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What to Ban, Complete Warrior

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Anonymous
June 28, 2005 9:58:57 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Here's the list of Pestige Classes with number of hits on google per
Werebat's criteria on banning...

The only one which isn't banned by his rules is the Magicless "Variant
Paladin" which got no hits. As this obviously isn't working I stopped
before going through the feats.

I've sorted them by the number of hits. I think the commonality of the
name has more to do with the hits, even though character optimization
was required... Also many of these, especially Order of the Bow
Initiate existed in previous forms that may be more broken, and
therefore have gotten more hits than they should.

Cavalier 15k
Ronin 967
Dervish 408
Ravager 342
Drunken Master 144
Kensai 124
Bladesinger 99
Dark Hunter 86
Spellsword 85
Hulking Hurler 78
Frenzied Berserker 72
Justiciar 47
Order of the Bow Initiate 43
Warshaper 43
Master Thrower 36
Bear Warrior 35
Purple Dragon Knight 34
Eye of Gruumsh 30
Exotic Weapon Master 28
Halfling Outrider 25
Invisible Blade 24
Tattooed Monk 24
Thayan Knight 23
Rage Mage 18
War Chanter 16
Nature's Warrior 15
Darkwood Stalker 14
Occult Slayer 14
Hunter of the Dead 13
Knight of the Chalice 12
Knight Protector 12
Master of the Unseen Hand 12
Reaping Mauler 12
Mindspy 11
Stonelord 10
Gnome Giant Slayer 7

- Justisaur

More about : ban complete warrior

Anonymous
June 29, 2005 4:33:16 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Justisaur wrote:
> Here's the list of Pestige Classes with number of hits on google per
> Werebat's criteria on banning...

Google reads the WotC Character Optimization board?

I usually have to go to Yahoo to get that.


> The only one which isn't banned by his rules is the Magicless "Variant
> Paladin" which got no hits. As this obviously isn't working I stopped
> before going through the feats.
>
> I've sorted them by the number of hits. I think the commonality of the
> name has more to do with the hits, even though character optimization
> was required... Also many of these, especially Order of the Bow
> Initiate existed in previous forms that may be more broken, and
> therefore have gotten more hits than they should.

That's a fair point. Some things were cleaned up from 3.0 to 3.5.


> Cavalier 15k
> Ronin 967
> Dervish 408
> Ravager 342
> Drunken Master 144
> Kensai 124
> Bladesinger 99
> Dark Hunter 86
> Spellsword 85
> Hulking Hurler 78
> Frenzied Berserker 72
> Justiciar 47
> Order of the Bow Initiate 43
> Warshaper 43
> Master Thrower 36
> Bear Warrior 35
> Purple Dragon Knight 34
> Eye of Gruumsh 30
> Exotic Weapon Master 28
> Halfling Outrider 25
> Invisible Blade 24
> Tattooed Monk 24
> Thayan Knight 23
> Rage Mage 18
> War Chanter 16
> Nature's Warrior 15
> Darkwood Stalker 14
> Occult Slayer 14
> Hunter of the Dead 13
> Knight of the Chalice 12
> Knight Protector 12
> Master of the Unseen Hand 12
> Reaping Mauler 12
> Mindspy 11
> Stonelord 10
> Gnome Giant Slayer 7

Looking at this I'd say if you get 50 hits you're getting into the "hot"
zone. Most seem to think Bear Warrior is an underpowered class, and we
all know about the Hulking Hurler.

- Ron ^*^
Anonymous
June 29, 2005 6:52:40 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Werebat wrote:
> Justisaur wrote:
> > Here's the list of Pestige Classes with number of hits on google per
> > Werebat's criteria on banning...
>
> Google reads the WotC Character Optimization board?
>
> I usually have to go to Yahoo to get that.
>

Ah... I missed that bit about how many WOTC board posts show up.
Almost all of the searches I did showed one WOTC link at the top with
google, and the rest something else. The numbers were the total number
of hits on all the web. I'm pretty sure there's some way to make it
search the WOTC boards, or I could use the WOTC board search, which the
boards say is working, but I can't find it.

I'll have to play with the paramaters.

>
> > The only one which isn't banned by his rules is the Magicless "Variant
> > Paladin" which got no hits. As this obviously isn't working I stopped
> > before going through the feats.
> >
> > I've sorted them by the number of hits. I think the commonality of the
> > name has more to do with the hits, even though character optimization
> > was required... Also many of these, especially Order of the Bow
> > Initiate existed in previous forms that may be more broken, and
> > therefore have gotten more hits than they should.
>
> That's a fair point. Some things were cleaned up from 3.0 to 3.5.
>

I'm not sure how to account for this, as looking at some of the wotc
threads, the'll reference 3.5, but use many 3.0 prestige classes.

(Snip hit list.)

> Looking at this I'd say if you get 50 hits you're getting into the "hot"
> zone. Most seem to think Bear Warrior is an underpowered class, and we
> all know about the Hulking Hurler.
>

Actually, I don't.

- Justisaur
Related resources
Anonymous
June 30, 2005 12:04:43 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Justisaur wrote:
>
> Werebat wrote:
>
>>Justisaur wrote:
>>
>>>Here's the list of Pestige Classes with number of hits on google per
>>>Werebat's criteria on banning...
>>
>>Google reads the WotC Character Optimization board?
>>
>>I usually have to go to Yahoo to get that.
>>
>
>
> Ah... I missed that bit about how many WOTC board posts show up.
> Almost all of the searches I did showed one WOTC link at the top with
> google, and the rest something else. The numbers were the total number
> of hits on all the web. I'm pretty sure there's some way to make it
> search the WOTC boards, or I could use the WOTC board search, which the
> boards say is working, but I can't find it.
>
> I'll have to play with the paramaters.
>
>
>>>The only one which isn't banned by his rules is the Magicless "Variant
>>>Paladin" which got no hits. As this obviously isn't working I stopped
>>>before going through the feats.
>>>
>>>I've sorted them by the number of hits. I think the commonality of the
>>>name has more to do with the hits, even though character optimization
>>>was required... Also many of these, especially Order of the Bow
>>>Initiate existed in previous forms that may be more broken, and
>>>therefore have gotten more hits than they should.
>>
>>That's a fair point. Some things were cleaned up from 3.0 to 3.5.
>>
>
>
> I'm not sure how to account for this, as looking at some of the wotc
> threads, the'll reference 3.5, but use many 3.0 prestige classes.
>
> (Snip hit list.)
>
>
>>Looking at this I'd say if you get 50 hits you're getting into the "hot"
>>zone. Most seem to think Bear Warrior is an underpowered class, and we
>>all know about the Hulking Hurler.
>>
>
>
> Actually, I don't.

You can monkey with the Hulking Hurler and end up with a character that
can do several million points of damage in a single hit, or so I'm told.

- Ron ^*^
Anonymous
July 1, 2005 2:29:39 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Werebat" <ranpoirier@cox.net> wrote in message
news:HGGwe.141909$sy6.105455@lakeread04...
>
>
> Justisaur wrote:
> >
> > Werebat wrote:
> >
> >>Justisaur wrote:
> >>
> >>>Here's the list of Pestige Classes with number of hits on google per
> >>>Werebat's criteria on banning...
> >>
> >>Google reads the WotC Character Optimization board?
> >>
> >>I usually have to go to Yahoo to get that.
> >>
> >
> >
> > Ah... I missed that bit about how many WOTC board posts show up.
> > Almost all of the searches I did showed one WOTC link at the top with
> > google, and the rest something else. The numbers were the total number
> > of hits on all the web. I'm pretty sure there's some way to make it
> > search the WOTC boards, or I could use the WOTC board search, which the
> > boards say is working, but I can't find it.
> >
> > I'll have to play with the paramaters.
> >
> >
> >>>The only one which isn't banned by his rules is the Magicless "Variant
> >>>Paladin" which got no hits. As this obviously isn't working I stopped
> >>>before going through the feats.
> >>>
> >>>I've sorted them by the number of hits. I think the commonality of the
> >>>name has more to do with the hits, even though character optimization
> >>>was required... Also many of these, especially Order of the Bow
> >>>Initiate existed in previous forms that may be more broken, and
> >>>therefore have gotten more hits than they should.
> >>
> >>That's a fair point. Some things were cleaned up from 3.0 to 3.5.
> >>
> >
> >
> > I'm not sure how to account for this, as looking at some of the wotc
> > threads, the'll reference 3.5, but use many 3.0 prestige classes.
> >
> > (Snip hit list.)
> >
> >
> >>Looking at this I'd say if you get 50 hits you're getting into the "hot"
> >>zone. Most seem to think Bear Warrior is an underpowered class, and we
> >>all know about the Hulking Hurler.
> >>
> >
> >
> > Actually, I don't.
>
> You can monkey with the Hulking Hurler and end up with a character that
> can do several million points of damage in a single hit, or so I'm told.
>
That's really a problem with the improvised weapon rules, not the
Hulking Hurler directly.

Geoff.
Anonymous
July 1, 2005 2:29:40 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Geoff Watson" <geoffwatson@pacific.net.au> wrote in message
news:bERwe.22562$Le2.144107@nasal.pacific.net.au...
>
> "Werebat" <ranpoirier@cox.net> wrote

>> You can monkey with the Hulking Hurler and end up with a character that
>> can do several million points of damage in a single hit, or so I'm told.
>>
> That's really a problem with the improvised weapon rules, not the
> Hulking Hurler directly.

Elaborate, please.

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley
Anonymous
July 1, 2005 10:30:20 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Werebat wrote:
> Justisaur wrote:
> > Here's the list of Pestige Classes with number of hits on google per
> > Werebat's criteria on banning...
>
> Google reads the WotC Character Optimization board?
>
> I usually have to go to Yahoo to get that.
>
>
> > The only one which isn't banned by his rules is the Magicless "Variant
> > Paladin" which got no hits. As this obviously isn't working I stopped
> > before going through the feats.
> >
> > I've sorted them by the number of hits. I think the commonality of the
> > name has more to do with the hits, even though character optimization
> > was required... Also many of these, especially Order of the Bow
> > Initiate existed in previous forms that may be more broken, and
> > therefore have gotten more hits than they should.
>
> That's a fair point. Some things were cleaned up from 3.0 to 3.5.

> Looking at this I'd say if you get 50 hits you're getting into the "hot"
> zone. Most seem to think Bear Warrior is an underpowered class, and we
> all know about the Hulking Hurler.
>

I've done some more monkeying with searches. Yahoo definately shows up
more hits. Using the same search paramaters - "Wizards.COMmunity
Boards > d20 System Games > d20 Related Topics > Character
Optimization" "PRC" on boards1.wizards.com (site:boards1.wizards.com on
google, on yahoo have to use the advanced search form AFAICT)

Google:
Bear Warrior 6
Hulking Hurler 13

Yahoo:
Bear Warrior 36
Hulking Hurler 51

I also found the links from yahoo actually work, where I've been having
problems with those from google. But it appears Yahoo is inflating
it's hits, it gives you the blurb for omitting similar results, and
only gives 11 for bear warrior and 20 for Hulking Hurler if you go to
the end of the listing.

And lastly I found another issue with this method, which is that
someone is using Bear Warrior as part of thier sig, significantly
raising the # of hits

It's still probably a good method of identifying problem PRCs, Feats
etc, one just may have to throw out some results like the bear warrior
being higher than it should.

- Justisaur
Anonymous
July 1, 2005 10:38:15 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Tetsubo wrote:
> Benjamin Adams wrote:
>
> >"Malachias Invictus" <capt_malachias@hotmail.com> wrote in
> >news:cuidnZHNK63ATVnfRVn-uQ@comcast.com:
> >
> >
> >
> >>"Geoff Watson" <geoffwatson@pacific.net.au> wrote in message
> >>news:bERwe.22562$Le2.144107@nasal.pacific.net.au...
> >>
> >>
> >>>"Werebat" <ranpoirier@cox.net> wrote
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>You can monkey with the Hulking Hurler and end up with a character
> >>>>that can do several million points of damage in a single hit, or so
> >>>>I'm told.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>That's really a problem with the improvised weapon rules, not the
> >>>Hulking Hurler directly.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>Elaborate, please.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >A Hulking Hurler can throw a light load as an improvised weapon.
> >
> >Now give the hurler some levels of War Hulk (which increases Str
> >instead of BAB) and a means of increasing his size further
> >(access to the Expansion power, say), so his size goes up to
> >Huge or even Gargantuan.
> >
> >With this size and cranked-up Str, the hurler's light load limit
> >is in the tons. So he can throw objects weighing thousands of
> >pounds as improvised weapons.
> >
> >I don't know the exact formula for translating weight into
> >damage for improvised weapons, but at these weights, it gets
> >pretty sick.
> >
> >-Ben Adams
> >
> >
> Or you just say that an improvised weapon can't do more than 20d6
> damage. The tweaked out HH suddenly seems a lot less fun...
>

I got around to reading the threads on wizards about that. They are
making a LOT of assumptions that by the letter of the rules are
correct, like the 20d6 cap only applies to damage from falling objects,
not thrown ones - because for instance one could conceivably cause
something to exceed terminal velocity by putting enough power behind
it. But that would be difficult if not impossible to get all of them
by any DM.

However even with that, just one the first page I read one could get up
to +44 from str alone, which combined with 20d6 is 114 average damage,
and I believe it was mentioned 5 attacks a round, which is a total of
570 damage a round, assuming hits which shouldn't be hard considering
the +44 to hit from strength. I'd still consider that pretty broken.

- Justisaur.
Anonymous
July 1, 2005 1:02:13 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Malachias Invictus" <capt_malachias@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:cuidnZHNK63ATVnfRVn-uQ@comcast.com:

>
> "Geoff Watson" <geoffwatson@pacific.net.au> wrote in message
> news:bERwe.22562$Le2.144107@nasal.pacific.net.au...
>>
>> "Werebat" <ranpoirier@cox.net> wrote
>
>>> You can monkey with the Hulking Hurler and end up with a character
>>> that can do several million points of damage in a single hit, or so
>>> I'm told.
>>>
>> That's really a problem with the improvised weapon rules, not the
>> Hulking Hurler directly.
>
> Elaborate, please.

A Hulking Hurler can throw a light load as an improvised weapon.

Now give the hurler some levels of War Hulk (which increases Str
instead of BAB) and a means of increasing his size further
(access to the Expansion power, say), so his size goes up to
Huge or even Gargantuan.

With this size and cranked-up Str, the hurler's light load limit
is in the tons. So he can throw objects weighing thousands of
pounds as improvised weapons.

I don't know the exact formula for translating weight into
damage for improvised weapons, but at these weights, it gets
pretty sick.

-Ben Adams
Anonymous
July 1, 2005 1:02:14 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Benjamin Adams wrote:

>"Malachias Invictus" <capt_malachias@hotmail.com> wrote in
>news:cuidnZHNK63ATVnfRVn-uQ@comcast.com:
>
>
>
>>"Geoff Watson" <geoffwatson@pacific.net.au> wrote in message
>>news:bERwe.22562$Le2.144107@nasal.pacific.net.au...
>>
>>
>>>"Werebat" <ranpoirier@cox.net> wrote
>>>
>>>
>>>>You can monkey with the Hulking Hurler and end up with a character
>>>>that can do several million points of damage in a single hit, or so
>>>>I'm told.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>That's really a problem with the improvised weapon rules, not the
>>>Hulking Hurler directly.
>>>
>>>
>>Elaborate, please.
>>
>>
>
>A Hulking Hurler can throw a light load as an improvised weapon.
>
>Now give the hurler some levels of War Hulk (which increases Str
>instead of BAB) and a means of increasing his size further
>(access to the Expansion power, say), so his size goes up to
>Huge or even Gargantuan.
>
>With this size and cranked-up Str, the hurler's light load limit
>is in the tons. So he can throw objects weighing thousands of
>pounds as improvised weapons.
>
>I don't know the exact formula for translating weight into
>damage for improvised weapons, but at these weights, it gets
>pretty sick.
>
>-Ben Adams
>
>
Or you just say that an improvised weapon can't do more than 20d6
damage. The tweaked out HH suddenly seems a lot less fun...

--
Tetsubo
My page: http://home.comcast.net/~tetsubo/
--------------------------------------
If fifty million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing.
-- Anatole France
Anonymous
July 1, 2005 1:02:14 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Benjamin Adams" <benadams1@cox.net> wrote in message
news:Xns968614BA4E272benadams1coxnet@68.6.19.6...
> "Malachias Invictus" <capt_malachias@hotmail.com> wrote in
> news:cuidnZHNK63ATVnfRVn-uQ@comcast.com:
>
>>
>> "Geoff Watson" <geoffwatson@pacific.net.au> wrote in message
>> news:bERwe.22562$Le2.144107@nasal.pacific.net.au...
>>>
>>> "Werebat" <ranpoirier@cox.net> wrote
>>
>>>> You can monkey with the Hulking Hurler and end up with a character
>>>> that can do several million points of damage in a single hit, or so
>>>> I'm told.
>>>>
>>> That's really a problem with the improvised weapon rules, not the
>>> Hulking Hurler directly.
>>
>> Elaborate, please.
>
> A Hulking Hurler can throw a light load as an improvised weapon.

Ouch! That gets sickening with increased size.

> Now give the hurler some levels of War Hulk (which increases Str
> instead of BAB) and a means of increasing his size further
> (access to the Expansion power, say),

Expansion? I have not heard of this. What book is it in, and what does it
do?

> so his size goes up to Huge or even Gargantuan.

Heh.

> With this size and cranked-up Str, the hurler's light load limit
> is in the tons. So he can throw objects weighing thousands of
> pounds as improvised weapons.

Yep.

> I don't know the exact formula for translating weight into
> damage for improvised weapons, but at these weights, it gets
> pretty sick.

Of course, carrying that much stuff might be a bit of a pain...

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley
Anonymous
July 1, 2005 4:32:48 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Justisaur wrote:

>
> Werebat wrote:
>
>>Justisaur wrote:
>>
>>>Here's the list of Pestige Classes with number of hits on google per
>>>Werebat's criteria on banning...
>>
>>Google reads the WotC Character Optimization board?
>>
>>I usually have to go to Yahoo to get that.
>>
>>
>>
>>>The only one which isn't banned by his rules is the Magicless "Variant
>>>Paladin" which got no hits. As this obviously isn't working I stopped
>>>before going through the feats.
>>>
>>>I've sorted them by the number of hits. I think the commonality of the
>>>name has more to do with the hits, even though character optimization
>>>was required... Also many of these, especially Order of the Bow
>>>Initiate existed in previous forms that may be more broken, and
>>>therefore have gotten more hits than they should.
>>
>>That's a fair point. Some things were cleaned up from 3.0 to 3.5.
>
>
>>Looking at this I'd say if you get 50 hits you're getting into the "hot"
>>zone. Most seem to think Bear Warrior is an underpowered class, and we
>>all know about the Hulking Hurler.
>>
>
>
> I've done some more monkeying with searches. Yahoo definately shows up
> more hits. Using the same search paramaters - "Wizards.COMmunity
> Boards > d20 System Games > d20 Related Topics > Character
> Optimization" "PRC" on boards1.wizards.com (site:boards1.wizards.com on
> google, on yahoo have to use the advanced search form AFAICT)
>
> Google:
> Bear Warrior 6
> Hulking Hurler 13
>
> Yahoo:
> Bear Warrior 36
> Hulking Hurler 51
>
> I also found the links from yahoo actually work, where I've been having
> problems with those from google. But it appears Yahoo is inflating
> it's hits, it gives you the blurb for omitting similar results, and
> only gives 11 for bear warrior and 20 for Hulking Hurler if you go to
> the end of the listing.
>
> And lastly I found another issue with this method, which is that
> someone is using Bear Warrior as part of thier sig, significantly
> raising the # of hits
>
> It's still probably a good method of identifying problem PRCs, Feats
> etc, one just may have to throw out some results like the bear warrior
> being higher than it should.


At the very least it's a good "heads up" that the DM should carefully
scrutinize something that one of his players wants to try.

- Ron ^*^
Anonymous
July 1, 2005 4:42:43 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Justisaur wrote:

> However even with that, just one the first page I read one could get up
> to +44 from str alone, which combined with 20d6 is 114 average damage,
> and I believe it was mentioned 5 attacks a round, which is a total of
> 570 damage a round, assuming hits which shouldn't be hard considering
> the +44 to hit from strength. I'd still consider that pretty broken.

What +44 to hit from strength? Thrown weapons are ranged weapons
and thus use the dex bonus to hit unless this class changes that
somehow.

DougL
Anonymous
July 1, 2005 5:29:41 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Justisaur wrote:

>Tetsubo wrote:
>
>
>>Benjamin Adams wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>"Malachias Invictus" <capt_malachias@hotmail.com> wrote in
>>>news:cuidnZHNK63ATVnfRVn-uQ@comcast.com:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>"Geoff Watson" <geoffwatson@pacific.net.au> wrote in message
>>>>news:bERwe.22562$Le2.144107@nasal.pacific.net.au...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>"Werebat" <ranpoirier@cox.net> wrote
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>You can monkey with the Hulking Hurler and end up with a character
>>>>>>that can do several million points of damage in a single hit, or so
>>>>>>I'm told.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>That's really a problem with the improvised weapon rules, not the
>>>>>Hulking Hurler directly.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>Elaborate, please.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>A Hulking Hurler can throw a light load as an improvised weapon.
>>>
>>>Now give the hurler some levels of War Hulk (which increases Str
>>>instead of BAB) and a means of increasing his size further
>>>(access to the Expansion power, say), so his size goes up to
>>>Huge or even Gargantuan.
>>>
>>>With this size and cranked-up Str, the hurler's light load limit
>>>is in the tons. So he can throw objects weighing thousands of
>>>pounds as improvised weapons.
>>>
>>>I don't know the exact formula for translating weight into
>>>damage for improvised weapons, but at these weights, it gets
>>>pretty sick.
>>>
>>>-Ben Adams
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> Or you just say that an improvised weapon can't do more than 20d6
>>damage. The tweaked out HH suddenly seems a lot less fun...
>>
>>
>>
>
>I got around to reading the threads on wizards about that. They are
>making a LOT of assumptions that by the letter of the rules are
>correct, like the 20d6 cap only applies to damage from falling objects,
>not thrown ones - because for instance one could conceivably cause
>something to exceed terminal velocity by putting enough power behind
>it. But that would be difficult if not impossible to get all of them
>by any DM.
>
>However even with that, just one the first page I read one could get up
>to +44 from str alone, which combined with 20d6 is 114 average damage,
>and I believe it was mentioned 5 attacks a round, which is a total of
>570 damage a round, assuming hits which shouldn't be hard considering
>the +44 to hit from strength. I'd still consider that pretty broken.
>
>- Justisaur.
>
>
>
For me (as a GM) this doesn't pass the basic, "Does this make sense"
rule. Just because something MIGHT be possible within the framework of
the game mechanics doesn't mean that I have to allow it to exist within
my campaign. Basic "red flags": Where do you find objects that big? How
does one grip them? How can you carry them? How can you carry more than
ONE of them? An improvised thrown weapon has a range increment of 10
feet. Even with a Feat to extend the range to an increment of 20 that
isn't much of a "ranged" threat...

I might even rule that an improvised weapon requires a full round
action. The item isn't design to be used as a weapon after all....

Any player that tried to get this PrC combo passed me would be
laughed off of the gaming table. The idea of a tweaked out HH is fine by
me. If a player wants a one trick pony I'm not going to stop them. Heck,
the Warlock could be described as a one trick pony (though a very cool
one...).

This HH build is like an episode of Knightrider the TV show. EVERY
episode required a car chase, how convenient... "Hey look, a bad guy!
How handy, a HUGE, SOLID object that I can hurl at him! The day is
saved!" If I wanted to play He-man I'd use the rules for TOON...



--
Tetsubo
My page: http://home.comcast.net/~tetsubo/
--------------------------------------
If fifty million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing.
-- Anatole France
Anonymous
July 1, 2005 5:52:32 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Malachias Invictus <capt_malachias@hotmail.com> wrote:
>"Benjamin Adams" <benadams1@cox.net> wrote in message
>> "Malachias Invictus" <capt_malachias@hotmail.com> wrote in
>>> "Geoff Watson" <geoffwatson@pacific.net.au> wrote in message
>>>> "Werebat" <ranpoirier@cox.net> wrote

>> Now give the hurler some levels of War Hulk (which increases Str
>> instead of BAB) and a means of increasing his size further
>> (access to the Expansion power, say),

>Expansion? I have not heard of this. What book is it in, and what does
>it do?

XPsiHB. Kinda like /enlarge person/.

>> I don't know the exact formula for translating weight into
>> damage for improvised weapons, but at these weights, it gets
>> pretty sick.

The rule (in CWar) is that 200 lbs. == 4d6 damage; every additional
200 lbs. or fraction == +1d6.

>Of course, carrying that much stuff might be a bit of a pain...

Well, high-density materials will keep the volume down, but finding
a backpack that will hold several tons of stuff might be difficult.

--
--DcB
Anonymous
July 1, 2005 10:07:01 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

After getting my search refined enough, here's the watch list of
everything in the complete warrior:

CLASSES
6 Hexblade
5 Swashbuckler
3 Samurai

PRCS
13 Hulking Hurler
6 Bear Warrior
4 Drunken Master
4 Frenzied Berserker
4 Order of the Bow Initiate
4 Warshaper
3 Bladesinger
3 Cavalier
3 Exotic Weapon Master
3 Halfling Outrider
3 Invisible Blade
3 Justiciar
3 Master Thrower
3 Occult Slayer
3 War Chanter

FEATS
21 Earth's Embrace
7 Shock Trooper
5 Combat Brute
5 Hammer's Edge
4 Karmic Strike
4 Divine Might
3 Arcane Strike
3 Elusive Target
2 Dash
2 Extra Rage
2 Fleet of Foot
2 Flying Kick
2 Freezing the Lifeblood
2 Improved Combat Expertise

As noted in the previous thread Bear Warrior was in someone's sig, so
we can probably throw that out. Earth's Embrace didn't seem to come up
right, so it's probably able to be thrown out, but someone might have a
different idea about it.

I'm not entirely sure about this list either, as Zen Archery only got
1, and it's possibly overpowered. We can start with this list and move
from here, and move stuff up and down from here.

Here's the ones that didn't make the watch list:

CLASSES
1 Variant Ranger
0 Variant Paladin

PRCs
2 Dark Hunter
2 Dervish
2 Purple Dragon Knight
2 Rage Mage
2 Spellsword
1 Darkwood Stalker
1 Eye of Gruumsh
1 Gnome Giant Slayer
1 Hunter of the Dead
1 Kensai
1 Knight of the Chalice
1 Knight Protector
1 Master of the Unseen Hand
1 Mindspy
1 Nature's Warrior
1 Reaping Mauler
1 Tattooed Monk
1 Thayan Knight
0 Ravager
0 Ronin
0 Stonelord

FEATS
1 Clever Wrestling
1 Close-Quarters Fighting
1 Defensive Strike
1 Defensive Throw
1 Eagle Claw Attack
1 Extend Rage
1 Extra Smiting
1 Fists of Iron
1 Greater Two-Weapon Defense
1 Hold the Line
1 Improved Rapid Shot
1 Improved Toughness
1 Improved Two-Weapon Defense
1 Instantaneous Rage
1 Kiai Shout
1 Greater Kiai Shout
1 Pain Touch
1 Power Critical
1 Ranged Disarm
1 Ranged Pin
1 Ranged Sunder
1 Rapid Stunning
1 Shield Charge
1 Swarmfighting
1 Throw Anything
1 Zen Archery
1 Divine Cleansing
1 Divine Shield
1 Sun School
1 Crescent Moon
0 Arterial Strike
0 Axiomatic Strike
0 Destructive Rage
0 Extra Stunning
0 Eyes in the Back of Your Head
0 Faster Healing
0 Favored Power Attack
0 Flick of the Wrist
0 Greater Resiliency
0 Hamstring
0 Improved Buckler Defense
0 Improved Weapon Familiarity
0 Intimidating Rage
0 Phalanx Fighting
0 Pin Shield
0 Prone Attack
0 Sharp-Shooting
0 Sheild Slam
0 Weakening Touch
0 Divine Resistance
0 Divine Vengeance
0 Divine Vigor
0 Calvalry Charager
0 Formation Expert
0 Giantbane
0 Raptor School
0 Anvil of Thunder
0 Bear Fang
0 High Sword Low Axe
0 Lightning Mace
0 Net and Trident
0 Quick Staff
0 Spinning Halberd
0 Three Mountains

- Justisaur
Anonymous
July 1, 2005 11:51:29 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

DougL <doug.lampert@tdytsi.com> wrote:
>What +44 to hit from strength? Thrown weapons are ranged weapons
>and thus use the dex bonus to hit unless this class changes that
>somehow.

There's a feat in Complete Adventurer (IIRC) that's the opposite
of Weapon Finesse, for thrown weapons.

Donald
Anonymous
July 1, 2005 11:51:30 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Donald Tsang wrote:

> DougL <doug.lampert@tdytsi.com> wrote:
>
>>What +44 to hit from strength? Thrown weapons are ranged weapons
>>and thus use the dex bonus to hit unless this class changes that
>>somehow.
>
>
> There's a feat in Complete Adventurer (IIRC) that's the opposite
> of Weapon Finesse, for thrown weapons.

Power Throw, and all giants should substitute one of their lamer feats
for it. It's stupid that they don't retroactively have it.

- Ron ^*^
Anonymous
July 2, 2005 4:35:10 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Dave Butler wrote:
> Malachias Invictus <capt_malachias@hotmail.com> wrote:

>> Of course, carrying that much stuff might be a bit of a pain...
>
> Well, high-density materials will keep the volume down, but finding
> a backpack that will hold several tons of stuff might be difficult.

This doesn't sound like a skill-reliant build, so just give him cross-class
ranks in UMD and a few wands of Shrink Item.

--
Mark.
Anonymous
July 2, 2005 4:45:50 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Mark Blunden wrote:
> Dave Butler wrote:
>> Malachias Invictus <capt_malachias@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> Of course, carrying that much stuff might be a bit of a pain...
>>
>> Well, high-density materials will keep the volume down, but finding
>> a backpack that will hold several tons of stuff might be difficult.
>
> This doesn't sound like a skill-reliant build, so just give him
> cross-class ranks in UMD and a few wands of Shrink Item.

Forgot to add: The wand will have a limit of 10 cubic feet at default caster
level. A cubical steel missile at that size will weigh 4900 lb, and will
shrink down to weigh 1.225 lb, and be around 1" wide. No need for a
backpack, a pocket will do.

--
Mark.
Anonymous
July 2, 2005 4:45:51 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Mark Blunden wrote:

> Mark Blunden wrote:
>
>>Dave Butler wrote:
>>
>>>Malachias Invictus <capt_malachias@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>Of course, carrying that much stuff might be a bit of a pain...
>>>
>>>Well, high-density materials will keep the volume down, but finding
>>>a backpack that will hold several tons of stuff might be difficult.
>>
>>This doesn't sound like a skill-reliant build, so just give him
>>cross-class ranks in UMD and a few wands of Shrink Item.
>
>
> Forgot to add: The wand will have a limit of 10 cubic feet at default caster
> level. A cubical steel missile at that size will weigh 4900 lb, and will
> shrink down to weigh 1.225 lb, and be around 1" wide. No need for a
> backpack, a pocket will do.

10 cubic feet <> a ten-foot cube!

- Ron ^*^
Anonymous
July 2, 2005 1:21:21 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Werebat wrote:
> Mark Blunden wrote:
>
>> Mark Blunden wrote:
>>
>>> Dave Butler wrote:
>>>
>>>> Malachias Invictus <capt_malachias@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Of course, carrying that much stuff might be a bit of a pain...
>>>>
>>>> Well, high-density materials will keep the volume down, but finding
>>>> a backpack that will hold several tons of stuff might be difficult.
>>>
>>> This doesn't sound like a skill-reliant build, so just give him
>>> cross-class ranks in UMD and a few wands of Shrink Item.
>>
>>
>> Forgot to add: The wand will have a limit of 10 cubic feet at
>> default caster level. A cubical steel missile at that size will
>> weigh 4900 lb, and will shrink down to weigh 1.225 lb, and be around
>> 1" wide. No need for a backpack, a pocket will do.
>
> 10 cubic feet <> a ten-foot cube!

I didn't claim it was. It's just over 2' in each dimension (exactly 2' makes
an 8-cubic-foot cube - I don't have a calculator handy that can cube-root
10, and my maths aren't up to it off-the-cuff). All the above figures were
based on that; one cubic foot of cast steel weighs 490 lb according to a
materials list found via Google, and a 2' wide cube shrinks down to 1/16th
size with Shrink Item, making it 1.5" wide (okay, I dropped the .5
previously) and 1/4000 mass.

--
Mark.
Anonymous
July 2, 2005 5:17:43 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Mere moments before death, Mark Blunden hastily scrawled:
>(exactly 2' makes
>an 8-cubic-foot cube - I don't have a calculator handy that can cube-root
>10, and my maths aren't up to it off-the-cuff).

cube root(10) = 2.15443469

Google loves you.



Ed Chauvin IV

--
DISCLAIMER : WARNING: RULE # 196 is X-rated in that to calculate L,
use X = [(C2/10)^2], and RULE # 193 which is NOT meant to be read by
kids, since RULE # 187 EXPLAINS homosexuality mathematically, using
modifier G @ 11.

"I always feel left out when someone *else* gets killfiled."
--Terry Austin
July 2, 2005 9:12:11 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Fri, 01 Jul 2005 13:29:41 -0400, Tetsubo <tetsubo@comcast.net>
dared speak in front of ME:

>Justisaur wrote:
<Snip>
>>>>Now give the hurler some levels of War Hulk (which increases Str
>>>>instead of BAB) and a means of increasing his size further
>>>>(access to the Expansion power, say), so his size goes up to
>>>>Huge or even Gargantuan.
<snip>

> For me (as a GM) this doesn't pass the basic, "Does this make sense"
>rule. Just because something MIGHT be possible within the framework of
>the game mechanics doesn't mean that I have to allow it to exist within
>my campaign. Basic "red flags": Where do you find objects that big? How
>does one grip them? How can you carry them? How can you carry more than
>ONE of them?

Finding the objects may be questionable, but check the size on the
beast. Huge to Gargantuan.

Grip is not going to be a problem, and carrying them will only be a
matter of finding a strong enough material for Gargantuan sized sacks.

--
Address no longer works.
try removing all numbers from
gafgirl1@2allstream3.net

--
Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service
------->>>>>>http://www.NewsDemon.com&lt;<<<<<------
Unlimited Access, Anonymous Accounts, Uncensored Broadband Access
Anonymous
July 3, 2005 1:29:39 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Ed Chauvin IV wrote:
> Mere moments before death, Mark Blunden hastily scrawled:
>> (exactly 2' makes
>> an 8-cubic-foot cube - I don't have a calculator handy that can
>> cube-root 10, and my maths aren't up to it off-the-cuff).
>
> cube root(10) = 2.15443469
>
> Google loves you.

It says that, but it never calls...

--
Mark.
Anonymous
July 3, 2005 10:20:19 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Kaos wrote:

>On Fri, 01 Jul 2005 13:29:41 -0400, Tetsubo <tetsubo@comcast.net>
>dared speak in front of ME:
>
>
>
>>Justisaur wrote:
>>
>>
><Snip>
>
>
>>>>>Now give the hurler some levels of War Hulk (which increases Str
>>>>>instead of BAB) and a means of increasing his size further
>>>>>(access to the Expansion power, say), so his size goes up to
>>>>>Huge or even Gargantuan.
>>>>>
>>>>>
><snip>
>
>
>
>> For me (as a GM) this doesn't pass the basic, "Does this make sense"
>>rule. Just because something MIGHT be possible within the framework of
>>the game mechanics doesn't mean that I have to allow it to exist within
>>my campaign. Basic "red flags": Where do you find objects that big? How
>>does one grip them? How can you carry them? How can you carry more than
>>ONE of them?
>>
>>
>
>Finding the objects may be questionable, but check the size on the
>beast. Huge to Gargantuan.
>
>Grip is not going to be a problem, and carrying them will only be a
>matter of finding a strong enough material for Gargantuan sized sacks.
>
>
>
I don't unlicensed PCs to carry weapons or wear armour within a
city's limits. Unless the HH is going to convince people he is a form of
construction equipment he isn't going to be that size nor carrying
around said objects.

I think every edition of D&D needs its absurd extremes to keep a
certain segment of the fan base happy. The HH seems to fill that role
for 3.5. Put a cap on damage, make the use of improvised weapons a full
round action and the HH becomes an oddity but not a campaign breaker. Or
you could just present the players with problems that can't be solved
with a "nuke from orbit"...

--
Tetsubo
My page: http://home.comcast.net/~tetsubo/
--------------------------------------
If fifty million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing.
-- Anatole France
Anonymous
July 4, 2005 1:38:42 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Fri, 01 Jul 2005 13:52:32 -0500, Dave Butler
<ci915@freenet.carleton.ca> carved upon a tablet of ether:

> >Of course, carrying that much stuff might be a bit of a pain...
>
> Well, high-density materials will keep the volume down, but finding
> a backpack that will hold several tons of stuff might be difficult.

That's what portable holes are for - they are volume, not weight,
limited. 3 x 3 x 3.1416 x 10 = ~282 cubic feet, and a cubic foot of
iron weighs about 480 pounds. Thus, a Portable Hole can carry about 67
(short) tons of iron (about a third of that weight of stone).


--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."
July 4, 2005 9:35:51 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Sun, 03 Jul 2005 06:20:19 -0400, Tetsubo <tetsubo@comcast.net>
dared speak in front of ME:

>Kaos wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 01 Jul 2005 13:29:41 -0400, Tetsubo <tetsubo@comcast.net>
>>dared speak in front of ME:
>>
>>>Justisaur wrote:
>>>
>>>
>><Snip>
>>
>>>>>>Now give the hurler some levels of War Hulk (which increases Str
>>>>>>instead of BAB) and a means of increasing his size further
>>>>>>(access to the Expansion power, say), so his size goes up to
>>>>>>Huge or even Gargantuan.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>><snip>
>>
>>> For me (as a GM) this doesn't pass the basic, "Does this make sense"
>>>rule. Just because something MIGHT be possible within the framework of
>>>the game mechanics doesn't mean that I have to allow it to exist within
>>>my campaign. Basic "red flags": Where do you find objects that big? How
>>>does one grip them? How can you carry them? How can you carry more than
>>>ONE of them?
>>
>>Finding the objects may be questionable, but check the size on the
>>beast. Huge to Gargantuan.
>>
>>Grip is not going to be a problem, and carrying them will only be a
>>matter of finding a strong enough material for Gargantuan sized sacks.
>>
> I don't unlicensed PCs to carry weapons or wear armour within a
>city's limits. Unless the HH is going to convince people he is a form of
>construction equipment he isn't going to be that size nor carrying
>around said objects.

Yes, that's going to be a seperate problem. Sort of a nonmechanical
factor that can be invoked to at least try to balance the character.


OTOH, you've already offered a potential way around it ;)  Or
alternately, since he's also a War Hulk, he could try to enlist in the
army as a siege engine...

And now that I've said that, I'm sorely tempted to play one.
--
Address no longer works.
try removing all numbers from
gafgirl1@2allstream3.net

--
Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service
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Anonymous
July 5, 2005 8:16:23 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Donald Tsang wrote:
> DougL <doug.lampert@tdytsi.com> wrote:
>
>>What +44 to hit from strength? Thrown weapons are ranged weapons
>>and thus use the dex bonus to hit unless this class changes that
>>somehow.
>
>
> There's a feat in Complete Adventurer (IIRC) that's the opposite
> of Weapon Finesse, for thrown weapons.
>
> Donald

It's called "Brutal Throw," and does indeed let one use STR mod instead of
DEX mod. There's another feat attached to it that lets you use Power Attack
with thrown weapons.
Anonymous
July 6, 2005 3:26:15 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Some Guy <someguy@thedoor.gov> wrote:
>Donald Tsang wrote:
>>
>> There's a feat in Complete Adventurer (IIRC) that's the opposite
>> of Weapon Finesse, for thrown weapons.
>
>It's called "Brutal Throw," and does indeed let one use STR mod instead of
>DEX mod. There's another feat attached to it that lets you use Power Attack
>with thrown weapons.

Yeah, that one's Power Throw. Brutal Throw has no prereqs; Power Throw
requires Brutal Throw, Str 13, and Power Attack (now, if Power Throw yielded
double bonuses for two-handed throws, analogously to Power Attack with
two-handed weapons, as a full-round action that provoked AOOs, it
would be an amazing feat... think "hammer throw" in the Olympic
Decathlon)

Donald
Anonymous
July 6, 2005 7:53:47 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Donald Tsang wrote:
> Some Guy <someguy@thedoor.gov> wrote:
>
>>Donald Tsang wrote:
>>
>>>There's a feat in Complete Adventurer (IIRC) that's the opposite
>>>of Weapon Finesse, for thrown weapons.
>>
>>It's called "Brutal Throw," and does indeed let one use STR mod instead of
>>DEX mod. There's another feat attached to it that lets you use Power Attack
>>with thrown weapons.
>
>
> Yeah, that one's Power Throw. Brutal Throw has no prereqs; Power Throw
> requires Brutal Throw, Str 13, and Power Attack (now, if Power Throw yielded
> double bonuses for two-handed throws, analogously to Power Attack with
> two-handed weapons, as a full-round action that provoked AOOs, it
> would be an amazing feat... think "hammer throw" in the Olympic
> Decathlon)
>
> Donald

Or the old 1984 Apple commercial.
Anonymous
July 7, 2005 8:53:51 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Tetsubo wrote:
> Kaos wrote:
>> Grip is not going to be a problem, and carrying them will only be a
>> matter of finding a strong enough material for Gargantuan sized sacks.
> I don't unlicensed PCs to carry weapons or wear armour within a
> city's limits. Unless the HH is going to convince people he is a form of
> construction equipment he isn't going to be that size nor carrying
> around said objects.

What about that handy barrel, wagon wheel, or for something more substantial, that steel
armoured human that is standing there, just waiting to be bopped on the head
unconscious(or not) and hurled?
--
"... respect, all good works are not done by only good folk. For within these Trials, we
shall do what needs to be done."
--till next time, Jameson Stalanthas Yu -x- <<poetry.dolphins-cove.com>>
December 8, 2007 1:06:56 AM

I've always found that making rooms out of superhard materials and giving them elastic collision-enducing properties, as well as using creatures with high ACs, generally results in fun for the hulking hurler.

Hulking hurler: "I throw a mountain at the armoured pixie!"

DM: "It misses. It strikes the wall and bounced back at you." (Rolls again, twice) "The pixie dodges out of the way of the mountain, and it lands squarely upon you. Take 2734d6 damage."
!