destroyed arrows

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I'm working out a Prestige Class, mostly for campaign world flavor,
that's essentially a close-combat archer. One thing that I'd like to
work into the class, swiped from a comic book actually, is the ability
to relaod using arrows stuck in other people. The PHB states that arrows
that hit are considered destroyed, though, which is problematic.

Any ideas on if I can work this ability in somehow? I was thinking of
interpreting "destroyed" as a generalization, and giving the archer a
percentage chance of pulling out an arrow intact, maybe a percentage
that gets higher with the level.

Would this ability break any kind of check and balance that I'm missing?

thanks in advance,

H

 

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Henry Chen wrote:
> I'm working out a Prestige Class, mostly for campaign world flavor,
> that's essentially a close-combat archer. One thing that I'd like to
> work into the class, swiped from a comic book actually, is the ability
> to relaod using arrows stuck in other people. The PHB states that arrows
> that hit are considered destroyed, though, which is problematic.
>
> Any ideas on if I can work this ability in somehow? I was thinking of
> interpreting "destroyed" as a generalization, and giving the archer a
> percentage chance of pulling out an arrow intact, maybe a percentage
> that gets higher with the level.
>
> Would this ability break any kind of check and balance that I'm missing?
>
> thanks in advance,
>
> H

As critical hits specify particularly good hits (say, getting between 2
pieces or armour, or punching through a particuarly weak piece maybe?)
then why not give the PrC a class ability which means that every
critical hit from him leaves the arrow still useable? He'd still get to
use it often enough but it would remain a cool thing (rather than
becoming a bit run-of-the-mill if he did it evrery time).

You'd then need some sort of check to pull the arrow out (maybe base it
on how disarm / grabbing items works for worn objects?) and some extra
damage to the unfortunate target should the check succeed - but I guess
you've got that covered

 

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In 3rd ed, if you wanted to go at it this way, then I'd just say that
it's possible to make arrows stronger than usual (of denser wood or...
I dunno, something!!) but that it costs double to make them and you can
only enchant them in batches of 25 rather than 50 (because they're
denser, or whatever), effectively doubling the cost of magic ones as
well. You'd have to up the Craft DC accordingly I guess (but I'm no
expert on Craft rules).

This would then let you extend the 50% not destroyed chance to when
these ones hit as well (as 50% not destroyed means that, on average,
you get to use them twice).

 

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"Henry Chen" <mr_o_chen@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:mr_o_chen-400485.20073421062005@news.charter.net...
> I'm working out a Prestige Class, mostly for campaign world flavor,
> that's essentially a close-combat archer. One thing that I'd like to
> work into the class, swiped from a comic book actually, is the ability
> to relaod using arrows stuck in other people. The PHB states that arrows
> that hit are considered destroyed, though, which is problematic.
>
> Any ideas on if I can work this ability in somehow? I was thinking of
> interpreting "destroyed" as a generalization, and giving the archer a
> percentage chance of pulling out an arrow intact, maybe a percentage
> that gets higher with the level.

Well, the 2E way *I* would handle it would be to force a person taking that
type of character to take bowyer/fletcher as a non-weapon proficiency, and
have his OWN arrows be "tougher than normal"(he uses fancy construction
techniques). He can pull his OWN arrows from the chests of people, but not
just regular ones.

--
Jeff Goslin - MCSD - www.goslin.info
It's not a god complex when you're always right

 

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"Henry Chen" <mr_o_chen@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:mr_o_chen-400485.20073421062005@news.charter.net...
> I'm working out a Prestige Class, mostly for campaign world flavor,
> that's essentially a close-combat archer. One thing that I'd like to
> work into the class, swiped from a comic book actually, is the ability
> to reload using arrows stuck in other people. The PHB states that arrows
> that hit are considered destroyed, though, which is problematic.
>
> I was thinking of
> interpreting "destroyed" as a generalization, and giving the archer a
> percentage chance of pulling out an arrow intact, maybe a percentage
> that gets higher with the level.

Would suspect that 'destroyed' would be better read as 'unusable', since the
arrow in question would have most likely punched through some hardened
armor, thereby dulling the arrowhead and withering the shaft. Pulling it
out would increase that damage, along with flexing the shaft and adding more
wear to the arrowhead. Then again, seeing it in movies where the
hero/heroine in question does what you're describing doesn't make it seem so
implausible.
>
> Would this ability break any kind of check and balance that I'm missing?
>
Only if you're willing to invite the possibilty of 'unlimited ammo' by the
PrC Archer.

> Any ideas on if I can work this ability in somehow?

Hmm, percentile on retrieval sounds good. Throw in an increased chance at
missing (referencing above explanation) since the arrow will be at least a
little out of alignment.

-==-
Jerry Chesko

 

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Jeff Goslin wrote:
> "Henry Chen" <mr_o_chen@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:mr_o_chen-400485.20073421062005@news.charter.net...
> > I'm working out a Prestige Class, mostly for campaign world flavor,
> > that's essentially a close-combat archer. One thing that I'd like to
> > work into the class, swiped from a comic book actually, is the ability
> > to relaod using arrows stuck in other people. The PHB states that arrows
> > that hit are considered destroyed, though, which is problematic.
> >
> > Any ideas on if I can work this ability in somehow? I was thinking of
> > interpreting "destroyed" as a generalization, and giving the archer a
> > percentage chance of pulling out an arrow intact, maybe a percentage
> > that gets higher with the level.
>
> Well, the 2E way *I* would handle it would be to force a person taking that
> type of character to take bowyer/fletcher as a non-weapon proficiency, and
> have his OWN arrows be "tougher than normal"(he uses fancy construction
> techniques). He can pull his OWN arrows from the chests of people, but not
> just regular ones.

I actually quite like this idea. There's a long tradition of
archer-type superheroes making their own arrows.

Laszlo

 

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Geoff Watson wrote:
> "Henry Chen" <mr_o_chen@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:mr_o_chen-400485.20073421062005@news.charter.net...
> > I'm working out a Prestige Class, mostly for campaign world flavor,
> > that's essentially a close-combat archer. One thing that I'd like to
> > work into the class, swiped from a comic book actually, is the ability
> > to relaod using arrows stuck in other people.

My first question is - why? Is it extra fun to pull arrows out of
people? This would probably a standard action that draws AoOs - why
would I do that instead of using a free action to load the arrow from a
quiver?

If I'm prone to running out of arrows, I'd buy and carry more, and
recover arrows after combat. If I still run out of arrows, I'd resort
to a melee weapon.

> > Any ideas on if I can work this ability in somehow? I was thinking of
> > interpreting "destroyed" as a generalization, and giving the archer a
> > percentage chance of pulling out an arrow intact, maybe a percentage
> > that gets higher with the level.
> >
> > Would this ability break any kind of check and balance that I'm missing?
>
> The main problem is re-using magic arrows, which are 1/50th of the cost
> of permanent magic weapons because they can only be used once.

In addition to what Geoff said, most of the damage to the arrow happens
either when the arrow hits the target, or the target falls dead on the
arrow and breaks the shaft. Why would the archer's level affect the
damage to the arrow?

I'd go with some chance (either flat, or based on damage done) that the
used arrow is usable, and give the archer a check to determine whether
he needs to bother trying to pull out the arrow (so he doesn't waste
time pulling out arrows that his experience tells him are dulled/broken)

 

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In article <1119441999.014502.143100@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu wrote:

> Jeff Goslin wrote:
> > "Henry Chen" <mr_o_chen@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:mr_o_chen-400485.20073421062005@news.charter.net...
> > > I'm working out a Prestige Class, mostly for campaign world flavor,
> > > that's essentially a close-combat archer. One thing that I'd like to
> > > work into the class, swiped from a comic book actually, is the ability
> > > to relaod using arrows stuck in other people. The PHB states that arrows
> > > that hit are considered destroyed, though, which is problematic.
> > >
> > > Any ideas on if I can work this ability in somehow? I was thinking of
> > > interpreting "destroyed" as a generalization, and giving the archer a
> > > percentage chance of pulling out an arrow intact, maybe a percentage
> > > that gets higher with the level.
> >
> > Well, the 2E way *I* would handle it would be to force a person taking that
> > type of character to take bowyer/fletcher as a non-weapon proficiency, and
> > have his OWN arrows be "tougher than normal"(he uses fancy construction
> > techniques). He can pull his OWN arrows from the chests of people, but not
> > just regular ones.
>
> I actually quite like this idea. There's a long tradition of
> archer-type superheroes making their own arrows.
>
> Laszlo
>

hmmm..I wonder if you can stop a dragon with a boxing glove arrow

It's funny - I had the idea of them making their own warbows, but it
never occured to me to do the same for the arrows. And you could roll
for breakage at the time of the pull attempt (no point in checking every
arrow, just do it when it matters); it sounds like it's workable. I kind
of like the critical hit idea too, because it makes sense, but I
imagined it to be a little more commonplace, as oppposed to one arrow in
20 that he could potentially pull. And the grabbing rules sound about
right. Maybe for normal arrows?

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 20:07:34 -0700, Henry Chen wrote:

> Any ideas on if I can work this ability in somehow? I was thinking of
> interpreting "destroyed" as a generalization, and giving the archer a
> percentage chance of pulling out an arrow intact, maybe a percentage
> that gets higher with the level.

Just a quick idea: re-introduce the different type of arrows 2E used for
longbows. You basically had the war arrow, which did 1d8 damage, en the
flight arrow, which had longer range but only did 1d6 damage. The war
arrows, with their large, wide, often barbed heads are all but impossible
to remove intact (although I'd allow for the salvage of the actual heads,
avoiding a stopover at the local blacksmith for new ones, and allowing a
fletcher to slowly rebuild a supply of arrows). The flight arrows are
similar to modern target arrows, and would have a fair chance of surviving
a hit, because they have narrow, smooth heads, maybe 50% (bear in mind
that the target they struck me well fall on top of the arrow, which isn't
good for it).

Rob

 

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"Henry Chen" <mr_o_chen@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:mr_o_chen-400485.20073421062005@news.charter.net...
> I'm working out a Prestige Class, mostly for campaign world flavor,
> that's essentially a close-combat archer. One thing that I'd like to
> work into the class, swiped from a comic book actually, is the ability
> to relaod using arrows stuck in other people. The PHB states that arrows
> that hit are considered destroyed, though, which is problematic.
>
> Any ideas on if I can work this ability in somehow? I was thinking of
> interpreting "destroyed" as a generalization, and giving the archer a
> percentage chance of pulling out an arrow intact, maybe a percentage
> that gets higher with the level.
>
> Would this ability break any kind of check and balance that I'm missing?
>

The main problem is re-using magic arrows, which are 1/50th of the cost
of permanent magic weapons because they can only be used once.

Geoff.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

What about causing damage when you pull the arrow out? Arrows with
barbed heads, especially, would hurt like unto a mother if they
were ripped out instead of carefully removed after combat was
over. It's a pretty cool mental image for a close combat archer,
too - sometimes he shoots an arrow, sometimes he rips an arrow
out of an enemy's flesh to re-use it, but no matter what he
does he's hurting his opponents.

Modelling it, now there's the problem. Might not be worth it,
when you get right down to it. I mean, I can think of two issues
right off the top of my head.

1) How do you decide which arrows penetrated far enough to cause
extra damage when they're removed? The hit points system doesn't
really lend itself to determining that sort of detail about each
wound.

2) Won't every PC want to start ripping arrows out if you
allow one character type to do it? Not necessarily all
the time, because in most cases the PC's normal weapons
or spells or whatever will be a better choice, but I
don't think you can make much of a case for "Well, this
specific class knows how to rip an arrow out of an opponent,
but no one else can do it." It just doesn't make sense.

Pulling arrows out of your enemies and re-using them is
definitely a cool image, whether it does extra damage or
not. Very Legolas. I don't know if it has or deserves a
place in a game, though, and I don't know how to model
it if it does.

Pete

 

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Peter Meilinger wrote:
> What about causing damage when you pull the arrow out? Arrows with
> barbed heads, especially, would hurt like unto a mother if they
> were ripped out instead of carefully removed after combat was
> over. It's a pretty cool mental image for a close combat archer,
> too - sometimes he shoots an arrow, sometimes he rips an arrow
> out of an enemy's flesh to re-use it, but no matter what he
> does he's hurting his opponents.
>
> Modelling it, now there's the problem. Might not be worth it,
> when you get right down to it. I mean, I can think of two issues
> right off the top of my head.
>
> 1) How do you decide which arrows penetrated far enough to cause
> extra damage when they're removed? The hit points system doesn't
> really lend itself to determining that sort of detail about each
> wound.
>

Make the arrows do d4 of damage if barbed or 1 if normal when removed.

> 2) Won't every PC want to start ripping arrows out if you
> allow one character type to do it? Not necessarily all
> the time, because in most cases the PC's normal weapons
> or spells or whatever will be a better choice, but I
> don't think you can make much of a case for "Well, this
> specific class knows how to rip an arrow out of an opponent,
> but no one else can do it." It just doesn't make sense.
>

Make it a feat: throw in a combat modifyer for to hit and damage -2/-2
or something, and its done, maybe a craft skill check to find useful
arrows with a feat detection bonus there could even be a synergy skill
bonus with... what would be a good one?

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Jerry Chesko wrote:
>>Any ideas on if I can work this ability in somehow?
> Hmm, percentile on retrieval sounds good. Throw in an increased chance at
> missing (referencing above explanation) since the arrow will be at least a
> little out of alignment.

Craft(Fletching) so they can 'repair' whatever percentage they recover.
--
"... respect, all good works are not done by only good folk. For within these Trials, we
shall do what needs to be done."
--till next time, Jameson Stalanthas Yu -x- <<poetry.dolphins-cove.com>>

 

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Mere moments before death, alordofchaos@yahoo.com hastily scrawled:
>
>I'd go with some chance (either flat, or based on damage done) that the
>used arrow is usable, and give the archer a check to determine whether
>he needs to bother trying to pull out the arrow (so he doesn't waste
>time pulling out arrows that his experience tells him are dulled/broken)

I think I'd just give him a check (probably model it like an attack
against the arrow) to attempt to successfully pull out an arrow. Fail
and either you didn't get the arrow out, or what you got out was
useless. Abstraction and all that.

Let's say make a touch attack vs your opponent and add the arrow's
size modifier to the AC. I think Medium arrows appear to be about
Tiny sized, so +4 there. Maybe add an extra +4 or so to represent the
difficulty of pulling out a good arrow. Oh, and it's obviously going
to provoke an AoO. Quick, someone crunch the numbers and come up with
some maths!



Ed Chauvin IV

--
DISCLAIMER : WARNING: RULE # 196 is X-rated in that to calculate L,
use X = [(C2/10)^2], and RULE # 193 which is NOT meant to be read by
kids, since RULE # 187 EXPLAINS homosexuality mathematically, using
modifier G @ 11.

"I always feel left out when someone *else* gets killfiled."
--Terry Austin

 

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On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 20:07:34 -0700, Henry Chen <mr_o_chen@hotmail.com>
carved upon a tablet of ether:

> I'm working out a Prestige Class, mostly for campaign world flavor,
> that's essentially a close-combat archer. One thing that I'd like to
> work into the class, swiped from a comic book actually, is the ability
> to relaod using arrows stuck in other people. The PHB states that arrows
> that hit are considered destroyed, though, which is problematic.
>
> Any ideas on if I can work this ability in somehow? I was thinking of
> interpreting "destroyed" as a generalization, and giving the archer a
> percentage chance of pulling out an arrow intact, maybe a percentage
> that gets higher with the level.
>
> Would this ability break any kind of check and balance that I'm missing?

Only the free re-use of Masterwork and magical arrows. Otherwise it's
really just a special effect. I think you could rule that arrows are
recoverable, but lose any magical and MW bonuses due to being a bit
damaged, etc. without any real cost to game balance - by the time a
character can qualify for most prestige classes the cost of mundane
arrows is negligible and Ehlonna's Quivers are very affordable.


--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."

 

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So here's where I am now:

Combat Quiver (I need a better name): On a successful Spot check, the
archer can identify salvageable arrows within a 5' radius., DC of 18 (of
course if no one's been shot, this is moot). Synergy with Craft
(arrowmaking [fletching? fletchery?]).

If he finds any, it's like a normal grab attempt except the opponent
doesn't have to be pinned. AC matters (instead of making it a touch
attack) because it's going to be harder to extract an arrow out of a
breastplate than a silk shirt. A successful grab means he gets an arrow
with -1/-1 modifiers on attack and damage, and it deals 1 point of
damage to the opponent on exit. Due to warping and distress on the
arrow, any masterwork or magical enhancements disappear. So if he's got
a high enough BAB, he can use a full-round action to shoot the arrow
back into the opponent if he wants.

I liked a lot of the feedback, but this seems to take advantage of the
most existing rules mechanics. Does it seem to involved? This is mostly
for flavor, so it's not supposed to be a huge benefit - just something
action-y to do.

I do think, in the actual campaign setting though, there will be a
special wood that the class uses for tougher arrows that are easier to
pull out successfully.

 

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Seems to me that this is actually so weak that he wouldn't ever bother
doing it (except, maybe, after a fight he'll salvage some arrows).

Henry Chen wrote:
> So here's where I am now:
>
> Combat Quiver (I need a better name): On a successful Spot check, the
> archer can identify salvageable arrows within a 5' radius., DC of 18 (of
> course if no one's been shot, this is moot). Synergy with Craft
> (arrowmaking [fletching? fletchery?]).
>
> If he finds any, it's like a normal grab attempt except the opponent
> doesn't have to be pinned. AC matters (instead of making it a touch
> attack) because it's going to be harder to extract an arrow out of a
> breastplate than a silk shirt. A successful grab means he gets an arrow
> with -1/-1 modifiers on attack and damage, and it deals 1 point of
> damage to the opponent on exit. Due to warping and distress on the
> arrow, any masterwork or magical enhancements disappear. So if he's got
> a high enough BAB, he can use a full-round action to shoot the arrow
> back into the opponent if he wants.
>
> I liked a lot of the feedback, but this seems to take advantage of the
> most existing rules mechanics. Does it seem to involved? This is mostly
> for flavor, so it's not supposed to be a huge benefit - just something
> action-y to do.
>
> I do think, in the actual campaign setting though, there will be a
> special wood that the class uses for tougher arrows that are easier to
> pull out successfully.

 

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Henry Chen wrote:
> So here's where I am now:
>
> Combat Quiver (I need a better name):

/shines the Hong Signal on a conveniently passing cluster of clouds

-Will

 

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"~consul" <consul@INVALIDdolphins-cove.com> wrote in message
news:d9cp9u$qe4$1@gist.usc.edu...
> Jerry Chesko wrote:
>>>Any ideas on if I can work this ability in somehow?
>> Hmm, percentile on retrieval sounds good. Throw in an increased chance
>> at missing (referencing above explanation) since the arrow will be at
>> least a little out of alignment.
>
> Craft(Fletching) so they can 'repair' whatever percentage they recover.
> --
I figured that it would be more like: In the heat of battle, Northstar
realizes his quiver has run empty. He sees several of his arrows in a
fallen enemy nearby. A gnoll is rushing him. Does he have the time to get
to the corspe to pull an arrow loose before the gnoll bashes him over the
head with with it's warhammer?

Craft(Fletching) I would think would be more like after battle, since I
myself wouldn't be bothering to tinker with the arrow to get a shot off
before getting my skull stoved in.

 

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In article <1119785630.102918.42400@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
IHateLashknife@hotmail.com wrote:

> Seems to me that this is actually so weak that he wouldn't ever bother
> doing it (except, maybe, after a fight he'll salvage some arrows).
>

I was afraid of that. I've had munchkin-itis in the past, so maybe I
overcompensate sometimes. Is it that it's too hard to find the arrows,
too hard to get them out, or too useless once you get the arrow out?