Sign in with
Sign up | Sign in
Your question

[kjd-imc] 'Sword Mage' feats (was: [PrC] Sword mage: a wiz..

Last response: in Video Games
Share
Anonymous
June 30, 2005 9:39:25 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

As promised, here are some feats that I think could be used to
reasonably (and perhaps better) model the Sword Mage prestige class
Jasin wants.

Several of the abilities of the class may be directly modeled with
feats. In fact, some *are* feats (Cleave and Great Cleave).

.. 'Eschew Materials' largely replaces the 'Live by the Sword' class
ability. LbtS removes the need for trivial components and foci (as
Eschew Materials does), and requires that both hands be on the sword.
The spell cast this way is *not* Stilled, it just has different
somatic components (successfully grappling should still prevent
casting spells that normally have somatic components, IOW).

Actually, further consideration indicates that this actually *doesn't*
need or use alternative somatic components -- you charge the weapon in
one action then use it another. You can easily *hold* a greatsword in
one hand, you just can't *use* it with one hand.

.. 'Through the Blade' is way too powerful as written. It encompasses
several feats, including, in effect, an expensive metamagic feat. I
would instead consider:

Through the Blade [Spell]
Prereq: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Weapon Focus, BAB +4,
able to cast 3rd-level spells, Spellcraft 10+ ranks
Benefit: You may cast a spell into a melee weapon with which you
have Weapon Focus that you are using. The next successful attack
made with the weapon will release the spell on the creature or
object hit. The spell will remain in the weapon for a number of
rounds equal to your caster level or until discharged, whichever
is less.
This melee attack replaces any touch attack required by the
spell. Saving throws and spell resistance apply normally.
If you fail with the melee attack, but would have succeeded with
a touch attack against the target, the spell will still affec the
target normally (including any saves or spell resistance).
You cannot use this feat to charge a weapon another character is
using, and if you are disarmed the charge will be dissipated.
However, if you throw the weapon the charge will remain on the
weapon long enough for it to hit something, be it another creature
or the ground.
Special: If you use a Quickened spell for this purpose, it will be
cast into the weapon as a swift action, but for only a +3 level
increase, if applicable. A spontaneous caster would pay only the
+3 level increase, as would a prepared caster who prepares the
Quickened spell *for this purpose* (he would not be able to cast
the spell Quickened for any other purpose, though he could still
cast it as a standard action).
Note: Not metamagic because it doesn't change the spell, merely how
it is cast. In general, 'no spell level adjustment' means 'not
metamagic'.

The bonuses gained to spell penetration are best gained using the
Spell Penetration (and Greater Spell Penetration) feat.

The bonuses gained to save DC can be done with Spell Focus. However,
that works on spells of one school at a time, where here I may want
something a little broader. I came up with a set of metamagic feats
that increase save DC of spells cast Through the Blade.

Blade Spell [Metamagic]
Prereq: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Weapon Focus, Through the Blade,
BAB +4, able to cast 3rd-level spells, Spellcraft 10+ ranks
Benefit: You may increase the spell slot used to cast a spell
Through the Blade by 1 for a +2 increase in save DC for that
spell.

Improved Blade Spell [Metamagic]
Prereq: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Weapon Focus, Through the Blade,
Blade Spell, BAB +4, able to cast 3rd-level spells, Spellcraft 10+
ranks
Benefit: You may increase the spell slot used to cast a spell
Through the Blade by 1 for a +2 increase in save DC for that
spell.
Special: This stacks with Blade Spell.

Greater Blade Spell [Metamagic]
Prereq: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Weapon Focus, Through the Blade,
Blade Spell, Improved Blade Spell, BAB +4, able to cast 3rd-level
spells, Spellcraft 10+ ranks
Benefit: You may increase the spell slot used to cast a spell
Through the Blade by 1 for a +2 increase in save DC for that
spell.
Special: This stacks with Blade Spell and Improved Blade Spell.

These feats are something of a cross between Spell Focus and Heighten
Spell.

. Almost any spell can be cast Through the Blade. This is way broader
than Spell Focus should apply to, event at +1 save DC.
. These feats only increase save DC in exchange for the higher-level
slot -- faster than Heighten Spell.
. Heighten Spell is a fairly lame feat, all things considered (why
cast a lower-level spell using a higher-level slot if you could just
cast a higher-level spell?)

I figured that if I increase the cost of the ability, but have it
worth more per use, it should be about right. Thus, for three feats
you can gain up to +6 (+3 *really*, since you're using a higher-level
spell slot) to the save DC of a spell cast Through the Blade.

I liked the Spell Cleave idea, but Nik convinced me a different
mechanism is probably better:

Charge the Blade [Metamagic,Spell]
Prereq: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Extend Spell, Weapon Focus,
Through the Blade, BAB +4, able to cast 3rd-level spells,
Spellcraft 10+ ranks
Benefit: A spell cast Through the Blade may affect all targets
struck in a single round, rather than being discharged on the
first successful strike. This uses a spell slot one level higher
than normal.
This does not affect the duration you can hold the charge. The
spell discharges over the course of a round rather than on the
first strike. Once you successfully strike, the spell will affect
all targets hit until the beginning of your next turn.

This is better than Spell Cleave overall -- it's reliable, doesn't
require two other feats, but does require *one* other feat and a
higher level spell slot. However, just in case you've got someone
with Cleave who wants to be able to do this when he gets lucky:

Spell Cleave [Spell]
Prereq: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Weapon Focus, Through the Blade,
Cleave, Great Cleave, Str 13+, BAB +4, able to cast 3rd-level
spells, Spellcraft 10+ ranks
Benefit: If you drop a creature casting Through the Blade, you may
immediately make an attack against another creature you threaten,
with the same weapon, at the same base attack bonus, and with the
same spell being cast Through the Blade. You may not take a 5
foot step between the attacks.
If you also have Great Cleave, there is no limit to the number
of times you can Spell Cleave in a round. However, if the spell
is discharged you can only Cleave normally.


So, here's the full feat tree:

Craft Magic Arms and Armor
+ Through the Blade (Weapon Focus)
+ Blade Spell
+ Improved Blade Spell
+ Greater Blade Spell
+ Charge the Blade
+ Spell Cleave (Power Attack, Cleave)

Other useful feats: Eschew Materials, Spell Penetration, Quicken Spell

The earliest you can get Through the Blade, in core rules, *in theory*
(the feats come at the wrong time):

Ftr2/Wiz5 or Ftr1/Wiz6
Ftr2/Sor6
Brd7 (Brd 8 with Cha < 16)
Wiz8
Sor8

Practically:

Ftr1/Wiz8, Ftr2/Wiz7, Ftr3/Wiz6, Ftr4/Wiz5
Ftr1/Sor8, Ftr2/Sor7, Ftr3/Sor6
Brd9
Wiz9
Sor9

Ftr2/Wiz5
1 Ftr1 : all martial proficiency; weapon focus
2 Ftr2 : weapon focus (another weapon, why not?) or power attack
3 Wiz1 : Extend Spell
6 Wiz4 : Craft Magic Arms and Armor
7 Wiz5 : [Item Creation or Metamagic; RAW doesn't recognize 'Spell']
9 Wiz7 : Through the Blade
10 Wiz8 : Charge the Blade
12 Wiz10: Blade Spell
15 Wiz13: Improved Blade Spell
18 Wiz16: Greater Blade Spell

1 Wiz1 : Extend Spell
3 Wiz3 : Craft Magic Arms and Armor
5 Ftr1 : all martial proficiency, Weapon Focus
6 Wiz5 : [Item Creation or Metamagic]
7 Ftr2 : (whatever; qualify, but feat not available)
9 Wiz7 : Through the Blade

Ftr2/Sor6
1 Ftr1 : all martial proficiency; weapon focus
2 Ftr2 : weapon focus (another weapon) or power attack
3 Sor1 : Extend Spell
6 Sor4 : Craft Magic Arms and Armor
9 Sor7 : Through the Blade

Brd7
1 Brd1 : Extend Spell
3 Brd3 : Weapon Focus
6 Brd6 : Craft Magic Arms and Armor
9 Brd9 : Through the Blade

Wiz8
1 Wiz1 : Proficiency/Extend Spell
3 Wiz3 : Weapon Focus
5 Wiz5 : Craft Magic Arms and Armor
6 Wiz6 : Extend Spell/Quicken
9 Wiz9 : Through the Blade

Sor8
1 Sor1 : Proficiency/Extend Spell
3 Sor3 : Weapon Focus
6 Sor6 : Craft Weapons and Armor
9 Sor9 : Through the Blade


So, it appears 9th level is the *earliest* it is possible for a
character to qualify for this feat, RAW. If certain changes were made
it could be backed off to as early as sixth level (Spellcraft 9+ ranks,
+3 BAB, allow Wizards to take [Spell] feats, etc.). Through the Blade
may be an advanced ability, but I don't think it's so powerful that it
would be out of line at 6th level.

In some cases above the feat can't be taken until 9th level simply
because there's no slot available between 6th and 9th level, or the slot
available can't take a [Spell] feat. If a wizard *could*, a Ftr2/Wiz5
*would* qualify (BAB +4, 10 ranks, 3rd-level arcane spells, bonus slot
at 5th level). OTOH, this feels more like a sorcerer schtick than a
wizard schtick, so it's probably okay.


Keith
--
Keith Davies "Trying to sway him from his current kook-
keith.davies@kjdavies.org rant with facts is like trying to create
keith.davies@gmail.com a vacuum in a room by pushing the air
http://www.kjdavies.org/ out with your hands." -- Matt Frisch
Anonymous
June 30, 2005 1:39:06 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Keith Davies wrote:

<snip crunchy bits>

> The earliest you can get Through the Blade, in core rules, *in theory*
> (the feats come at the wrong time):
>
> Ftr2/Wiz5 or Ftr1/Wiz6
> Ftr2/Sor6
> Brd7 (Brd 8 with Cha < 16)
> Wiz8
> Sor8
>
> Practically:
>
> Ftr1/Wiz8, Ftr2/Wiz7, Ftr3/Wiz6, Ftr4/Wiz5
> Ftr1/Sor8, Ftr2/Sor7, Ftr3/Sor6
> Brd9
> Wiz9
> Sor9
>
> Ftr2/Wiz5
> 1 Ftr1 : all martial proficiency; weapon focus
> 2 Ftr2 : weapon focus (another weapon, why not?) or power attack
> 3 Wiz1 : Extend Spell
> 6 Wiz4 : Craft Magic Arms and Armor
> 7 Wiz5 : [Item Creation or Metamagic; RAW doesn't recognize 'Spell']
> 9 Wiz7 : Through the Blade
> 10 Wiz8 : Charge the Blade
> 12 Wiz10: Blade Spell
> 15 Wiz13: Improved Blade Spell
> 18 Wiz16: Greater Blade Spell
>

the build above doesn't work since it has a Wiz4 taking Craft Magic
Arms and Armor, but you can swap level 6 & 7 to the same effect, so
say, take empower spell or quicken spell at level 6 and then CMA&A at
character level 7 (wiz 5).


> 1 Wiz1 : Extend Spell
> 3 Wiz3 : Craft Magic Arms and Armor
> 5 Ftr1 : all martial proficiency, Weapon Focus
> 6 Wiz5 : [Item Creation or Metamagic]
> 7 Ftr2 : (whatever; qualify, but feat not available)
> 9 Wiz7 : Through the Blade

I'm not sure what the above is, but it also doesn't work since a Wiz3
can't take Craft Magic Arms and Armor. Unless this is in your campaign,
with your alternate rules? Not meant as an attack, I'm just confused.

>
> Ftr2/Sor6
> 1 Ftr1 : all martial proficiency; weapon focus
> 2 Ftr2 : weapon focus (another weapon) or power attack
> 3 Sor1 : Extend Spell
> 6 Sor4 : Craft Magic Arms and Armor
> 9 Sor7 : Through the Blade

Same problem, Sor4 can't take CMA&A

>
> Brd7
> 1 Brd1 : Extend Spell
> 3 Brd3 : Weapon Focus
> 6 Brd6 : Craft Magic Arms and Armor
> 9 Brd9 : Through the Blade

yay! one that works :) 

<snip rest of builds that seem to be work>

Overall, an interesting concept.
Anonymous
June 30, 2005 9:58:01 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

jcharpak@att.net <jcharpak@att.net> wrote:
> Keith Davies wrote:
>
><snip crunchy bits>
>
>> The earliest you can get Through the Blade, in core rules, *in theory*
>> (the feats come at the wrong time):
>>
>> Ftr2/Wiz5 or Ftr1/Wiz6
>> Ftr2/Sor6
>> Brd7 (Brd 8 with Cha < 16)
>> Wiz8
>> Sor8
>>
>> Practically:
>>
>> Ftr1/Wiz8, Ftr2/Wiz7, Ftr3/Wiz6, Ftr4/Wiz5
>> Ftr1/Sor8, Ftr2/Sor7, Ftr3/Sor6
>> Brd9
>> Wiz9
>> Sor9
>>
>> Ftr2/Wiz5
>> 1 Ftr1 : all martial proficiency; weapon focus
>> 2 Ftr2 : weapon focus (another weapon, why not?) or power attack
>> 3 Wiz1 : Extend Spell
>> 6 Wiz4 : Craft Magic Arms and Armor
>> 7 Wiz5 : [Item Creation or Metamagic; RAW doesn't recognize 'Spell']
>> 9 Wiz7 : Through the Blade
>> 10 Wiz8 : Charge the Blade
>> 12 Wiz10: Blade Spell
>> 15 Wiz13: Improved Blade Spell
>> 18 Wiz16: Greater Blade Spell
>>
>
> the build above doesn't work since it has a Wiz4 taking Craft Magic
> Arms and Armor, but you can swap level 6 & 7 to the same effect, so
> say, take empower spell or quicken spell at level 6 and then CMA&A at
> character level 7 (wiz 5).

Carp. I misremembered the level prereq for CMAaA -- the enhancement
bonus is limited to one-third your caster level, so I probably went
"need to be 3rd level for +1, therefore can take a 3rd level".

You're right, though -- he can take CMAaA at 7th level. He still
qualifies for Through the Blade at that point (but has no slot to take
it with). He's still can't get Through the Blade until 9th level.

>> 1 Wiz1 : Extend Spell
>> 3 Wiz3 : Craft Magic Arms and Armor
>> 5 Ftr1 : all martial proficiency, Weapon Focus
>> 6 Wiz5 : [Item Creation or Metamagic]
>> 7 Ftr2 : (whatever; qualify, but feat not available)
>> 9 Wiz7 : Through the Blade
>
> I'm not sure what the above is, but it also doesn't work since a Wiz3
> can't take Craft Magic Arms and Armor. Unless this is in your campaign,
> with your alternate rules? Not meant as an attack, I'm just confused.

It's an alternate build for Ftr/Wiz; I was trying to see if rearranging
the class levels made a difference, made a slot available at the right
time.

And as it happens, IMC a Wiz3 *can* take CMAaA. A Wiz1 can, in fact;
I've removed the level prereqs on item creation feats. There are
generally practical considerations (money and XP) that make the level
prereqs kind of redundant. I'm also trying to link them together more
(for instance, Craft Staff no longer has the high level prereq, but does
have Craft Wand as a prereq).

Neither here nor there, I was trying to write up for core rules.

>> Ftr2/Sor6
>> 1 Ftr1 : all martial proficiency; weapon focus
>> 2 Ftr2 : weapon focus (another weapon) or power attack
>> 3 Sor1 : Extend Spell
>> 6 Sor4 : Craft Magic Arms and Armor
>> 9 Sor7 : Through the Blade
>
> Same problem, Sor4 can't take CMA&A

I was consistent in my error, at least. This build wouldn't be able to
take Through the Blade at 9th. If the class levels get rearranged,
though:

1 Sor1 : Extend Spell
3 Sor3 : (something)
6 Sor6 : Craft Magic Arms and Armor
7 Ftr1 : proficiency, Weapon Focus
8 Any
9 Any : Through the Blade

Straight Sorcerer would be

1 Sor1 : proficiency
3 Sor3 : Weapon Focus
6 Sor6 : Craft Magic Arms and Armor
9 Sor9 : Through the Blade

>> Brd7
>> 1 Brd1 : Extend Spell
>> 3 Brd3 : Weapon Focus
>> 6 Brd6 : Craft Magic Arms and Armor
>> 9 Brd9 : Through the Blade
>
> yay! one that works :) 

Coincidence. I figured Weapon Focus would be a more useful feat at Brd3
than CMAaA.

><snip rest of builds that seem to be work>
>
> Overall, an interesting concept.

Thanks. I think it probably works better than Jasin's proposed Sword
Mage class.


Keith
--
Keith Davies "Trying to sway him from his current kook-
keith.davies@kjdavies.org rant with facts is like trying to create
keith.davies@gmail.com a vacuum in a room by pushing the air
http://www.kjdavies.org/ out with your hands." -- Matt Frisch
Anonymous
July 1, 2005 3:35:09 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Keith Davies <keith.davies@kjdavies.org> wrote in
news:slrndc71cc.c6.keith.davies@kjdavies.org:

> . 'Through the Blade' is way too powerful as written. It
> encompasses
> several feats, including, in effect, an expensive metamagic
> feat. I would instead consider:
>
> Through the Blade [Spell]
> Prereq: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Weapon Focus, BAB +4,
> able to cast 3rd-level spells, Spellcraft 10+ ranks

Isn't this still too powerful? Consider how it might be abused:
suppose a spellcaster were to pre-charge a slew of daggers then
teleport or dimension door straight into combat. Or a spellcasting
archer could stay in cover and prepare spelled arrows at leisure.
How about a blunt arrow with Heal on it? Consider the effect of
Time Stop, either when the spellcaster is preparing, or as a
stored spell on the weapon. It's like having a lot of single-use
Rings of Spell Storing.

This seriously needs to be a Metamagic feat. The delayed effect is
worth +4 levels in itself (qv Delayed Blast Fireball) - and note
that the delay there is very short. And then there's the better
chance of affecting the target - touch AC vs combat AC.

The only way I'd mitigate the level increase would be by requiring
a significant cost in XP: the character is in effect enchanting a
single-use item. You could re-cast this as a feat:

Fast Enchantment: A spellcaster with this feat may rapidly imbue a
non-perishable item (e.g. wand, weapon, or shield, but not scroll)
which he can already enchant via the appropriate feat with one
charge per turn, at a cost of <insert suitable amount of XP>. The
spellcaster must have the spell memorised and the spell slot is
expended. 250 XP per spell level seems a decent start.
!