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AthlonXP Temps Comparison

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July 13, 2002 3:49:30 PM

Just looking at my AthlonXP 1900+ idling, it's at 51 C.

That's in a Coolermaster ATC201 Aluminium case, (4 case fans) and a copper cooler with a 7000rpm fan on it. I've still got instability problems, and i want to finally make sure heat isn't to blame.


so i'm wondering what temp other people's AthlonXP's run at. Use Motherboard Monitor 5 and see what you get, after leaving your system on for 30 minutes.

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July 13, 2002 5:34:25 PM

My XP 2100+ runs in a fairly warm room at 46 degrees idle and 55 degrees at load. When the room temp is around 22 or 21 degrees it idles at around 40 and load is about 46.

However, from a previous post on this board (How Hot is Too Hot?) I have learned that those are pretty low temps. Take a look at that post.

It's possible that the instability is from a non-cooled northbridge or an ailing hard drive. There's a million things it could be.

For reference, I'm using the cooler that came in the retail box with my XP 2100+, though I did scrape off the stock thermal interface so I could use Arctic Silver III. I have three 80mm case fans (all on the lowest setting because for some reason increased air flow doesn't really lower any temps in my case for some reason) and an Enermax 350 watt whisper power supply (with sleep support! wooooo!) that has an intake fan and an exhaust fan.

"Always two there are..."
July 13, 2002 5:37:15 PM

That sounds kinda hot, but I don't think that is what's causing your instability. Heat related instabilities generally occur around the 60C mark. With a 7000 RPM fan you should be running much cooler. What kind of thermal compound are you using?

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July 13, 2002 8:17:28 PM

I'm using UNIK silicone heat transfer compound....

i guess my mobo is at fault here....i'm going to try and put a friends thunderbird 900Mhz CPU in there, and see if that is stable, if it's not then i know my Palomino CPU is OK

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July 15, 2002 1:02:10 AM

I have an Athlon XP 1800+ with a cheap heatsink..its 50ºC idle and 60º full load, but I have no stability problems.
July 15, 2002 1:12:08 AM

yeah the problem for me is deciding what exactly is wrong with my system, it could be mobo, CPU, or harddisk, i've no idea, i'm going to give this CPU to a friend for a day to see if it can crash his system :) 

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July 15, 2002 1:12:52 AM

i have to say this is a pretty pointless exercise im sorry to say.

there are just too many variables. what your temps are apply to <b>you only</b>
heres a quick check of all the variables i can think of
1. room temp
2. case temp
3. case airflow
4. case design/metal
5. brand & model of cooler
6. fan & speed
7. dust layer depth
8. thermal interface material & thickness
9. temp reading source, undersocket diode or XP internal sensor
10. error in diode/internal sensor
11. software temp recording errors
12. mobo brand & bias
13. hsf/fan flaws
14. differeing OS conditions
etcetcetc

put simply
<b>If it doesn't crash then its OK</b>

Proud owner of the <b>Beige Beast</b> :lol: 
July 15, 2002 1:18:06 AM

yeah, but it does crash, so it's not OK....

i've done all types of driver installs/uninstalls, to no avail, swapped RAM sticks, changed CPU coolers, changed to a AL case with 4 case fans, changed to an enermax 430W PSU, changed graphics cards,

it has to be the mobo, HD, or CPU at fault now,
unless the way i've installed the HSF/thermal compound is so wrong but temps are never over 54 C now so perhaps heat is not what's at fault.

i'm tempted to replace the mobo and CPU and go for a Northwood B solution, but knowing my luck then it'll be the HD at fault...

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July 15, 2002 1:29:40 AM

if you think its the hard drive, run some diagnostic program provided by te manufacturer.

if you think its the CPU, run a cpu only intensive application like TOAST

to check the memory, try running MEMTEST86

P.S. how long are your IDE cables in that pic? some of them look awefuly long.


Proud owner of the <b>Beige Beast</b> :lol: 
July 15, 2002 1:43:02 AM

Having a problem you can pinpoint to 3-4 different peripherals is one thing. But it seems like everything in your case is affected. I think it is your power supply. It could also be your processor but if something went wrong with that your computer wouldn't crash, it would simply freeze up.

As for your cooling compound, please, please, please: go buy Arctic Silver III now. My fan runs at 1500 RPM and my temps have never gone beyond 54C and that was when ambient temperature was 80F. You'll be happy. Just don't apply too thick of a layer.

This little cathode light of mine, I'm gonna let it shine!
July 15, 2002 2:25:46 AM

You mentioned XP internal senor as a reading, how does one get the info from the Athlon's internal senor? I count on my mobo, I didn't know their was an internal senor such as that on the XP.
July 15, 2002 3:19:10 AM

ok the computer doesn't crash...it DOES lock up, if you're playing a game the last....0.2 seconds of sound start playing over like a stuck record, and even the num lock light can't get turned on and off, and picture on the monitor just freezes.

I've recently changed power supplies from a cheap 300W PSU to a 430W Enermax and this DID NOT solve the problem


I'll get some AS3, but i'll imagine it's the CPU or mobo...but some AS3 will be useful anyways :) 


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July 15, 2002 3:21:28 AM

The IDE cables are/were 18" long, they've changed since the picture was taken...now they're still 18" long but they're the rounded type.

(also in the picture is the Live! Drive ribbon cable)

i;ll run all the tests and get back to you.

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July 15, 2002 5:20:55 AM

18" cables... goood. just checking.
to me they looked longer than normal thats all.
you can get cables 24" or even 30" long, but they can cauze data corruption.

more points:
if you can run a CPU stress testing program ok then i would be leaning towards the graphics card locking up or the northbridge.

Proud owner of the <b>Beige Beast</b> :lol: 
July 15, 2002 5:44:02 AM

Quote:
more points:
if you can run a CPU stress testing program ok then i would be leaning towards the graphics card locking up or the northbridge.


right, done some tests.

TOAST: Interesting this one....within 1 second of me double-clicking on the toast.exe icon i have a system lock up.

MEMTEST-86: no errors reported.



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July 15, 2002 6:19:04 AM

whoa.... thats telling. hmmm.
never seen toast make a cpu keel over quite so quickly... usually it takes at least a minute for the cpu to overheat. temps are around mid fifty's arnt they? hmmmm

*thinks*
your running motherboard monitor arnt you?
... what are your voltages like... particularly the 5v line?

cauz with the speed at which your system crashed im inclined to think that the PSU aint supplying sufficient juice.

Proud owner of the <b>Beige Beast</b> :lol: 
July 15, 2002 8:05:38 AM

may be motherboard power distribution problem
July 15, 2002 10:08:00 AM

Quote:
whoa.... thats telling. hmmm.
never seen toast make a cpu keel over quite so quickly... usually it takes at least a minute for the cpu to overheat. temps are around mid fifty's arnt they? hmmmm

temps were 54C at the time of running toast.

Quote:
*thinks*
your running motherboard monitor arnt you?
... what are your voltages like... particularly the 5v line?

cauz with the speed at which your system crashed im inclined to think that the PSU aint supplying sufficient juice.


the 5V line has been at 4.85V-4.88V since i got the enermax it can still occaisionally drop to 4.69V, but not often.

it can't still be the PSU can it?!!!! not after i spent all that money on an enermax!?

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July 15, 2002 10:23:03 AM

hmmm

u said 4.69v... thats not very good, infact thats pretty bad. how often does it do that?
and more importantly, does it do that at the time of freeze?

even though its an enermax doesnt rule out the chance of a faulty product every now and again.


Proud owner of the <b>Beige Beast</b> :lol: 
July 15, 2002 10:42:46 AM

knowing my "luck" it'll be the one in a million faulty Enermax,



oh and additionally it goes to 4.69V very rarely, and i don't know if that's near crashes, the log files the mobo monitor spits out after crashes certainly don't contain fluctuating voltages<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by FiL on 07/15/02 11:51 AM.</EM></FONT></P>
July 15, 2002 11:07:01 AM

hmmm ok.

and this 54C... have you ever run ABOVE it for any length of time?



Proud owner of the <b>Beige Beast</b> :lol: 
July 15, 2002 11:17:29 AM

i've recorded it hit 59C ONCE, but apart from that i've never seen it over 55C ever.

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July 15, 2002 2:00:17 PM

FiL,

What motherboard is that? I saw the VIA chipset...

<font color=purple>I'd like to thank my Audigy, VIA KT333 & ATI for teaching me the dangers of drivers</font color=purple>
July 15, 2002 2:03:57 PM

It's a Soltek 75-DRV2 that uses the VIA KT266A chipset.

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July 15, 2002 2:19:14 PM

Quote:
temps were 54C at the time of running toast.

According to what? I wouldn't trust the temperature readings on an Athlon system farther than I could throw a Via motherboard, because they're not based on an actual core temperature diode reading like Intel temps are. Your actual core temp could be 20° higher!! Your CPU is probably close to 70°C when Toast crashes.

You mentioned you have lots of case fans. That could be your problem. All you need is one big case fan for exhaust, in addition to the PSU fan. That's it. No intake fans are necessary. A powerful enough exhaust fan doesn't need "help" from an intake fan, it generates enough vacuum on its own. More than likely your case fans are fighting each other and stagnating the air around the CPU.

Ritesh
July 15, 2002 2:28:20 PM

ok then you'll have to educate me here, if there not reading the diode in the Athlon, then where is motherboard monitor reading the temperatures from?

case temperature remained constant 26C throughout this...this was measured by a thermister lying in the case.

there are 2x 80mm intake fans at the front.

1x exhaust fan at the roof of the case

1x exhaust fan at rear of case, near cpu

and the PSU has two fans.

I don't think any of the fans are fighting each other as they are all blowing roughly the same direction! front the bottom front, the the top rear of the case

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July 15, 2002 4:02:05 PM

Quote:
Your actual core temp could be 20° higher!! Your CPU is probably close to 70°C when Toast crashes.

i think that might just be a slight exageration.

Quote:
All you need is one big case fan for exhaust, in addition to the PSU fan. That's it. No intake fans are necessary. A powerful enough exhaust fan doesn't need "help" from an intake fan, it generates enough vacuum on its own.

yes.. just get one gigantic case fan. just forget about efficiency and tape off any holes or airleaks in the front and sides of your case. then get an even bigger, faster fan. if that doesnt keep it cool, your fan sucks.

same thing with a car. why replace your dirty airfilter when you can swap the motor out for something bigger?
July 15, 2002 7:03:08 PM

Quote:
ok then you'll have to educate me here, if there not reading the diode in the Athlon, then where is motherboard monitor reading the temperatures from?


If you're running an XP, the CPU has an on chip thermal diode, but motherboards do not read off this when reporting temps - even those that have thermal protection. I have an Asus A7V333 that does read the on die temperature, but only uses it for fail-safe shutdowns. From my understanding there's a thermistor built into the motherboard (in the middle of the socket) just underneath the CPU. I also understand that Asus inflates temperature readings so that the temperatures it reports are actually higher than what the thermistor reads.
On my setup:
Asus A7V333 and 2200+
Ambient ~ 85 deg. F
CPU idle ~ 55-59
load ~ 65 (it's hit 75 last week sometime when it was 95 in my room....scary)
July 15, 2002 7:19:19 PM

Quote:
same thing with a car.

Thanks for making my point. A car typically has *one* fan for cooling the radiator, not fifteen. Yes it's a big one. Same concept.

If one fan is creating enough vacuum through the case, adding more fans doesn't make the ventilation *any* more efficient, regardless of how many holes or air leaks you have. The key is to get rid of those air leaks. Then the case becomes a tunnel with the big exhaust fan pulling air smoothly from the front port all the way through.

Ritesh
July 15, 2002 7:26:55 PM

Quote:
ok then you'll have to educate me here, if there not reading the diode in the Athlon, then where is motherboard monitor reading the temperatures from?

From the socket, which can be 20+°C off the true core reading (no exaggeration) when running an app like Toast where the CPU temp is rising rapidly.

Quote:
there are 2x 80mm intake fans at the front.
1x exhaust fan at the roof of the case
1x exhaust fan at rear of case, near cpu
and the PSU has two fans.

Egads, how do you live with the noise? Try disabling the two intake fans and the exhaust fan at the roof of the case. *Equally important*, ensure that your case is as airtight as visually possible. Eliminate all visible holes, open drive bays, etc. Except for the front intake port, obviously! If this doesn't work, perhaps it's time to invest in a new heatsink and quality case.

Ritesh

<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by ritesh_laud on 07/15/02 02:31 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
July 15, 2002 9:50:04 PM

Man, nice setup. Caseflow certainly won't be your problem with 2 intake and 2 outtake (Don't count PS fans, as they really only cool the PS).

I actually had the same problem, just to a lesser extent. When playing RTCW I would occasionally lock up, and hear the last .2 seconds OVER & OVER. What OS do you use? I'm using XP and while the program locks up, after a minute or two XP smells the error, bails me out, and sends a report.

Not sure if you overclock or not, but my problem lessened when I reduced the overclock on my AIW 7500 and kept my PCI Bus under 34. It's your toast results that really puzzle me.

While I'm no expert, with toast dying that quick I would reseat the HSF. Also, let us know what happens with that other CPU. Good Luck.



<font color=purple>Pentiums are for wusses who are afraid of instability</font color=purple>
July 16, 2002 1:59:34 AM

i've got pretty much the best case money can buy now int hat i've got the CoolerMaster ATC-201...it's very airtight.

for everyone's info, i just re-seated the HSF and applied some more heat transfer compound...after removing the old mess.

now it's idling at 49 C

and TOAST ran for 10 seconds! before I stopped it, i'm going to see how long it will take to crash after i've written this post :) 

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July 16, 2002 5:03:23 AM

Quote:
Thanks for making my point. A car typically has *one* fan for cooling the radiator, not fifteen. Yes it's a big one. Same concept.


i was referring to the exhaust system on a car, which is a smilar concept. the radiator fan is not the same concept at all, as it is typically an open system. a fan, blowing on a radiator. thats not an exhaust system.

i know this is getting off topic, but i feel the need to explain a bit. the motor in a car works as a vacumm, its sucks air in for the exhaust system. yes, the bigger the motor the better. however efficiency can be increased by opening up the intake to allow more air flow.

huge gains in power(efficiency) can be seen when adding forced induction. a turbo charger or super charger. you basically put a fan on the front of the intake and it forces air in to the the system. its all actually a bit more complex than that but thats some of the basics.

so in relation to a pc box. yes, its better to have no air leaks and a vacuum created. however, efficency can be increased by putting a fan in the front of the box to force(yes, like forced induction on a car)air in to that vacuum.

but hey, dont take my word for it. experiment on your own. thats what i did.
July 16, 2002 1:05:09 PM

Quote:
huge gains in power(efficiency) can be seen when adding forced induction. a turbo charger or super charger. you basically put a fan on the front of the intake and it forces air in to the the system. its all actually a bit more complex than that but thats some of the basics.

Forced induction only works because a motor works on combustion. The more air in the cylinder, the more fuel can be packed in with it, and hence more power. Also, you're confusing power and efficiency. The efficiency (miles per gallon) of the motor typically does *not* improve with the addition of the turbo. Turbos make gas mileage worse due mainly to the lag they induce on the low end of the powerband. This causes the driver to have to rev higher to get to the boost. Revving higher is not good for gas mileage.

Quote:
however, efficency can be increased by putting a fan in the front of the box to force(yes, like forced induction on a car)air in to that vacuum.

Of course an intake fan can help. It draws fresh cool air into the case. But it's unnecessary if the exhaust fan is drawing it sufficiently. This is *not* like an engine, because the case is open on both sides. In an engine, the intake and exhaust systems are completely separated by the engine itself (see below for an explanation). In a case, putting a fan on one side or the other doesn't really matter for volumetric flow of air through the case, because the fan flows a fixed volume no matter where it's located. However, the main difference is that an exhaust fan creates greater velocity towards the back of the case, where the CPU typically is. And we need velocity over that heatsink for optimal heat transfer.

The engine analogy doesn't work at all due to an engine being more of an air pump, not a tunnel like a computer case. An engine uses valves in the cylinder to prevent the fuel-air from moving out at the same time it's moving in. So the mixture becomes trapped in the cylinder for the power stroke. If it were open on both sides all the time like a computer case, the engine wouldn't run at all.

Ritesh


<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by ritesh_laud on 07/16/02 08:08 AM.</EM></FONT></P>
July 16, 2002 4:10:20 PM

Awesome news man. If it ran for 10 secs before YOU stopped it, you fixed it. 49C idle is a great temp but out of curiousity what is your load temp?

<font color=purple>Pentiums are for wusses who are afraid of instability</font color=purple>
July 16, 2002 6:18:21 PM

ok this is my last response to this because we are now discussing autobmobiles instead of computers. but i was talking about the exhaust system as a whole, not just the engine.

Quote:
Turbos make gas mileage worse due mainly to the lag they induce on the low end of the powerband. This causes the driver to have to rev higher to get to the boost. Revving higher is not good for gas mileage.

turbo lag doesnt decrease the horsepower or torque that you originally started with before the modification. the gas mileage doesnt get worse because you have added a turbo charger to it. the gas mileage gets worse because the driver cant keep his foot off the pedal. increasing your horse power will increase the efficiency. torque moves mass. the more you have the less effort is required to move it. this is a really, really broad topic though and i will not go in to deep detail with it here.

btw, the entire exhaust system(generally).. it has pipes.. a tunnel if you will. kind of like pc system. much better than the radiator analogy in my opinion... unless you wanted to talk about water cooling :) 
July 16, 2002 7:44:04 PM

Quote:
ok this is my last response to this because we are now discussing autobmobiles instead of computers

But don't you want to graduate from your Journeyman status?

Quote:
increasing your horse power will increase the efficiency.

Lol!

Ritesh
July 16, 2002 11:04:52 PM

well i also let it just run and run and TOAST ran for 34 seconds before it locked up, so is that a good or bad result?
it's better than the 0.1 seconds i was getting :) 

i've no idea what my full load temps are due to the processor locking up too much, but the highest i've seen it get in this new case is 53 C


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July 16, 2002 11:35:59 PM

Quote:
well i also let it just run and run and TOAST ran for 34 seconds before it locked up, so is that a good or bad result?

*Any* lockup when running Toast means you have a cooling problem, but Toast is so intense that 34 seconds means you can run most other apps without overheating. :)  Anyway, the ideal is to be able to run Toast 24/7 in a 90°F room without locking up, but I seriously doubt any high speed Athlon is capable of that without a monster HSF. Not to mention the noticeable toll on the electric bill.

Ritesh
July 17, 2002 12:23:30 AM

right ok then, to improve my cooling i can't do much more with 60mm fans on the HSF....my 7000 rpm 60x60 fan produces 37cfm.

my mobo can't fit 80x80 HSF's...no room

but if i fitted a 60 --> 80mm fan adapter on my HSF and fitted a high output 80mm fan would i notice any extra cooling? the adapter would place the fan further away from the heatsink, so i'm wondering if it's worth it...

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July 17, 2002 7:25:56 AM

have you tried using prime95? i do not know if it is as brutal as toast but it will put your processor under heavy load and you should be able to monitor your temps.

if you are still concerned, maybe you should give some thought to a water cooled setup?
July 17, 2002 10:58:24 AM

dude, you're temps are impossible to understand as you keep apparantly switching between F and C :) 

what does 85 F mean in Celcius

(Farenheit means nothing to me, sorry)

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July 17, 2002 12:31:32 PM

I think its 27 C.
XP 1700 runs at 43 idle and 58 C after muchas LANing.

Slowdown? What slowdown? Didn't you know this was a slideshow?
July 17, 2002 1:15:30 PM

Quote:
the adapter would place the fan further away from the heatsink, so i'm wondering if it's worth it...

Won't make a significant difference at that distance (the pressure drop is nil), so it still pulls the same volume of air. Just make sure that the adapter is airtight so that all air is coming from the heatsink fins. It should help but it'll be even louder if you go 7000 RPM...

BTW, what's your room temp?

Ritesh
July 17, 2002 1:32:22 PM

Fil
I just read this thread and one thing keeps bugging me.

Are You shure the HSF is correctly seated.The fast lockup under Toast could mean a sudden temperature rise in the CPU and the heat not getting out through the HSF fast enough.The MBM might miss it alltogether.

Just a thougth.

Or then it be Northbridge related(VIA (hehheh))
July 17, 2002 1:37:36 PM

Quote:
Just make sure that the adapter is airtight so that all air is coming from the heatsink fins. It should help but it'll be even louder if you go 7000 RPM...


yeah that's why i'd like to just get a 3000/4000 rpm 80mm fan, because it would push similar amounts of air than the old 60mm Delta, but it would be loads quieter

i mean 46 dBA versus 32 dBA....46 is LOUD, 32 should be acceptable?

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July 17, 2002 1:49:15 PM

Quote:
Are You shure the HSF is correctly seated.The fast lockup under Toast could mean a sudden temperature rise in the CPU and the heat not getting out through the HSF fast enough.The MBM might miss it alltogether.


yeah i think that's correct, or at least part of the problem. a day ago i re-seated the HSF and gave it a clean, then a fresh coat of heat transfer compound, i made sure that it was applied pefectly this time.

Games haven't managed to crash the computer since...and idle temps are around 49 C now.....I still think Toast can crash it, but who cares so long as my games work yeah? :) 

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July 17, 2002 3:07:04 PM

Good for you!
July 17, 2002 3:52:49 PM

-------------
my mobo can't fit 80x80 HSF's...no room
-------------
but if i fitted a 60 --> 80mm fan adapter on my HSF and fitted a high output 80mm fan would i notice any extra cooling? the adapter would place the fan further away from the heatsink, so i'm wondering if it's worth it...

-------------
I've read somewhere that the 60 to 80 adapters don't allways perform so well.
It has something to do with the small HS itself and the airflow/pressure produced by the fan.So if you go for it check it out first.

As for the no room you could <A HREF="http://www.dansdata.com/coolercomp_p4.htm" target="_new">check this out</A>.Go to Tiger Cooler, it has 80*80 top 80*60 butt.Iv'e got it myself and made it fit after a bit of grinding off the edge.There are propably similar and better today but this has served me well, and 80*80 fans are so much quieter (Pabst for instance).

Oh. My proc is 1.2 T-bird, it sucks 60W loaded, so I wonder if your 1900+ can beat that.


<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Era on 07/17/02 07:05 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
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