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Magic vs. technology (was: Musings on Alignment)

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Anonymous
June 29, 2005 4:53:52 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Bruce Grubb <bgrubb@zianet.com> wrote:
>
> But the problem is you are dumping magic in this world which throws the
> *effective* Technology level off. GURPS uses TLx+y to show this.
> Technomancer (called Merlin in Infinate Worlds) is at TL7+1 or higher than
> our own TL7 but that is due to magic. The average D&D world seems to range
> from TL2+2 (Age of Sail, 1450+) to TL 3+2 (Industrial Revolution, 1730+)
> which throws any assumption on the 'historic' Middle Ages out the window.

.... and now the branched thread. (And yes, I know I changed the subject
line on my previous message.)

We could posit the existence of magic and try to determine what effect
that would have on the situation. It may be that between magic and the
gods taking a direct hand medicine could be considered roughly
equivalent to our own in terms of effectiveness.

Me, I suspect not. Where you've got some making things better, those
who want to make things worse have comparable tools. RAW, magic is too
expensive to be used for 'mundane' purposes. Yes, /remove disease/
could cure someone with the Black Plague, but once it started to spread
you'd only be able to save certain individuals. This could of course
'affect history' -- save the important people who bend the path of
history, and things will be different than if they'd died. Probably.
I'm not going into that right now.

However, you'd still be greatly limited as to what exactly you could do.
You couldn't save *everyone*. You might be able to identify when and
where it'll start, quarantine that city, and prevent it from spreading
and wiping out the continent. Or not -- it could be magically hidden or
surpressed until it was too late to contain, or a number of areas of
contagion started to make it too difficult to stop. This'd have to be
organized, of course, which means the possibility of finding out and
stopping *that* from happening exists.

Basically, while magic allows for great results in some cases, they're
still less than you'd see in modern times, in the *common* case. Yes,
you might be able to use /remove disease/ to cure AIDS, but there'll
still be a lot of people dying of pneumonia or dysentery... especially
if they still have the open sewers in the streets.


Overall I treat magic as making things a little better on average than
it was; much of the 'counter' to the benefits of magic require active
application (i.e. evil), which reduces the likelihood. It makes things
a little smoother if I assume magic makes life a little better overall,
without greatly influencing most of the rest of society. It's a source
of power, but very tightly focused.

Make it cheap and fairly common, *then* you've got something that'll
change the society. That a few people gain benefits from it will make
*some* difference, but not nearly as much as many people think.


Keith
--
Keith Davies "Trying to sway him from his current kook-
keith.davies@kjdavies.org rant with facts is like trying to create
keith.davies@gmail.com a vacuum in a room by pushing the air
http://www.kjdavies.org/ out with your hands." -- Matt Frisch
Anonymous
June 29, 2005 7:38:27 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Repent Keith Davies!" said the Ticktockman. "Get Stuffed!" Keith Davies
replied. Then he added:

> Make it cheap and fairly common, *then* you've got something that'll
> change the society. That a few people gain benefits from it will make
> *some* difference, but not nearly as much as many people think.
>

One thing I've always imagined about a D&D world is that sanitation would
probably be better. For example, if out break of Cholera swept through the
city, some of the preists would be running around curing, but someone's got
to be back in the temple casting some high-level divination.

"Oh, Lord of Healing, what can we do to stop this plague?"

"You must stop the people from using the open pit latrine behind the Market
Square. Then My most powerful priests must go to that latrine and all cast
Cure Disease at the same time. They must then move to the well in the
square and all cast Purify Food & Drink at the same time. Then you must
erect a bronze statue of Me in the square, it must be at least 20 feet
tall. Remember well this dictum: Never dig a latrine within a quarter-mile
of a source of drinking water."

"Yes, Lord, it will be as you say."


After a couple hundred years of this, religious taboos would probably cover
most of what we now practice as sanitary living.

--
Billy Yank

Quinn: "I'm saying it's us, or them."
Murphy: "Well I choose them."
Q: "That's NOT an option!"
M: "Then you shouldn't have framed it as one."
-Sealab 2021

Billy Yank's Baldur's Gate Photo Portraits
http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze2xvw6/
Anonymous
June 29, 2005 12:59:34 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Billy Yank" <billyUSCOREyank@verizonDOT.net> wrote in message
news:Xns9683F20778E62billyyanknetzeronet@199.45.49.11...

> One thing I've always imagined about a D&D world is that sanitation would
> probably be better. For example, if out break of Cholera swept through
> the
> city, some of the preists would be running around curing, but someone's
> got
> to be back in the temple casting some high-level divination.
>
> "Oh, Lord of Healing, what can we do to stop this plague?"
>
> "You must stop the people from using the open pit latrine behind the
> Market
> Square. Then My most powerful priests must go to that latrine and all
> cast
> Cure Disease at the same time. They must then move to the well in the
> square and all cast Purify Food & Drink at the same time. Then you must
> erect a bronze statue of Me in the square, it must be at least 20 feet
> tall. Remember well this dictum: Never dig a latrine within a
> quarter-mile
> of a source of drinking water."
>
> "Yes, Lord, it will be as you say."
>
>
> After a couple hundred years of this, religious taboos would probably
> cover
> most of what we now practice as sanitary living.

....and there'd be a small shortage of bronze thanks to the countless statues
of healing deities that had been required. :) 
Related resources
Anonymous
June 29, 2005 2:24:01 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

In article <Xns9683F20778E62billyyanknetzeronet@199.45.49.11>,
Billy Yank <billyUSCOREyank@verizonDOT.net> wrote:
>"Repent Keith Davies!" said the Ticktockman. "Get Stuffed!" Keith Davies
>replied. Then he added:
>
>> Make it cheap and fairly common, *then* you've got something that'll
>> change the society. That a few people gain benefits from it will make
>> *some* difference, but not nearly as much as many people think.
>>
>
>One thing I've always imagined about a D&D world is that sanitation would
>probably be better. For example, if out break of Cholera swept through the
>city, some of the preists would be running around curing, but someone's got
>to be back in the temple casting some high-level divination.
>
>"Oh, Lord of Healing, what can we do to stop this plague?"
>
>"You must stop the people from using the open pit latrine behind the Market
>Square.
<snip divine writ>
>"Yes, Lord, it will be as you say."
>
>After a couple hundred years of this, religious taboos would probably cover
>most of what we now practice as sanitary living.

Divination backed Surveillance could keep plague at bay.

"Oh Lord of Healing is there anyone in need of your Holy Touch?"

"Go unto 259 The Twidlings and cast Cure Jack Fedmore and his family.
Then Burn the bolts of damp cloth they have just received from
Landstrom as a offering to me."

If you can identify and zap patent zero you could stop a plague with
5-6 Cure Diseases. Natural plague could be a thing of the past...
Unless all the healers are called away to war, or the plague is
_unnatural_...

I think there is a campaign in this... all the characters are affiliated
with the healing god (who needs fighters, rogues, mages etc to battle the
forces of disease and Jack Fedmore (who does not want to be cured and have
his cloth burned)).

Disease Divination could lead to all sort of interesting situations and
normally the Oracle is not quite so specific its pronouncements.
--
Michael
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
NPC rights activist | Nameless Abominations are people too.
Anonymous
June 29, 2005 7:53:32 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Billy Yank" <billyUSCOREyank@verizonDOT.net> wrote in message
news:Xns9683F20778E62billyyanknetzeronet@199.45.49.11...
> "Repent Keith Davies!" said the Ticktockman. "Get Stuffed!" Keith
Davies
> replied. Then he added:
>
> > Make it cheap and fairly common, *then* you've got something that'll
> > change the society. That a few people gain benefits from it will make
> > *some* difference, but not nearly as much as many people think.
> >
>
> One thing I've always imagined about a D&D world is that sanitation
would
> probably be better. For example, if out break of Cholera swept through
the
> city, some of the preists would be running around curing, but someone's
got
> to be back in the temple casting some high-level divination.
>
> "Oh, Lord of Healing, what can we do to stop this plague?"
>
> "You must stop the people from using the open pit latrine behind the
Market
> Square. Then My most powerful priests must go to that latrine and all
cast
> Cure Disease at the same time. They must then move to the well in the
> square and all cast Purify Food & Drink at the same time. Then you must
> erect a bronze statue of Me in the square, it must be at least 20 feet
> tall. Remember well this dictum: Never dig a latrine within a
quarter-mile
> of a source of drinking water."
>
> "Yes, Lord, it will be as you say."

Maybe that's why the best "communicate with deity" spell doesn't work that
way.
Anonymous
June 29, 2005 7:54:38 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Mr. M.J. Lush" <mlush@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:D 9tss1$5sg$1@helium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk...

Using actual D&D magic....

> Divination backed Surveillance could keep plague at bay.
>
> "Oh Lord of Healing is there anyone in need of your Holy Touch?"

Yes.

Not...

> "Go unto 259 The Twidlings and cast Cure Jack Fedmore and his family.
> Then Burn the bolts of damp cloth they have just received from
> Landstrom as a offering to me."
Anonymous
June 29, 2005 7:54:38 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Mr. M.J. Lush wrote:

> ... if your running a vanilla setting in which case a dayly divination
> "do I need to cast commune?" followed by a binary search commune
> when needed, will go a long way. Coupled with a large chunk of good sense
> in the holy book.

Gate or planeshift to your god's home plane and simply ASK rather
than casting a spell to communicate accross dimensions is also
possible.

Note that repeated divinations work for most binary search trees
within noticably less than the one week they give warning for.
(i.e. you know by the time you need to without paying any EP.)

If the gods can't communicate with their church given high level
magic on the church's side then the gods are worse at communicating
than the average illiterate deaf mute even after the deaf mute has
been dead for a week....

Claims that the gods can't pass on information just don't work in
D&D land.

But what makes you think that sickness in D&D land is caused by
anything related to poor sanitation, I don't recall seeing Typhus
or Black Death in the DMG, I do recall D&D having things like
Mummy Rot and infectious Lycanthropy, assuming that other deseases
act like those in our world even though none of them are deseases
from our world seems over optimistic too me.

DougL
Anonymous
June 29, 2005 8:55:55 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

In article <ZfqdnYf53YuoK1_fRVnytg@pipex.net>, Symbol <jb70@talk21.com> wrote:
>
>"Billy Yank" <billyUSCOREyank@verizonDOT.net> wrote in message
>news:Xns9683F20778E62billyyanknetzeronet@199.45.49.11...
>> "Repent Keith Davies!" said the Ticktockman. "Get Stuffed!" Keith
>Davies
>> replied. Then he added:
>>
>> > Make it cheap and fairly common, *then* you've got something that'll
>> > change the society. That a few people gain benefits from it will make
>> > *some* difference, but not nearly as much as many people think.
>> >
>>
>> One thing I've always imagined about a D&D world is that sanitation
>would
>> probably be better. For example, if out break of Cholera swept through
>the
>> city, some of the preists would be running around curing, but someone's
>got
>> to be back in the temple casting some high-level divination.
>>
>> "Oh, Lord of Healing, what can we do to stop this plague?"
>>
>> "You must stop the people from using the open pit latrine behind the
>Market
>> Square. Then My most powerful priests must go to that latrine and all
>cast
>> Cure Disease at the same time. They must then move to the well in the
>> square and all cast Purify Food & Drink at the same time. Then you must
>> erect a bronze statue of Me in the square, it must be at least 20 feet
>> tall. Remember well this dictum: Never dig a latrine within a
>quarter-mile
>> of a source of drinking water."
>>
>> "Yes, Lord, it will be as you say."
>
>Maybe that's why the best "communicate with deity" spell doesn't work that
>way.
>

.... if your running a vanilla setting in which case a dayly divination
"do I need to cast commune?" followed by a binary search commune
when needed, will go a long way. Coupled with a large chunk of good sense
in the holy book.



--
Michael
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
NPC rights activist | Nameless Abominations are people too.
Anonymous
June 29, 2005 8:55:56 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Mr. M.J. Lush wrote:
> In article <ZfqdnYf53YuoK1_fRVnytg@pipex.net>, Symbol <jb70@talk21.com> wrote:
>
>>"Billy Yank" <billyUSCOREyank@verizonDOT.net> wrote in message
>>news:Xns9683F20778E62billyyanknetzeronet@199.45.49.11...
>>
>>>"Repent Keith Davies!" said the Ticktockman. "Get Stuffed!" Keith
>>
>>Davies
>>
>>>replied. Then he added:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Make it cheap and fairly common, *then* you've got something that'll
>>>>change the society. That a few people gain benefits from it will make
>>>>*some* difference, but not nearly as much as many people think.
>>>>
>>>
>>>One thing I've always imagined about a D&D world is that sanitation
>>
>>would
>>
>>>probably be better. For example, if out break of Cholera swept through
>>
>>the
>>
>>>city, some of the preists would be running around curing, but someone's
>>
>>got
>>
>>>to be back in the temple casting some high-level divination.
>>>
>>>"Oh, Lord of Healing, what can we do to stop this plague?"
>>>
>>>"You must stop the people from using the open pit latrine behind the
>>
>>Market
>>
>>>Square. Then My most powerful priests must go to that latrine and all
>>
>>cast
>>
>>>Cure Disease at the same time. They must then move to the well in the
>>>square and all cast Purify Food & Drink at the same time. Then you must
>>>erect a bronze statue of Me in the square, it must be at least 20 feet
>>>tall. Remember well this dictum: Never dig a latrine within a
>>
>>quarter-mile
>>
>>>of a source of drinking water."
>>>
>>>"Yes, Lord, it will be as you say."
>>
>>Maybe that's why the best "communicate with deity" spell doesn't work that
>>way.
>>
>
>
> ... if your running a vanilla setting in which case a dayly divination
> "do I need to cast commune?" followed by a binary search commune
> when needed, will go a long way. Coupled with a large chunk of good sense
> in the holy book.

Now there's some wishful thinking.

- Ron ^*^
Anonymous
June 30, 2005 2:57:12 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Repent Symbol!" said the Ticktockman. "Get Stuffed!" Symbol replied.
Then he added:

> Maybe that's why the best "communicate with deity" spell doesn't work
> that way.
>

Bummer. I never looked at clerical divination before. Is there anything
better than Commune in BoED?

--
Billy Yank

Quinn: "I'm saying it's us, or them."
Murphy: "Well I choose them."
Q: "That's NOT an option!"
M: "Then you shouldn't have framed it as one."
-Sealab 2021

Billy Yank's Baldur's Gate Photo Portraits
http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze2xvw6/
Anonymous
June 30, 2005 2:57:13 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Billy Yank wrote:

> "Repent Symbol!" said the Ticktockman. "Get Stuffed!" Symbol replied.
> Then he added:
>
>
>>Maybe that's why the best "communicate with deity" spell doesn't work
>>that way.
>>
>
>
> Bummer. I never looked at clerical divination before. Is there anything
> better than Commune in BoED?

Yeah -- Nymph's Kiss.

- Ron ^*^
Anonymous
July 2, 2005 1:12:00 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 00:53:52 GMT, Keith Davies
<keith.davies@kjdavies.org> wrote:

>Bruce Grubb <bgrubb@zianet.com> wrote:
>>
>> But the problem is you are dumping magic in this world which throws the
>> *effective* Technology level off. GURPS uses TLx+y to show this.
>> Technomancer (called Merlin in Infinate Worlds) is at TL7+1 or higher than
>> our own TL7 but that is due to magic. The average D&D world seems to range
>> from TL2+2 (Age of Sail, 1450+) to TL 3+2 (Industrial Revolution, 1730+)
>> which throws any assumption on the 'historic' Middle Ages out the window.
>
>... and now the branched thread. (And yes, I know I changed the subject
>line on my previous message.)
>
>We could posit the existence of magic and try to determine what effect
>that would have on the situation. It may be that between magic and the
>gods taking a direct hand medicine could be considered roughly
>equivalent to our own in terms of effectiveness.
>
>Me, I suspect not. Where you've got some making things better, those
>who want to make things worse have comparable tools. RAW, magic is too
>expensive to be used for 'mundane' purposes. Yes, /remove disease/
>could cure someone with the Black Plague, but once it started to spread
>you'd only be able to save certain individuals.

True. Spell casters are usually a minority, sometimes a really small
minority, and most of them shouldn't be higher than 3rd level. And
it's easy for someone who is primarily a GURPS player to forget how
constrained D&D magic users are. Basicly for lower class types you
aren't going to get access to much more than 0 level spells.


So what impact would the 0-level spells have on people's lives?

Create Water: Can help tide the village over when the water source
has been contaminated until a high level cleric can come and deal with
the problem or when there's just plain a water shortage. A 3rd level
cleric (who I'll take as "typical") can produce something like 36
gallons a day.

Cure Minor Wounds: Cure spells seem to prevent or at least discourage
infection apart from the actual damage they restore, at least as much
as modern first aid disinfection. _Big_ difference. And you aren't
going to see so many villagers hurting themselves per day that you
can't keep ahead of it. And a Cure Minor really speeds up a 1st level
character's recuperation from injury.

Detect Poison: Is going to help track down the sources of water and
food chemical contamination related illnesses fairly easily. Much
more easily in fact than modern medical investigators could do it.

Guidance: Effectively means that all the farmers have a +1 for their
professional skill check for the year because it lasts "until
discharged".

Ray of Frost: OK, not much practical use. But it does mean that ice
will be for sale in the cities.

Resistance: Duration limit makes it of no significant use.

Now, note that there is no "Detect Disease" spell in the book
officially, but it makes sense that it could be detected at the same
level as Poison or maybe one higher. That would help a lot with
quarantining contagion.
Anonymous
July 2, 2005 1:50:18 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

In article <RHGwe.141910$sy6.2638@lakeread04>, ranpoirier@cox.net
says...

> >>Maybe that's why the best "communicate with deity" spell doesn't work
> >>that way.
> >
> > Bummer. I never looked at clerical divination before. Is there anything
> > better than Commune in BoED?
>
> Yeah -- Nymph's Kiss.

:D 


--
Jasin Zujovic
jzujovic@inet.hr
Anonymous
July 2, 2005 1:31:12 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

In article <1120085678.836040.306570@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
DougL <doug.lampert@tdytsi.com> wrote:
>Mr. M.J. Lush wrote:
>
>> ... if your running a vanilla setting in which case a dayly divination
>> "do I need to cast commune?" followed by a binary search commune
>> when needed, will go a long way. Coupled with a large chunk of good sense
>> in the holy book.
<snip>
>Claims that the gods can't pass on information just don't work in
>D&D land.
>
>But what makes you think that sickness in D&D land is caused by
>anything related to poor sanitation, I don't recall seeing Typhus
>or Black Death in the DMG, I do recall D&D having things like
>Mummy Rot and infectious Lycanthropy, assuming that other deseases
>act like those in our world even though none of them are deseases
>from our world seems over optimistic too me.

In another post in this thread I suggest just that

"If you can identify and zap patent zero you could stop a plague with
5-6 Cure Diseases. Natural plague could be a thing of the past...
Unless all the healers are called away to war, or the plague is
_unnatural_..."

I think a "Sanitation Police" could make a useful structure for a
long running city campaign

* Its easy to start an adventure... The Oracle speaks and off they go
* There is a natural scaling of Challenge vs Character Level, for the
most part the squad would be assigned to tasks they could handle,
say, they start out tackling 'natural disease' (not easy the carriers
may not want to be found or are powerful and embarrassed (you try telling
the High Poobar of the Templers a highly infectious Social Disease and
finding out who/what he got it from)). as they get stronger they could move
on to tackling a village with a nasty outbreak of Lycanthropy or finding out
where those cases of Mummy Rot are coming from etc.
* The characters have a useful status within the city that allows the whole party
to move 'freely' in all levels of society. Putting them in a excellent position
to get caught up in all sorts of politics and conspiracy.
* Most classes could it into the Church organisation they need fighters, rogues,
mages as well as clerics

--
Michael
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
NPC rights activist | Nameless Abominations are people too.
Anonymous
July 4, 2005 9:10:45 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

In article <slrndc3s90.pt5.keith.davies@kjdavies.org>,
Keith Davies <keith.davies@kjdavies.org> wrote:

> Bruce Grubb <bgrubb@zianet.com> wrote:
> >
> > But the problem is you are dumping magic in this world which throws the
> > *effective* Technology level off. GURPS uses TLx+y to show this.
> > Technomancer (called Merlin in Infinate Worlds) is at TL7+1 or higher than
> > our own TL7 but that is due to magic. The average D&D world seems to range
> > from TL2+2 (Age of Sail, 1450+) to TL 3+2 (Industrial Revolution, 1730+)
> > which throws any assumption on the 'historic' Middle Ages out the window.
>
> ... and now the branched thread. (And yes, I know I changed the subject
> line on my previous message.)
>
> We could posit the existence of magic and try to determine what effect
> that would have on the situation. It may be that between magic and the
> gods taking a direct hand medicine could be considered roughly
> equivalent to our own in terms of effectiveness.
>
> Me, I suspect not. Where you've got some making things better, those
> who want to make things worse have comparable tools. RAW, magic is too
> expensive to be used for 'mundane' purposes.

This depends wildly on the the magic system. GURPS Magic and Fantasy give a
huge range of magic system that work WAY differently than D&D magic does.

> Yes, /remove disease/
> could cure someone with the Black Plague, but once it started to spread
> you'd only be able to save certain individuals. This could of course
> 'affect history' -- save the important people who bend the path of
> history, and things will be different than if they'd died. Probably.
> I'm not going into that right now.
>
> However, you'd still be greatly limited as to what exactly you could do.
> You couldn't save *everyone*. You might be able to identify when and
> where it'll start, quarantine that city, and prevent it from spreading
> and wiping out the continent. Or not -- it could be magically hidden or
> surpressed until it was too late to contain, or a number of areas of
> contagion started to make it too difficult to stop. This'd have to be
> organized, of course, which means the possibility of finding out and
> stopping *that* from happening exists.
>
> Basically, while magic allows for great results in some cases, they're
> still less than you'd see in modern times, in the *common* case. Yes,
> you might be able to use /remove disease/ to cure AIDS, but there'll
> still be a lot of people dying of pneumonia or dysentery... especially
> if they still have the open sewers in the streets.

Here is where the difference in the magic systems comes into play. Remove
Contagion in GUPRS is an area spell and with enough Powerstones or a good
powersource for Draw Power to work on you can take out about every disease
that is spread through contaminated air, food, or water. Of course this
still leaves carrier diseases like the Plague, AIDS, and Ebola to deal
with.

Also Magic can help in indirect ways. Take the lowly Copy spell - five
seconds and a base 2+1/copy energy points (average person has 10) to copy a
page of material. Each doubling of the base multiplies the source by 10. So
4 gets you one copy of a 10 page document, 8 gets you one 100 page book (or
ten 10 page documents).

Also if Share Energy is available you can keep doubling. ie 16 will get you
one copy of a 1000 page book (two castings will get you the Bible which is
actually a library of books) and 32 pumps out 10000 pages worth of
material. If the caster is in a Very High mana/sancuary then his energy is
renewed the next second.

Even in a 50 person monastery you could have one scribe with the help of
his fellows (assuming that such locations are High sancuary) capable of
pumping out 10000 pages worth of material every six seconds! You have a
human printing press able to put out at a level unheard of until the Steam
age. The effects of this alone would be enormous.
Anonymous
July 5, 2005 3:21:19 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Mon, 04 Jul 2005 17:10:45 -0600, Bruce Grubb <bgrubb@zianet.com>
wrote:

>> Me, I suspect not. Where you've got some making things better, those
>> who want to make things worse have comparable tools. RAW, magic is too
>> expensive to be used for 'mundane' purposes.
>
>This depends wildly on the the magic system. GURPS Magic and Fantasy give a
>huge range of magic system that work WAY differently than D&D magic does.

Yes, but that's hardly relevant here. I'd eagerly participate in a
new Magic vs Technology thread in the GURPS newsgroup, though.
Anonymous
July 5, 2005 4:23:07 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Bruce Grubb <bgrubb@zianet.com> wrote:
> In article <slrndc3s90.pt5.keith.davies@kjdavies.org>,
> Keith Davies <keith.davies@kjdavies.org> wrote:
>
>> Bruce Grubb <bgrubb@zianet.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > But the problem is you are dumping magic in this world which throws the
>> > *effective* Technology level off. GURPS uses TLx+y to show this.
>> > Technomancer (called Merlin in Infinate Worlds) is at TL7+1 or higher than
>> > our own TL7 but that is due to magic. The average D&D world seems to range
>> > from TL2+2 (Age of Sail, 1450+) to TL 3+2 (Industrial Revolution, 1730+)
>> > which throws any assumption on the 'historic' Middle Ages out the window.
>>
>> ... and now the branched thread. (And yes, I know I changed the subject
>> line on my previous message.)
>>
>> We could posit the existence of magic and try to determine what effect
>> that would have on the situation. It may be that between magic and the
>> gods taking a direct hand medicine could be considered roughly
>> equivalent to our own in terms of effectiveness.
>>
>> Me, I suspect not. Where you've got some making things better, those
>> who want to make things worse have comparable tools. RAW, magic is too
>> expensive to be used for 'mundane' purposes.
>
> This depends wildly on the the magic system. GURPS Magic and Fantasy
> give a huge range of magic system that work WAY differently than D&D
> magic does.

Sure. But, given that this is a D&D group, I took your earlier comment
to be an attempt to use GURPS to illustrate a difference between the
levels of technology. That is, we (or at least *I*) was still
discussing how D&D magic would apply.

In short, not much.

If you start discussing other systems, with different rules, that's an
entirely different matter. You should indicate that that is your intent
so you can be followed.

>> Basically, while magic allows for great results in some cases, they're
>> still less than you'd see in modern times, in the *common* case. Yes,
>> you might be able to use /remove disease/ to cure AIDS, but there'll
>> still be a lot of people dying of pneumonia or dysentery... especially
>> if they still have the open sewers in the streets.

[snipped GURPS stuff]

> Even in a 50 person monastery you could have one scribe with the help
> of his fellows (assuming that such locations are High sancuary)
> capable of pumping out 10000 pages worth of material every six
> seconds! You have a human printing press able to put out at a level
> unheard of until the Steam age. The effects of this alone would be
> enormous.

I will stipulate that magic as ruled *in another game* could in fact
have far-reaching effect. However, 'rec.games.frp.dnd' -- I wasn't
discussing GURPS.


Hell, I could say "if magic in D&D were way cheaper and more easily
replenished and readily available to everyone, then it would make a huge
difference in the quality of life". It could be accurate, too.
However, magic in D&D *isn't* so, at least in 'regular core games'.


Keith
--
Keith Davies "Trying to sway him from his current kook-
keith.davies@kjdavies.org rant with facts is like trying to create
keith.davies@gmail.com a vacuum in a room by pushing the air
http://www.kjdavies.org/ out with your hands." -- Matt Frisch
Anonymous
July 5, 2005 4:37:03 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

David Johnston <rgorman@telusplanet.net> wrote:
> On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 00:53:52 GMT, Keith Davies
><keith.davies@kjdavies.org> wrote:
>
>>... and now the branched thread. (And yes, I know I changed the subject
>>line on my previous message.)
>>
>>We could posit the existence of magic and try to determine what effect
>>that would have on the situation. It may be that between magic and the
>>gods taking a direct hand medicine could be considered roughly
>>equivalent to our own in terms of effectiveness.
>>
>>Me, I suspect not. Where you've got some making things better, those
>>who want to make things worse have comparable tools. RAW, magic is too
>>expensive to be used for 'mundane' purposes. Yes, /remove disease/
>>could cure someone with the Black Plague, but once it started to spread
>>you'd only be able to save certain individuals.
>
> True. Spell casters are usually a minority, sometimes a really small
> minority, and most of them shouldn't be higher than 3rd level. And
> it's easy for someone who is primarily a GURPS player to forget how
> constrained D&D magic users are. Basicly for lower class types you
> aren't going to get access to much more than 0 level spells.
>
>
> So what impact would the 0-level spells have on people's lives?
>
> Create Water: Can help tide the village over when the water source
> has been contaminated until a high level cleric can come and deal with
> the problem or when there's just plain a water shortage. A 3rd level
> cleric (who I'll take as "typical") can produce something like 36
> gallons a day.

Third level clerics probably shouldn't be considered typical. They
won't be uncommon, but there really aren't *that* many of them. At
least according to the demographic tables in the DMG.

Also, 36 gallons of water really isn't that much. It's about 3.5 cubic
feat.

I use more than that when I take a bath.

IIRC, according to DMG you need about a gallon a day, all things
considered. That means that this third-level cleric could keep maybe
three dozen people alive during a drought (and possibly fewer, if it's
also hot). This is without considering crops or animals.

He's not going to make that much difference here.

> Cure Minor Wounds: Cure spells seem to prevent or at least discourage
> infection apart from the actual damage they restore, at least as much
> as modern first aid disinfection. _Big_ difference. And you aren't
> going to see so many villagers hurting themselves per day that you
> can't keep ahead of it. And a Cure Minor really speeds up a 1st level
> character's recuperation from injury.

Indeed it would. I'll even allow that a cleric in a poor farming
village wouldn't charge the villagers the normal 15gp casting cost
(10 * spell level * caster level, * 1/2 because it's a 0-level spell).

> Detect Poison: Is going to help track down the sources of water and
> food chemical contamination related illnesses fairly easily. Much
> more easily in fact than modern medical investigators could do it.

Pretty much.

> Guidance: Effectively means that all the farmers have a +1 for their
> professional skill check for the year because it lasts "until
> discharged".

.... no, don't think so. "1 minute or until discharged" takes the
*lesser* of the two durations.

> Now, note that there is no "Detect Disease" spell in the book
> officially, but it makes sense that it could be detected at the same
> level as Poison or maybe one higher. That would help a lot with
> quarantining contagion.

I wrote one, 0 level (it's rather handy at the right time, but not
generally useful and has little 'real' effect).


In fact, using augmentations (non-core rules here) I had a general form:

Detect Condition
level 0: detect a single type of condition, or that a condition of
some sort is present
level 1: detect and identify type of condition

Each round after the first tells you more on a successful check (like
/detect magic/), but the most general 'detect condition' only
indicates presence or absence.

That is, with /detect poison/ you could determine absolutely whether
something was poisoned, and with a successful Heal check identify the
poison. /detect disease/ was the same -- "he is diseased" *check "the
clap. You've bee naughty, haven't you?"

Or you could do the generic form for triage purposes. "clear clear
clear disease clear wounded clear clear infested clear..." (or rather,
"not clear... disease"), then follow up with more specific examination
and treatment.

This was handy because /remove condition/ has a negative augmentation if
you know exactly what you're treating (reduces spell level by one if you
know you're curing a cold or treating cobra venom, rather than the more
general /remove disease/ or /remove poison/).



Keith
--
Keith Davies "Trying to sway him from his current kook-
keith.davies@kjdavies.org rant with facts is like trying to create
keith.davies@gmail.com a vacuum in a room by pushing the air
http://www.kjdavies.org/ out with your hands." -- Matt Frisch
Anonymous
July 5, 2005 5:09:03 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Tue, 05 Jul 2005 00:37:03 GMT, Keith Davies
<keith.davies@kjdavies.org> wrote:


>Third level clerics probably shouldn't be considered typical. They
>won't be uncommon, but there really aren't *that* many of them. At
>least according to the demographic tables in the DMG.
>
>Also, 36 gallons of water really isn't that much. It's about 3.5 cubic
>feat.
>
>I use more than that when I take a bath.

Which why bathing is counter-indicated during a drought.

>
>IIRC, according to DMG you need about a gallon a day,

The DMG is wrong. Well sort of. A gallon a day isn't an unreasonable
level of drinking for people who want to remain hydrated while
engaging in moderate daily exercise. But for people who are mostly
just lying around in whatever shade is available waiting for the
drought to break, and who are only drinking the minimum required to
stay alive, (rather than the optimum to stay healthy) they can get by
on a lot less water than that, at least for a while.
Anonymous
July 5, 2005 7:03:05 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Tue, 05 Jul 2005 01:09:03 GMT, rgorman@telusplanet.net (David Johnston)
scribed into the ether:

>On Tue, 05 Jul 2005 00:37:03 GMT, Keith Davies
><keith.davies@kjdavies.org> wrote:
>
>
>>Third level clerics probably shouldn't be considered typical. They
>>won't be uncommon, but there really aren't *that* many of them. At
>>least according to the demographic tables in the DMG.
>>
>>Also, 36 gallons of water really isn't that much. It's about 3.5 cubic
>>feat.
>>
>>I use more than that when I take a bath.
>
>Which why bathing is counter-indicated during a drought.
>
>>
>>IIRC, according to DMG you need about a gallon a day,
>
>The DMG is wrong. Well sort of. A gallon a day isn't an unreasonable
>level of drinking for people who want to remain hydrated while
>engaging in moderate daily exercise. But for people who are mostly
>just lying around in whatever shade is available waiting for the
>drought to break, and who are only drinking the minimum required to
>stay alive, (rather than the optimum to stay healthy) they can get by
>on a lot less water than that, at least for a while.

Don't forget the stillsuits!
Anonymous
July 5, 2005 7:53:06 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

In article <42c96b14.23577986@news.telusplanet.net>,
rgorman@telusplanet.net (David Johnston) wrote:

> On Mon, 04 Jul 2005 17:10:45 -0600, Bruce Grubb <bgrubb@zianet.com>
> wrote:
>
> >> Me, I suspect not. Where you've got some making things better, those
> >> who want to make things worse have comparable tools. RAW, magic is too
> >> expensive to be used for 'mundane' purposes.
> >
> >This depends wildly on the the magic system. GURPS Magic and Fantasy give a
> >huge range of magic system that work WAY differently than D&D magic does.
>
> Yes, but that's hardly relevant here. I'd eagerly participate in a
> new Magic vs Technology thread in the GURPS newsgroup, though.

Ask and you shall recieve. :-)
Anonymous
July 5, 2005 8:10:55 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Bruce Grubb wrote:
> In article <slrndck2uq.q56.keith.davies@kjdavies.org>,
> Keith Davies <keith.davies@kjdavies.org> wrote:
>
> > According to DMG3.0 community-building tables (and I understand these
> > tables haven't changed in DMG3.5), a community with <=80 is a thorp.
> > That has a community modifier of -3. Clerics are d6+community modifer;
> > there's only a 1/6 chance a community this size would *have* a Clr3.
> >
> > That is, in the case of a drought there's a 1/6 chance there would be a
> > cleric present in such a thorp with enough power to provide water for
> > the people, for a while at least. And, assuming your estimate was
> > correct, it'd take all his mojo to do it (no healing or other magics for
> > the duration).
>
> I forget do these tables include Adapt (the NPC version of spell casters
> like the Cleric and Wizard)? If not that royally hoses your calculations.
>
> > That is, in core D&D magic can help in specific instances, but I don't
> > think it'd make a huge difference overall. To some people, yes, but
> > relatively few -- not enough to say that it markedly changes the
> > society.
>
> The flip side of this problem is given all the supernatural critters in the
> MM how could such a community survive with so little magic?

Villages generally pay taxes to a noble or a city, and receive
protection in return. Just the way it worked IRL.

And of course, sometimes the system breaks down. That's when you get a
pillaged/razed/annihilated village.

Btw: the supernatural critters in the MM aren't supposed to roam the
countryside under normal circumstances. They're supposed to roam the
wildlands. When they start roaming the countryside, that's when you
send out the call for idiots^H^H^H^H^H^Hheroic adventurers.

Laszlo
Anonymous
July 5, 2005 8:26:03 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

David Johnston <rgorman@telusplanet.net> wrote:
> On Tue, 05 Jul 2005 00:37:03 GMT, Keith Davies
><keith.davies@kjdavies.org> wrote:
>
>
>>Third level clerics probably shouldn't be considered typical. They
>>won't be uncommon, but there really aren't *that* many of them. At
>>least according to the demographic tables in the DMG.
>>
>>Also, 36 gallons of water really isn't that much. It's about 3.5
>>cubic feat.
>>
>>I use more than that when I take a bath.
>
> Which why bathing is counter-indicated during a drought.

It was meant as an example of how *little* water that really is, not
saying "it wouldn't meet my needs". 36 gallons is a lot less than most
people think.

>>IIRC, according to DMG you need about a gallon a day,
>
> The DMG is wrong. Well sort of. A gallon a day isn't an unreasonable
> level of drinking for people who want to remain hydrated while
> engaging in moderate daily exercise. But for people who are mostly
> just lying around in whatever shade is available waiting for the
> drought to break, and who are only drinking the minimum required to
> stay alive, (rather than the optimum to stay healthy) they can get by
> on a lot less water than that, at least for a while.

For a little while, maybe; I haven't actually looked up real minimum
daily water requirements.

Let's pretend only two quarts are needed per day. A 3rd-level cleric
can therefore support about 70 people besides himself (assuming that any
livestock or other animals either take care of themselves -- gaining
moisture through what little grass remains, say -- or has died or is
dying).

According to DMG3.0 community-building tables (and I understand these
tables haven't changed in DMG3.5), a community with <=80 is a thorp.
That has a community modifier of -3. Clerics are d6+community modifer;
there's only a 1/6 chance a community this size would *have* a Clr3.

That is, in the case of a drought there's a 1/6 chance there would be a
cleric present in such a thorp with enough power to provide water for
the people, for a while at least. And, assuming your estimate was
correct, it'd take all his mojo to do it (no healing or other magics for
the duration).

That is, in core D&D magic can help in specific instances, but I don't
think it'd make a huge difference overall. To some people, yes, but
relatively few -- not enough to say that it markedly changes the
society.


Keith
--
Keith Davies "Trying to sway him from his current kook-
keith.davies@kjdavies.org rant with facts is like trying to create
keith.davies@gmail.com a vacuum in a room by pushing the air
http://www.kjdavies.org/ out with your hands." -- Matt Frisch
Anonymous
July 5, 2005 8:43:57 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

In article <slrndcjkna.q56.keith.davies@kjdavies.org>,
Keith Davies <keith.davies@kjdavies.org> wrote:

> Bruce Grubb <bgrubb@zianet.com> wrote:
> > In article <slrndc3s90.pt5.keith.davies@kjdavies.org>,
> > Keith Davies <keith.davies@kjdavies.org> wrote:
> >
> >> Bruce Grubb <bgrubb@zianet.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > But the problem is you are dumping magic in this world which throws the
> >> > *effective* Technology level off. GURPS uses TLx+y to show this.
> >> > Technomancer (called Merlin in Infinate Worlds) is at TL7+1 or higher
> >> > than
> >> > our own TL7 but that is due to magic. The average D&D world seems to
> >> > range
> >> > from TL2+2 (Age of Sail, 1450+) to TL 3+2 (Industrial Revolution, 1730+)
> >> > which throws any assumption on the 'historic' Middle Ages out the
> >> > window.
> >>
> >> ... and now the branched thread. (And yes, I know I changed the subject
> >> line on my previous message.)
> >>
> >> We could posit the existence of magic and try to determine what effect
> >> that would have on the situation. It may be that between magic and the
> >> gods taking a direct hand medicine could be considered roughly
> >> equivalent to our own in terms of effectiveness.
> >>
> >> Me, I suspect not. Where you've got some making things better, those
> >> who want to make things worse have comparable tools. RAW, magic is too
> >> expensive to be used for 'mundane' purposes.
> >
> > This depends wildly on the the magic system. GURPS Magic and Fantasy
> > give a huge range of magic system that work WAY differently than D&D
> > magic does.
>
> Sure. But, given that this is a D&D group, I took your earlier comment
> to be an attempt to use GURPS to illustrate a difference between the
> levels of technology. That is, we (or at least *I*) was still
> discussing how D&D magic would apply.

This opens up the issue of what falls under 'magic' For D&D one tends to
focus on spells almost to the exclusion of all else but GURPS Fantasy
reminds you that is more MUCH MORE.

First you have kinds of magic items: Natural, Alchemy (which in D&D is
really wimpy compared to GURPS), Enchantment, Fetiches, and Holy Relics.

Natural magical items are a real problem in D&D as there is little
indication on how common or accessable they are. Obviously Dragon's blood
is not something Joe Shmoe Commoner is going to be able to easily get but
Mistletoe berry from a oak was though to having healing properties (In
reality Mistletoe berries are poisonous) and Moly which can mess up magical
spells would be easy to get. The idea of plants having low magic
properties in D&D showed up in "Wounds and Weeds" (Dragon #82)

Powdered Unicorn horn is another example of natural magic and with all the
magical critters running lose they may be no shortage of this kind of magic.

Then you have the *type* of magic: Low, Formulaic, and High. D&D Spell
casting is high Magic but this still leave Formulaic (spell casting as it
tends to be described in myth and legend) and Low (the home remedy level)

Finally you have the issue of how common each of these is; something D&D is
not helpful at at all. Sure you have good handle on the High magic and
enchantments but little else. 'D&D magic' is just not spells.
Anonymous
July 5, 2005 8:55:29 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

In article <slrndck2uq.q56.keith.davies@kjdavies.org>,
Keith Davies <keith.davies@kjdavies.org> wrote:

> According to DMG3.0 community-building tables (and I understand these
> tables haven't changed in DMG3.5), a community with <=80 is a thorp.
> That has a community modifier of -3. Clerics are d6+community modifer;
> there's only a 1/6 chance a community this size would *have* a Clr3.
>
> That is, in the case of a drought there's a 1/6 chance there would be a
> cleric present in such a thorp with enough power to provide water for
> the people, for a while at least. And, assuming your estimate was
> correct, it'd take all his mojo to do it (no healing or other magics for
> the duration).

I forget do these tables include Adapt (the NPC version of spell casters
like the Cleric and Wizard)? If not that royally hoses your calculations.

> That is, in core D&D magic can help in specific instances, but I don't
> think it'd make a huge difference overall. To some people, yes, but
> relatively few -- not enough to say that it markedly changes the
> society.

The flip side of this problem is given all the supernatural critters in the
MM how could such a community survive with so little magic? This is where
D&D has major problems: it tries to keep the spell casing classes rare and
yet has dozens of magical critters running amok though the countryside.
Anonymous
July 5, 2005 3:17:23 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Between saving the world and having a spot of tea said

> Btw: the supernatural critters in the MM aren't supposed to roam the
> countryside under normal circumstances. They're supposed to roam the
> wildlands. When they start roaming the countryside, that's when you
> send out the call for idiots^H^H^H^H^H^Hheroic adventurers.

BTW Grubb uses 'problem' when he means I don't understand and Suttie hasn't
told me what to think.

--
Rob Singers
"All your Ron are belong to us"
Credo Elvem ipsum etiam vivere
Anonymous
July 5, 2005 3:29:53 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

In article <bgrubb-617C8F.03530605072005@news.zianet.com>,
Bruce Grubb <bgrubb@zianet.com> wrote:
>
>Ask and you shall recieve. :-)


OK here is an opening question...

Is it possible to quantitate the number of manna points available
per year per unit population, In low, medium, or high manna worlds.

I suppose the key question is does GURPS ever give a clue as to the
'default' frequency of casters.

Given a ballpark figure as to amount of magic available its possible
to gauge the upper limit of what would be possible in that world.

--
Michael
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
NPC rights activist | Nameless Abominations are people too.
July 5, 2005 3:52:46 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

On a dark an dismal Tue, 05 Jul 2005 03:53:06 -0600, in flickering
lamplight Bruce Grubb <bgrubb@zianet.com> scribed with phoenix quill:
>
>Ask and you shall recieve. :-)

This subject is dangerous !
But only because I tend to go on a bit :-)
Why do most games have an either/or attitude about magic and science?
The subject title says a lot.
But I say "why?". There's absolutely no need for magic to have a hard
time dealing with science derived technology.
I remember trying to make a spells that would animate a computer (like
a familiar) and a VR link spell so I could see the Cyberworld without
needing implants.
And others, but they never ever got anywhere.
Because you end up with a ridiculously hard spell, or it's flatly
impossible.
Game balance is a weak excuse, to the point of unacceptable IMO.
Perhaps someone can give me a better reason, something that makes
sense?
Anonymous
July 5, 2005 3:52:47 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

On Tue, 05 Jul 2005 11:52:46 +0100, mike
<Spam.mike@invariant.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

>On a dark an dismal Tue, 05 Jul 2005 03:53:06 -0600, in flickering
>lamplight Bruce Grubb <bgrubb@zianet.com> scribed with phoenix quill:
>>
>>Ask and you shall recieve. :-)
>
>This subject is dangerous !
>But only because I tend to go on a bit :-)
>Why do most games have an either/or attitude about magic and science?
>The subject title says a lot.
>But I say "why?". There's absolutely no need for magic to have a hard
>time dealing with science derived technology.

In fact, most settings with working magic have it coexisting just fine
with technology. You don't see wizards living in caves - they live in
technologically-created towers, castles, or houses. (Yes, stonecutting
is a technology.) They don't go around naked; they wear
technologically-produced clothing. (Weaving is another technology.)
Metalworking is yet another technology, so every magical sword or ring
(save for gifts from the gods) is an example of applied techno-magic.

>I remember trying to make a spells that would animate a computer (like
>a familiar) and a VR link spell so I could see the Cyberworld without
>needing implants.
>And others, but they never ever got anywhere.
>Because you end up with a ridiculously hard spell, or it's flatly
>impossible.

Have you looked at the Technology College in GURPS Grimoire (or Fourth
Edition GURPS Magic)? They seem to have the balance problems licked.

>Game balance is a weak excuse, to the point of unacceptable IMO.
>Perhaps someone can give me a better reason, something that makes
>sense?

--
Rob Kelk Personal address (ROT-13): eboxryx -ng- tznvy -qbg- pbz
"As far as Doug is concerned, "dignity" is just a tragic disease that
other people suffer from."
- Bob Schroeck, talking about his V&V character, 15 March 2005
Anonymous
July 5, 2005 4:27:01 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Keith Davies wrote:

> David Johnston <rgorman@telusplanet.net> wrote:
[...]
> > Cure Minor Wounds: Cure spells seem to prevent or at least discourage
> > infection apart from the actual damage they restore, at least as much
> > as modern first aid disinfection. _Big_ difference. And you aren't
> > going to see so many villagers hurting themselves per day that you
> > can't keep ahead of it. And a Cure Minor really speeds up a 1st level
> > character's recuperation from injury.

> Indeed it would. I'll even allow that a cleric in a poor farming
> village wouldn't charge the villagers the normal 15gp casting cost
> (10 * spell level * caster level, * 1/2 because it's a 0-level spell).

It strikes me as a sensible allowance; presumably one of the things
that Good religions do with the charity monies they receive is using
them to subsidize healing for the poor.

And even a first level cleric can cast CLW, not to mention CMW. I
think, between the two, you'd see a whole lot less death by
misadventure (and possibly childbirth, depending on the details of the
"damage" involved).
[...]
Anonymous
July 5, 2005 4:34:03 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

mike wrote:
> Why do most games have an either/or attitude about magic and science?

Blame Moorcock with his Law/Chaos legacy.

> Game balance is a weak excuse, to the point of unacceptable IMO.
> Perhaps someone can give me a better reason, something that makes
> sense?

Setting amood; making the players have to choose.

Brandon
Anonymous
July 5, 2005 4:55:25 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Keith Davies wrote:
[Regarding a 3rd level Cleric using Create Water to
keep people from dying of thirst during a drought]
> That is, in the case of a drought there's a 1/6 chance there would be a
> cleric present in such a thorp with enough power to provide water for
> the people, for a while at least. And, assuming your estimate was
> correct, it'd take all his mojo to do it (no healing or other magics for
> the duration).

And then this Cleric's superior travels a mile or two upstream
and casts Control Weather every day for a week or so, whatever
it takes to break the drought for everyone in the entire river
valley. Unless someone stops him...he'll be busy with these
high level spells, he'll need a security force to keep
distractions away...adventure seed!

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet
Anonymous
July 5, 2005 7:14:32 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

>mike wrote:
>The subject title says a lot.
>But I say "why?". There's absolutely no need for magic to have a hard
>time dealing with science derived technology.

G4 Fantasy takes a decide what works for your campaign viewpoint on
this. If you have a setting where the sun realy is the flaming chariot
of a god and ligtning realy is thrown by another god like spears then
most technology we have in the real world won't work. The rules of
reality are just too different. OTOH it's also possible that magic and
technology could work together side by side just fine.
To my mind the biggest effect of magic and technology coexisting would
have would be the disincentive to use one for an issue because the
other has already solved the problem. For example if spells to cure
diseases are known science has little incentive to develop germ theory
of disease, vaccination or antibiotics. If golems can do the boring
repetative tasks there will be less incentive to develop technology
like waterwheels or windmills. The result can be a unusual looking
technology that get's the effects of a high tech world with magical
means. Things could of course go the other way, if technology figures
out a solution first a particular branch of magic might not develop.
Likewise if your world has fewer mages a technological solution might
end up being cheaper and easyer than the magical one so the magical
solution will end up being left by the wayside (unless those in power
deliberately supress the technology).
IMO though if magic and technology develop side by side the chances of
getting technology like what we have now are pretty low. The
technology that does develop could be pretty interesting though.
Anonymous
July 5, 2005 8:54:14 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Tue, 05 Jul 2005 04:26:03 GMT, Keith Davies
<keith.davies@kjdavies.org> carved upon a tablet of ether:

> That is, in core D&D magic can help in specific instances, but I don't
> think it'd make a huge difference overall. To some people, yes, but
> relatively few -- not enough to say that it markedly changes the
> society.

I think it will markedly change society, just not the lives of the
poorer folks. Rather like the introduction of modern businesses and
medicine into the thrid world, really.


--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."
Anonymous
July 5, 2005 10:19:38 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

In article <bhokc1tbv4ivcrgllut89dfji1qpvfmp9t@4ax.com>,
mike <Spam.mike@invariant.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

> On a dark an dismal Tue, 05 Jul 2005 03:53:06 -0600, in flickering
> lamplight Bruce Grubb <bgrubb@zianet.com> scribed with phoenix quill:
> >
> >Ask and you shall recieve. :-)
>
> This subject is dangerous !
> But only because I tend to go on a bit :-)
> Why do most games have an either/or attitude about magic and science?

Because the authors are ignorent of things like _Day the Universe Changed_
by James Burke or _The Dancing Wu Li Masters_ by Gary Zukav and the fact
that science itself falls into two sections; natural (hard) and social
(soft) which have slightly different standards.

> The subject title says a lot.
> But I say "why?". There's absolutely no need for magic to have a hard
> time dealing with science derived technology.

But technology is NOT science.
July 5, 2005 10:24:19 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

Bruce Grubb <bgrubb@zianet.com> wrote in
news:bgrubb-40B5DB.04435705072005@news.zianet.com:


> This opens up the issue of what falls under 'magic' For D&D one tends
> to focus on spells almost to the exclusion of all else but GURPS
> Fantasy reminds you that is more MUCH MORE.
>
> First you have kinds of magic items: Natural, Alchemy (which in D&D is
> really wimpy compared to GURPS), Enchantment, Fetiches, and Holy
> Relics.

D&D magic items are more diverse outside the core books. Relics from
Complete Divine are a nice addition. Then in the new Weapons of Legacy we
have bonded weapons that increase in power as one goes up in level. Then
you have campaign setting variants like Forgotten Realm's Shadow Weave
items, and the plethora of d20 books as well.

> Natural magical items are a real problem in D&D as there is little
> indication on how common or accessable they are. Obviously Dragon's
> blood is not something Joe Shmoe Commoner is going to be able to
> easily get but Mistletoe berry from a oak was though to having healing
> properties (In reality Mistletoe berries are poisonous) and Moly which
> can mess up magical spells would be easy to get. The idea of plants
> having low magic properties in D&D showed up in "Wounds and Weeds"
> (Dragon #82)
>
> Powdered Unicorn horn is another example of natural magic and with all
> the magical critters running lose they may be no shortage of this kind
> of magic.
>
> Then you have the *type* of magic: Low, Formulaic, and High. D&D Spell
> casting is high Magic but this still leave Formulaic (spell casting as
> it tends to be described in myth and legend) and Low (the home remedy
> level)

With the new focus on warlock invocations, general spell-like abilities,
artificer abilities, I don't see the problem. Plus, the future Magic of
Incarnum's -soul power- promises a radical new magic system different
from anything seen before in D&D.

> Finally you have the issue of how common each of these is; something
> D&D is not helpful at at all. Sure you have good handle on the High
> magic and enchantments but little else. 'D&D magic' is just not
> spells.
>

That really depends upon the individual campaign.
Anonymous
July 5, 2005 10:24:20 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

In article <Xns968A928EDCC68619void@199.45.49.11>,
Joseph <void@verizon.net> wrote:

> Bruce Grubb <bgrubb@zianet.com> wrote in
> news:bgrubb-40B5DB.04435705072005@news.zianet.com:
>
>
> > This opens up the issue of what falls under 'magic' For D&D one tends
> > to focus on spells almost to the exclusion of all else but GURPS
> > Fantasy reminds you that is more MUCH MORE.
> >
> > First you have kinds of magic items: Natural, Alchemy (which in D&D is
> > really wimpy compared to GURPS), Enchantment, Fetiches, and Holy
> > Relics.
>
> D&D magic items are more diverse outside the core books. Relics from
> Complete Divine are a nice addition. Then in the new Weapons of Legacy we
> have bonded weapons that increase in power as one goes up in level. Then
> you have campaign setting variants like Forgotten Realm's Shadow Weave
> items, and the plethora of d20 books as well.

But if you throw in non-core books the whole social-political setting
implied in the core books takes a trip into la la land. Heck I have ran D&D
games with GURPS Magic in place of D&D standard magic system.

> > Natural magical items are a real problem in D&D as there is little
> > indication on how common or accessable they are. Obviously Dragon's
> > blood is not something Joe Shmoe Commoner is going to be able to
> > easily get but Mistletoe berry from a oak was though to having healing
> > properties (In reality Mistletoe berries are poisonous) and Moly which
> > can mess up magical spells would be easy to get. The idea of plants
> > having low magic properties in D&D showed up in "Wounds and Weeds"
> > (Dragon #82)
> >
> > Powdered Unicorn horn is another example of natural magic and with all
> > the magical critters running lose they may be no shortage of this kind
> > of magic.
> >
> > Then you have the *type* of magic: Low, Formulaic, and High. D&D Spell
> > casting is high Magic but this still leave Formulaic (spell casting as
> > it tends to be described in myth and legend) and Low (the home remedy
> > level)
>
> With the new focus on warlock invocations, general spell-like abilities,
> artificer abilities, I don't see the problem.

The types of magic in of themselves are not a problem; how *common* they
are IS.

> Plus, the future Magic of Incarnum's -soul power- promises a
> radical new magic system different
> from anything seen before in D&D.

Quite frankly I am not impressed but then again I have been using GURPS
Magic as far back as when it was GURPS Fantasy 1e (1986) in place of D&D's
magic system. I posted how to do this and have brought it up to date for
GURPS 4e and D&D3.x
<http://members.aol.com/BruceG6069/GURPS_magic_in_DnD.ht...;
Anonymous
July 5, 2005 10:41:32 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

In article <1120601672.604578.54080@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
"Richard Brown" <rbrown@myriad.com> wrote:

> >mike wrote:
> >The subject title says a lot.
> >But I say "why?". There's absolutely no need for magic to have a hard
> >time dealing with science derived technology.
>
> G4 Fantasy takes a decide what works for your campaign viewpoint on
> this. If you have a setting where the sun realy is the flaming chariot
> of a god and ligtning realy is thrown by another god like spears then
> most technology we have in the real world won't work. The rules of
> reality are just too different. OTOH it's also possible that magic and
> technology could work together side by side just fine.
> To my mind the biggest effect of magic and technology coexisting would
> have would be the disincentive to use one for an issue because the
> other has already solved the problem. For example if spells to cure
> diseases are known science has little incentive to develop germ theory
> of disease, vaccination or antibiotics. If golems can do the boring
> repetative tasks there will be less incentive to develop technology
> like waterwheels or windmills.

All this depends on how costly it is to make these things. In AD&D it was
insanely expensive to make one golem and even in GUPRS it is not cheap. If
your society will tolerate them Zombies are more effective energy costwise.

Then there is the issue of how the magic works which really mess things up.



> IMO though if magic and technology develop side by side the chances of
> getting technology like what we have now are pretty low. The
> technology that does develop could be pretty interesting though.

Which is the problem I have with GURPS Technomancer. The author simply got
lazy and didn't want to dealw itht he profound effect having magic would
have on the world. GURPS Supers had the same problem. You throw in magic or
super power beings c1940's and the likelihood you would get a history close
to ours some 40 years later is about nil.
Anonymous
July 5, 2005 11:06:10 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
> On Tue, 05 Jul 2005 04:26:03 GMT, Keith Davies
><keith.davies@kjdavies.org> carved upon a tablet of ether:
>
>> That is, in core D&D magic can help in specific instances, but I don't
>> think it'd make a huge difference overall. To some people, yes, but
>> relatively few -- not enough to say that it markedly changes the
>> society.
>
> I think it will markedly change society, just not the lives of the
> poorer folks. Rather like the introduction of modern businesses and
> medicine into the thrid world, really.

Which is about what I figure it'd do. IOW: for most people, things
would be much as they were.


Keith
--
Keith Davies "Trying to sway him from his current kook-
keith.davies@kjdavies.org rant with facts is like trying to create
keith.davies@gmail.com a vacuum in a room by pushing the air
http://www.kjdavies.org/ out with your hands." -- Matt Frisch
Anonymous
July 5, 2005 11:13:26 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Bruce Grubb <bgrubb@zianet.com> wrote:
> In article <slrndck2uq.q56.keith.davies@kjdavies.org>,
> Keith Davies <keith.davies@kjdavies.org> wrote:
>
>> According to DMG3.0 community-building tables (and I understand these
>> tables haven't changed in DMG3.5), a community with <=80 is a thorp.
>> That has a community modifier of -3. Clerics are d6+community modifer;
>> there's only a 1/6 chance a community this size would *have* a Clr3.
>>
>> That is, in the case of a drought there's a 1/6 chance there would be a
>> cleric present in such a thorp with enough power to provide water for
>> the people, for a while at least. And, assuming your estimate was
>> correct, it'd take all his mojo to do it (no healing or other magics for
>> the duration).
>
> I forget do these tables include Adapt (the NPC version of spell casters
> like the Cleric and Wizard)? If not that royally hoses your calculations.

They do. They are as common as clerics, according to the tables, and
do have /create water/, but have less spellcasting capacity than
clerics.

>> That is, in core D&D magic can help in specific instances, but I don't
>> think it'd make a huge difference overall. To some people, yes, but
>> relatively few -- not enough to say that it markedly changes the
>> society.
>
> The flip side of this problem is given all the supernatural critters
> in the MM how could such a community survive with so little magic?
> This is where D&D has major problems: it tries to keep the spell
> casing classes rare and yet has dozens of magical critters running
> amok though the countryside.

Well-settled areas will tend to not see those creatures on a regular
basis. In less-settled areas (frontier and the like) the villages will
probably be better fortified (a stockade, perhaps) and will probably be
much closer to more solid defenses (keep, manor house, *something*).
And the local lord is more likely to have some troops available for
dealing with such situations.

It's still not much. It might be easier to consider borderlands to have
about the same overall danger as if the magic beasties weren't there --
if there's a neighboring country, expect border clashes (or at least
testing the border), but the neighbor prevents many monsters from
getting there. If there isn't a neighboring country, there are
monsters, with about as much combined danger -- usually -- as neighbors
would provide.

Bear in mind too that many monsters are just looking for food. They'll
probably focus more on herds than herders. Many of them, at least. No,
the peasants might not be able to do much to stop it, but it'll move on
after having lunch. Maybe.


Keith
--
Keith Davies "Trying to sway him from his current kook-
keith.davies@kjdavies.org rant with facts is like trying to create
keith.davies@gmail.com a vacuum in a room by pushing the air
http://www.kjdavies.org/ out with your hands." -- Matt Frisch
Anonymous
July 6, 2005 12:37:40 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Pillsy <pillsy@mac.com> wrote:
> Keith Davies wrote:
>
>> David Johnston <rgorman@telusplanet.net> wrote:
> [...]
>> > Cure Minor Wounds: Cure spells seem to prevent or at least discourage
>> > infection apart from the actual damage they restore, at least as much
>> > as modern first aid disinfection. _Big_ difference. And you aren't
>> > going to see so many villagers hurting themselves per day that you
>> > can't keep ahead of it. And a Cure Minor really speeds up a 1st level
>> > character's recuperation from injury.
>
>> Indeed it would. I'll even allow that a cleric in a poor farming
>> village wouldn't charge the villagers the normal 15gp casting cost
>> (10 * spell level * caster level, * 1/2 because it's a 0-level spell).
>
> It strikes me as a sensible allowance; presumably one of the things
> that Good religions do with the charity monies they receive is using
> them to subsidize healing for the poor.

Indeed. I assume that's how it works -- charge those who can afford it,
to subsidize those who can't (and probably have greater need, at that).

> And even a first level cleric can cast CLW, not to mention CMW. I
> think, between the two, you'd see a whole lot less death by
> misadventure (and possibly childbirth, depending on the details of the
> "damage" involved).
> [...]

Hmm... on the one hand magic can have this effect. However, looking at
the rules it's probably not that profound, unless the cleric is handy.
If the peasant's got even one hit point left he can get back home and
will be back to top condition inside of a week. If he gets knocked
below zero, there's a decent chance he'll bleed out unless the cleric
can get there in under a minute. If he stabilizes his friends could get
him to the cleric (or the cleric to him), but barring additional damage
he'll then recover on his own anyway. That is, with cure spells it only
makes a difference if the cleric is right there.

The other cases either the guy dies, or gets better, on his own. The
cleric can't be *everywhere*. Now, in a city it may well be easier to
find a capable cleric fast enough -- shorter distances, more clerics
(fewer per capita, though), and more powerful -- but only a small
fraction of the population is urban.

Most people are commoners -- Com1 at that. Any significant damage will
probably kill them outright; anything less, they'll get better without
magic. IOW, magic actually doesn't have much effect because there's
such a small window where healing magic can be applied such that it
makes a difference, to most people at least.


Heh, even today -- we've probably got more medical types per capita
today than they had clerics then, and finding someone with so much as
(significant) first aid can take more than a minute. *911* doesn't get
a medic to you under a minute.

It could be that those about to go on 'dangerous jobs' (treefalling,
say) might be given a potion of /cure light wounds/ or two, just in
case, and I'm very sure that a professional (and well-paid) midwife
would almost certainly carry one or two. However, this gets more
expensive (services might be discounted or free, but item creation,
probably not).


Keith
--
Keith Davies "Trying to sway him from his current kook-
keith.davies@kjdavies.org rant with facts is like trying to create
keith.davies@gmail.com a vacuum in a room by pushing the air
http://www.kjdavies.org/ out with your hands." -- Matt Frisch
Anonymous
July 6, 2005 12:50:44 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

firelock_ny@hotmail.com <firelock_ny@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Keith Davies wrote:
> [Regarding a 3rd level Cleric using Create Water to
> keep people from dying of thirst during a drought]
>> That is, in the case of a drought there's a 1/6 chance there would be a
>> cleric present in such a thorp with enough power to provide water for
>> the people, for a while at least. And, assuming your estimate was
>> correct, it'd take all his mojo to do it (no healing or other magics for
>> the duration).
>
> And then this Cleric's superior travels a mile or two upstream and
> casts Control Weather every day for a week or so, whatever it takes to
> break the drought for everyone in the entire river valley.

If that happens...

> Unless someone stops him...he'll be busy with these high level spells,
> he'll need a security force to keep distractions away...adventure
> seed!

and this is why it might not.

Of course, it may be that there's a drought because someone else's magic
caused it to be so. I've read (and somewhat subscribe to) the idea that
good magic and bad magic more or less cancel each other out.


Keith
--
Keith Davies "Trying to sway him from his current kook-
keith.davies@kjdavies.org rant with facts is like trying to create
keith.davies@gmail.com a vacuum in a room by pushing the air
http://www.kjdavies.org/ out with your hands." -- Matt Frisch
Anonymous
July 6, 2005 1:00:28 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

On Tue, 5 Jul 2005 11:29:53 +0000 (UTC), mlush@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (Mr.
M.J. Lush) wrote:

>In article <bgrubb-617C8F.03530605072005@news.zianet.com>,
>Bruce Grubb <bgrubb@zianet.com> wrote:
>>
>>Ask and you shall recieve. :-)
>
>
>OK here is an opening question...
>
>Is it possible to quantitate the number of manna points available
>per year per unit population, In low, medium, or high manna worlds.

No. While it might be possible there's an upper limit no world has
reached it in any GURPS product. And the fact that the Tech college
allows you to do stuff like turning hydro-power into mana and the
enchantment rules indicate that you can get mana just from ordinary
people, indicates that while magic may produce "pollution" it isn't a
depletable resource and there's no hard limit to how much can be used.


No, the main restricting factor on GURP wizardry is the distribution
of magic aptitude and educational achievement. Assuming of course
that wizardry is no more restrained by fear of demons than the
internal combustion engine is restrained by fear of traffic accidents.


Of course in a world where really systematic exploitation of magic has
started to happen, actual spell casting is likely to be relatively
uncommon in the world at large. It might even be illegal to cast
spells in uncontrolled conditions when magic items are much more
reliable. The typical spell casting wizard, is more likely to be
found in an enchantment factory turning out those magic items, and
disposing of the occasional demon from a muffed enchantment, while
people with magic aptitude who aren't inclined to become salarimen
rely on their ability to use magic items that mundanes can't. And if
the society has mastered the art of using things like volcanos and
waterfalls as powersources for enchantment, magic items, while not
quite able to be cranked out ala Henry Ford, can be produced at a
level that insures that all save the poorest members of society will
have at least one magic item. The magic items will compensate for
their relatively slow production time by being made to last and be
passed down through the generations. Of course there's also alchemy,
but it may not have the same potential since it seems dubious that the
mana enriched plants used to make the potions can be commercially
farmed on a large scale. At least, it might be hard to find the right
fertiliser.
July 6, 2005 3:29:41 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On 5 Jul 2005 11:17:23 GMT, Robert Singers
<rsingers@finger.hotmail.com> dared speak in front of ME:

>Between saving the world and having a spot of tea said
>
>> Btw: the supernatural critters in the MM aren't supposed to roam the
>> countryside under normal circumstances. They're supposed to roam the
>> wildlands. When they start roaming the countryside, that's when you
>> send out the call for idiots^H^H^H^H^H^Hheroic adventurers.
>
>BTW Grubb uses 'problem' when he means I don't understand and Suttie hasn't
>told me what to think.

To be fair, he'll accept the word of Cocytus on what to think as well.

--
Address no longer works.
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gafgirl1@2allstream3.net

--
Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service
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July 6, 2005 3:29:42 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Tue, 05 Jul 2005 20:50:44 GMT, Keith Davies
<keith.davies@kjdavies.org> dared speak in front of ME:

>firelock_ny@hotmail.com <firelock_ny@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Keith Davies wrote:
>> [Regarding a 3rd level Cleric using Create Water to
>> keep people from dying of thirst during a drought]
>>> That is, in the case of a drought there's a 1/6 chance there would be a
>>> cleric present in such a thorp with enough power to provide water for
>>> the people, for a while at least. And, assuming your estimate was
>>> correct, it'd take all his mojo to do it (no healing or other magics for
>>> the duration).
>>
>> And then this Cleric's superior travels a mile or two upstream and
>> casts Control Weather every day for a week or so, whatever it takes to
>> break the drought for everyone in the entire river valley.
>
>If that happens...
>
>> Unless someone stops him...he'll be busy with these high level spells,
>> he'll need a security force to keep distractions away...adventure
>> seed!
>
>and this is why it might not.
>
>Of course, it may be that there's a drought because someone else's magic
>caused it to be so. I've read (and somewhat subscribe to) the idea that
>good magic and bad magic more or less cancel each other out.

Not even necessarily 'bad' magic. If one cleric wants the area to be
a dry grassland so his people can hunt buffalo and live their
traditional nomadic life, while another wants a lush farmland for his
agrarian worshippers, they're going to be asking different things of
the weather without necessarily being evil.
--
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July 6, 2005 4:40:41 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

Bruce Grubb <bgrubb@zianet.com> wrote in
news:bgrubb-DFE396.18095305072005@news.zianet.com:

> In article <Xns968A928EDCC68619void@199.45.49.11>,
> Joseph <void@verizon.net> wrote:

>> D&D magic items are more diverse outside the core books. Relics from
>> Complete Divine are a nice addition. Then in the new Weapons of
>> Legacy we have bonded weapons that increase in power as one goes up
>> in level. Then you have campaign setting variants like Forgotten
>> Realm's Shadow Weave items, and the plethora of d20 books as well.
>
> But if you throw in non-core books the whole social-political setting
> implied in the core books takes a trip into la la land. Heck I have
> ran D&D games with GURPS Magic in place of D&D standard magic system.

The core setting is just Greyhawk Lite. Plenty of official campaigns
settings have drastically different social standards and magic use.

>> > Natural magical items are a real problem in D&D as there is little
>> > indication on how common or accessable they are. Obviously Dragon's
>> > blood is not something Joe Shmoe Commoner is going to be able to
>> > easily get but Mistletoe berry from a oak was though to having
>> > healing properties (In reality Mistletoe berries are poisonous) and
>> > Moly which can mess up magical spells would be easy to get. The
>> > idea of plants having low magic properties in D&D showed up in
>> > "Wounds and Weeds" (Dragon #82)
>> >
>> > Powdered Unicorn horn is another example of natural magic and with
>> > all the magical critters running lose they may be no shortage of
>> > this kind of magic.
>> >
>> > Then you have the *type* of magic: Low, Formulaic, and High. D&D
>> > Spell casting is high Magic but this still leave Formulaic (spell
>> > casting as it tends to be described in myth and legend) and Low
>> > (the home remedy level)
>>
>> With the new focus on warlock invocations, general spell-like
>> abilities, artificer abilities, I don't see the problem.
>
> The types of magic in of themselves are not a problem; how *common*
> they are IS.

D&D magic levels range from the Arcane Age of Faerun to Post-Cataclysm
Ansalon. Use the historical supplements for AD&D if you want to go back
that far. You can judge the verisimilitude for yourself.

>> Plus, the future Magic of Incarnum's -soul power- promises a
>> radical new magic system different
>> from anything seen before in D&D.
>
> Quite frankly I am not impressed but then again I have been using
> GURPS Magic as far back as when it was GURPS Fantasy 1e (1986) in
> place of D&D's magic system. I posted how to do this and have brought
> it up to date for GURPS 4e and D&D3.x
> <http://members.aol.com/BruceG6069/GURPS_magic_in_DnD.ht...;

Well, GURPS is made to be more flexible and generic, but I'm not familiar
with it.
Anonymous
July 6, 2005 5:06:34 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

On 5 Jul 2005 15:14:32 -0700, "Richard Brown" <rbrown@myriad.com>
wrote:

>>mike wrote:
>>The subject title says a lot.
>>But I say "why?". There's absolutely no need for magic to have a hard
>>time dealing with science derived technology.
>
>G4 Fantasy takes a decide what works for your campaign viewpoint on
>this. If you have a setting where the sun realy is the flaming chariot
>of a god and ligtning realy is thrown by another god like spears then
>most technology we have in the real world won't work. The rules of
>reality are just too different. OTOH it's also possible that magic and
>technology could work together side by side just fine.
>To my mind the biggest effect of magic and technology coexisting would
>have would be the disincentive to use one for an issue because the
>other has already solved the problem. For example if spells to cure
>diseases are known science has little incentive to develop germ theory
>of disease, vaccination or antibiotics.

Although it isn't likely they'd have vaccination or antibiotics if
they already Cure Disease spells generally available, I suspect that
knowing that that infectious disease is caused by these little
multiplying creatures is probably as necessary to curing it using
spells as it is using medicine, if not more so. Cure Disease has
Sterilise as a prerequisite for a reason.
Anonymous
July 6, 2005 5:33:31 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

On Tue, 05 Jul 2005 18:41:32 -0600, Bruce Grubb <bgrubb@zianet.com>
wrote:


>
>Which is the problem I have with GURPS Technomancer. The author simply got
>lazy and didn't want to dealw itht he profound effect having magic would
>have on the world. GURPS Supers had the same problem. You throw in magic or
>super power beings c1940's and the likelihood you would get a history close
>to ours some 40 years later is about nil.

GURPS Supers doesn't have a history particularly close to ours. They
have a history where several nukes have gone off in Israel, the United
States has had a black President, and the U.N. is a dominant world
power.
Anonymous
July 6, 2005 5:33:32 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

In article <42cadb7c.30138296@news.telusplanet.net>,
rgorman@telusplanet.net (David Johnston) wrote:

> On Tue, 05 Jul 2005 18:41:32 -0600, Bruce Grubb <bgrubb@zianet.com>
> wrote:
>
>
> >
> >Which is the problem I have with GURPS Technomancer. The author simply got
> >lazy and didn't want to dealw itht he profound effect having magic would
> >have on the world. GURPS Supers had the same problem. You throw in magic or
> >super power beings c1940's and the likelihood you would get a history close
> >to ours some 40 years later is about nil.
>
> GURPS Supers doesn't have a history particularly close to ours. They
> have a history where several nukes have gone off in Israel, the United
> States has had a black President, and the U.N. is a dominant world
> power.

And GURPS Technomancer has Killer Penguins (which has to be the DUMBEST
idea since the Madlands'deities anybody writing a GURPS book has had) a
bunch of communists following Joseph Stalin's animated corpse and so on.

The problem is not there are differences but despite the differences there
are still so many simularities. Like despite all the supers and magic
running around JFK still get killed in Dallas on Nov 11, 1963 on both
worlds.

While were are on it both settings have logic hole one could fly the
Hindenburg though.
Anonymous
July 6, 2005 7:38:45 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

Bruce Grubb wrote:

> And GURPS Technomancer has Killer Penguins (which has to be the DUMBEST
> idea since the Madlands'deities anybody writing a GURPS book has had) a
> bunch of communists following Joseph Stalin's animated corpse and so on.
>
> The problem is not there are differences but despite the differences there
> are still so many simularities. Like despite all the supers and magic
> running around JFK still get killed in Dallas on Nov 11, 1963 on both
> worlds.
>
> While were are on it both settings have logic hole one could fly the
> Hindenburg though.

It's something of a genre convention that worlds with alternate
histories still have lots of weird similarities to our actual history.
Admittedly, it seems to almost be a genre convention that alternate
histories have logic holes you could fly the Hindenburg through as well,
but while I don't approve of that, I think there are ways in which the
convention of retaining considerable similarity to actual history can be
beneficial for a game setting.

--
Aaron Boyden

"I may have done this and that for sufferers; but always I seemed to
have done better when I learned to feel better joys."
-Thus spoke Zarathustra
!