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Design the $1300 smp magnum opus!

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June 20, 2002 6:53:56 PM

I appreciate all the responses I've had over the last couple days in my search for a system that can mega-multitask for under $1500 (excluding monitor). Many seemed to say if they had $1200 then something serious could be done to crunch away at multi-media, large database, and VBA scripted processes in the background while continuing with word processing, surfing in the foreground. I don't see myself doing all five at once but typically at least one heavy-duty chore will be running while I continue with other lighter tasks. The idea is a beefy general-purpose multi-tasker vs. a high end gamer.

Too keep costs down dual Athlons were most often recommended with additional care required on my part to keep noise and heat at acceptable levels. Now I'm hoping for blue prints to sample rigs or perhaps a listing of the core components of such a system (mb, cpu, disks, ram). I need to keep it around $1300 otherwise it'll take more diplomacy than I think I can generate to explain why we need to spend so much for a 'computer' when the local gaming shop that's going out of business can sell us their 800 MHz Celeron for $500.

Here some advice I've had so far. Please render your own artistic solution.

"I would go with an 18 gig SCSI 10k rpm main drive and two 120 gig IDE drives in a RAID 0 array for your temp/video editing drive."

"For the price of a single 2.53 GHz P4 you could get dual 2100+ and still have more than a hundred $$$ to spare. You could get ECC DDR for less than the price of rambus. "

"With a multi-processor system and an SMP-compatible OS, standard applications can run concurrently with much less degradation in performance. Even if the applications themselves are not SMP-optimized, the operating system will multi-thread the programs themselves and distribute the tasks to each of the CPUs."

"AMD socket A is a good platform with a lot of headroom for future upgrades, on the other hand, Intel is discontinuing sockets 370 and 423 in favor of socket 478. To my knowledge, no dual socket 478 motherboards exist. Intel's SMP Xeon and Itanium solution cost waaaay too much to be considered. Dual Athlon MPs and dual P3 would both be good setups if you provide them with a LOT of RAM. "

"Your best bet right now is definitely going to be a dual Xeon solution. It will give you the power you need, plus the "response" for your foreground applications. I would suggest something with Rambus, since you will be doing things that will stress the memory/cpu bus more than anything will. Get a nice board that fully supports the 533FSB, to allow for future upgrades. Get a single, very fast SCSI drive. "

"Dual XP processors are a good way to go and you can use like dual 1800s or something of that nature. As far as quiet cooling goes, it only has to do with the quality of stuff you use. Expert builders know that X HSF is better than Y HSF for noise reasons, etc. Use nothing other than Panaflo case fans, and look for a heat sink and fan (HSF) that has a low decibel rating but is still decent in cooling. "

"The AMD 1800+ CPU and Maxtor D740X hard drives are two examples. The Asus A7M266D is quite a nice board if you decide do go with dual processors. With a good 400W ATX12V PSU it should be a solid machine for a few years I'd think. Extra heat? Yes. A few additional case fans and decent copper heat sinks should do the trick."

"As you approach the latest and greatest technology, you will find that you can easily spend twice the money for only 10% more performance. P4 Xeons (specifically the motherboards for such), 15k SCSI hard drives, and GeForce4 4600's are good examples of such issues (when compared to dual XPs, 7200rpm IDE hard drives, and Radeons, respectively). "

"I would not pay attention to cost. I would look at what specs you need and then see what the best pricing is for those particular specs. If you sacrifice on specs because of price, my experience is that you are going to regret it later down the track because you may realize that some component of the system does not stand up to what you need it to do, and if this is true, doing things the cost wise way around may prove to be more trouble than it is worth."

"If you are going to be serving in a disk intensive environment, U160 SCSI is the only thing to consider. SCSI can handle multiple I/Os concurrently whereas IDE is single threaded."
June 20, 2002 8:51:18 PM

It took a bit of tweaking and decision making to get it under $1500. Decisions had to be made and ultimately, SCSI just didn't survive the cuts. Still, you end up with a top-notch IDE drive for database and a livable IDE drive for OS and personal use; plus it's a dualie system.

Antec Performance Plus 1080 Case w/ 430w PS = $119
MSI K7D Master-L AMD-760 dualie mobo w/lan = $228
Athlon 1600+ MP - 1.4GHz (retail) = $140
Athlon 1600+ MP - 1.4GHz (retail) = $140
Western Digital WD1000JB 100GB 7200RPM 8MB Cache = $152
Maxtor 80.0GB 5400RPM = $81
ATI RADEON 7500 64MB DDR = $54
Pioneer 16x slot-load DVD = $42
Samsung 512MB PC2100 ECC and Registered DIMM = $114
Samsung 512MB PC2100 ECC and Registered DIMM = $114
Microsoft Windows XP Pro = $299
Generic PS/2 104-key Keyboard = $4
Microsoft PS/2 Intellimouse = $6
3.5inch Floppy = $4
--------------------
Total = $1497


Tech support said take a screen shot.
Putting it down with my .22 was the humane thing to do.
June 21, 2002 12:38:06 AM

Antec Performance Plus 1080 Case w/ 430w PS = $119
SuperMicro P3TDDE (Intel 82559 Ethernet, Promise ATA/100 onboard RAID 0,1,0+1, two heatsinks) = $175
PIII-S-1266 (OEM) = $205
PIII-S-1266 (OEM) = $205
Western Digital WD1000JB 100GB 7200RPM 8MB Cache = $152
Maxtor 80.0GB 5400RPM = $81
ATI RADEON 7500 64MB DDR = $54
Pioneer 16x slot-load DVD = $42
512MB PC133 = $70
512MB PC133 = $70
Microsoft Windows XP Pro = $299
Generic PS/2 104-key Keyboard = $4
Microsoft PS/2 Intellimouse = $6
3.5inch Floppy = $4
--------------------
Total = $1486

I included XP pro because slvr_phoenix did, but both systems would be around ~$1200 for just hardware.

- JW
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June 21, 2002 6:01:03 AM

You aware jc your system is signifigantly slower than the other for the same amount of money right?

:wink: The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark :wink:
June 21, 2002 12:57:21 PM

Quote:
I included XP pro because slvr_phoenix did, but both systems would be around ~$1200 for just hardware.

I included XP Pro (and specifically from MS at that) because as a professional software engineer, I try not to <i>officially</i> suggest anything that can be construed as software piracy. ;) 

On a completely unrelated note... <i>were</i> someone to somehow mysteriously have an extra $299 somehow, one <i>could</i> swap out the 80GB Maxtor HD (using the WD1000JB in its place) and pick up a IWILL 64-bit PCI Ultra-160 SCSI card for $195 and a Seagate Cheetah X15 18GB 15000RPM Ultra-160 SCSI hard drive for $202, bringing the total system price to $1813. (Or, for no appearant reason $1514, if by pure random chance someone were to subtract $299 from that price.)

It should be noted though too that all prices are off of Pricewatch.com and don't include shipping and handling, because in a perfect world, one <i>could</i> just pick it all up from a local shop and in an ideal world, tax wouldn't be tacked on to the price limitations. Were it not a perfect world, then of course sacrifices would have to be made to trim the total cost down a little more.


Tech support said take a screen shot.
Putting it down with my .22 was the humane thing to do.
June 21, 2002 2:20:39 PM

Here is one of the systems I just built for work. It serves as a root server for an engineering domain. Handles a drawing set through Product Manager, runs an MRP interface solution and acts as a license server for Pro-E and AutoCAD. I also use Pro-E or AutoCAD up front (one at a time though).

AHANIX NOBLESSE - $49
ENERMAX POWER SP|431W(P4)EG465AX-VE WFCA RT - $114
FD 1.44MB|SONY Black - $15
ENERMAX ACCES FAN|8CMX25 ADJ 3/4PIN ENER RT - $28(4)
HD 120GB|WD 72R WD1200JB 8MB-CACHE - 196.00
MB i850|5P1A4R P4T-E W/A ASUS - $148
RAMBUS RIMM 256M|800MHZ SAMSUNG-S - $166(2)
P4 XEON 2.2GHz - $283
NVIDIA QUADRO4 750GXL(128MB) - $649

That comes to $1648 w/o tax or s&h.
Here is what I would suggest you alter. Dumb down the video card to a GF4 Ti4200 (w/64MB). That will save you $500. Now you are at roughly $1148. Grab a Turtle Beach Santa Cruz for $53. Current total is $1201. Axe the Noblesse (I go it because it looked impressive) and the Enermax PSU. Back down to $1038. Now grab the Antec case/PSU combo for $119 and go back up to $1157. Add 512MB of RIMMS gives 1GB of RAM and you are in heaven for $1323. The fact that I don't have SCSI has not bothered this workstation one bit. I am running W2KPro which we have a corp license for so it is free for me. If you blow out all those unnecessary services you will be way ahead of the game. You'll really need about 10-15 of those services depending on your network environment instead of the close to 50 the OS will try to hang on you.

HULK SMASH!!!
June 21, 2002 2:45:29 PM

After reading phoenix's config I wouldn't have a problem suggesting that to you although I would ditch the one 100GB HD and grab to 80GB HDs(IBM deskstars) and have the ability to stripe or mirror them. It would cost you like $10 more but you get a lot more to work with in that respect. Unless that board doesnt have a RAID controller which you could get for $25 or less depending on who makes it. The only other place you could cut corners is on the CPU/mobo setup. The dual athlon setup costs more then then the single Xeon but they outperform each other in different areas. I prefer the Tyan boards but MSI is always available for a better price. Using pricewatch will cut the $10 of the processors to throw towards you HDs (not to nitpick). If you don't need to buy the OS you can do some serious damage with that $300 (SCSI, RAID controller, gfx card or something like that). Please use a pro OS though. And once you have the configuration to your liking ghost it!!! It will save you a lot of heartache and pain.

HULK SMASH!!!
June 21, 2002 3:36:43 PM

Yes, I am aware that two PIII-S-1266 chips are generally regarded to be slower then two Athlon 1600+ (1400) MPs - but not that much slower (remember that in non-SSE2 applications dual PIII-S-1400s on a decent chipset will give dual P4 Xeon 2GHzs a good run for their money). However, in daily life I've heard many people complain about the "responsiveness" and "snappyness" of their Athlon MP based systems being not quite what they expected.

That dual Tualatin system is a relatively fast, mature setup that is often overlooked. To quote a recent Ace's Hardware article: "... the 2-way x86 server market was worth over $10Bn in 2001 and the significant majority were Pentium III systems". They are also not out of this world expensive. Although I would be surprised if xsrossiter went the Tualatin route, I wanted to make sure that he was aware of all the options.

Personally, if I was buying a new system today I would pick dual Tualatins on a Severworks HE-SL based board over dual Athlon MPs. It would look something like:

Antec Performance Plus 1080 Case w/ 430w PS = $119
SuperMicro P3TDE6-G (i82559 Ethernet, U160 SCSI, ATA-33, AGP 2x, two heatsinks) = $350
PIII-S-1266 (OEM) = $205
PIII-S-1266 (OEM) = $205
Seagate 72GB 10,000rpm (data) = $350
Seagate 36GB 10,000rpm (applications) = $175
ATI RADEON 7500 64MB DDR = $54
Pioneer 16x slot-load DVD = $42
512MB PC133 (registered ECC) = $150
512MB PC133 (registered ECC) = $150
Microsoft Windows XP Pro = $299
Generic PS/2 104-key Keyboard = $4
Microsoft PS/2 Intellimouse = $6
3.5inch Floppy = $4
--------------------
Total = $2100

SCSI is $$$.

I was in no way trying to promote software piracy, when I shop for a new system I usually set seperate hardware and software budgets. With a new system I usually purchase upgrades for the OS, my office suite, AutoCAD, Acrobat, etc. It's not umcommon for me to spend more on software then hardware.

Anyways, all in all I think either system would do what he wants to do. Both systems have their advantages and disadvantages, and in the end the question of value for money can only be decided by the purchaser because only he/she knows exactly what features he/she wants and how much of one thing they are willing to trade for another (speed/stability/noise/overclockability...).

Just for the record, currently I run a pair of PIII-800Es and they are fast enough for what I do. Task switching is silky smooth and lightning fast.

- JW

(Edit to change memory prices from $200 to $150)<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by JCLW on 06/22/02 04:02 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
June 21, 2002 5:02:20 PM

No disrespect JW, but for that price I could build a system that would beat yours to death. What PC133 Ram are you using that cost $200. I think it should be more like $80. And your P3 prices are right up there with Xeon P4s. Add $24 and you can get 2 1.8 Xeons. Also you can get a cheaper dual Tyan board w/o sacrificing performance. All for the same price. Join me on the Darkside, come to P4 Xeon.



HULK SMASH!!!
June 21, 2002 5:26:37 PM

I'm sat here wondering how many $$$'s you'd save using eBay.

Ok, I accept the "oooh it might not be working" arguement and the "you can't put a fixed price on it". But you need to use your good judgement.

I bought a Celeron 700 for around £40 - I'm pretty happy with it, and it's been sat overclocked at 875 ever since. :o )

I even liked a Plextor 16/10/40a I bought on behalf on somebody, for around £45! Fully working, and is flashed to 1.05 now! :o )

Oh well, enough praise for eBay or I'll get a finger-wagging for advertising!

All I'm saying is you can get pretty good bargains if you use your good judgement!

====
Basmic
June 21, 2002 5:58:09 PM

I'm not really big on used PC stuff b/c it carries no warranty. As for cheap prices, pricewatch is my refernce guide of choice. Ebay is great for other non-technical stuff. Especially TOYS!

HULK SMASH!!!
June 21, 2002 6:59:20 PM

Here's my entry into this. Should do what you're asking to do.

Case: CHIEFTEC Server Chasis (Workstation Tower) Model DX-01WD $44
Nice case, cheep, with good airflow.

PSU: Antec 380W Power Supply TRUE380 $62
Great PSU, and cheep.

Motherboard: Asus A7M266-D $207
It's got the thermal protection system that's now required for AMD boards, and it's a good brand.

Memory: 2 x 512 PC2100 ~$200
You can choose from several makers at the $100 per chip level, and you have room for another 512 later if you need it.

CPU: 2 x AMD ATHLON MP 1600+ 1.4 GHz Retail $282
Upgrade to 2 Athlon MP 1800+ 1.533 GHz Retail for an additional $40 (recomended)

HD: WD WESTERN DIGITAL "SPECIAL EDITION" 80GB 7200RPM EIDE HARD DRIVE MODEL # WD800JB $120
It's got an 8MB Cache, so it's much faster.

CDRW: Lite On 32x12x40 CDRW Model LTR-32123S $60
Great burner, great price.

Video Card: ATI OEM RADEON VE 7000 32MB WITH DVI/ TV $45
Decient performance, great image quality, and supports dual monitors. (Can be upgraded to a 7500 for an extra $16)

NIC: ARCHTEK SMARTLINK PCI ETHERNET CARD $5
Or you can get the 3Com 905C-TX for $30 more if you need a brand name.

Optional

SCSI HD: IBM SCSI 18GB 15,000RPM $210
For the Database

SCSI Card: ADAPTEC 1822100 19160 SCSI CONTROLLER CARD LVD ULTRA 160 $180
For database.


So, you're talking $1025 for the base system, no SCSI. $1111 With all the upgrades (NIC, CPU, and Video Card, no SCSI). Or $1511 with everything (Upgrades and SCSI).

You can get this all from newegg.com, which I know several THG regulars trust their site for good prices and service (I've liked them a lot myself).

It can be said that smoking is one of the leading cause of statistics.

ED: Oops, silly me, forgot the $12-15 Floppy drive.<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Bront on 06/21/02 02:02 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
June 21, 2002 7:38:55 PM

IDE Raid can be very unreliable at times, and for a database server, reliability is critical. It doesn't give you that much more room to play than having the database on it's own IDE channel and the OS and CD-rom on the other.

It can be said that smoking is one of the leading cause of statistics.
June 21, 2002 7:44:57 PM

Quote:
Anyways, all in all I think either system would do what he wants to do. Both systems have their advantages and disadvantages, and in the end the question of value for money can only be decided by the purchaser because only he/she knows exactly what features he/she wants and how much of one thing they are willing to trade for another (speed/stability/noise/overclockability...).


The mp system is cheaper, overclocks better, can be as quiet(with good hsf's) I still dont know why someone would pay more for a slower system.

:wink: The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark :wink:
June 21, 2002 7:55:44 PM

BTW, you can drop in an additional HD for an extra $120 and have Data and the OS on different drives.

Also, I used newegg as a single store reference. If you use Pricewatch, you'll have to get items from differrent stores, costing more shipping, so find one store and stick with it.

Don't go with E-bay if you're doing this for work. It's not worth the chance that you may have to explain to your boss why you're over budget on your computer because someone failed to send you the part after you payed for it.

It can be said that smoking is one of the leading cause of statistics.
June 21, 2002 8:37:56 PM

One thing that I think is being overlooked slightly is that because this is a system that will be running a database, RAM with ECC should probably be used. :)  Sure it's a little slower and more espensive, but it is also a little safer.


Tech support said take a screen shot.
Putting it down with my .22 was the humane thing to do.
June 22, 2002 8:50:30 PM

gal128:

First of all I'm very interested to know how you managed to run a "P4 XEON 2.2GHz" in a "MB i850|5P1A4R P4T-E W/A ASUS" motherboard (I take it that's an Asus P4T-E). The Xeon chips are socket 603 (603 pins). That motherboard (as all i850 chipset boards are) is socket 478 (478 pins). Unless math has changed since I was in school that puts you 125 pins short of a working computer. The i860, i7500, and Severworks GC chipsets are used on Xeon systems. I don't think Asus even makes any P4 Xeon boards.

And Tyan doesn't make a SeverWorks based dual Tualatin board with AGP. And not even intel comes close to matching SeverWorks in PIII chipset speed.

While the PC133 (registered ECC) is a bit cheaper then I first thought, it isn't that much cheaper (all SeverWorks chipsets require registered ECC memory). Pricewatch just came up with $150.

Back to the P4 Xeons... Maybe I'm missing something really obvious but I think the cost of the motherboards jacks the price right up out of the range we're talking. On the Tyan site... the Thunder i7500 has no AGP and costs $475, a SCSI version will run you around $550 (plus $120 for two Samsung 512MB PC2100 registered ECC modules) - the Thunder i860 (with AGP and SCSI) will run you at least $650 (plus $500 for two 512MB Samsung PC800 ECC sticks).

So if you want AGP, two Xeons, and a Tyan board:
$200 - P4 Xeon 1.8
$200 - P4 Xeon 1.8
$650 - Thunder i860
$500 - 1 GB PC800 ECC
-------
$1550

Add $500 for the SCSI drives and you're already at the price I gave and you don't have a case, power supply, video card, OS, CD drive, keyboard, mouse...

If you don't need AGP (or SCSI) you can work that down to ~$1000, around the same price as the Tualatin/ServerWorks board/CPUs/memory complete WITH AGP and SCSI. The SuperMicro P4DCE (i860 with AGP and no SCSI) costs $400 (board/CPUs/memory = $1300) so if SCSI didn't matter and AGP did that would probably be the best way to go.

I may be wrong but I believe all these boards also require special power supplies.

-------------------

Matisaro:

"The mp system is cheaper, ..." - So far the cheapest AMD cpu/board/memory bundle listed is the 2x 1600+, Asus A7M266-D, and 1GB DDR for a total of $680. The first system I listed was only $35 more. You can get 2x PIII-S-1266, a Tyan Tiger 230T, and 1GB PC133 for $675. Overall the price difference isn't really a big factor.

"...overclocks better,..." - As neither Supermicro nor Tyan have ever put overclocking features on their boards obviously the MPs will overclock better.

"...can be as quiet(with good hsf's)..." - With enough money you can make anything as quiet as you want. It just adds more to the system price.

"I still dont know why someone would pay more for a slower system." - The 512k and excelent data-prefetch on the Tualatins can make a large difference on database crunching (depending on the database). They may not be quite as fast when playing games, but I don't think these hardware suggestions are for gaming machines.

-----------------

I'm not saying he (or anyone else) should go out today and purchase a Tualatin system, I'm just trying to make the point that they are worth looking at.

- JW
June 22, 2002 8:58:03 PM

Quote:
"...can be as quiet(with good hsf's)..." - With enough money you can make anything as quiet as you want. It just adds more to the system price.


Actually the stock hsf which comes with 1600+'s is perfectly quiet.


Quote:
"I still dont know why someone would pay more for a slower system." - The 512k and excelent data-prefetch on the Tualatins can make a large difference on database crunching (depending on the database). They may not be quite as fast when playing games, but I don't think these hardware suggestions are for gaming machines.


There is no app in which the 1233 t's will outperform the 1600+'s, the cache benifit is easily negated by ddr, Your reccomendation while fine is in fact slower and more expensive than the 1600+'s, which is why I asked what would be the point.


Noise is not a factor, both chips are quiet with stock hsf's
Stability is not a factor, both chips are equally stable.
Price is not really a factor, as you said the 1600+'s are slightly cheaper than the tually system.
Performance is an issue, and the 1600+'s will beat the tuallys signifigantly in every application.

Quote:
I'm not saying he (or anyone else) should go out today and purchase a Tualatin system, I'm just trying to make the point that they are worth looking at.


And I am just saying that really the tually is not worth looking at, there is no real reason to spend more for slower performance.

:wink: The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark :wink:
June 22, 2002 10:08:34 PM
June 22, 2002 10:31:37 PM

YOur first link didnt work, your second link showed your tually getting beat by a 1.2ghz athlon mp.

Your third test showed the tually@1.13 neck and neck with the 1.2ghz athlon mp, however you are comparing a 1.23ghz tually with a 1.4ghz athlon mp, extrapolating those results gives the athlon the win on every test.(p3 gains 100mhz, the amd gains 200mhz)

From your third links summation.

"The tests of dual-processor systems showed that neither AMD platform, nor Intel platform managed to get any advantage: powerful FPU of Athlon processors is opposed by twice as large L2 cache of Pentium III processors. In some tests AMD platform manages to get a little bit ahead of the rival, in other tests Intel's platform performs slightly faster t6han AMD one. That is why we can say that both platforms are equally fast provided the processor frequencies are close. "

In your suggestion the clock is NOT equally close, you have provided links to assist my case, thankyou.

In your fourth link all of the tests clearly show the amd winning except for lightwave b and a second test which the reviewer comments there may be an issue with sse detection.


JC, you are trying to make the case that a 1.26ghz tually is faster than a 1.4ghz athlon mp, this is not the case, as proven by your own links.

The tuallys cost more, and are slower, again I reiterate, there is no reason to consider tually systems for smp processing.

:wink: The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark :wink:
June 22, 2002 10:45:24 PM

That first server appears to be down.

Not once have I said the Tualatins were faster.

The MPs are the faster system.
I don't dispute that.
My point was that the Tualatins are nearly as fast.

Despite what many people say, speed isn't everything.

I'm done.

- JW
June 22, 2002 11:06:10 PM

Quote:
The MPs are the faster system.
I don't dispute that.
My point was that the Tualatins are nearly as fast.

Despite what many people say, speed isn't everything.


So, why pay more for a slower system.

The tuallys are not more quiet, they are not more stable, they are more expensive and are slower.

Why are the tuallys still in the running at all, thats my entire point.


Speed isnt everything, but the mp's have more of everything than the tuallys for less price.

:wink: The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark :wink:
June 23, 2002 8:12:32 AM

Quote:
Speed isnt everything, but the mp's have more of everything than the tuallys for less price.

lol, damn right on that. i don't think any dual tually system could match the heat that my 1800's kick out. i got dual amds cause in the winter i hate when my feet get cold.

[insert philosophical statement here]
June 23, 2002 10:01:12 AM

Quote:
lol, damn right on that. i don't think any dual tually system could match the heat that my 1800's kick out. i got dual amds cause in the winter i hate when my feet get cold.


And a foot warmer too! I mean come on, you can crunch numbers faster and warm your appt, who would choose a tually over that?

:wink: The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark :wink:
June 23, 2002 11:44:38 AM

I keep seeing references to AMD systems producing too much heat. Is heat really an issue with a well designed system?

I have an itch to build a SMP but I am having trouble justifying it.

"Just the facts ma'am"
June 23, 2002 12:07:11 PM

Quote:
I keep seeing references to AMD systems producing too much heat. Is heat really an issue with a well designed system?

I have an itch to build a SMP but I am having trouble justifying it.


Heat is not an issue, and if you use the stock hsf which comes with the system and you dont overclock you will have no issues.

The stock hsfs are quiet and there is no need to spend additional money on extra cooling if you dont overclock.

Furthermore on the heat issue, .18 micron amds are COOLER than .18 micron pentium 4's, the heat issue is fud which is widespread, the fact is if you set up your system properly you will not have to worry about heat period.

:wink: The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark :wink:
June 23, 2002 8:21:56 PM

Quote:
I still dont know why someone would pay more for a slower system.

Stability is a good reason.
I've never played with a dual Tualatin or Athlon MP system, but my guess is that the Intel system would probably be more stable. I could be wrong, but thats just how it seems to me. Now everyone doesn't need stability, but I've come to find it quite nice. Rebooting once a week or every two weeks, while having the system *feel* like I just turned it on is great. I've never had that good of stability and performance with amd (just performance) but maybe the cause of that is Via chipsets I've had :tongue:

Gosh I'm such a nerd sometimes, but then again arn't we all. :smile:
June 23, 2002 11:43:38 PM

Quote:
Stability is a good reason.
I've never played with a dual Tualatin or Athlon MP system, but my guess is that the Intel system would probably be more stable.


Your guess would be wrong, as stated many times above, both systems are equally stable, the fud surrounding amd's unstability is from old via chipsets, those chipsets are no longer around and most any platform you purchase today will be as stable as its intel counterparts.

Furthermore on mp systems there is only pure amd chipsets with wonderful stability and performance.

So why your felling and experience is valid for ancient via chipsets, it is not valid for this comparison.

SO we are back to the point in which I ask, why would someone pay more money for signifigantly less performance?

:wink: The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark :wink:
!