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Stop Smothering AMD - Part II

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July 15, 2002 3:53:17 PM

Mr. Omid Rahmat, your followup article seemed rather defensive. Now if you maintain that nothing you said or did merited the flames you received than what are you being so defensive about? I don't see why the flames on a message board should upset you if you are firm in your belief that nothing about part I of your article was biased in any way. From the first article, to me at least, it seems like you were joining in on the AMD vs Intel debate, although i am not sure why you would want to do such a thing or why it would matter to you anyway. The fact that you wrote a response article citing the very posts in this message board show that you were offended in more than one way and felt that you had to offer some sort of defense. Now i truly hope that i, nor anyone else damaged your ego in anyway by stating how poorly thought out Part I of your article was. I also find it surprising that webmasters of other respected websites deemed it necessary to send you flames of their own. Don't you think you must have said something other than "fanboy" to upset so many people. In the end, as i stated in my previous post on this topic, it really doesn't matter what you get as long as you are happy with it and don't try to make yourself feel more secure in your purchase by pimping the product out to other people. But with all do respect Mr. Rahmat, Part I of your article was doing just that, only hidden beneath the language of a columnist who knows how to manipulate words to his advantage and confuse and even offend people if he wants to. No one knew where your article came from, and it's point seemed to elude the majority of us. Part II of your article showed me that you did not expect the public response that you recieved
and it upset you so much that you felt you had to offer a defense. Now in the future, for the readers of this site, for the proponents of hardware everywhere, and for you, please consider carefully what you are saying and who is reading it, becuase a lot of people will read and may take offense to an article entitled "Stop Smother AMD." I would like to end in saying that i could not agree more with the conclusion that you wrote for part II:

"Intel or AMD - who cares?! Nvidia or ATI - who cares?! Windows or Linux - who cares?! It's about the experience. The technology. It's the journey, not the destination. There is no end point. No perfect buy. No perfect company. No perfect chip. Stop looking for your identity in a piece of hardware!"

Now all i ask is that you follow your own words, and not fuel the already out of control flames that rage in this sensetive topic of discussion. After all, this is supposed to be fun, right?
July 15, 2002 4:09:25 PM

Oh God. You do realize that there's probably gonna be a large flame war? Oh well, it's all good. When I read that article, I also thought that he was kinda *apologizing* and defending himself and Tom's Hardware in general. I wish that the first article was never published, since none of this would've happened. I think that he does have a point though. Look at all the flaming that came from just one person's opinion. It's kinda sad in some ways. We should all learn to respect each others opinions and not shove it up their ass.

:smile: Falling down stairs saves time :smile:
July 15, 2002 4:11:23 PM

All I am going to say is his first, and now second piece of trash journalism doesn't belong on a professional hardware site. What basis does it have on what this site is about? It doesn't help anyone learn about new hardware, etc. It should be posted in a forum, or an opionions area, etc. TRASH TRASH TRASH TRASH TRASH :o )

And what do we learn from either of these articles? SQAUT!

From part 2:
"Now, if AMD was truly an Intel competitor, that's the path it would take. This would not have any impact on the AMD fan or purchaser."

BLOODY DUH!!!!?!?! Do "we" make AMD's business decisions? NO. WTF was the point of this on what I thought was a professional site. People on Madonion.com forums pretty much think this site sucks because of Mr. Omid, and call the site Tom's BIASware. Ah well, it only takes one brick to make the wall crumble.
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July 15, 2002 4:24:01 PM

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Now in the future, for the readers of this site, for the proponents of hardware everywhere, and for you, please consider carefully what you are saying and who is reading it, becuase a lot of people will read and may take offense to an article entitled "Stop Smother AMD."

stop being so uppity.

i happen to be a supporter of AMD products. i didnt have a problem with either article. i didnt take the attacks on fanboys personal because i know that i am not one. and i didnt take the attacks on AMD's marketing team personal, because i dont work for them. and i think their marketing strategy sucks.

as a "fan" i can examine my team and see its strengths and weaknesses. its true.. there is no perfection. however, you can always improve. but how can you improve if you keep your eyes closed? how can you improve if you dont know what to work on?
July 15, 2002 4:32:04 PM

I don't think you even understood his article.

He was basicly saying the hardware extremist, the chip trooper's, really need to get a life. The people that start the "amd vs intel" or "ati vs nvidia" crap. Who cares? That is basicly what he is saying. A good discussion about how AMD isn't marketing right or how Intel isn't marketing right or something. Not this rage and irrational anger to personally attack someone like you are doing now. That is uncivilized. We no longer live in the barbaric times anymore. We are civilized humans that socialize and discuss and talk to each other.

There is no need to personally attack anyone. If you find it offensive start a dialouge. Discuss it like a civilized being. perhaps you will see his side of the story and make way for your logical arguement. Communicate with intelligent thoughts, not angry rambling and rhetoric. That get's you no where. But a civilized discussion can open a whole new world.

Where is your self-respect and dignity? There is absolutly no reason to attack anyone personally no matter who they are. It's a matter of respect for the human species.

<A HREF="http://www.anandtech.com/mysystemrig.html?id=9933" target="_new"> My Rig </A>
July 15, 2002 4:48:50 PM

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All I am going to say is his first, and now second piece of trash journalism doesn't belong on a professional hardware site. What basis does it have on what this site is about? It doesn't help anyone learn about new hardware, etc. It should be posted in a forum, or an opionions area, etc.

if you stop and take a moment to notice, its in the "Columns" area. it is not in the "Tom's Guides" area. typically, i do not read anything from this area. these two articles(and some others) just happened to catch my eye. but from my personal observations, the other articles that i have read from this section have been opinionated as well. thats just the way it is. its in the columns. its for fun. i do believe that there have been polls taken questioning what sections we the readers like and dislike. if you dont like it you should have said something at that time. apparently enough people like it to keep it alive.
July 15, 2002 5:34:47 PM

Geeze. Some people really just need to get a life...

The first article started out by saying "It doesn't seem like a bad time to flail wildly and tilt at windmills." If anyone takes the article seriously after that statement, they really need to tap a clue.

Further, I pretty much agreed with every one of his statements. His first article was spot on. His first major point:

AMD has a <i>ton</i> of good press, for free. Nearly every tech journal, site, mag, etc. has some sort of a comment or review on an AMD CPU. And almost every comment or review is a good one.

Yet with all of great PR, AMD still had to lower their Q2 revinue projections <i>twice</i>, to drop a total of <b>$100 million</b>.

So if <i>everyone</i> loves AMD so much, why is their sales doing so badly that they making $100 million less than expected? Why don't all of these people who love AMD go out and buy AMD?

His second major point:

I thought that he was fairly clear that the 'fanboys' were those devout fanatics who rave and rave about AMD. They practically drool AMD. They'll fight to the death should anyone dare suggest Intel might be in any way equal or better. So if you are an AMD product owner, or even respect AMD, and you can still actually admit the merits of Intel as well, then you are <b>not</b> a 'fanboy'.

The problem is that these 'fanboys', these 'ChipTroopers', are so fanatical that they overhype everything AMD plans for the future. They overhype it so badly, that by the time it actually becomes a reality, it can't possibly live up to the insane hype that these 'fanboys', these 'ChipTroopers' have made it out to be.

Worse though, is that the one and only market group that AMD actually plays up to are these 'fanboys', these 'ChipTroopers'. So AMD is in effect feeding petrol to the very flaming idiots that are tearing down their name. If AMD were to actually ditch catering to these people and concentrate on selling their chips to the people that really count, such as corporations, then they might turn a decent profit for a change and finally be able to actually compete against Intel for a near-equal market share.

Omid made himself pretty clear, and had some damn good points.

Yet the super-sensitive who can't even comprehend where humor begins and their arse ends, and can't even tell when they're obviously not the ones being joked about, have ranted and raved like Omid had just set their pants on fire.

As for the second article, it was far from apologetic and the sole purpose was to both put the above-mentioned super-sensitive flamers in their place and re-iterate to their intellectually-challenged minds just exactly what a 'fanboy' is, and re-label that as a 'ChipTrooper' for those who just aren't smart enough to get it even after the definition of 'fanboy'.

Further, both articles are under the 'Second Hand Smoke' <b>columns</b>. They are <b>not</b> product reviews or technical briefs. They are <b>opinions</b>. (As if the title of 'Second Hand Smoke' isn't enough of a clue!) And if anyone has read any of the 'Second Hand Smoke' columns before, they will understand that they're usually 1) Silly and 2) Highly-Abrasive. After all, you don't have to be serious <b>all</b> of the time.

So anyone still running around screaming like a little school girl should either:
1) Grow a brain to realize that you weren't the ones being mocked.
2) Grow a backbone so that you can stand up for yourself and shrug it off like a man when someone throws you even a tiny little punch instead of running and whining to mommy.
3) Get a life and realize that your CPU isn't <i>everything</i>.
4) Get a sense of humor and laugh along with the frankly rather humerous articles.

<A HREF="http://www.nuklearpower.com/comic/171.htm" target="_new">The corpse you find may be your own.</A> - Black Mage
July 15, 2002 6:13:48 PM

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You focus on the big money, the dealers, the brand names. You want to be Wal Mart. You're not happy being popular. You'd rather be rich, rich, richer. Now, if AMD was truly an Intel competitor, that's the path it would take.

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If AMD were to actually ditch catering to these people and concentrate on selling their chips to the people that really count, such as corporations

I love how people talk about AMD's marketing strategy (Ohmid especially) as if they were some kind of expert analyst. You can focus on losses all you want, but for everyone's information, AMD had a revenue of $3.9 BILLION last year. It's estimated that they'll have about $1.6 billion in revenues for the first half of 2002. (Second quarter earnings are released tomorrow, I believe.) Maintained, this will be a loss in revenue from last year. However, AMD sold a record 8 million processors in the first quarter 2002. We can all account for the fact that they have been losing revenue, some of which can be attributed to an economy slump and alot has to do with Intel's aggressive pricing. (Not talking about the high end chips here, guys.) Of course, Intel takes the cake when it comes to revenue: $26.5 billion in 2001. (I don't know how this breaks down into earnings for each company though, anyone want to take on the task?) Despite Intel's overbearing lead the point is that AMD is making some serious bucks - definitely a company to be reckoned with.

Marketing strategy for CPUs doesn't work like it does for Coca-Cola, or Nike. It's cold hard numbers, benchmarks, money, performance. Sure, your regular Mom and Pop will feel all good inside when they see that P4 Sticker on their new Dell. (Especially because of those really 'neat' commercials with astronauts dancing around in an empty room.) But this isn't how chipmakers sell their CPUs. Think a step back to how the CPU got in the machine to begin with. They sell them to large OEMs - Why is it that when Mom and Pop go to Dell.com they only have the option of choosing an Intel chip? It's because Intel 'marketed' their chips to Dell through cold hard performance, stability, and most importantly, reliability. Not with stupid commercials.

The last thing that is "ruining" AMD, Mr. Ohmid is their marketing. Just because you don't see the 'marketing' doesn't mean it's not there. But of course you, a columnist, are in a position to tell a multibillion dollar company how they should sell their product. Do you honestly think that AMD doesn't know to whom and how they need to sell their CPUs? Of course they do, they just need the muscle of a product line of processors that delivers performance and reliability when they step up to the bargaining table. And of course, against a giant like Intel you'll need the experience of several years.

It is my opinion, that over the past several years AMD has been doing just that. By increasing sales and getting more chips out to people, AMD can start to be known as Intel's formidable rival. They've been doing this for years - slowly, but surely. Through intense R&D and some good ol' XPerience (I know you like that...) AMD is positioning themselves so that they are in a place where they can 'market' in a sector where the real money lies.

Good marketeting in the cpu industry is 100% product and 0% dancing astronauts.

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Omid made himself pretty clear, and had some damn good points.

No he didn't, he cited some good facts and ONE major point (for which a second article was required to clarify the first), but by no means was it good. Yes, we all know where the big money is and no, we don't know what happens at AMD's board meetings, but we can postulate that the men (and women) sitting around the table are obviously intelligent people that know how to run a company. It is only natural that they will exhaust every possibility of making money. Just because you don't see AMDs in Dell's computers doesn't mean that they haven't pitched their CPUs to them.

Just a late-breaking brain fart: To those that insist that advertising to Mom and Pop is absolutley essential, think about AMD's choice for processor naming. How many Joe Schmoe's would think their new Windows XP would work real swell with a brand new spit-polished Athlon XP?
July 15, 2002 7:17:49 PM

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Good marketeting in the cpu industry is 100% product and 0% dancing astronauts.

Not true. I know far too many people outside of the computer industry that don't even know there is an alternitive to Intel because of those dancing astronauts and aliens and blue people.

Most people don't compair benchmarks before shopping. Heck, most people don't compair prices on many things. So how would Joe Average ever even hear about an AMD chip unless he happened to stumble into one somewhere and actualy ask someone about it? And even then, why would he buy something that he just discovered existed when Intel has been around since the begining of time as far as he knows?

OEMs don't cary AMD in general for 2 big reasons:
1) AMD's inability to produce the chips fast enough to fit their marketing stratergy. Dell is a good example of this.
2) Lack of demand for products from AMD in the general and business market.

The first one is a different issue entirely, but the second one is perfectly addressable by advertizing to the general public till they can assosiate the name AMD Athlon with a computer easily. It doesn't have to be dancing space men, half naked women, or anything like that, but it does have to get the name out there.

They did a good job with the initial Athlon adds (I remember the guy trying to reroute a train and picking the slower Pentium computer) which got people to ask about the chip, but they stoped. It may cost money, and it may hurt the company in the short term, but 2 years down the road, when the Athlon and AMD are household names like Intel and Pentium are now, then they'll be in a much better position to sell more chips and move out from under Intel's shadow.

English is phun.
July 15, 2002 7:26:24 PM

agreed. if a lot of end users want it, the big corps will want to get it for them. end users making your sales pitch for you can be powerful.
July 15, 2002 7:39:29 PM

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Intel or AMD - who cares?! Nvidia or ATI - who cares?! Windows or Linux - who cares?! It's about the experience. The technology. It's the journey, not the destination. There is no end point. No perfect buy. No perfect company. No perfect chip. Stop looking for your identity in a piece of hardware!

He hit the nail right on the head, everyone needs to wake up. ANY type of fanboy needs to read this a couple times and understand it. I don't think anyone could have put it simpler. Well maybe a fight club style would have been better
You are not your CPU
You are not your GPU
You are not your freakin OS!

Gosh I'm such a nerd sometimes, but then again arn't we all. :smile:
July 15, 2002 8:10:53 PM

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Not true. I know far too many people outside of the computer industry that don't even know there is an alternitive to Intel because of those dancing astronauts and aliens and blue people.

Most people don't compair benchmarks before shopping. Heck, most people don't compair prices on many things. So how would Joe Average ever even hear about an AMD chip unless he happened to stumble into one somewhere and actualy ask someone about it?

Well, that's the whole point. Those people that don't compare benchmarks will go with premade systems from Dell, Compaq, HP, IBM, etc. (I believe Compaq and HP merged.) I do know that Dell is pretty huge, so I will compare their $31.9 billion 2001 revenue to Compaq's $7.7 billion. (I'd add in IBM and HP, but they have a much wider market and I couldn't find any specific financials.) The fact that Dell doesn't even OFFER an AMD solution is a huge set back for AMD - a market of potentially (but not realistically) several billion dollars. You said it yourself, "how would Joe Average even hear about AMD?" Well, if Dell offered AMD solutions he'd find out about it. But unfortunately they don't, so in this case it wouldn't be a matter of pumping out commercials to everyday consumers but insead a matter of convincing Dell to support AMD. Once Dell adds an option for processors, AMD can cater all they want to consumerism because now people have a place to buy their CPUs.

On a different note though, average consumers are just a fraction of the OEM market. Consider huge institutions such as governments, schools, universities, and large corperations and businesses that not only buy workstations for students and employees, but also buy servers and other services. (My school, Cornell, deals exclusively with Dell in the PC market. I'd estimate a conservative 5,000 workstations alone.) Also consider that consumers probably upgrade less frequently than do large businesses and institutions. Now, when my school goes to Dell for new computers next year and Dell tells them that they offer Intel systems only, do you think they're going to bother asking/worrying/inquiring about AMD solutions, especially since Dell doesn't even offer them? It's true that those in charge of IT issues in a company are well aware that AMD exists, but they are also aware of the quality and service that accompanies a Dell system and will gladly forgoe any benefit they see in going with an AMD solution.

Undoubtedly, advertising to the average consumer will help rather than hurt AMD. It's just my opinion that $20 million dollars spent in R&D will pay off more than $20 million in advertising. "Split it up!" you say. Well, like I said in my previous post, I'm sure that AMD knows exactly what needs to be done and is doing everything necessary to do it. If they see it fit to advertise, they will - and as long as it's not astronauts with really bad rhythm, then I'm ok with it.
July 15, 2002 8:19:01 PM

In reply to:

Quote:

Intel or AMD - who cares?! Nvidia or ATI - who cares?! Windows or Linux - who cares?! It's about the experience. The technology. It's the journey, not the destination. There is no end point. No perfect buy. No perfect company. No perfect chip. Stop looking for your identity in a piece of hardware!

He hit the nail right on the head, ...

Didn't the same idea, although worded differently, has already been stated for numerous times by other members in this forum? IMHO, the problem with the 'Stop smothering AMD' articles is that they should really be posted in the CPU forum rather than officially published. For something officially published I'm expecting a higher level of professionalism. If Mr.Rahmat has interest in joining the Intel vs. AMD or any flame wars, he should register as a normal user and debate all he want. But it appears to me that he is taking advantage of his writer position for his own attacks.
July 15, 2002 8:21:55 PM

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But it appears to me that he is taking advantage of his writer position for his own attacks.

I'll second that.
July 15, 2002 9:14:04 PM

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On a different note though, average consumers are just a fraction of the OEM market. Consider huge institutions such as governments, schools, universities, and large corperations and businesses that not only buy workstations for students and employees, but also buy servers and other services. (My school, Cornell, deals exclusively with Dell in the PC market. I'd estimate a conservative 5,000 workstations alone.) Also consider that consumers probably upgrade less frequently than do large businesses and institutions. Now, when my school goes to Dell for new computers next year and Dell tells them that they offer Intel systems only, do you think they're going to bother asking/worrying/inquiring about AMD solutions, especially since Dell doesn't even offer them? It's true that those in charge of IT issues in a company are well aware that AMD exists, but they are also aware of the quality and service that accompanies a Dell system and will gladly forgoe any benefit they see in going with an AMD solution.


Actually most of the purchases made by huge institutions are probably done by "Joe Average".

"Joe Average" is told to purchase computers by his Boss. He goes to Dell because they are a big company and must be doing something right to become so big. Dell pushes Intel processors. Joe has seen the Intel commercials and has heard the name Pentium many many times. In the end, he decides he is making the proper decision because he is buying from two "household name" companies.

In the end the advertising dollars work out quite well.
July 15, 2002 9:20:39 PM

The problem with Omid's opinion pieces is that they carry an attacking, deriding tone that smacks of gantlet dropping and nothing else. He isn't providing an opinion on something that can be measured. And if it can, he didn't provide any sourcing or reliable credentials to his cause. He did provide a couple of links in the second piece, but the first one did all the damage. Anything after that is going to be viewed as rump-covering. Journalism as a profession gets its bad light from pieces like these. And Tom's Hardware Guide takes flak from pieces like these.
An ethical, responsible journalist, whether columnist or not, isn't successful because he riles people up. He is successful because he presents an opinion with REAL BACKING that is relevant to an issue that is in the public light. He came out of nowhere with the first piece. He offended a great many people with speak of "fanboys" and the like. And then he expects every reader to understand exactly what he is saying? Journalists that don't write in a manner that is clear, concise and comprehensible to a majority are poor, poor journalists. If he didn't get his point across clearly, it is HIS fault, not the readers'.
I encourage the editorial staff of this Web site to more thoroughly and carefully review further pieces by Omid. Write columns that have a purpose other than to piss a bunch of people off. That is not why we come here to read them.
THANK YOU
FUNK
July 15, 2002 9:32:17 PM

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The fact that Dell doesn't even OFFER an AMD solution is a huge set back for AMD

Dell's Business model requires them to have enough CPUs to cover their expected sales of a particular model before they even sell them. When they were thinking about it, they inquired about AMD, and they found out that AMD would not be able to supply them with enough CPUs to fit this need, therefore they decided to not carry them. At least that's what Dell reported as their reason for not carrying AMD CPUs at this time.

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On a different note though, average consumers are just a fraction of the OEM market. Consider huge institutions such as governments, schools, universities, and large corperations and businesses that not only buy workstations for students and employees, but also buy servers and other services.

There are a few factors that have inhibited AMD in these arenas:

1) Image and Reputation. AMD has an image of being unstable, and a "Clone", which earned bad reputations early in the business comunity (late '80s, early '90s). AMD systems had stability issues with some of their motherboard chipsets as well, which are finaly being worked out over the past year.

2) Untill the Athlon MP came out, there was no AMD solution for the server market. Most servers are optimum for 2 CPUs or more, and if you don't have a platform for them, then you can't touch the market. The stability issues with their image also hurt, as servers need to be ultra-stable.

3) Production. AMD doesn't have the raw production capacity to make enough CPUs to fill much of this market. Hence their problems with Dell.

Now, I've not said that advertizing is a cure all, but it does help. Advertizing can:

1) Change the Image and Reputation. People will rethink what they know when they see several adds about products. It also lets those who don't have any knowledge of AMD form a more positive image.

2) Create demand. There obviously isn't enough demand for companies like Dell to start making AMD systems, or else they would likely be moving to do so dispite AMD's production not being able to provide enough CPUs up front.

With a new immage, and created demand, AMD can start infiltrating these markets slowly. All that would remain would be to increase production, and that could be AMD's biggest challenge.

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It's just my opinion that $20 million dollars spent in R&D will pay off more than $20 million in advertising.

Here's a good example of a company that failed with this same issue. Commodore's Amiga line of computers were increadably powerfull and cost effective. Several years ahead of the PC and Mac technology at the times in terms of CPU, Sound, and Video performance. However, they used what was refered to as "Stealth Advertising", which was word of mouth from satisfied customers. Amiga has gone bankrupt and been passed back and forth between several customers since, and very few people even recall their existance.

AMD would be wise to learn from someone elses mistakes. Their only advantage over Commodore is that it's the same platform that their biggest competitor runs on (X86 architecture).

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and as long as it's not astronauts with really bad rhythm, then I'm ok with it.

With the names they've saved for their future CPUs, I'd guess they'd likely use some realy old anime of giant robots or some such nonsense.

English is phun.
July 15, 2002 9:36:06 PM

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You are not your freakin OS!

And millions of windows users breath a sigh of relief =P

English is phun.
July 15, 2002 10:13:27 PM

LOL this is like the gaming forums, only it is much more narrow market with many more people. Which makes it all the worse for having "camps".

I think people should have read the submission for what it was. A personal opinion, of course you have every right to voice yours, but some are just pathetic in voicing, and down right children looking for attention.


However, to the writer of the article I think your piece was very good and well written. However, it is way too easy to piss people off when they are already looking for a fight. Damned if you do damned if you don't, but you should expect these things whenever writing about a controversial subject.
July 15, 2002 11:22:33 PM

lol! ya really! we'd crash all the time. Like out of no where we'd have a blue face with white coloring on our face lol!

""You are not your freakin OS!"

And millions of windows users breath a sigh of relief =P""


<A HREF="http://www.anandtech.com/mysystemrig.html?id=9933" target="_new"> My Rig </A>
July 15, 2002 11:23:59 PM

One of the first things I learned in Business 101 just dont point out problems, find solutions.
If Mr. Ohmid thinks shedding fanboys will help in any way. I would disagree. I still maintain they have little impact on the the bottom line. I also doubt Intel uses any info from the web to sell its products (as alluded to in his second article).
The articles were opinion pieces, fine. But on day 2 of Business 101 I learned it helps to support your opinions with hard facts. Leave a bread crumb trail of facts to your final conclusion/opinion. It makes it easier to swallow that way.
So he thinks AMD's marketing strategy stinks? Thats not a newsflash. My opinion is AMD doesnt advertise for two reasons:
a. they cant meet demand anyway.
b. they cant afford an advertising war with Intel. For every tv spot/ad/billboard AMD puts up. Intel can put up 20. So why bother? Intel can saturate, AMD can only sprinkle. Which is the way it is now. So why spend $200 million to be in an Ad war and be in the same position when the war is over?
Oh well, whatever.

Benchmarks are like sex, everybody loves doing it, everybody thinks they are good at it.
July 15, 2002 11:38:35 PM

Well truth be known they advertise it seems in the wrong market, one where they are already well known. Why not go for business? That is were the true money is anyway.
July 15, 2002 11:58:12 PM

Man, everyone is tearing me up today.....

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Actually most of the purchases made by huge institutions are probably done by "Joe Average".

"Joe Average" is told to purchase computers by his Boss. He goes to Dell because they are a big company and must be doing something right to become so big. Dell pushes Intel processors. Joe has seen the Intel commercials and has heard the name Pentium many many times. In the end, he decides he is making the proper decision because he is buying from two "household name" companies.

You are quite mistaken. Most (and I'm willing to bet ALL), companies with over 50 employees have an IT professional (if not a team of IT professionals) that maintain the company's computer resources and handle networking. You can bet your ass that these guys are extremely well educated in their field - more so than any of us. If there's something to be said for AMD, they'd know about it. I can speak personally on this issue because I work for the computer labs in my school. The people I work under are EXTREMELY well informed. They are anything but your average Joe when it comes to computer technologies. Also, it's probably unlikely that a large company will make a costly purchase because of the household name. It's the quality behind the name that interests a company.

Bront,

It's clear that it's in a company's best interest to put a positive company image out to the public. I just feel that the best way for AMD to put out a good image is to make a good product - one that matches Intel in performance, stability, reliability, and cost-effectiveness. It would be less effective for them to put out cute commercials telling the world how great they are. Once they are on par with Intel - once the playing field is level in product quality - then the two companies can duke it out on the advertising front. And it's not just my opinion - it looks like AMD feels that it's in their best interest (at least to date) to lay off mass advertising. At current, Athlon XPs run hotter, slower, and (due to chipsets, but less a factor nowadays) less stable. What's AMD going to advertise? Cheap prices?

You cited 3 things that have inhibited AMD from entering the larger markets. It seems to me, however, that advertising will do little to solve any of them. You claimed how AMD's image was plagued with negativity during the late 80s and 90s. Did that image change because of advertising and marketing? Maybe a little, but you can be almost certain that their $3.9 billion in revenue last year had alot to do with them developing a better product that what they were offering a decade prior.

Quote:
1) Change the Image and Reputation. People will rethink what they know when they see several adds about products. It also lets those who don't have any knowledge of AMD form a more positive image.

2) Create demand. There obviously isn't enough demand for companies like Dell to start making AMD systems, or else they would likely be moving to do so dispite AMD's production not being able to provide enough CPUs up front.

With a new immage, and created demand, AMD can start infiltrating these markets slowly. All that would remain would be to increase production, and that could be AMD's biggest challenge.

You are most certainly correct. However, good advertising MUST go hand in hand with a quality product (when viewed against competitors) to be successful.

We have to clear something up though;

Quote:
Dell's Business model requires them to have enough CPUs to cover their expected sales of a particular model before they even sell them. When they were thinking about it, they inquired about AMD, and they found out that AMD would not be able to supply them with enough CPUs to fit this need....

3) Production. AMD doesn't have the raw production capacity to make enough CPUs to fill much of this market. Hence their problems with Dell.

But then...

Quote:
2) Create demand. There obviously isn't enough demand for companies like Dell to start making AMD systems, or else they would likely be moving to do so dispite AMD's production not being able to provide enough CPUs up front.

Is it that there's too much demand for AMD to respond to, or is it that there isn't enough demand....

For the record:
<b>My current rig:</b>
Asus A7V333R
XP 2200+
512 MB Corsair PC2700 XMS

<b>My previous rig:</b>
Athlon Classic 900 @ 1gig
Abit KA7-100
512 MB Mushkin/Crucial PC133
July 16, 2002 12:01:10 AM

Many people have said, the writer of said article knows nothing.

Well personally he may well know more than the average guys who are posting here.

People have also said his opinion does not belong here. It is a column, an editors column, editors columns are opinion based articles, they do belong. Look at the way both articles have made people resond. (I am not talking about the massivly over opinionated responses). I think it has had the perfect effect.

And to thos who assult him directly, you don't belong here, the responses he got and posted in the article, OMG i was appauld, no-one has a right to speak to you like that ever!
It is an opinion, one that I could not agree with more, AMD have not done enough marketing, I have never seen an AMD advert on TV, in a newspaper or on the radio. You guys say the intel adverts don't work but OMG even you guys have fallen prey to them.

Think of a processor company; ask someone on the street they will say intel.

Think of a processor advert, you guys have named it already, the men in space suits. And ofcourse Intel have those chimes they play at the end of each advert (dum dum di dum).

The intel advertising works, firstly AMD need to try some TV advertising, to get the consumer to realise that there is an alternative. The normal average joe as you guys have been calling it, goes into a computer shop and they probably say, does it have a pentium? to the salesmen, trust me this happens.

What AMD want the consumer to say is; what about the AMD Athlon processor? The bloke in the shop will think wait a minute there is a demand for these things and buy them. AMD do need to aim for tier 1 OEM, but first get the average computer shop to sell PC's with Athlons, it will be easier, once Dell & IBM etc realise that actually there is a demand then they may take up the product.

If AMD really did nearly get dell to sell their product, they need to do something about getting the production up.

No-one wants to admit it but AMD currently is on the verge of falling down a hole and never coming back. They are currently on a knife edge, they could go either way, good management will save them.

Something else people don't realise is that AMD have been around for years, maybe longer than intel but I can't be sure. The flash memory market and the programmable logic market as well, infact some of the concept for the actual logic in a bios chip came from AMD so we would not have flashable bios if it was not for them.

I do not choose sides on the AMD-Intel battle, it is like saying to choose an suitable but possibly childish example but it is like saying Luke Skywalker is better than Darth Vader or my pokemon is better than your pokemon. It is childish and sad, who cares anything that moves the technology forward is cool, it makes everything better. It gives us better products.

Something everyone should realise is with processors, there is no perfection, there will never be, like the fact you can never travel at the speed of light, you can never reach perfection, but you can get close, and we ain't anywhere close yet. Hence the saying there is always room from improvement. AMD need to improve and fast, they cannot continue like this.

Quote:

Intel or AMD - who cares?! Nvidia or ATI - who cares?! Windows or Linux - who cares?! It's about the experience. The technology. It's the journey, not the destination. There is no end point. No perfect buy. No perfect company. No perfect chip. Stop looking for your identity in a piece of hardware!

I don't like using other peoples posts but this quote OMG exactly.

The writer does have a right to an opinion and the columns section where the editors post is the perfect place. Everyone has a right to an opinion, and NO OPINION IS INCORRECT! Opinions cannot be incorrect, his article does have it's roots in a good base, the "truth" is always hard to accept.


It took me so long to write this umm 4 more people posted while I was wrting it :-P.





<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Hoolio on 07/15/02 08:06 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
July 16, 2002 12:10:47 AM

Quote:
No-one wants to admit it but AMD currently is on the verge of falling down a hole and never coming back. They are currently on a knife edge, they could go either way, good management will save them.

Are you saying this as a fact, or as your own personal opinion? I haven't heard this from anyone before and personally, I'm pretty surprised. Please point me in a direction where I can find more information on this.
July 16, 2002 12:21:14 AM

Tom's article got some attention alright, but it really made me think. I really like using alternative stuff, especially if it's better. I'm an amd user, i use trillian instead of aim, i use opera instead of iexplorer, i use litestep instead of the explorer shell...It gives a sense of "i'm better than you" attitude. He's got a point though(although probably already stated several times) we shouldn't really be loyal to anybody. If we stick so hard to a company or their product, it hurts the flow of information, thoughts,expression, and ideas...wasn't that the whole point of computers, the internet, and (in my opinion)music?
Sometimes I can be a fanboy, it's easy to be especially if you talk to someone who doesn't know all the information and just bought something because they didn't know of anything else. But I've been inspired not say "'x'sucks! you should use 'x2'(replace x with product); I'm gonna start giving everything a chance. I wanna try everything! I mean,what does linux, macs, ati cards, intel chips, scsi drives...shoot, even aol hold for me? Can we start learning from the mistakes to try or make better products? I sure hope so.
"I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one"
July 16, 2002 12:49:15 AM

Quote:
Oh God. You do realize that there's probably gonna be a large flame war? Oh well, it's all good. When I read that article, I also thought that he was kinda *apologizing* and defending himself and Tom's Hardware in general.


Again, as with the first article, didnt read it, always thought omid was a moron.

Flame away compatriots.

:wink: The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark :wink:
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
July 16, 2002 1:08:14 AM

Quote:
"Intel or AMD - who cares?! Nvidia or ATI - who cares?! Windows or Linux - who cares?! It's about the experience. The technology. It's the journey, not the destination. There is no end point. No perfect buy. No perfect company. No perfect chip. Stop looking for your identity in a piece of hardware!"

yup.

Quote:
Now all i ask is that you follow your own words, and not fuel the already out of control flames that rage in this sensetive topic of discussion. After all, this is supposed to be fun, right?

yup.


<pre>crash from geek dot where are the 52 comments?!? BestOf Askheart/Nataku. LoL - now 55c (update) - do you know there is a daily update?</pre><p>i've plugged my home blower to my case ... dunno what happen ... that works?!?
July 16, 2002 1:22:43 AM

Actually I would recommend you give a chance to the second article.
I simply don't have time to write and comment now, I have over 3-4 pages to catch up since I was on vacation this weekend (Toronto baby!), but I think most of the replies here, which are in-depth and held some or at least one positive comment on the second article, speak what I would have said. Slvr again sums up his opinion which sometimes takes the odd side, but the argument is well layed out to explain the opinion. Bront, Hoolio, fcm6 have also had very good layed out arguments for their opinion, and I also agree with most of what they say.

Again friend, try to read it, some parts speak out truth.

--
:smile: Intel and AMD sitting under a tree, P-R-O-C-E-S-S-I-N-G! :smile:
July 16, 2002 1:35:13 AM

Quote:

I was on vacation this weekend (Toronto baby!)

Hehe, I might go to Montreal later this summer. :smile:

:wink: <b><i>"A penny saved is a penny earned!"</i></b> :wink:
July 16, 2002 2:16:01 AM

You, like most of the people posting on this topic, fail to see the REAL meaning of the article.

Nja469, again, you still don't get what Omid is trying to get across.

Skater, you actually got what Omid is trying to say (some of it anyways).

Slvr, as always, you have layed down the cold hard facts, and the truth. It's a pity that everyone doesn't understand or doesn't want to understand the truth and the facts.

I believe that both articles were right on, and too many of the "wrong" people were offended, and alot of people are flaming for no reason. In fact, some of the greatest flamers are in fact the "Chiptroopers" that Omid is referring to. The fact is, people like that need to get a life, and also need to stop reusing the same arguments over and over.
Quote:
<i> originally written by fcm6</i>
Do you honestly think that AMD doesn't know to whom and how they need to sell their CPUs?

Well, according to AMD's revenue, and the overall state of the company, they don't. AMD still doesn't have any tier 1 support, and the average joe still doesn't even know who AMD is. And marketing is just as important as the actual CPU itself. What good is a god-like CPU if you don't tell everyone about it? If AMD did know what ther were doing, then their CPU's would be a popular choice in the server and business markets. Is that a reality? No. Those markets are currently "ruled" by Xeons, P4, and P3's.

Oni you also get the point of the articles mostly.

Bront, you also speak the truth and I totally agree with you.

And texas, about AMD's current position, if they want to become and bigger company, and to earn more profits, and gain more support and appreciation, they're going to have to find a way to advertise, and improve the quality, reliability, and stability of their CPU's, or else, Hammer's effect won't be any greater then the Athlon's effect was when it was released.

I really must get a point across to everyone. Omid was totally correct when he stated in article II that "there's a reason why Intel is successful". Intel's CPU's have always been, and currently still are, more reliable, more stable, run cooler, and are more well known than AMD's CPU's. Also, the performance of Intel's CPU's is up to par. That is why they are successful. That, and the fact that they can meet any, and all demand for their products. I agree with you, though fcm6, on this point. AMD first has to improve the heat protection, the durability, reliability, and make their CPU's run cooler. Also, they MUST provide very stable platforms for their CPU's if they want to succeed in the server or blade server markets. Only after AMD starts making a well-rounded chip, should they start advertising.

I also disagree with AMD's on-going "obsession" of keeping their dies size as small as possible. This might lower the production cost, but they run in to manufacturing difficulties trying to keep the dies size very small. And the small die size has not helped to lower the temperature at which it's CPU's run at. Current P4's are clocked higher than XPs' or Tbreds, and have a larger dies size, yet they run cooler (in general).

Personally, I like Intel's CPU's better, because price/performance doesn't concern me too much. Of course, i'm always on a budget but I look for the best quality CPU, and the best CPU OVERALL and if it happens to be somewhat expensive, then so be it.

Also, I never buy the latest and greatest CPU out there. I usually buy a midrange model, or the second best, but I never buy top-of-the-line, because it's simply a waste of money paying for a premium like that.

My friends and other people who know me are all amazed at my system, and amazed at how my CPU can run only at 25 degrees celsius at full load, using a standard Intel cooler on my PIII 1Ghz. I've never had any problems with Intel CPU's, while I have had numerous problems with AMD's. Anyways, enough of this. I have already stated why I prefer Intel CPU's and I don't want to prolong this topic.

Mat, you really should read the articles. I'm curious to see what (if any) arguments (or debates) will you bring up?

In conclusion, I really hope that no new arguments or flames are added to this topic (unless they are civilized, and constructive) and for all you fanboys, there's more to life than forums and CPU's. Good day to you.

------------------------------------------------
Montecito & Chivano; Intel's Big Guns.
July 16, 2002 3:17:33 AM

Does this mean im <b>NOT</b> an AMD fanboy?
dammit!!!

Proud owner of the <b>Beige Beast</b> :lol: 
July 16, 2002 3:50:18 AM

Please people I don't really get this. You've read the article or are you guys skimming thru it just to find what exactly this guy says so that you can fire back. Listen and listen carefully because what he is saying is a definite truth. I have a business of my own in the Borough of Queens in New York. When it comes to business you never root for the guy who has the best stuff or the greatest products. You go for the guy who can make you the most money. I swear out of the people that I speak to day in a day out only a few are knowledgable enough that have heard of AMD. HEARD!!! This is ridiculous.

Here is what it comes down to. I show a customer 2 machines that are identical in all senses except in the CPU make. I tell this person that the benefits of having an AMD CPU are gigantic compare to what you get with Intel. AMD has plans to continue supporting Socket A for the next year so when it comes to upgrading you PC all you have to do is exchange the CPU and your done. You have a faster and better machine. So the person asks, "Who is AMD? How come I've never heard of them before? Are you sure that this works with Windows?"(This guy at the moment sees that both machines are loading WindowsXP, so you tell me?) This person is not ignorant. This person is just like any other consumer out there trying to get the most out of his money. He has heard of Compaq, HP, Toshiba, Dell and all of those commercials have this little logo at the end that pops up on the right or left bottom side of the screen that says "Intel Inside." Do you think I can compete with such a huge marketing plan like that? In this business like any other business you are out to make money and if you are not then get the heck out. AMD should take this same approach. I've had enough of AMD sitting on its A$$ to have its fan base save its A$$ from extinction. I'm tired of hearing news story after news story of Intel telling the Tawainesse Companies that if they do not do as it says they will pull the plug. AMD needs to see that there is fraud in this and that they can attack it. But from what I've seeing is that they are just sitting around waiting for another Intel mistake to steal another 10 to 20 percent which I think will never happen again. Intel made a huge mistake going with RDRAM as their choice for memory even though in terms of memory bandwith that is their best bet, but they saw the merky waters and DDR was born and AMD went with it. At the end Intel realize that even though it had been a driving force in the arena of new technologies to make its future look brighter than the competition the community bomb it to hell and said no more. We will choose who to go with and we choose DDR.

PS. I am typing to you from an AthlonXP 1900+ 512MB DDR RAM GeForce4 TI 4400. If you think I am an Intel fanboy.

My name may be Jesus, but don't go around asking for miracles.
July 16, 2002 3:59:07 AM

Quote:
I tell this person that the benefits of having an AMD CPU are gigantic compare to what you get with Intel. AMD has plans to continue supporting Socket A for the next year so when it comes to upgrading you PC all you have to do is exchange the CPU and your done. You have a faster and better machine

What are the GIGANTIC benefits? And what about Socket478? Is Intel changing Sockets within the next year?

This sig runs too hot.
July 16, 2002 4:41:08 AM

I'm so confused with people right now.
I don't understand how these people get off yelling at Omid.

Firstly you can look at it like this. Omid was expressing his opinion. He wasn't hurting anyone, nor was he lashing out violently.
It's like therapy in a way, you have to talk about it to get it out, else it's always haunting you. And I can see how this can haunt you in annoying ways.

Secondly, He has a point. Look, I'm an AMD person myself really. I love them, and been interested in them since I found out they existed 6 years ago when I was almost 12.
I've own 5 AMD 486's, a thunderbird 1.4ghz, and a duron 1ghz processor. I love them. They're quality products.

That doesn't mean that Im, or anyone else shouldn't have qualms with them. You guys are getting to the point where you sound like Facist, Neo-Nazi's, but not trying to take over the world, you're trying to opress all of us, and take Intel under at the same. You don't realize, that you're hurting AMD.

All he's saying, is that he would like AMD to get off it's ass and do some good marketing and some better enginnering.

The only thing hold AMD processors back from being better than Intel's, is the bus speed. The thouroughbred was a big disapointment. Sure it brought us cooler chips, but the performance is disapointing.
The only reason Intel processors of the same level are better is because they're got 100 mhz quad pipped DDR buses! We wonder where the performance comes from. AMD has done a very good job in getting high cache hit ratios... that's not as much of the problem... but we need that greater bandwidth granted from high bus speeds. The memory isn't the only thing hooked up to the bus, it's the rest of the computer. You've got you graphix, and sound and all those things sucking up over half the bus's performance or more at one time! So if the cache misses, which it will often, you go down below the performance of a 133mhz processor. The hardrive transfers, and memory to the graphix cards, it's all too much for mere 266MHZ ddr. Fine, it's the ALMIGHTY 64-BIT DDR!!! That doesn't do the trick though.
This new generation 133Mhz quad pumped DDR (Rambus) is 32 bit RDram. That doubles the performance, at the same cost (approxiamtely) if it had only been 16 bit rdram.

This has to be hell for Omid, because I can see how close minded facist chiptroopers of the third rieche are flamming him constantly.
You guys are almost as bad as apple-nazis. And I LIKE MACINTOSH TOO!!!
Just give it a break, and grow up. We all love hardware here, and we love personal computers.

Don't let odd obsessions fuel you into facist insanity...
It's all just silicon and wires.
Calm down.<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by psikoticsilver on 07/16/02 00:45 AM.</EM></FONT></P>
July 16, 2002 4:56:37 AM

I read both pieces,and most of the comments that followed.Two things kinda jumped out at me..
1). When you concentrate on what he is saying,and not how he is saying it,it takes on a different perspective.
2). The more the bashing,flaming,and hate mails that this conversation topic generates,the more they prove his point...:) 

If ya don't ask..How ya gonna know.
July 16, 2002 4:56:59 AM

I'm new to this message board so don't kill me but:

I am an avid AMD user, I encourage other people to buy them and I do turn up my nose when I hear that one of my friends succumbed and bought a Dell (chills run down my spine...) Anyhow that being said I thought that the initial article was actually informative, if it only opened my eyes to the bigger marketing game it accomplished allot!

Really, performance doesn't sell products (except to those who actually take the time to understand the hardware...) marketing does. Intel proved this during last year with the p4 (Flame away fan boys) but really I admit that Intel are at the top of the technological heap right now. AMD has to strengthen its marketing if they are to ever truly compete, have you ever seen an AMD commercial? I haven’t. Where are the AMD green men? Where is the catchy “AMD within” slogan… ok maybe I’m taking this a bit far… or maybe not? I don’t like all of Intel’s ads but you do remember them, that is what ads are meant to do, get a product on the mind of people, this is something that Intel does very well and they do deserve credit for it. Performance isn’t worth anything if you can’t sell your product, advertising sells.

AMD does maintain a sort of “spoilt child” attitude when it comes to their CPUs, ignoring some basic concerns expecting there loyal fan base to bail them out. What do I mean??? Well why does Thoroughbred still have a 266 fsb? Why doesn’t AMD include a heatspreader in the design of thoroughbred when DIY’ers crush multiple cores? AMD no OEMs are using your CPUs, only us small time resellers and guys at home building a system for the first time are! Why are you making it difficult for us? AMD stubbornly expects CPU cooler manufacturers to design better heat sinks for thoroughbred, ones with nice shiny copper bottoms… thank you AMD, thank you for forcing the stagnant cooler industry to advance… thank you for making the cost of cooling for your CPUs increase, hell your CPUs are so cheap we have extra cash lying around right?

Listen, I love my xp 1800+, I love that I got it for under 100$, I love AMD for this great price/performance ratio on this CPU but tweakers and overclockers are who support you yet you make CPUs that are becoming very difficult/expensive to overclock… thanks AMD.

My next CPU is going to be a Hammer… We never learn do we?
July 16, 2002 4:58:54 AM

<b>MY</b> silicon and wires are better than <b>YOUR</b> silicon and wires!!!! so there! *rasberry*

LoL


Proud owner of the <b>Beige Beast</b> :lol: 
July 16, 2002 5:04:28 AM

Quote:
And texas, about AMD's current position, if they want to become and bigger company, and to earn more profits, and gain more support and appreciation, they're going to have to find a way to advertise, and improve the quality, reliability, and stability of their CPU's, or else, Hammer's effect won't be any greater then the Athlon's effect was when it was released.


Dark... lets not turn this into more of a flame war than it already is. AMDs quality, reliability and stability has always been fine for me. Remarks like yours are broad generalizations and are not productive.
AND, i REALLY hope Hammer's effect is just like Athlon's. If you recall, the Athlon is what put AMD on the map. It is their best selling processor ever. Its the one that spanked the P3 and early P4s. But im sure you knew that..

Benchmarks are like sex, everybody loves doing it, everybody thinks they are good at it.
July 16, 2002 5:26:13 AM

Just for the record; I've seen only one AMD commercial ever. It was about engaging a high-speed train's breaks, that was heading towards a man, with an AMD powered pc(yay!) or an intel(bah!) powered pc. The guy chose the intel, and while he was waiting for the operation to complete, the train crashed into him. That was probably about a year ago. So yeah, I saw an AMD commerical...oh yeah, I know that Alienware ships AMD's with their rigs.
July 16, 2002 5:32:22 AM

Quote:
One of the first things I learned in Business 101 just dont point out problems, find solutions.
If Mr. Ohmid thinks shedding fanboys will help in any way. I would disagree. I still maintain they have little impact on the the bottom line. I also doubt Intel uses any info from the web to sell its products (as alluded to in his second article).
The articles were opinion pieces, fine. But on day 2 of Business 101 I learned it helps to support your opinions with hard facts. Leave a bread crumb trail of facts to your final conclusion/opinion. It makes it easier to swallow that way.
So he thinks AMD's marketing strategy stinks? Thats not a newsflash. My opinion is AMD doesnt advertise for two reasons:
a. they cant meet demand anyway.
b. they cant afford an advertising war with Intel. For every tv spot/ad/billboard AMD puts up. Intel can put up 20. So why bother? Intel can saturate, AMD can only sprinkle. Which is the way it is now. So why spend $200 million to be in an Ad war and be in the same position when the war is over?
Oh well, whatever.

<b>You said it Tex!!!</b>




<font color=green>"No Thoroughbred for you! Come back, 2 months."</font color=green>
July 16, 2002 6:13:49 AM

Quote:
more reliable, more stable, run cooler, and are more well known than AMD's CPU's


No, no, not before northwood, and yes.


Which company is on top dosent matter, but the stability and reliability fud has got to stop!

:wink: The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark :wink:
July 16, 2002 6:16:41 AM

Quote:
One of the first things I learned in Business 101 just dont point out problems, find solutions.
If Mr. Ohmid thinks shedding fanboys will help in any way. I would disagree. I still maintain they have little impact on the the bottom line. I also doubt Intel uses any info from the web to sell its products (as alluded to in his second article).
The articles were opinion pieces, fine. But on day 2 of Business 101 I learned it helps to support your opinions with hard facts. Leave a bread crumb trail of facts to your final conclusion/opinion. It makes it easier to swallow that way.
So he thinks AMD's marketing strategy stinks? Thats not a newsflash. My opinion is AMD doesnt advertise for two reasons:
a. they cant meet demand anyway.
b. they cant afford an advertising war with Intel. For every tv spot/ad/billboard AMD puts up. Intel can put up 20. So why bother? Intel can saturate, AMD can only sprinkle. Which is the way it is now. So why spend $200 million to be in an Ad war and be in the same position when the war is over?
Oh well, whatever.



PS: this is the most valid comment in the entire thread.

:wink: The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark :wink:
July 16, 2002 7:35:24 AM

man, AMD sure takes along time to die.

"<b>AMD/VIA!</b>...you are <i>still</i> the weakest link, good bye!"
July 16, 2002 9:45:26 AM

I can not agree about AMD being unstable in the early 90's because in the past I had a a AMD based 386, 486, K6-2 and I have only had one Intel Pentium chip the mmx 166mhz. Back too my point about AMD being unstable well from all the AMD CPUs I have owned I really havent had any problems with them, nothing more than with the Intel I had... I tell you why one reason I don't like Intel is because I believe they had created a lot of the histeria about AMD being unstable.

If you think I am just a blind fanboy well why does my dad who audits international computer companies tell me people from Intel attitude to Amd is always somthing like "AMD is no good they have probelms, too unstable... etc".

To this day I believe Intel still create bullshit rumours about AMD CPU's.

I think it's just silly to go histerical over AMD just because they don't have the fastest CPU out there at the moment, I would have expected Intel to take the performance crown back, after all they have alot more resources!

Last thing I will say is, people seem to forget the positives of AMD like the fact that some computer package companies out there do sell AMD equipped CPU's!
July 16, 2002 1:32:48 PM

In reply to:
"Well, according to AMD's revenue, and the overall state of the company, they don't. AMD still doesn't have any tier 1 support, and the average joe still doesn't even know who AMD is. And marketing is just as important as the actual CPU itself. What good is a god-like CPU if you don't tell everyone about it? If AMD did know what ther were doing, then their CPU's would be a popular choice in the server and business markets. Is that a reality? No. Those markets are currently "ruled" by Xeons, P4, and P3's. "

Thing is, Intel spend loads of money on ad's and get back the revenue for it. Afaik none of their ads say "look here, see how fast our CPU's are", they just make Intel a house hold brand name. Every one knows Intel makes computers ( average joe ;)  ), and since they pile on loads of money, a lot of people will buy Intel any day, rather than go for AMD. AMD is still stuck with a stigma of it's pre-athlon line, "K6 CPU's were slower/ hotter/ easier to break than Pentium chips", coupled with recent troubles of heat sinks breaking Athlon core's and melting core's without coolers, you can understand why Intel gives people faith. Intel, thanks to years of ad's, are a company known for reliability, which at the end of the day sells PC's.
It seems pretty clear to me, that AMD have let a huge marketing oppurtunity slip by, when it wasn't Intel but AMD reaching 1 Ghz. If AMD had piled on money for ad campaigns stating they were 1st to 1 Ghz and were 1st to have a stable (!) 1 Ghz part au contrair to Intel, AMD's market share would've been higher. Of course, talking in hind sight is easy :) 

2 years later, AMD can't start a major ad campaign, because they need something to stand out over the P4, not only in performance (rating) but also in price and reliability.
July 16, 2002 3:13:56 PM

The issue back in the late '80s and early '90s was there were "clone" PCs, that didn't nessessarily have anything to do with AMD, that were unable to run some PC programs due to various reasons.

AMD is technicaly an Intel "clone", hense the related stigma. Not always fair, but that's how it happens.

Also, AMD systems did have stability issues early on, but not all did. It was not nessessarily AMD's fault either, but they did earn the reputation.

I'm not saying I agree with how it happened, I'm just stating how I see how AMD's Rep is what it is in the general comunity right now.

English is phun.
July 16, 2002 3:28:28 PM

Quote:
<font color=orange>In reply to:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the first things I learned in Business 101 just dont point out problems, find solutions.
If Mr. Ohmid thinks shedding fanboys will help in any way. I would disagree. I still maintain they have little impact on the the bottom line. I also doubt Intel uses any info from the web to sell its products (as alluded to in his second article).
The articles were opinion pieces, fine. But on day 2 of Business 101 I learned it helps to support your opinions with hard facts. Leave a bread crumb trail of facts to your final conclusion/opinion. It makes it easier to swallow that way.
So he thinks AMD's marketing strategy stinks? Thats not a newsflash. My opinion is AMD doesnt advertise for two reasons:
a. they cant meet demand anyway.
b. they cant afford an advertising war with Intel. For every tv spot/ad/billboard AMD puts up. Intel can put up 20. So why bother? Intel can saturate, AMD can only sprinkle. Which is the way it is now. So why spend $200 million to be in an Ad war and be in the same position when the war is over?
Oh well, whatever.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------</font color=orange>



<font color=red>PS: this is the most valid comment in the entire thread.</font color=red>

I've got to disagree with you, Matisaro. While texas_techie started out with something good, he finished with a pretty piss-poor leap in logic.

To use his own advice, I will point out problems <i>and</i> find solutions:

Problem 1) Business 101 dictates that if a customer has never heard of a product, they will not purchase said product.

Solution 1) Advertise. Who cares about an 'advertisement war'? The simple fact is, Joe Blow down the street doesn't even recognize the name AMD. He can't even think about buying one if he doesn't even know they exist. So what if AMD 'loses' an 'advertisement war'? At least if they advertise, customers will know what their product is.

Problem 2) AMD's CPUs no longer hold the performance crown, so AMD has nothing to advertise.

Solution 2) Target AXPs at Celerons. For less than the cost of a 1.7GHz Wilty (Willamatte Celeron) you can get an AXP 1800+. An awful lot of major OEM systems sold to SOHO users are 'budget' Celeron-based systems anyway, so even just targetting this section of the market, AMD could make a profound demand for their CPUs.

Problem 3) AMD can't produce enough CPUs to satisfy major OEM contracts or the rise in demand if they were to advertise.

Solution 3) AMD just flat out needs to spend the money on increasing production. More FAB space is required. More workers need to be hired. Sure, it might take them into the red for a while, but in the long run, they can't make much money if they can't provide the product to sell. AMD is already working on this solution in limited ways. (Join FAB ventures and tossing out Duron production which is both outdated and makes very little money for them anyway.) However, AMD needs to concentrate even more on this. You don't get anywhere by always playing it safe.

So in conclusion, Business 101 is quite clear:
Step 1) Develop the product.
Step 2) Advertise the product to generate a demand for it. Step 3) Produce enough supply to meet that demand.
Step 4) Use profit gained from above steps to start over from Step 1 with a new product or product improvement.

It's a very simple model. Yet AMD has almost completely ignored it. Whoever is calling the shots over there, they obviously never paid attention in Business 101. (That is, if they even took Business 101.)

<A HREF="http://www.nuklearpower.com/comic/171.htm" target="_new">The corpse you find may be your own.</A> - Black Mage
July 16, 2002 3:48:22 PM

Quote:
The people I work under are EXTREMELY well informed.

In a big company, like where I work, it's not my Boss, or even his Boss, who ultimately decides what we buy. It's the corperate execs who aren't as well informed. It's the purchasing department too. My boss once told me that it's corperate suicide for him to actualy order non-intel computer (Barring Macs). It was because of their reputation that the higher up execs knew of.

Quote:
I just feel that the best way for AMD to put out a good image is to make a good product - one that matches Intel in performance, stability, reliability, and cost-effectiveness.

I'm not dissagreeing that this is a good stratergy, however, up until the P4 moved to the 533 FSB, wasn't that exactly where AMD was? In fact, didn't their Athlon XP CPUs actualy top the P4 till after the release of the NW core and the 2.4 GHZ? Aren't current AMD platforms stable, priced reasonably, and high performing? I believe they are. It hasn't brought AMD into the limelite though.

Quote:
Did that image change because of advertising and marketing?

Since the release of the first Pentium, Intel has had 3 big "Blunders". The Pentium division error (The only one I know of that hit the National TV news), the I820 chipset, and the P3 1.13 CPU. Yet Intel has a stellar reputation for reliability, stability, and speed.

Meanwhile, AMD has been pretty good over that time frame. Via chipsets caused some stability issues, but beyond that, they haven't had any major public blunders that I know of.

Intel has a huge advertizing campaign. AMD has little to know advertizing. I think that has a major part in this.

Quote:
Is it that there's too much demand for AMD to respond to, or is it that there isn't enough demand....

I don't know the exact numbers, but Dell wanted a very large volume of CPUs, and AMD could not fill the volume that Dell wanted in the time frame that they wanted. It may have been due to them being sold elsewhere, or it simply could be that Dell required some relitively outlandish number compaired to what AMD could spit out. AMD may not have wanted to sacrifice some of the smaller resellers to fill Dell's orders. I don't know the exact details.

It's a compromise though. Dell likely would heve been willing to bend slightly on their requirements if people were beating down their door asking for AMD. AMD, at the same time, needs to be able to produce more CPUs to be able to meet the needs of the Dells of the world.

So, while needing to increase production and needing to increase need seem like issues that shouldn't both need to be addressed, they both have a barring in this situation.

AMD needs more that simply a quality product to fix what ails them. Look at Beta, it was a superior and quality product, but VHS still won out.

You bring up some great points, keep it up.

English is phun.
July 16, 2002 4:06:22 PM

Quote:
The issue back in the late '80s and early '90s was there were "clone" PCs, that didn't nessessarily have anything to do with AMD, that were unable to run some PC programs due to various reasons.

Some of those clones were AMD CPUs though, and I've personally seen K6-based systems that were less than 100% compatible.

Quote:
Also, AMD systems did have stability issues early on, but not all did. It was not nessessarily AMD's fault either, but they did earn the reputation.

It's entirely fair though. AMD left a great many users stuck clinging to crappy motherboard chipset companies like VIA. Had AMD either stuck with pin-compatible replacements for Intel chips, or concentrated on the entire system, their reputation would have been much better. Oh sure, AMD makes their own chipsets, but there was a time when even finding an AMD chipset took a <i>lot</i> of effort, and even then was more expensive. AMD simply allowed companies like VIA to drag both of their names through the mud, so yes, it was at least partly AMD's fault for having a lack of vision in seeing the whole picture. You can't just make a good CPU and then depend on a crappy chipset company like VIA. (At least, not if you don't want a bad reputation.)

Quote:
I'm not saying I agree with how it happened, I'm just stating how I see how AMD's Rep is what it is in the general comunity right now.

AMD's reputation is what it is because AMD has always had a very narrow and short-sighted vision. Their CPU department concentrated very heavily on a good CPU. And it was a good CPU. It still is. However, they put very little into ensuring that this good CPU had a good system to go into. They put very little into ensuring that the general public even knew that their good CPU existed. They put very little into ensuring that they had the production capacity to fill demands for this good CPU.

AMD has just always assumed (hoped?) that their good CPU would go into good systems. That these good systems would generate happy fanboys. That these happy fanboys would sing AMD's praises to the world. That these praises would generate interest in the general public. That this interest in the general public would generate interest in the corporate sectors. That all of this interest would generate sales. That all of these sales would generate the profit needed to improve production to make more sales to make more money, ad infinitum.

In a more perfect world, AMD's plan might have even worked. In this world though, AMD's stability and performance were occasionally (but often enough to be noticed) drug down by bad 3rd party chipset developers. This generated bad word-of-mouth in corporate sectors. The fanboys completely failed to reach the general public, prefering to keep their knowledge mostly-to-only in high-tech communities where everyone already knew anyway and where the general laymon would never dare tread. Then Intel actually competed on price, and AMD's profits were lowered even more. They never obtained that precious money to increse production or to put serious effort into advertising. And now they're struggling not to drown in their own cesspool of inadiquate vision.

Could I personally have done better myself? Who knows. I won't say that I could or couldn't have. I'd have done a few things differently, that's for sure. Would they have worked any better though? Beats me.

All I can say with certainty is that any problems AMD has right now are entirely their own fault. They came into the CPU race with one and only one plan: Make a good CPU. Well, they did it. Congrats. Now though, they are suffering for their lack of seeing the whole picture: That a good CPU isn't enough on its own. You need advertisement to reach the masses, and production to fill the demand generated by advertisement and by wining and dining major OEMs into achieving contracts.

The CPU industry isn't solely driven by technology. It is half technology and half schmoozing. Intel's schmoozing kept them alive while their technology was crap. They struggled, but they survived. AMD's technology is barely keeping their processor devision alive while their schoozing in crap.

Until AMD learns to play the marketting game, it'll get no better. They're paying for their lack of vision, and so in the end, they have no one but themselves to blame for where they are today. They deserve every last bit of their reputation, both the good and the bad.

And there is still one simple (though expensive) tool which can save their reputation: ADVERTISING. Consumers don't have a freaking clue why GAP jeans are so special. They just see people dancing to cool music on TV, and learn to relate that good-vibe feeling to GAP jeans. If AMD actually put effort, money, and time into spreading their own good-vibe advertisements, Joe Blow would come to love them, for no other reason than because the glowing box told him 'AMD = good'. And once Joe Blow is convinced, it won't be long before Corporate Jane starts to think that maybe there's something to Joe Blow's opinions. Before long, AMD becomes more and more common in computer shops as AMD convinces more and more OEMs to carry their product because customers actually express a desire for it. And violla, AMD is back on track to being competition.

I know, this post has been one long ramble. The simple point is though, if AMD advertized and increased production, even if they had to go into the red to do it, they'd make up that money in the next year (or two at most) and from then on be in a far better position to compete.

If AMD continues with their current strategy, the only reason they'll even still be in business in the future is if Intel decides to keep them around so that not everyone remains convinced that Intel is another Microsoft.

<A HREF="http://www.nuklearpower.com/comic/171.htm" target="_new">The corpse you find may be your own.</A> - Black Mage
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