UA bloodlines and paragons

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Does anyone use either the racial paragon classes or the bloodlines from
Unearthed Arcana in their campaign?

I looked particularly at the Human paragon, which gives 10 class skills to
improve at each of the 3 levels, plus "adaptive learning" which is like a free
Versatile feat (makes 1 skill a class skill for all later classes). This
seemed reasonably nice, but didn't seem to be worth a class level to me (at
least not for the fighter classes). Some of the other paragons get +1 BAB per
level, or 2 good saves, which seemed better than the Human to me.

On the other hand bloodlines looked interesting. Once again Major bloodline,
requiring a "bloodline" level before ECL 3, seemed like a hard sell (losing a
level at that point seems like a lot), but the minor and medium bloodlines
looked like you could pay for them at points where it mattered less.
--
"Yo' ideas need to be thinked befo' they are say'd" - Ian Lamb, age 3.5
http://www.cs.queensu.ca/~dalamb/ qucis->cs to reply (it's a long story...)

 

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I think Human paragon is pretty good, even for fighters. Fighters
aren't known for their skill points. Human paragon gives good skill
points. Plus, fighters would like a high Spot skill. The paragon
allows them to maximize it and keep it as a class skill if desired.
Maybe some other skill is to a player's fancy. As a nice bonus, at 3rd
level they get a +2 to an ability score of the player's choice.
Fighters may want it in Strength for the damage potential, Constitution
for the hit points, or Dexterity for the defense. It is a matter of
taste of whether it's worth losing a BAB, average 3 hit points, and one
or two feats depending on when taken, but even if I accept it as less
optimal, I don't think it is too high a cost.

Gerald Katz

 

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David Alex Lamb <dalamb@qucis.queensu.ca> wrote:
> Does anyone use either the racial paragon classes or the bloodlines
> from Unearthed Arcana in their campaign?
>
> I looked particularly at the Human paragon, which gives 10 class
> skills to improve at each of the 3 levels, plus "adaptive learning"
> which is like a free Versatile feat (makes 1 skill a class skill for
> all later classes). This seemed reasonably nice, but didn't seem to
> be worth a class level to me (at least not for the fighter classes).
> Some of the other paragons get +1 BAB per level, or 2 good saves,
> which seemed better than the Human to me.
>
> On the other hand bloodlines looked interesting. Once again Major
> bloodline, requiring a "bloodline" level before ECL 3, seemed like a
> hard sell (losing a level at that point seems like a lot), but the
> minor and medium bloodlines looked like you could pay for them at
> points where it mattered less.

Nik and I discussed them, and ISTR Bradd came to the same conclusion we
did: Pay *before* gaining the abilities. You don't have to pay the full
LA at the beginning, but before you start gaining the 'next level' of
goodies you have to pay that LA.

So, for a minor bloodly that doesn't get its first ability until fourth
level (IIRC), you can take three levels of whatever, spend a level to
pay off the LA, then take the fifth level and start gaining blood
abilities. And so on for the others.


Keith
--
Keith Davies "Trying to sway him from his current kook-
keith.davies@kjdavies.org rant with facts is like trying to create
keith.davies@gmail.com a vacuum in a room by pushing the air
http://www.kjdavies.org/ out with your hands." -- Matt Frisch

 

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David Alex Lamb wrote:
> Does anyone use either the racial paragon classes or the bloodlines from
> Unearthed Arcana in their campaign?
>
> I looked particularly at the Human paragon, which gives 10 class skills to
> improve at each of the 3 levels, plus "adaptive learning" which is like a free
> Versatile feat (makes 1 skill a class skill for all later classes). This
> seemed reasonably nice, but didn't seem to be worth a class level to me (at
> least not for the fighter classes). Some of the other paragons get +1 BAB per
> level, or 2 good saves, which seemed better than the Human to me.
>

Paragons are the only thing I'm allowing from UA. No bites though. I
might allow some of the variant specialist wizards, but no wizards in
my current campain, and the people who usually play wizards aren't
interested in specialists.

- Justisaur

 

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Justisaur wrote:
>
> David Alex Lamb wrote:
>
>>Does anyone use either the racial paragon classes or the bloodlines from
>>Unearthed Arcana in their campaign?
>>
>>I looked particularly at the Human paragon, which gives 10 class skills to
>>improve at each of the 3 levels, plus "adaptive learning" which is like a free
>>Versatile feat (makes 1 skill a class skill for all later classes). This
>>seemed reasonably nice, but didn't seem to be worth a class level to me (at
>>least not for the fighter classes). Some of the other paragons get +1 BAB per
>>level, or 2 good saves, which seemed better than the Human to me.
>>
>
>
> Paragons are the only thing I'm allowing from UA. No bites though. I
> might allow some of the variant specialist wizards, but no wizards in
> my current campain, and the people who usually play wizards aren't
> interested in specialists.

I don't really think most of the stuff in UA is over the top. Being
able to buy off LA, for example, just makes playing races with LA a
competitive option compared to standard races. I wouldn't bother
playing a bloodline because you have to give up too much in order to do
so. And I still maintain that Paragon classes are munchkin bait.

- Ron ^*^

 

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In article <T0jye.148873$sy6.33466@lakeread04>,
Werebat <ranpoirier@cox.net> wrote:
>Justisaur wrote:
>> Paragons are the only thing I'm allowing from UA. No bites though. I
>> might allow some of the variant specialist wizards, but no wizards in
>> my current campain, and the people who usually play wizards aren't
>> interested in specialists.
>
>I don't really think most of the stuff in UA is over the top. Being
>able to buy off LA, for example, just makes playing races with LA a
>competitive option compared to standard races. I wouldn't bother
>playing a bloodline because you have to give up too much in order to do
>so.

I was thinking of asking Laszlo about Celestial Bloodline for my paladin, but
the Major bloodline requires a level of Bloodline before 3rd, ie at 1st or
2nd. As with LA buyout, it looked too expensive for an ECL 4 character. I
expected not to mind the hits at higher levels; it's based on feeling rather
than any real calculation of value.

> And I still maintain that Paragon classes are munchkin bait.

I guess that means you disagree with my contention that it's hard to afford at
low levels?
--
"Yo' ideas need to be thinked befo' they are say'd" - Ian Lamb, age 3.5
http://www.cs.queensu.ca/~dalamb/ qucis->cs to reply (it's a long story...)

 

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David Alex Lamb wrote:
> In article <T0jye.148873$sy6.33466@lakeread04>,
> Werebat <ranpoirier@cox.net> wrote:
>
>>Justisaur wrote:
>>
>>>Paragons are the only thing I'm allowing from UA. No bites though. I
>>>might allow some of the variant specialist wizards, but no wizards in
>>>my current campain, and the people who usually play wizards aren't
>>>interested in specialists.
>>
>>I don't really think most of the stuff in UA is over the top. Being
>>able to buy off LA, for example, just makes playing races with LA a
>>competitive option compared to standard races. I wouldn't bother
>>playing a bloodline because you have to give up too much in order to do
>>so.
>
>
> I was thinking of asking Laszlo about Celestial Bloodline for my paladin, but
> the Major bloodline requires a level of Bloodline before 3rd, ie at 1st or
> 2nd. As with LA buyout, it looked too expensive for an ECL 4 character. I
> expected not to mind the hits at higher levels; it's based on feeling rather
> than any real calculation of value.
>
>
>>And I still maintain that Paragon classes are munchkin bait.
>
>
> I guess that means you disagree with my contention that it's hard to afford at
> low levels?

I use the term "munchkin bait" to mean an option that looks very
attractive from a powergaming standpoint, but doesn't actually play out
that way. Perhaps "munchkin trap" is more appropriate.

Kind of like the 3.0 Drunken Master.

You'll get powergamers of a group selecting these options and then being
dissatisfied with them because they don't actually play out the way they
look like they'll play out on paper. Human Paragon in particular LOOKS
like it offers a bonanza of special abilities at no cost, but in fact
there are very real costs that just aren't obvious at first.

It's not that I'd NEVER take it -- it's just that it's not nearly as
great as it looks at first. If I played a human character, I would
USUALLY not take it.

- Ron ^*^

 

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Werebat wrote:

> I use the term "munchkin bait" to mean an option that looks very
> attractive from a powergaming standpoint, but doesn't actually play out
> that way. Perhaps "munchkin trap" is more appropriate.
>
> Kind of like the 3.0 Drunken Master.
>
> You'll get powergamers of a group selecting these options and then being
> dissatisfied with them because they don't actually play out the way they
> look like they'll play out on paper. Human Paragon in particular LOOKS
> like it offers a bonanza of special abilities at no cost, but in fact
> there are very real costs that just aren't obvious at first.
>
> It's not that I'd NEVER take it -- it's just that it's not nearly as
> great as it looks at first. If I played a human character, I would
> USUALLY not take it.
>
> - Ron ^*^
>

This clarifies one of your replys to a post of mine before. I
understand your point better now.

I've made a character CL3 and kept getting a sor1/pal2 for an
interesting character build with draconic heritage, dragon breath, and
war wizard from ultimate feats with str 10 dex 10 con 11 int 18 wis 13
cha 18. I thought I might look into sor1 then two human paragon levels
before taking paladin at cl4, but the war wizard feat preqeqs a bap+2.

So, your point about the paragon being munchkin bait is a strong one.
It made me pause to consider if that was what I was doing when human
paragon attracted me. I wanted access to the variety of skills to
colour the character's background further, and the bonus spellcasting
would have been nice with an extra feat to spice him up. The bab just
would not work itself out, and my idea to build a character that gets
attack bonuses based on Int would not really get going until cl6.

 

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Werebat wrote:
> I don't really think most of the stuff in UA is over the top. Being
> able to buy off LA, for example, just makes playing races with LA a
> competitive option compared to standard races.

Depends on the reason for the LA. Some racial advantages remain
powerful at higher ECLs, some not so much.

Laszlo

 

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Jasin Zujovic wrote:
> In article <1120552524.439237.73730@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu says...
>
> > > I don't really think most of the stuff in UA is over the top. Being
> > > able to buy off LA, for example, just makes playing races with LA a
> > > competitive option compared to standard races.
> >
> > Depends on the reason for the LA. Some racial advantages remain
> > powerful at higher ECLs, some not so much.
>
> Is there any LA race without racial HD that you think is worth it, as a
> package?

Yes... but this is a really difficult question, because even the LA
races that are worth it have to be built around to really be
competitive.

With that said, proper Pixie builds are devastating. Ghosts are also
incredibly powerful, if played correctly (technically Ghost is a
template, not a race, I know).

Some of the more "down-to-earth", lower LA builds are fine, too. I
think Half-Giants and Aasimar can both be worth their +1 LA (note: I've
never seen an Aasimar played, so this is just conjecture). The Phrenic
Creature template also seems like it might be worth it; I'm thinking
maybe a Paladin/Wilder/War Mind.

Laszlo

 

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freakybaby wrote:
> laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu wrote in news:1120568199.597316.282130
> @o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com:
>
>
> > Some of the more "down-to-earth", lower LA builds are fine, too. I
> > think Half-Giants and Aasimar can both be worth their +1 LA (note: I've
> > never seen an Aasimar played, so this is just conjecture). The Phrenic
> > Creature template also seems like it might be worth it; I'm thinking
> > maybe a Paladin/Wilder/War Mind.
>
> Where can this hrenic creature template be found?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/phrenicCreature.htm

Laszlo

 

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laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu wrote in news:1120568199.597316.282130
@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com:


> Some of the more "down-to-earth", lower LA builds are fine, too. I
> think Half-Giants and Aasimar can both be worth their +1 LA (note: I've
> never seen an Aasimar played, so this is just conjecture). The Phrenic
> Creature template also seems like it might be worth it; I'm thinking
> maybe a Paladin/Wilder/War Mind.

Where can this hrenic creature template be found?

 

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In article <1120552524.439237.73730@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu says...

> > I don't really think most of the stuff in UA is over the top. Being
> > able to buy off LA, for example, just makes playing races with LA a
> > competitive option compared to standard races.
>
> Depends on the reason for the LA. Some racial advantages remain
> powerful at higher ECLs, some not so much.

Is there any LA race without racial HD that you think is worth it, as a
package?


--
Jasin Zujovic
jzujovic@inet.hr

 

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In article <8mlye.3682$Ud.416302@news20.bellglobal.com>,
shawn_roske@sympatico.ca says...

> I've made a character CL3 and kept getting a sor1/pal2 for an
> interesting character build with draconic heritage, dragon breath, and
> war wizard from ultimate feats with str 10 dex 10 con 11 int 18 wis 13
> cha 18.

OK, that's a rather weird spread for a Sor/Pal...

> my idea to build a character that gets
> attack bonuses based on Int would not really get going until cl6.

Ooh. Tell me more about this!

Does this War Wizard feat have something to do with it?


--
Jasin Zujovic
jzujovic@inet.hr

 

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Jasin Zujovic wrote:
> In article <8mlye.3682$Ud.416302@news20.bellglobal.com>,
> shawn_roske@sympatico.ca says...
>
>
>>I've made a character CL3 and kept getting a sor1/pal2 for an
>>interesting character build with draconic heritage, dragon breath, and
>>war wizard from ultimate feats with str 10 dex 10 con 11 int 18 wis 13
>>cha 18.
> OK, that's a rather weird spread for a Sor/Pal...

Yeah. Different can be fun. A fire breathing paladin strikes my fancy,
or, actually, I'm leaning towards electricity at this point.

>>my idea to build a character that gets
>>attack bonuses based on Int would not really get going until cl6.
> Ooh. Tell me more about this!
> Does this War Wizard feat have something to do with it?

War Wizard is in the Ultimate Feats book.

Prereq: BAB +2, martial weapon prof, arcane spellcaster 1+

benefit: for one melee or ranged attack per round (may be touch attack)
use INT in place of DEX or STR for to hit bonus. Damage as normal, STR
mod if appropriate.

Do you think this is too powerful a feat?

 

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laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu wrote in
news:1120588936.641078.298350@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:


> http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/phrenicCreature.htm

Beauty, thanks.

 

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In article <4Pvye.3896$Ud.522313@news20.bellglobal.com>,
shawn_roske@sympatico.ca says...

> >>my idea to build a character that gets
> >>attack bonuses based on Int would not really get going until cl6.
> >
> > Ooh. Tell me more about this!
> > Does this War Wizard feat have something to do with it?
>
> War Wizard is in the Ultimate Feats book.

Is this some sort of a netbook or a commercial book?

> Prereq: BAB +2, martial weapon prof, arcane spellcaster 1+

Martial Weapon Proficiency (any) or Martial Weapon Proficiency (all)?

> benefit: for one melee or ranged attack per round (may be touch attack)
> use INT in place of DEX or STR for to hit bonus. Damage as normal, STR
> mod if appropriate.
>
> Do you think this is too powerful a feat?

Not really. I have a thing for warrior-mage types, so actually I could
stand it being a little better. If I was creating a similar feat, I'd
probably beef it up just a bit, but limit it to melee attacks.

What I don't like is that it screws sorcerers, and non-arcanists. For
some time now, I've been looking for a warrior class that would be based
around Int. Duelist and swashbuckler are close, but not quite: they just
derive some additional benefits from being smart, they aren't based on
being smart as their main schtick.

Off the top of my head, what about:

CUNNING ATTACK [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Int 13, Combat Expertise, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: Once per round, you can add your Int modifier to one melee
attack (normal or touch).
Special: A fighter may select Cunning Attack as one of his fighter bonus
feats.


--
Jasin Zujovic
jzujovic@inet.hr

 

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Jasin Zujovic wrote:
> In article <4Pvye.3896$Ud.522313@news20.bellglobal.com>,
> shawn_roske@sympatico.ca says...
>
>
>>>>my idea to build a character that gets
>>>>attack bonuses based on Int would not really get going until cl6.
>>>
>>>Ooh. Tell me more about this!
>>>Does this War Wizard feat have something to do with it?
>>
>>War Wizard is in the Ultimate Feats book.
>
>
> Is this some sort of a netbook or a commercial book?
>

"Ultimate Feats" Alejandro Melchor, Mongoose Publishing, 2002

Its a D20 & OGL Licensed book. I think there is a series of them.

>
>>Prereq: BAB +2, martial weapon prof, arcane spellcaster 1+
>
>
> Martial Weapon Proficiency (any) or Martial Weapon Proficiency (all)?
>
Actually, its not clear in the book. I could make a case, either way,
(any) would probably be good enough, but Warlocks it might over power
Warlocks and kind.

>
>>benefit: for one melee or ranged attack per round (may be touch attack)
>>use INT in place of DEX or STR for to hit bonus. Damage as normal, STR
>>mod if appropriate.
>>
>>Do you think this is too powerful a feat?
>
>
> Not really. I have a thing for warrior-mage types, so actually I could
> stand it being a little better. If I was creating a similar feat, I'd
> probably beef it up just a bit, but limit it to melee attacks.

The factor of applying the feat to both melee and range gives it quite a
kick. Improved War Wizard gives damage bonuses. I like the feat, but I
think a different choice of name was called for.



> What I don't like is that it screws sorcerers, and non-arcanists. For
> some time now, I've been looking for a warrior class that would be based
> around Int. Duelist and swashbuckler are close, but not quite: they just
> derive some additional benefits from being smart, they aren't based on
> being smart as their main schtick.
>
> Off the top of my head, what about:
>
> CUNNING ATTACK [GENERAL]
> Prerequisites: Int 13, Combat Expertise, base attack bonus +1.
> Benefit: Once per round, you can add your Int modifier to one melee
> attack (normal or touch).
> Special: A fighter may select Cunning Attack as one of his fighter bonus
> feats.

I like it.

 

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Shawn Roske <shawn_roske@sympatico.ca> wrote:
> Jasin Zujovic wrote:
>> In article <4Pvye.3896$Ud.522313@news20.bellglobal.com>,
>> shawn_roske@sympatico.ca says...
>>
>>>War Wizard is in the Ultimate Feats book.
>>
>> Is this some sort of a netbook or a commercial book?
>
> "Ultimate Feats" Alejandro Melchor, Mongoose Publishing, 2002
>
> Its a D20 & OGL Licensed book. I think there is a series of them.

Be warned, it's not very particular about the feats included. You
should still check them for balance in your game.


Keith
--
Keith Davies "Trying to sway him from his current kook-
keith.davies@kjdavies.org rant with facts is like trying to create
keith.davies@gmail.com a vacuum in a room by pushing the air
http://www.kjdavies.org/ out with your hands." -- Matt Frisch

 

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Keith Davies wrote:

> Shawn Roske <shawn_roske@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
>>Jasin Zujovic wrote:
>>
>>>In article <4Pvye.3896$Ud.522313@news20.bellglobal.com>,
>>>shawn_roske@sympatico.ca says...
>>>
>>>
>>>>War Wizard is in the Ultimate Feats book.
>>>
>>>Is this some sort of a netbook or a commercial book?
>>
>>"Ultimate Feats" Alejandro Melchor, Mongoose Publishing, 2002
>>
>>Its a D20 & OGL Licensed book. I think there is a series of them.
>
>
> Be warned, it's not very particular about the feats included. You
> should still check them for balance in your game.

I own the book, and IMO *most* of the feats are actually UNDERpowered.
There are a small handful that are overpowered, but they are the
exception. There are just enough feats that are right on target that
the book is worth buying, IMO.

- Ron ^*^

 

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Werebat wrote:
> Keith Davies wrote:
>
> >
> > ? Wiz4/Human3 is BAB +4... *better* than Wiz7. Assuming both have poor
> > Fort and Reflex the character has +2 base for each, regardless of
> > whether he's Wiz4/Human3 or Wiz7. His Will would actually be *better*
> > (+7 rather than +6), assuming Human gives good Will (if it gives poor
> > Fort and Reflex, must give good Will).
> >
> > So, he's down to 'lost a spellcaster level'.
>
> And 3 levels of familiar advancement.
>
> There was a bout of "paragon madness" in our gaming groups right after
> the book came out, and all but one of the players ended up either
> scrapping their characters or deciding not to take paragon levels in the
> end.
>
> Munchkin. Trap.
>
> - Ron ^*^

Let's talk about my favorite class, the cleric . He will be hurt in
Fortitude save and Turning Undead. Turning Undead can be salvaged with
Divine Feats. You're not turning undead anyway, might as well get good
use out of the ability. Divine Feats also give clerics incentive to
go into Prestige Classes that do not provide Turn Undead. The lost
spell level is paid for with the skill points, a class skill of choice,
and +2 to an ability score, only IN being the suboptimal choice. ST is
good for the combative clerics. DX is good for defense, initiative,
and mini-boost to reflex save. CO is good for the hit points and
offset Fortitude hit. WI is good for the will save mini-boost, spell
DC, and bonus spells. CH is good for one more use of Divine Feat,
perhaps the next sub-optimal after IN. The BAB hit can be timed so
that you go into Human Paragon when your BAB would not have increased
anyway continuing cleric. This does delay the BAB hit for three
levels, but cleric-like Prestige Classes also do that, so it's not so
bad. Besides, there's always Divine Power or a nice Quicken Divine
Favor/Divine Power combo if it's really a bother.

Reflex might also get hit. However, a cleric's reflex save is already
poor. An extra +1 to reflex save by staying cleric of course wouldn't
hurt, but the cleric is still failing reflex saves more than making
them anyway. If I value the BAB hit as a half disadvantage, I'll value
the reflex hit as another half to get a full point disadvantage to go
along with the spell progression hit.

The kicker is the Fortitude hit, because clerics have good Fortitude.
The character could pay a Feat for Great Fortitude or he can lump it.
Taking the +2 to CO is highly attractive and let normal ability score
increases take care of WI.

Gerald Katz

 

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Werebat <ranpoirier@cox.net> wrote:
> Keith Davies wrote:
>> Shawn Roske <shawn_roske@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>>>
>>>"Ultimate Feats" Alejandro Melchor, Mongoose Publishing, 2002
>>>
>>>Its a D20 & OGL Licensed book. I think there is a series of them.
>>
>> Be warned, it's not very particular about the feats included. You
>> should still check them for balance in your game.
>
> I own the book, and IMO *most* of the feats are actually UNDERpowered.
> There are a small handful that are overpowered, but they are the
> exception. There are just enough feats that are right on target that
> the book is worth buying, IMO.

I've got a copy too.

I'm not saying they're overpowered, just that balance is suspect -- it's
not really safe to assume that everything in it is fine the way it is.

Most things probably are fine, but the assumption should not be made.


Keith
--
Keith Davies "Trying to sway him from his current kook-
keith.davies@kjdavies.org rant with facts is like trying to create
keith.davies@gmail.com a vacuum in a room by pushing the air
http://www.kjdavies.org/ out with your hands." -- Matt Frisch