 PM

Well, the P4 Celeron sucks. Not as badly as some expected, but still, it sucks. We all knew it would suck

What's the frequency, Kenneth?
May 15, 2002 10:54:34 PM

533 Northwood Celly, which would not be the same as a 533 Northwood (Intel would make sure)

I don't need an anti-virus program, I just boil my computer once a week.
May 15, 2002 11:06:52 PM

How do you know the Specs on a 533FSB Northwood Celeron already? Edens coming out and saying that the Duron (based on AXP) will beat a p4 northwood 533 celeron in such a "matter of fact" fashion. When all it really is, is speculation. Not even based on hearsay or rumor.....just his opinion.....and to draw that conclusion when the current benches show a P4 533 beating AXPs? Elaborate, thats all. I think Im gettin sucked in to these stupid arguments on non existing products..."but when this, but when that"....lol Next you'll see me posting an opinion in a Hammer thread.

I sold my sig for $50.
May 15, 2002 11:40:30 PM

What in the hell are you talking about. I don't know if you read the latest reviews but 533FSB Northwood are kicking some AMD's you know what. So how are you coming up with this conclusion.

This sound like meltdown's statement only from AMD's side.

KG

"640K ought to be enough for anybody." - Bill Gates.
May 15, 2002 11:57:56 PM

Well, here is why I agree with him

The P4 NW Celly will likely have about the same performance boost that the NW had over the Willy (10%) due to the same reasons (Double L2 Cache at 256, steamlining, ect). Meanwhile, the Athlons that are built for the low end market to replace the durons will be exactly the same as the current AXPs, and simply priced into the value market. So, a current AXP is beat by the 533 FSB P4, but not so badly that it's little Celly brother will do the same.

If that isn't the case, Intel might have shot themselves in the foot, as the P4s will be harder to justify if a Celly is that much cheeper and not that much slower.

Fleedip 2002, Microsoft's answer to bugs.
May 16, 2002 12:40:15 AM

Theres a ton of ways to look at it, and everyone is as right as the next guy. Who's to say the Celeron thats released on a NW will have a 533fsb? Maybe they will keep the clock at 400...that and a cache reduction will keep the bullet out of intels foot....What if AMD slices some cache off their chip to cut costs? Who knows is all Im saying.....its all just speculation.......just like w/ t-bred and hammer. Closer we get to tbred the more we realize it isnt gonna be what we thought it would.....the "P4 Stopper". Now its the Hammers being talked up that way....But Hammer performance is just speculation also....show me a retail hammer benchmark, then tell me about its superior performance....cause opinions are like a$$holes....everybody has one.

I sold my sig for $50.
May 16, 2002 12:54:18 AM

Again refer to how bront took my statement.
I meant Celleron NW.
A plain Celly NW, might not in any way defy AthlonXPs. It will maintain a poor cache, it'll be a Willy in 0.13m. Add 533MHZ FSB, when you realize the thing won't use RDRAM well, and rather DDR, you'll see why I mean it'll still not be up to AXPs when they are budget. So in a way, if AMD does use AXPs as budget, it will be a long time before a Celeron beats something which used to be top of the line for AMD!

--
Luke, I am your father...but due to a bacon-slicing accident, your mother... :lol: 
May 16, 2002 1:39:15 AM

533 P4s are using DDR ram just fine. What do you think the first released clock speed of a NW celeron will be? Id say over 2ghz. Is it safe to say AXPs are done increasing clock speeds? Yep. Are P4NW 533s done? Nope. An AXP2100+ gonna beat a celeron533 at 2.8ghz? Doubt it, even w/ reduced cache. Nevermind a P4B....P4 2.4A is ahead of AXPs also.

I sold my sig for $50.
May 16, 2002 2:00:47 AM

Um, normally Matisaro would pounce in with semiconductor teachings and many more, but I'll say what I know:
The budget line of Tbred and Bartons are 0.13m. This means it can attain well over 2GHZ. Another thing, AMD had displayed a REAL-TIME hand-touching XP2800 2.2GHZ chip at CeBIT IIRC. This means AMD has not finished. And Tbirds at such speeds are well above a P4 Wilty's performance per PR-clock. So yes AMD CAN and easily will compete if they move their budget line using AXP Tbred/Bartons especially. Which also brings up Barton, IF it comes out, it will with 512K L2, this will possibly give up to 5-10% boosts in different apps, just a tad less than NW's sensitivity to it. This would mean the competition will be even fiercer for any Celly.

--
Luke, I am your father...but due to a bacon-slicing accident, your mother... :lol: 
May 16, 2002 2:22:57 AM

When you said
"It doesn't matter, once AthlonXPs become budget line, Intel is gone for... not even a Northwood Celly at 533MHZ FSB would win..."
You were referring to Tbred/Barton? 2 processors that havent even ran their course as AMD Flagships yet? LOL I was arguing against the current .15 Athlons.....which is why I said their clock increases were done....I guess you will be able to make the argument up as we go along since your original post was a little indescript. Might as well include hammers in there also.....When Hammers are Durons...WHOA! They will rock P4B's! heh :/ 

I sold my sig for $50.
May 16, 2002 2:31:10 AM

Its really a silly argument ..... and both sides are just opinion. No one knows the real roadmap. Or architectures either....we hold less water than a canaries bladder.

I sold my sig for $50.
May 16, 2002 2:58:16 AM

i found that celleron article... quite sad.
my thoughts were
"it took 400 extra Mhz just to get those results???"

and the 1.7 was even spanked at least once by its older brother in both 1.2 & 1.3 forms in lame encoding!

and i noticed matty or fatty saying how much better it would be with RDRAM...
thats all very well BUT

you have a look at the current P4 line of the big OEM's. dell, compac, gateway etc.
a large number of their P4 systems sell with measly sdram. in australia i know that the majority sell with sdram!
so you DREAMING if you think they will mate the celleron with rdram.
Its going to be sdram, integrated graphics or DDR if your lucky.

it does fit nicely with intels Mhz marketing though. i just feel very sorry for noobs who dont know any better.




Today on Toms: Trisexual hamsters, anal applications of peanut butter and Marrige councilling!
May 16, 2002 7:41:41 AM

Yes, uses the same socket/chipset (MB) and RAM. So now it is and interesting option if you are budget limited to buy a good MB+Celeron, and upgrade later to P4 without any changes. This will hurt AMD for sure (some of my friends buy AMD platform because now they can afford Duron buy they plan to upgrade to Barton next year).


DIY: read, buy, test, learn, reward yourself!
May 16, 2002 10:31:09 AM

Quote:
and i noticed matty or fatty saying how much better it would be with RDRAM...
thats all very well BUT


I would predict it performs the same or worse on rdram because the small cache doesnt hide rdrams latency well.

:wink: The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark :wink:
May 16, 2002 10:48:18 AM

i guess.
i suppose what i REALLY want to see is a comparitive benchmark of
1.8 wilty
1.8 willie
1.8A northie

on
sdram, ddr and rdram.


My Next Performance System!!! - P4 Celleron, 128k cache, SDRAM, Integrated graphics, 5400rpm HDD!
May 16, 2002 4:48:16 PM

Quote:
I would predict it performs the same or worse on rdram because the small cache doesnt hide rdrams latency well.


I agree, but I think the hardware prefetch hides the latency more than the L2 does.


EDIT:
I need to be more careful what my clipboard contains :tongue:

<font color=blue>Hi mom!</font color=blue><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by FatBurger on 05/16/02 01:58 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
May 16, 2002 5:45:45 PM

<A HREF="http://www.anandtech.com/cpu/showdoc.html?i=1622&p=1" target="_new">Anandtech</A> shows a slightly different picture, one that is better at illustrating the Wilty's performance compared to its big brothers and competetors, as well as what an OC to 133MHz FSB does. Again, Anandtech outshines THG in pure journalistic ability.

But in the end, it's apparent that the Wilty does suck, as does the Duron. But, the budget line for AMD will soon be the AXP line, and already is, considering the AXP 1600+ is only $70, which means that it will be on a 266MHz FSB, which will trounce anything but the Northwood. This winter should be interesting. Why does the summer always have to be so damn boring and slow in the computer world? (rhetorical question)

-SammyBoy
May 16, 2002 5:56:01 PM

As of right now we don't see AXPs as budget even AMD isn't seeing this as budget. So why speculate this what's going to happen in the future, just look at it as of Intel Best vs AMD's Best and Intel's Best Budget vs AMD's Best Budget. And you will see the point that currently AMD is loosing on both fronts. When AXP comes in the budget we don't know what Intel's going to have best as their budget processor.

KG

"640K ought to be enough for anybody." - Bill Gates.
May 16, 2002 5:59:41 PM

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have 2 surveys that went through the SongDisk process. In processing the reports we noticed that the credit count in the green sheet is not matching up. I've done all I can do to solve this. Can I get someone to review the data to see what the problem is?




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I agree, but I think the hardware prefetch hides the latency more than the L2 does.


Yeah, Im gonna need those tps reports by friday, yeeah, could you come in on saturday, thatd be great.


While I think that prefetch helps more than cache on the northwood, I dont know with the celly, 128k l2 is pretty damn small. Many more memory accesses, and since performance is already low ddrs latency adds more imo than rdrams bandwidth.(but we need benchies!)

:wink: The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark :wink:
May 16, 2002 7:07:04 PM

Quote:
As of right now we don't see AXPs as budget even AMD isn't seeing this as budget.

As long as AMD prices their high-end processors at less than $200, they're considered budget by me and by many others. An outstanding value for performance, yes, but budget due to compromises on thermal protection, fragility, PSU sensitivity, lack of a solid chipset to go with it, etc. If you had the money, it usually made sense to go Intel because you got approximately the same speed (depending on the app) but you got a few more features thrown in there. Currently, of course, Intel holds the hand in both speed and extras.

That's why the Duron never made sense to me. What's the point of buying a Duron when you can spend a few more bucks and get four times the L2 cache? I mean, if you can only afford a Duron, by definition that usually means you can afford the faster Athlon too because it's only a few bucks more! Isn't that what budget processor means? Processors for people with tight budgets?? Both the Duron and Athlon fit in that category.

The higher end Intel CPUs have always been out of the budget category, whereas the Celerons have clearly been budget. The Athlon has nearly always been a budget processor compared to Intel, except for when the XPs were first introduced and priced much higher. But now even the AXPs are cheap budget processors except for the 2100+.

AMD won't be able to turn a nice profit until they price their CPUs much higher (an attempt they made with the AXP but had to back off on when Intel whipped out the Northwood), but they can't price them higher as long as people believe megahertz rules. So AMD's in a bit of a bind and they're betting the farm on Hammer.

Ritesh
May 16, 2002 9:00:05 PM

Quote:
Yeah, Im gonna need those tps reports by friday, yeeah, could you come in on saturday, thatd be great.


lol
I had a part of a helpdesk call on my clipboard, instead of your original comment. Fixed it now.

<font color=blue>Hi mom!</font color=blue>
May 16, 2002 10:27:56 PM

Quote:
AMD won't be able to turn a nice profit until they price their CPUs much higher (an attempt they made with the AXP but had to back off on when Intel whipped out the Northwood)

Actualy, at release, the 1500+ was cheeper from most stores than the T-bird 1.4, and the 1600+ was about the same. The Palmino was cheeper for AMD to make however, and more resistant to damage resulting in less RMAs, so it was a more profitable chip.

What is dragging AMD down is not their CPU division, which made quite a bit of money, it is their other ventures, such as Flash Memory.

Fleedip 2002, Microsoft's answer to bugs.
May 16, 2002 10:57:11 PM

Personaly, I am interested in the upcoming Northwood .13 256 L2 Cellys. Those would seem like worthwile budget chips, especialy because they would seem to be highly OCable. The performance wouldn't be on par with the current Northwoods, but it would likely be better than an equivilanly clocked Willy P4 (same L2, NW tweeks as well). If they can get the price under 100 for a 2 GHz NW Celly, they are certiantly worth a look. Especialy for the budget consumer who would like to be able to move to a P4 later.

Anandtech did do a good job with the article, compairing it with an old Willy and AXP. The THG article, with it only doing Cellys and Durons, made the Wilty look much better, as it won most benches. With the P4 willy and AXP, it tells a much different story.

Also, I noticed the price descrepancies between THG and Anandtech. Anandtech reported the Wilty at a higher price than THG, THG reported the Duron at a higher price that Anandtech. None of the numbers were close to what Pricewatch said, so makes you wonder where they got them.

Fleedip 2002, Microsoft's answer to bugs.
!