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Big weapons

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Anonymous
July 5, 2005 8:49:55 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

I have a small question about a big problem.

Our group of Gnomes and Halflings are fighting giants right now and we keep
getting magical weapons as part of our treasure. The problem is that they
are huge or large, which are almost unusable for us.

So, I was wondering if there is a spell or any other ideas of making these
weapons permanently smaller. I was wondering if I being a Gnome Illusionist
could research a spell to do the trick too. What level would it be?
Specifications? Can a new spell even be made?

Please help.

Zimra

More about : big weapons

Anonymous
July 6, 2005 12:53:25 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Zimrakoko <zim5288@yahoo.com> wrote:
>I have a small question about a big problem.
>
>Our group of Gnomes and Halflings are fighting giants right now and we keep
>getting magical weapons as part of our treasure. The problem is that they
>are huge or large, which are almost unusable for us.
>
>So, I was wondering if there is a spell or any other ideas of making these
>weapons permanently smaller.

Theoretically, you could transfer the magic to another item. There was
a 2E (I think) high-level Cleric spell that did that. The Item Creation
rules don't bend very far at all.

I'd peg it around 6th or 7th level, and it would cost some amount of XP
to cast (maybe (100 + value-of-the-magic / 100) XP). It'd probably
take between an hour and a day to cast.

The other choice is to trade them in, maybe getting 60-75% of book
value for them.

Donald
Anonymous
July 6, 2005 2:57:13 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

In article <daes05$gmt$1@agate.berkeley.edu>,
tsang@soda.csua.berkeley.edu says...

> The other choice is to trade them in, maybe getting 60-75% of book
> value for them.

Why 60-75% instead of the usuall 50%? If anything, regular merchants
will have less use for a Huge +2 greatsword than a Medium one.


--
Jasin Zujovic
jzujovic@inet.hr
Related resources
Can't find your answer ? Ask !
Anonymous
July 6, 2005 2:57:14 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Jasin Zujovic <jzujovic@inet.hr> wrote:
>> The other choice is to trade them in, maybe getting 60-75% of book
>> value for them.
>
>Why 60-75% instead of the usuall 50%? If anything, regular merchants
>will have less use for a Huge +2 greatsword than a Medium one.

Because it's a trade, and not a sale. And it doesn't take too large
a city to find a Centaur with Monkey Grip to use that Huge +2
greatsword...

Donald

PS Is Monkey Grip a reference to the Monkey King's really heavy
quarterstaff? [where's Hong when you need him?]
Anonymous
July 6, 2005 2:57:15 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Donald Tsang wrote:
> Jasin Zujovic <jzujovic@inet.hr> wrote:
>
>>>The other choice is to trade them in, maybe getting 60-75% of book
>>>value for them.
>>
>>Why 60-75% instead of the usuall 50%? If anything, regular merchants
>>will have less use for a Huge +2 greatsword than a Medium one.
>
>
> Because it's a trade, and not a sale. And it doesn't take too large
> a city to find a Centaur with Monkey Grip to use that Huge +2
> greatsword...
>

Tell that to the pc with profession:merchant.
Anonymous
July 6, 2005 4:19:24 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Shawn Roske <shawn_roske@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>Donald Tsang wrote:
>> Jasin Zujovic <jzujovic@inet.hr> wrote:
>>>>The other choice is to trade them in, maybe getting 60-75% of book
>>>>value for them.
>>>
>>>Why 60-75% instead of the usuall 50%? If anything, regular merchants
>>>will have less use for a Huge +2 greatsword than a Medium one.
>>
>> Because it's a trade, and not a sale. And it doesn't take too large
>> a city to find a Centaur with Monkey Grip to use that Huge +2
>> greatsword...
>
>Tell that to the pc with profession:merchant.

NPC? If you don't have good CHA-based skills, you deserve whatever
you get. But in the campaigns I've been in (and run), "trading up"
a lower- "plus" weapon for a higher-"plus" one usually gets you
close to 100% of book value for the lower one, even if the two
weapons aren't the same type.

Donald
Anonymous
July 6, 2005 4:19:25 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Donald Tsang wrote:
> Shawn Roske <shawn_roske@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
>>Donald Tsang wrote:
>>
>>>Jasin Zujovic <jzujovic@inet.hr> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>The other choice is to trade them in, maybe getting 60-75% of book
>>>>>value for them.
>>>>
>>>>Why 60-75% instead of the usuall 50%? If anything, regular merchants
>>>>will have less use for a Huge +2 greatsword than a Medium one.
>>>
>>>Because it's a trade, and not a sale. And it doesn't take too large
>>>a city to find a Centaur with Monkey Grip to use that Huge +2
>>>greatsword...
>>
>>Tell that to the pc with profession:merchant.
>
>
> NPC? If you don't have good CHA-based skills, you deserve whatever
> you get. But in the campaigns I've been in (and run), "trading up"
> a lower- "plus" weapon for a higher-"plus" one usually gets you
> close to 100% of book value for the lower one, even if the two
> weapons aren't the same type.
>
> Donald

Ah, but the life of a merchant, trying to resell that fancy huge thing
pawned to him by that fast-talking halfling transient is not an easy
one. Think of the heckling his fellow merchants will give him, for
weeks upon weeks that ridiculous sized thing hangs in his shop. The
kids come to gawk at it; the neighbours shake their heads at such a
foolish acquisition. You are right, though, when he does finally find a
buyer he'll have bragging rights for years to come.
Anonymous
July 6, 2005 4:29:09 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Donald Tsang" <tsang@soda.csua.berkeley.edu> wrote in message
news:D af82c$oue$1@agate.berkeley.edu...
> Shawn Roske <shawn_roske@sympatico.ca> wrote:
> >Tell that to the pc with profession:merchant.
>
> NPC? If you don't have good CHA-based skills, you deserve whatever
> you get. But in the campaigns I've been in (and run), "trading up"
> a lower- "plus" weapon for a higher-"plus" one usually gets you
> close to 100% of book value for the lower one, even if the two
> weapons aren't the same type.

And you say your DM doesn't fudge. ;) 

That's your DM being nice to you so you can actually afford to do it. For a
closer reality, try thinking in terms of used car salesmen. They aren't
going to give you book value for a tradein, they have to sell it at a
markup, and that is factored in to the price they offer you for your
tradein. Sure, they might give you a decent value for tradein, but if
there's no profit to be made from the transaction, in realistic terms, they
wouldn't do it.

There are several Blue Book values, one for private sale, and one for
tradein value, and one for retail sale(www.kbb.com). The tradein value is
lower than the private sale amount, to allow for the used car guy to get a
markup on resale. The "retail price" is over both of those, and represents
a consumer being bent over the table. ;) 

In our game, magic has a base unmodified value for any sale or tradein at a
store of 50% of its listed value, modified by the charisma of the magic item
owner and the reaction of the magic store "clerk"(typically a high level
wizard) as appropriate. In no instance does one get more than 60% of value
for their magic item, and that assumes a tradein for a more powerful magic
item on which the person making the purchase doesn't haggle much over the
price of the magic item(meaning they get screwed on the price of the better
item, so the magic store owner doesn't mind giving more on the tradein).

--
Jeff Goslin - MCSD - www.goslin.info
It's not a god complex when you're always right
Anonymous
July 6, 2005 4:40:46 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Zimrakoko" <zim5288@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ZjCye.53047$iU.20426@lakeread05...
> I have a small question about a big problem.
> Our group of Gnomes and Halflings are fighting giants right now and we
keep
> getting magical weapons as part of our treasure. The problem is that they
> are huge or large, which are almost unusable for us.
> So, I was wondering if there is a spell or any other ideas of making these
> weapons permanently smaller.

This is a neat idea.

-Michael
Anonymous
July 6, 2005 10:13:54 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

How about allowing weapon re-sizing - or indeed the transfer of
enchantments from one weapon to another - as a free (or cheap, no XP
required, and a %age of the normal GP requirement) use of the "craft
Magic Weapons and Armour" feat.
If transferring enchantments I'd possibly say that the weapons have to
be of the same "type" (ie sword to sword) though I'm not sure what
justifications I could put in place for this.

Blath
Anonymous
July 6, 2005 10:50:22 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Hang on though...
If you sell the item for the RAW 50% doesn't that cover almost all the
GP cost of a new build anyway (aside from a new MW weapon of
appropriate size?).

I guess in this case what you'd do would depend on what you're short of
(money, time or XP).

Or whether 1/2 the base price in GP is worth more or less than 1/50th
of the base price in XP (the XP you'd "save" by treating it as a
repair) for said item.

Blath
Anonymous
July 6, 2005 12:26:07 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Zimrakoko <zim5288@yahoo.com> wrote:
>So, I was wondering if there is a spell or any other ideas of making these
>weapons permanently smaller. I was wondering if I being a Gnome Illusionist
>could research a spell to do the trick too. What level would it be?
>Specifications? Can a new spell even be made?

Well, IMC I'd be willing to tweak the rules to allow the standard "fixing
a broken magic item costs half the XP/money/time of a new build" rule to
include reforging swords (etc.) to a different size.

--
--DcB
Anonymous
July 6, 2005 12:37:42 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Michael Scott Brown wrote:
> "Zimrakoko" <zim5288@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:ZjCye.53047$iU.20426@lakeread05...
>> I have a small question about a big problem.
>> Our group of Gnomes and Halflings are fighting giants right now and
>> we keep getting magical weapons as part of our treasure. The problem
>> is that they are huge or large, which are almost unusable for us.
>> So, I was wondering if there is a spell or any other ideas of making
>> these weapons permanently smaller.
>
> This is a neat idea.

Sounds good as an Artificer infusion.

Resize Magic Weapons and Armour
Transmutation
Level: Artificer 3, Sor/Wiz 4
Components: V, S, M (see text)
Casting time: 10 minutes
Range: Touch
Target: Unattended armour, shield or weapon touched
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving throw: Will negates (harmless, object)
Spell resistance: Yes (harmless, object)

This spell allows the caster to alter the size of one magic weapon, armour
or shield, or as many as fifty magical arrows, bolts or bullets, by one size
category. The caster chooses whether to enlarge or reduce the item at the
time of casting. Non-magical weapons, armour or shields, or magical items
other than weapons, armour or shields, cannot be resized in this manner. An
item affected by this spell is permanently resized. Dispel Magic will not
undo the change, but it can be returned to its original size by recasting
Resize Magic Weapons and Armour, or by a Break Enchantment spell.
Material component: Soot from a forge, and Obsidian gems equal in value to
the difference in market price between the item at its original and final
sizes, if the final size is more expensive than the original (i.e. if a
Medium weapon is resized to a Large weapon). If casting this spell does not
alter the item's market price, the gems are not necessary.


I don't know if the restrictions on items other than magic weapons and
armour are necessary - probably it would be fine to allow the spell to be
used on non-magical weapons and armour, but when it comes to other items,
I'm nervous that this means of potentially unlimited 'packing down' of items
could be used to get around encumbrance restrictions of particularly large
and awkward items without affecting their magical properties.

--
Mark.
Anonymous
July 6, 2005 2:47:03 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

aramil_silvermane@hotmail.com wrote:

Keep context, damnit.

>Hang on though...
>If you sell the item for the RAW 50% doesn't that cover almost all the
>GP cost of a new build anyway (aside from a new MW weapon of
>appropriate size?).

That assumes that you can sell it. The RAW simply say that, in general,
the sale price is half the market price. There's nothing saying that
a PC will *always* be able to sell an item -- particularly in the time
frame that the PC desires.

Then there's the math. Assume that a given item has market value X.
To sell the item and buy an equivalent item of the appropriate size
costs X/2 gp. To reforge the item costs 7X/20 gp (going by 1xp = 5gp).
Fifteen percent is respectable savings, particularly when we're dealing
with moderate to large market values (e.g., on a +3 sword you save
2,700gp -- somewhere between five and ten percent of the expected wealth
of the fighter types when they're about due a +3 weapon).

--
--DcB
Anonymous
July 6, 2005 4:03:31 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Jeff Goslin <autockr@comcast.net> wrote:
>"Donald Tsang" <tsang@soda.csua.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>> If you don't have good CHA-based skills, you deserve whatever
>> you get. But in the campaigns I've been in (and run), "trading up"
>> a lower- "plus" weapon for a higher-"plus" one usually gets you
>> close to 100% of book value for the lower one, even if the two
>> weapons aren't the same type.
>
>And you say your DM doesn't fudge. ;) 

I've never said that. I've fudged lots.


>That's your DM being nice to you so you can actually afford to do it. For a
>closer reality, try thinking in terms of used car salesmen.

Have you ever traded Magic cards? At least several years ago, when I
was actively playing Magic, people were much more willing to trade
them that buy them, even if you only wanted about half of what the
retailers charged. And you could trade with retailers at something
close to "book value" on them, as long as you were trading "across"
(like-valued cards) or "down" (quicker-moving cards for less-saleable
ones; inventory is always an issue.

This is why four +1 swords (value: 2300+ apiece) might get you a
+2 sword (value: 8300+), if the merchant can move the +1 swords
more than four times as quickly; besides, for 6000 gp, he can upgrade
one of them to +2 in under a week!)


Out of curiosity, have you read (carefully) through the 3.5E rules yet?
You can peruse most of them for free, you know... spending several days
doing that might be more productive (and helpful toward your DMing skills)
than posting here.



>Sure, they might give you a decent value for tradein, but if there's
>no profit to be made from the transaction, in realistic terms, they
>wouldn't do it.

That depends on the balance of supply and demand on the items you
have and the items you want, doesn't it? It'd probably be easier
to find magical "small shortswords" than magical "huge greatswords";
as long as you think you have a market for the latter, their "value"
might actually be higher, especially since the "shrinkage" rate
on halfling-sized weapons must be huge... :) 


>In our game, magic has a base unmodified value for any sale or tradein at a
>store of 50% of its listed value, modified by the charisma of the magic item
>owner and the reaction of the magic store "clerk"(typically a high level
>wizard) as appropriate.

By the book, 3.5E has a 50% sale value. Since it has become so
much easier to craft your own magic items (thus greatly expanding
supply), and by the reasoning above, I stand by my earlier comments.


Donald
Anonymous
July 6, 2005 10:31:10 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Zimrakoko" <zim5288@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:ZjCye.53047$iU.20426@lakeread05:

> Our group of Gnomes and Halflings are fighting giants right now
> and we keep getting magical weapons as part of our treasure. The
> problem is that they are huge or large, which are almost
> unusable for us.

This is one way of keeping the power level down. Kudos to your GM.
You might consider mooting an adventure to find a good giant who
might be interested in buying them, or keep them as gifts - or
evidence - for potentates to curry favour.

Suppose your party is looking for information from a noble. How is
your party going to even get an audience? You announce yourselves as
giantkillers and the chancellor will laugh; announce yourselves
bearing a giant-sized sword or two and your title becomes believable.
Anonymous
July 6, 2005 10:43:43 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Zimrakoko" <zim5288@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ZjCye.53047$iU.20426@lakeread05...
> I have a small question about a big problem.
>
> Our group of Gnomes and Halflings are fighting giants right now and we
keep
> getting magical weapons as part of our treasure. The problem is that they
> are huge or large, which are almost unusable for us.
>
> So, I was wondering if there is a spell or any other ideas of making these
> weapons permanently smaller. I was wondering if I being a Gnome
Illusionist
> could research a spell to do the trick too. What level would it be?
> Specifications? Can a new spell even be made?

There is that quasi-real material illusionists sometimes deal with in their
spells, but I'm not sure if that makes items truly permanent or not. If
you're thinking this should be truly permanent, you'll need Alteration magic
to make it permanently resized. Polymorph Any Object (8th) comes to mind.
There is some risk losing the magical abilities of the weapon you wish to
resize by using PAO, but it will resize it for you. Ask your DM.

--
In an old 1E campaign I played in, there was this half-dwarf, half-orc
character. They called him a dorc. -Solomoriah
What this country needs are more unemployed politicians. -Edward Langley,
Artist (1928 - 1995)
Anonymous
July 7, 2005 12:02:25 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Donald Tsang" <tsang@soda.csua.berkeley.edu> wrote in message
news:D aghaj$1h0o$1@agate.berkeley.edu...
> Jeff Goslin <autockr@comcast.net> wrote:
> >And you say your DM doesn't fudge. ;) 
>
> I've never said that. I've fudged lots.

I'm just bustin yer chops... ;) 

> This is why four +1 swords (value: 2300+ apiece) might get you a
> +2 sword (value: 8300+), if the merchant can move the +1 swords
> more than four times as quickly; besides, for 6000 gp, he can upgrade
> one of them to +2 in under a week!)

He still has to make a profit, something he can't do if he takes book value
for all of the +1 swords. Sure, a guy might be inclined to give a better
price for a tradeup, simply because it's easier to sell the lower value one,
but I wouldn't personally give such a HUGE break to the seller. To be
honest, I can't even recall a time where the 60% barrier was broken in our
campaign's magic shop. Maybe it's just me wanting to keep the PC's poor,
mind you, something that I actively strive for. If someone wants to upgrade
their +1 sword to a +2, they better have at least 2 other +1 weapons that
they can trade in along with their +1 sword to get the +2 sword. For the
most part, my tradein ratio for one greater plus is 3 to 1, they can trade
in 3 +1 things to get a +2 thing.

> Out of curiosity, have you read (carefully) through the 3.5E rules yet?

In short, I have not read them end to end carefully. I've scanned to get
the gist, but that's about it.

> You can peruse most of them for free, you know... spending several days
> doing that might be more productive (and helpful toward your DMing skills)
> than posting here.

To be honest, it would be about as much use to me as learning how a whole
new system works, because the difference between the two (2E, that I play,
and 3E that you suggest I learn) is like night and day. I might as well
learn (relearn, actually) how GURPS works for all the good it would do me to
really learn 3E.

I have the downloadable SRD, and peruse it from time to time for
methodologies and quirks, but to me, that's just a set of rules, and is no
inherently better or worse than any other set of rules, when talking about a
game like this. The important part of the game, to us, will always be the
character interaction(PC and NPC alike), and the plot line. The mechanics
are simply a model of how things work, and if our current model is
"working"(better or worse than others, but it's working, nonetheless), there
is no need to fundamentally change it.

The reason we stick to 2E is simple: the mechanics we are currently using
are something that everyone knows and is comfortable with. If we have a
mechanic that isn't working, we quickly whip up something to fix it. But
honestly, the main thrust of our gaming is not embroiled in the mechanics.
We use the mechanics to resolve certain less important aspects of our game,
and the ones we have work, but truth be told, we could use ANY set of
mechanics to get it done. 2E is simply comfortable for us to use.

The problem most people have with my particular DMing style has little to do
with my knowledge or lack thereof when it comes to the rules(which I freely
admit to being rather loose with), but rather with my belief in my own
judgement, and the fact that my judgement differs rather dramatically from
what most people would apply to their own games. I believe that what I am
doing for my game is what is best for the game, and other people have
vehemently disagreed with my positions, there's little more to it than that.
They are free to disagree, of course, but they aren't in the moment, and
they aren't playing at my table with my group of players, whom I've known
for over a decade apiece. I am confident in my understanding of my friends,
and in my application of situational decisiveness that I employ, even though
some people here disagree with my assessments more often than not.

> That depends on the balance of supply and demand on the items you
> have and the items you want, doesn't it? It'd probably be easier
> to find magical "small shortswords" than magical "huge greatswords";
> as long as you think you have a market for the latter, their "value"
> might actually be higher, especially since the "shrinkage" rate
> on halfling-sized weapons must be huge... :) 

Well, in our game, for the sake of ease of economics, magic prices are fixed
and stable(with a few minor exceptions). If you want a shortsword +1, it
costs X, whether you are on one side of the continent or the other. If you
want a ring of protection +1, it's Y, either north or south, east or west.
The assumption is that you are buying magic in a "populated area" with
normal sized creatures in that area.

On the other hand, if you happened to be in the halfling homeland, and went
to a halfling magic shop, you would find all sorts of really small,
ultimately useless magic items(like 1/4 sized potions that had no effect on
anyone larger than a halfling, etc). If the PC's tried to buy in a place
like that, they would find that most of the stuff just wouldn't work for
them. As such, they don't even bother looking in those types of stores.
The prices remain the same, however.

> By the book, 3.5E has a 50% sale value. Since it has become so
> much easier to craft your own magic items (thus greatly expanding
> supply), and by the reasoning above, I stand by my earlier comments.

Well, our game is magic light, which naturally increases the prices.
Standard price for a +1 weapon is 10,000gp, potion of extra healing is 1,000
gp. I don't know how much they are for such things in 3E is, but I assume
the price is much lower. If I'm doing it right, I just added up the cost of
a short sword +1 as laid out in the SRD, and it would appear to be 2,310
gp(magic cost+base weapon cost). That's not a high enough price for our
game. PC's are supposed to cherish their magic items, and the easiest way
to do that is to avoid giving them much magic until like 5th level or so.
On a side note, it's almost impossible, in our game, to simply purchase +2
or higher weapons/armor. They are EXTREMELY rare and treasured, and
generally, people have to adventure for them, to get them as rewards.

--
Jeff Goslin - MCSD - www.goslin.info
It's not a god complex when you're always right
Anonymous
July 7, 2005 4:54:09 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On resizing weapons, in Complete Adventure, there is a trait that can be assigned to it
that resizes the weapon, it adds a +1 to the price factor.
--
"... respect, all good works are not done by only good folk. For within these Trials, we
shall do what needs to be done."
--till next time, Jameson Stalanthas Yu -x- <<poetry.dolphins-cove.com>>
Anonymous
July 9, 2005 2:00:47 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

~consul wrote:
> On resizing weapons, in Complete Adventure, there is a trait that can be
> assigned to it that resizes the weapon, it adds a +1 to the price factor.

Well spotted.

There's also Monkey Grip lying around, which should let the Gnomes
in question use Large size One Handed weapons in two hands at -4, Large
size Light weapons in one hand at -4, or Huge size Light weapons in two
hands at -6.
Assuming a favorable interpretation (the feat only works one size
up by the book), and players willing to spend a feat that might not
always remain quite so handy as time passes. Plus, you've got to have a
slot available.

Even without it they can use Large size Light weapons in two hands
at -4.

--
tussock

Aspie at work, sorry in advance.
Anonymous
July 11, 2005 5:09:53 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Jeff Goslin wrote:
> On the other hand, if you happened to be in the halfling homeland, and went
> to a halfling magic shop, you would find all sorts of really small,
> ultimately useless magic items(like 1/4 sized potions that had no effect on
> anyone larger than a halfling, etc). If the PC's tried to buy in a place
> like that, they would find that most of the stuff just wouldn't work for
> them. As such, they don't even bother looking in those types of stores.
> The prices remain the same, however.

I know that everything is set for essentially 'human' sized, but I don't recall in any
particular edition that has such limits on what was enough of a serving size for a magic
potion to work, at least based on size. I can see racially specific magical items, like
one needed the blood of halflings running in their veins, but not that say a sprite or
halfling could get twice the amount of a potion effect from a similarly sized human serving.

--
"... respect, all good works are not done by only good folk. For within these Trials, we
shall do what needs to be done."
--till next time, Jameson Stalanthas Yu -x- <<poetry.dolphins-cove.com>>
!