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AMD or P4

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June 3, 2002 8:29:00 PM

I apparently need to upgrade my PIII 1ghz, CUSL2-C, 512 pc133 pc now after my disapointment with the results of upgrading to a Leadtek 4600 TI from a GF2 card. I have been seriously considering the AMD XP 2100 for the price but now after reading the high end gamer buying guide on sharkey extream I am wondering if I should go with thiersuggestion a P4 2.26 and an appropriate MB. Can I get some oppinions please on which one would be best and what kind of increase I should see going with one of these cpu's and which MB i should use with either processor as well as type and brand of ram as well as amount. I mostly play different flight sims like FS2002 and WWII online and want best FPS with everything on. Thanks for any help...Jeff

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June 3, 2002 8:42:37 PM

i don't think you need to upgrade mate, with a P3 1Ghz, 512Mb RAM, your performance will be suprisingly close to a AthlonXP 2100+ or Intel P4 2.x Ghz...

I really don't think it's the CPU at fault here. what is the problem in gaming? with a GF4 Ti 4600 you have the best graphics money can buy right now....upgrading the CPU won't improve frame rates that much, levels will load quicker however.

if you do upgrade then either processor that you suggested will be fine, I'd recommend PC 2700 DDR RAM with either AMD or Intel processors.

For AMD try these mobos: Asus A7V333, or Soltek 75-DRV5

for Intel, well try an Asus board.
June 3, 2002 8:49:24 PM

Well this is contradictory to what I have been told by people on other forums when I complained about my lackluster performance after I upgraded the vid card. Several people told me that I was severly cpu limited with the PIII and games that I play and that I should upgrade the cpu to see a significant increase in performance. I would be pissed if I spent more money on a cpu-mb-ram upgrade and didnt get a sufficient increase. What can I do now, if anything, to get the best performance?
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June 3, 2002 9:15:40 PM

Forgot to mention the problem with gamming. The problem is that I only gained 1 or 2 fps with the upgraded GF4 4600 over the GF2 card in FS2002. from 8 or 9 fps to 10-12. I thought I would at least get 10 more or so.
June 3, 2002 9:45:11 PM

an Intel P3 1GHz doesn't come close to even AMD 1800+. Logically why would AMD come up with a processor that's supposed to go up against P4 if it's performance is almost near that of a P3? Plus DDR RAM is so much better than standard PC-133 SDRAM. Tell me if I'm wrong mate.
June 3, 2002 9:49:37 PM

you do have a bottleneck coz you have a CPU that's years old and a videocard that is one of the latest today. I suggest if you don't have a lot to spend, don't want to overclock, just want to play PC games faster and better go with AMD from 1800+ cpu and up, 512MB DDR RAM. If you have extra cash since ur upgrading motherboards to be it for AMD or Intel cpu get an ATA100 7200 RPM HDD to even things out.
June 3, 2002 9:55:26 PM

Currently, if you're overclocking then go with a P4. If not, go with AMD. Simple as that :smile:

<font color=blue>Hi mom!</font color=blue>
June 3, 2002 9:56:59 PM

I already have an IBM 75gxp 7200rpm 30gig hd. it works pretty well. What do you think of the comparison of the XP2100 and the P4 2.26? Online there is about a $70 difference between the two cpu's. How much of a performance increase should i expect?
June 3, 2002 9:58:16 PM

I would like to OC. what about MB's?
June 3, 2002 9:58:51 PM

I'm just giving the guy somewhere "specific" to start...I also can't believe that P3 has a performance that is almost at par with the AXP. :^]
June 3, 2002 10:07:18 PM

I know you came here to get quick answers but if you really wanna get the best system for what you have and for your purposes try reading the articles about MB and AMD/INTEL CPU comparisons here at THG. I built my first PC getting all the info here at THG and their articles really help...You learn a lot as you go too...
June 3, 2002 10:13:49 PM

Thank you for your input. I have read all the articles here as well as other sites. Unfortunatly on several occasions the hardware that was recomended here has not been favorably recieved by people posting in these and other forums. That is why I wanted some opinion from you individuals that are living with the upgrades everyday and are not subject to the restraints of paying advertisers.

I have found it extreamly usefull and educating to read these forums and get my questions answered by people like you. Thanks again for your help and keep the info comming. I still don't think I have the answers to my questions but we are on the way. Thanks...jeff
June 3, 2002 10:22:52 PM

even just skimming and glancing about on reviews and articles anywhere, for me P4 has the edge at the moment. AMD is still stuck at 2100+ but Tbred is coming out so you might wanna wait just a bit. I just like AMD for the price so I can buy a few more stuff with the savings I get. You're prolly better off with P4 but forthe mobo I don't know which is the best.
June 3, 2002 10:22:58 PM

even just skimming and glancing about on reviews and articles anywhere, for me P4 has the edge at the moment. AMD is still stuck at 2100+ but Tbred is coming out so you might wanna wait just a bit. I just like AMD for the price so I can buy a few more stuff with the savings I get. You're prolly better off with P4 but for the mobo I don't know which is the best.
June 3, 2002 11:05:20 PM

Quote:
<i>jwhee06151 says:</i>
I would like to OC. what about MB's?


Abit TH7II-RAID and some Samsung PC800-40 or PC1066.

Quote:
<i>hartski says:</i>
I'm just giving the guy somewhere "specific" to start...


I know, that's just my canned response for these threads :tongue:

<font color=blue>Hi mom!</font color=blue>
June 4, 2002 2:33:08 AM

yes the P3 1Ghz isn't as fast as a AthlonXP 2100+ BUT BUT BUT, for gaming you really won't notice a huge difference.....when i upgraded a PII 400Mhz 128Mb SDRAM to a AthlonXP 1900+ with 768Mb DDR RAM, i didn't notice much of a frame rate difference, the reason....they both were running off a Geforce2 Ultra.

for gaming the GPU is SO much more important...
June 4, 2002 2:59:02 AM

Try to play Jedi Knight II with that card or the P2 system, first with a Voodoo 3 then with a GF4, then switch to the XP2100, stick with the Voodoo 3, then finally try it with a GF4. Big difference, big gameplay huh?

--
Meow
June 4, 2002 3:11:45 AM

i don't really understand you :)  but i concede that JKII needs a fast CPU....

:) 
a b à CPUs
June 4, 2002 4:05:38 AM

I'd like to recommend you look at the Asus P4T533-C, some PC1066, and a P4 1.8A overclocked to at least 2.4GHz/"533".

What's the frequency, Kenneth?
June 4, 2002 4:09:41 AM

Or a 2200+ tbred on a kt333 mobo in about a week.

:wink: The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark :wink:
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June 4, 2002 5:45:49 AM

No need to live with VIA when both Asus and MSI have 745 chipset boards available.

What's the frequency, Kenneth?
June 4, 2002 6:05:52 AM

;-) I dont have 7 year old isa crap that dosent work with via, I have never had any via issues, dont feel the need to avoid them.


But as I have always said, I respect your bitter hatred for via and acknowledge your motivations for said hatred.

However, people with modern hardware dont need to avoid via, vias newer chipsets are stable performers and I have no qualms reccomending them to everyone.

:wink: The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark :wink:
June 4, 2002 6:10:22 AM

I remember reading that flight sims require a LOT of computing power from the CPU due to the complex calculation involved in the physics models ( can't provide any links, sorry... )

It make sense to say that the CPU is the limiting factor here. You might consider buying a CPU with more "brainpower" to compute the complex maths involved in the aerodynamic flight models.

I recommend that you wait a few weeks before buying a CPU, the new AMD Thoroughbred is due to be launched anytime soon ( most of us here are impatient to see what it can do ), even if you decide to go Intel, wait, Intel WILL react to AMD's Tbred, you should be able to get a great deal on CPUs from both companies in the next few weeks...

A new CPU will most likely involve getting faster memory and a more recent motherboard.

I hope you'll have as much fun building that dream machine as you'll have playing with it =)

Fok Speling Misstake
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June 4, 2002 6:31:24 AM

You should be wondering how much better the rest of our hardware would perform if it wasn't designed to work around VIA's bugs. And there are still new cards that are not recommended for VIA chipsets, a guy just a few weeks ago was told by the manufacturer of his new TV card that problems he had were caused by his chipset.

What's the frequency, Kenneth?
June 4, 2002 6:46:58 AM

I do hope you have evidence to substanciate that claim(the lowered specs due to via hardware).


Of course the fact via chipsets generally are the fastest would have nothing to say to that claim, would it?

:wink: The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark :wink:
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June 4, 2002 6:59:26 AM

Look back about a year and a half when drivers suddenly became stable for VIA shitsets and performance using those drivers suddenly dropped. Up to that point, many cards would go into a data loop when PCI latency was higher than the card's response time. How do you fix that? Slow down the cards response time. Up until recently VIA shitsets have been among the slowest in the world for anything Intel, the P4X333 being the first to actually offer decent performance for Intel CPU's. The AMD 761 was fast, then the KT266 was faster, but the 735 was faster still, leading VIA to extort companies into not using it...hmm. I didn't vote for Bush or Clinton either, the honest guys all got pushed out during primaries.

What's the frequency, Kenneth?
June 4, 2002 7:02:13 AM

Quote:
KT266 was faster, but the 735 was faster still, leading VIA to extort companies into not using it...


The 735 is not faster than the 266a, not by like 10% iirc.(maybe closer to 5%).

I dont remember this sudden stability/=slowness point, and I highly doubt you do as well seeing as you swore off via long ago.

:wink: The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark :wink:
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June 4, 2002 7:27:06 AM

No, they only extorted companies to buy time for them to release the 266A, while the 266 was their latest product.

What's the frequency, Kenneth?
June 4, 2002 2:06:04 PM

I appreciate the comments and I see that there is some passionate opinions on at the very least chipsets. From some of the posts in other forums that I have seem people are saying that the new AMD wont be any faster for while, just cooler. What does everyone think about this? Is the P4 2.26 faster than the XP 2100? What about future P4 cpu's being compatable with a current "new" P4 board like the Abit BD7II?
June 4, 2002 2:33:53 PM

Quote:
I appreciate the comments and I see that there is some passionate opinions on at the very least chipsets. From some of the posts in other forums that I have seem people are saying that the new AMD wont be any faster for while, just cooler. What does everyone think about this? Is the P4 2.26 faster than the XP 2100? What about future P4 cpu's being compatable with a current "new" P4 board like the Abit BD7II?


The p4 would edge out the 2100+ on rdram.


The tbreds are not faster clock per clock, but they will be able to clock considerably higher, that is the whole point of the tbred shrink.

:wink: The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark :wink:
June 4, 2002 2:38:11 PM

I am also reading that rdram is on the way out. DDR is the future. Is P4 performance not as good with DDR as with rdram?
June 4, 2002 2:40:22 PM

You should have gotten the GeForce4 ti 4200 w/64MB since it runs neck and neck with anything out there. And that is without OCing.
June 4, 2002 2:46:24 PM

Well from everything I read I decided to go with the best out there. The only problem is that the performance increase was very disapointing for $350.00. Now I am faced with spending more to hopefully realize the increase I am looking for but do not want to spend $600.oo on a processor.
June 4, 2002 2:52:10 PM

I personally think ddr has more room to grow than rdram based on rdrams high clockspeed and high heat issues, but for the p4, now, rdram is the better buy easily.

The p4 was not designed for ddr, and the p4 is not as latency sensitive as the athlon(latency is the place ddr excells greatly at), so ddr usually winds up lowering the p4's performance considerably.


Amd_man will fight tooth and nail against that, but as it stands now I am right.(sure with magical 400mhz ddr you can beat rdram, but pshaw)

:wink: The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark :wink:
June 4, 2002 3:37:08 PM

Hey jwhee06151! Wait a moment!

No, no technocal information or something really cool. Just to avoid the terror of a wrong investment.

If I understand right, one of your main questions is: is the CPU limiting FPS? Well, let's just check it!

You can make some test to guess it. Anyone feel free to add more.

a) Test your computer with overclock and underclock of your graphic card, combining GPU and memory clock, for example:

- 10% up GPU, 0% memory
- 10% up memory, 0% GPU
- 10% up GPU and memory
- the same but going down

Ok. Now, there are any significant differences? Are FPS affected? If the answer is no (as I suppose it will be and as for comments here), your GF4 is getting bored all the time.

Now, let's check the CPU. Because Intel locked it's processors, you will have to increase FSB. If you can, fix the AGP/PCI bus to it's standards, so there is no effect. Then it will only show the improvement in CPU AND memory.

Again increase the FSB slowly, let's say 5% an then 10% if you can. Test it in both cases and see what happens. If you experience an equal % increased in FPS, the bottleneck it's absolutely your CPU and/or memory. If it's only half % there is something else.

Another consideration: have you tweak your BIOS? Maybe you can gain FPS enabling fast writes and other tweaks. Check around the net, there are usefull guides about this topic.

Finally: maybe if overclock you CPU (probably your bottleneck), you tweak your BIOS, look for other improvements (windows tweaks, RAM management, etc.), your system it won't be so bad ;-) And can wait a little more for Tbred, or meanwhile play at higher FPS. Oh yes, and be more sure that the problem is your CPU.

Hope that I help.

DIY: read, buy, test, learn, reward yourself!
June 4, 2002 3:44:08 PM

Quote:

Amd_man will fight tooth and nail against that, but as it stands now I am right.(sure with magical 400mhz ddr you can beat rdram, but pshaw)

Once I get my P4 1.6A to 2.4GHz with 450MHz Samsung DDR RAM, you'll be changing your opinion. :tongue:

I'll get myself better cooling if necessary.

:wink: <b><i>"A penny saved is a penny earned!"</i></b> :wink:
June 4, 2002 3:45:50 PM

Quote:
Once I get my P4 1.6A to 2.4GHz with 450MHz Samsung DDR RAM, you'll be changing your opinion.


That will be the day, 450mhz ddr, at what cl3 slow?

:wink: The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark :wink:
June 4, 2002 4:15:33 PM

Quote:
<i>jwhee06151 says:</i>
I am also reading that rdram is on the way out. DDR is the future. Is P4 performance not as good with DDR as with rdram?


In order of appearance, false, maybe and true.

Quote:
<i>AMD_Man says:</i>
Once I get my P4 1.6A to 2.4GHz with 450MHz Samsung DDR RAM, you'll be changing your opinion.


Good luck :smile:

<font color=blue>Hi mom!</font color=blue>
June 4, 2002 4:18:32 PM

Quote:


That will be the day, 450mhz ddr, at what cl3 slow?

Nope, at either semi-aggressive or maximum settings. I've seen it done many times on AsusBoards and a couple of times on SharkeyExtreme and HardForums. It's been done, and I believe I can do it too. It might take a bit of tinkering but I have a whole summer.

:wink: <b><i>"A penny saved is a penny earned!"</i></b> :wink:
June 4, 2002 6:55:34 PM

What does the 1.6A denote? hat is your oppinion on my original post?
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June 4, 2002 7:57:21 PM

The P4 2.26 should be slightly faster than the XP2100+ in apps. The latest boards should be relavent to the latest P4s for at least another years

What's the frequency, Kenneth?
June 5, 2002 1:29:37 AM

Will the DDR ram like the upcomming P4's better?
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June 5, 2002 3:45:19 AM

No, the only way to make DDR perform at it's best with a P4 is to make a board/chipset with DUAL CHANNEL DDR. Such boards will not be available until at least August.

What's the frequency, Kenneth?
June 5, 2002 2:01:35 PM

Then would using DDR now in antisipation that the new boards will make better use of it be a better move than buying Sdram and having it become obsolete in a short time?
June 5, 2002 6:08:45 PM

Don't buy SDRAM for a new system, period. Buying DDR in anticipation of a dual-DDR system isn't a bad idea. You're taking a risk in that it may disappear and you never get dual-DDR (who knows?), and you'll also be sort of committing yourself to buying two motherboards for one system. But the performance difference between RDRAM and DDR isn't bigger than the risk you're taking, if that makes sense.

<font color=blue>Hi mom!</font color=blue>
June 5, 2002 6:44:15 PM

So if it were you, what ram and how much of it would you pair up with a P4 2.26?
June 5, 2002 7:14:21 PM

If going with DDR, I'd go for two 256MB sticks of Samsung PC2700. If RDRAM, go with Samsung again.

<font color=blue>Hi mom!</font color=blue>
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June 5, 2002 7:14:25 PM

With any new system, normal SDRAM is a bad idea. DDR works best for AMD's, and RDRAM works best for P4's. You could assemble a P4 system with DDR in hopes that a dual-channel DDR board will be available in the near future, as for me, I prefer to resell my old boards with their processors when I upgrade.

What's the frequency, Kenneth?
June 5, 2002 7:55:16 PM

Actually I meant RDRAM as I was reading some of the other posts that RDRAM is dead. So is it or will RDRAM be around for a while and should it be used with a P4?
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June 5, 2002 8:34:04 PM

RDRAM will remain relavent as long as the i850 is king, which means, at least until Dual Channel DDR boards become available AND work right. If you're the kind of user who would just as soon sell your motherboard with the memory if you upgrade your board, it's your best solution. If I upgraded to a dual channel DDR board from an RDRAM board, it would be easy for me simply to throw the old stuff in another system and resell the system.

What's the frequency, Kenneth?
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