Sign in with
Sign up | Sign in
Your question

I don't want to start another war... but...

Last response: in CPUs
Share
July 19, 2002 4:36:50 PM

I'm looking to buy a high performance computer, but one that is a good value. I have a choice to go with either a athlon xp 2200 or a pentium 4 2533. I do not plan to overclock my computer. Which is better for the money (and for upgradability in the future...I will be using a 1066 RDRAM MoBo if I get the intel, or a KT333 MoBo if I get the amd). I also was wondering what a good vendor would be for a computer like this. I have been looking at ABS computers and ibuypower.com, but I'm not too sure about them. Thanks for your feedback

More about : start war

July 19, 2002 4:45:25 PM

There will probably other opinions about this, but you'd be better off turning to the Athlon for better price/performance value.

<font color=red>Floppy disk?!? What the heck's a floppy disk?!?</font color=red>
July 19, 2002 4:55:22 PM

what about for upgradability...like getting a faster processor a few years from now (might be a dumb question)?
Related resources
July 19, 2002 5:03:21 PM

I would go with the intel and a 2.26 and you can upgrade it later. That will save you $300-400

<font color=red>God</font color=red> <font color=white>bless</font color=white> <font color=blue>the</font color=blue> <font color=red>U</font color=red><font color=white>S</font color=white><font color=blue>A</font color=blue>
July 19, 2002 5:16:40 PM

In a FEW YEARS from now, you'll have to upgrade the WHOLE thing.
Intel has a history of messing with people when upgrading CPUs. Intel requires a new platform almost everytime a new processor comes along. Maybe this time it'll be different. It's true that the Athlon architecture has almost reached its limits, but there is still some juice left to squeeze out of it waiting for the Hammer core.
At the end, it all comes down to the price you are willing to pay. If an AMD platform is cheaper now (and has been for quite some time), chances are it'll still be once you decide to upgrade. But that's anyone's call. Who knows what the future holds!
That's just my opinion.

<font color=red>Floppy disk?!? What the heck's a floppy disk?!?</font color=red>
July 19, 2002 5:25:08 PM

I don't know about buddry here but in my part of the world, an Athlon platform (cpu, mobo, RAM) is about 45 % cheaper than a P4 platform. For the spec you mentionned that is. A 2.26Mhz P4 would be a lot cheaper, but still more expensive.

<font color=red>Floppy disk?!? What the heck's a floppy disk?!?</font color=red><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Oracle on 07/19/02 01:28 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
July 19, 2002 5:34:10 PM

Seeing that you're saying you'd go for either of the two, I would go for the AMD system simply because I like to support them. If you have the money though, having the p4 system by your side would definitely be sweet.

It looks like you're going for a prebuilt system. Although Alienware adds a little premium, they let you customize just about everything that goes into your system. They also have very nice looking setups IMO.

Going with a tweaked out XP 2200+ system is half the cost of a similarly equipped 2.53 setup at alienware, btw. It's up to you if it's worth the extra performance - which looks somewhere around 25-35% going by Tom's benchmarks. If you can afford it, by all means go ahead and make me jealous...
July 19, 2002 5:56:59 PM

If you want the best performing system, than you would go w/ Intel. Also, I dont see or hear of Intel changing sockets or FSB speeds within a year or so on the P4/future celeron line. I'd say you can get at least a 3.4ghz for that platform. ....if not more, which is what I think...+4ghz

This sig runs too hot.
July 19, 2002 6:30:19 PM

Not to rain on your parade but he stated VALUE. The price on the 2.53GHZ is NOT VALUE at all. He's better off with a twice less pricey CPU, and take the money saved on a better video card or multimedia solution, which would make it all worth it.

Also I don't see why people nowadays wanna switch processors so closely, even AMD's Socket A can't do this if someone wants a new CPU after years of running. And if they wanted to switch CPUs each few months, not only is it not worth it, but the performance increase isn't as well. I say people shouldn't think that way, instead do major upgrades involving mobo and RAM when they want a new CPU, as well as CPU being a new core than theirs. This is where the performance increase is worth it.

--
:smile: Intel and AMD sitting under a tree, P-R-O-C-E-S-S-I-N-G! :smile:
July 19, 2002 7:03:55 PM

He also stated the 2.53 as a possibility, and he also mentioned Upgradeability...So my parade is still dry.....As for upgrading, it's part of a systems value, that's why he mentioned it. Buying a new Mobo and ram along w/ your new proc isnt exactly cheap. Coming from a 1.6ghz, and going to a 2.8ghz(or beyond) is a nice upgrade....Even 500-800mhz (2.53-3.2)or so is a nice upgrade. Dont you agree? *drip*

This sig runs too hot.
July 19, 2002 7:10:00 PM

If you've decided to spent enough money, grab the P4 system. Not only because it's faster now, but also because of the more sure and reliable plans of Intel to stick on this kind of architecture. I don't say AMD will throw away the sock A after a year or so, but.... who knows?

<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Dinski on 07/19/02 03:16 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
July 19, 2002 7:45:04 PM

"It's up to you if it's worth the extra performance - which looks somewhere around 25-35% going by Tom's benchmarks."

If you are looking at Tom's benchmarks yes. Look at some other sites benchmarks too, because relying on only one source is just stupidity. Read as much as possible from various sources and it will give you the best idea of what you want to buy.

Here are two other sites to start with:

http://www.aceshardware.com/read.jsp?id=45000368
http://www.anandtech.com/cpu/showdoc.html?i=1635&p=1

You can probably find more useful information here:

www.tech-report.com
www.xbitlabs.com
www.tech-report.com
www.vanshardware.com
www.amdzone.com
www.intelzone.com
www.transmetazone.com
www.amd.com
www.intel.com
www.pricewatch.com
www.amdmb.com
www.theinquirer.com

Seek and you will find...

/* The more you know, the more you realize how little you know */
July 19, 2002 8:10:22 PM

If possible, it is, but for the price, hardly worth.
I would never and will always consider those who pay 1050$ CDN for a friggin chip that fits in your palm so easily, idiots. There is no justifications to pay this much, it is 1000$ for a damn chip almost twice smaller than a floppy in surface.
Also, new speeds also have higher FSBs, since the 2.4, some mobos may or may not work well, and the P4 being a huge memory hog, would need faster memory as well, again something which may or not be supported on the current mobo. Upgrading CPUs while Intel still maintains the Socket 478, will not always be that effective, and I stated why.

In contrast, the Athlon, going from a 1.2 Tbird to a XP2200, will NOT require better RAM, nor higher FSB because it is not bandwidth intensive, which in turn allows the mobo to stay and still get better value relative to the new P4 CPU upgrade's repercussions.

--
:smile: Intel and AMD sitting under a tree, P-R-O-C-E-S-S-I-N-G! :smile:
July 19, 2002 8:49:59 PM

"There is no justifications to pay this much, it is 1000$ for a damn chip almost twice smaller than a floppy in surface."

Diamonds can sometimes cost tens of thousands of dollars. Idiots! It's even smaller than a CPU! Who would pay for that!?
I don't get your size to dollar argument. P4 has a larger die, so that's why it should be more money than the AXP?

If you build a machine thinkin you will upgrade the CPU one day, you would make sure the FSB can go to higher speeds. TH7, is it? By Abit......Had 533 support before the 533 was released. Do you think 1.6a to 2.8b is a good upgrade? You talking about new memory, new Mobos w. FSB increases.....that doesnt sound "value" to me. Why not just drop a new chip in there and get some more power a year down the road? Intel scaled the 400FSB up to 2.4. 533 started at 2.26. Intel leaves some room for upgrade.

This sig runs too hot.
July 19, 2002 9:21:59 PM

Buy what you can comfortably afford, and don't think about upgradability. Computers that I bought 18 months ago (both Intel and AMD) are no longer practical to upgrade.

Whatever you buy today will not be worthwhile upgrading in two years.

<font color=blue>This is a Forum, not a playground. Treat it with Respect.</font color=blue>
July 19, 2002 9:52:53 PM

Item Description Quantity Price

Enermax, FS-710. Beige/White 330Watts Server Tower Case (Item#ABS11124002) 1 Standard

Enermax EG365P-VE (FM) 350W Power Supply for AMD K7 & Pentium 4 (Item#ABS17103408) 1 Standard

Asus VIA A7V333 Chipset ATX Motherboard w/ RAID Retail Boxed (Item#ABS13131412) 1 Standard

AMD Athlon XP 2200+/266 FSB 256K Processor (Item#ABS19103332) 1 Standard

Dynatron DC1206BM-L615 High-End Cooler w/ 5300 RPM Fan (Support Upto 2100+) (Item#ABS35114005) 1 Standard

DDRAM 512MB 32MX8 PC-2700C2PT CORSAIR% With Platinum - Silver Heat Spreader OEM (Item#ABS20145412) 1 Standard

IBM 40GB 7200RPM Hard Drive (Item#ABS22145018) 1 Standard

IBM 40GB 7200RPM Hard Drive (Item#ABS22145018) 1 Standard

Leadtek NVIDIA Geforce4 TI4600 128MB 128Bits with TV & DVD out Video Card (Item#ABS14122142) 1 Standard

Pioneer Internal EIDE 16X DVD ROM Drive (40X CD-ROM Speed) (Item#ABS27129118) 1 Standard

Lite On 40X12X48 RTL40125S CD-RW Drive (Item#ABS27106177) 1 $-54

Samsung 955DF 19" (White) CRT Monitor (Item#ABS24001005) 1 Standard

Sound Blaster Audigy Xgamer Sound Card (Item#ABS29102150) 1 Standard

Logitech THX Certified Z560 4.1 4 Speakers & 1 Subwoofer System (Item#ABS36121101) 1 $-232

none Communication Cards 1 $-41

3COM 905CX-TXNM PCI 10/100 Network Card (Item#ABS33105117) 1 Standard

Mitsumi 1.44MB Floppy Drive (Item#ABS21103104) 1 Standard

Microsoft 114 keys (10 Internet Hot Keys) Internet Keyboard (Item#ABS23109102) 1 Standard

Microsoft Intelli Optical Mouse (Item#ABS26105115) 1 Standard

Multimedia Microphone with Base (Item#ABS36111104) 1 $0
ABS Mouse Pad 8" X 9" (Item#ABS17114103) 1 $0

Microsoft Windows XP Home Edition OEM (Item#ABS37110003) 1 Standard

Corel Office WordPerfect 2002: WordPerfect 10, Quattro Pro 10, Presentations Paradox 10 1 $0

Price with Option(s): $1951

Whaddya think?
July 19, 2002 10:18:30 PM

Why'd you throw 2 drives? You want RAID?
Just for fun, try the combination with the P4 2.53GHZ system, see the real price then! :tongue:

--
:smile: Intel and AMD sitting under a tree, P-R-O-C-E-S-S-I-N-G! :smile:
July 19, 2002 10:21:54 PM

I was saying that expression targetting ANY desktop CPU. Mind you, I would not pay as well for a 1000$ Athlon chip EVER. Go ahead, would you pay that?

As for the last sentence you said, that was AMD for 2 years, it just begun now for Intel. And it is unsure whether or not Prescott will stay at the same socket. I personally have doubts. Just check the total quote the guy has now, compare it with a P4 2.53GHZ system instead, it is clear he just saved tons. That saved money can be saved then for future upgrades which will help him upgrade more easily as the money was there previously. The Intel system WON'T do that, it will obviously cost more and more later on.

And to close my statement and firmly apply it, I will have to borrow Matisaro's quote (hope ya don't mind!) which still applies and is true:
If you overclock, P4. If you don't, AMD. PERIOD.
Those who defy that usually:
1)Are fanboys
2)Are really scared to try the opposite
3)Don't care about wasting money, which for my personal ethical reasons, I have no respect for.

--
:smile: Intel and AMD sitting under a tree, P-R-O-C-E-S-S-I-N-G! :smile: <P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Eden on 07/19/02 06:53 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
July 19, 2002 11:34:34 PM

the raid comes standard. what do you think about getting an extra 512 mB ddr ram (total 1024mb) for 224$? Will I ever need that much?
July 20, 2002 5:10:07 AM

I seriously doubt it. 512MB RAM in WinXP is the sweet spot, and anything over without real reasons such as massive graphics editing or whatever uses over 512MB mem, will NOT result in any difference in performance. If you had gotten 256 then switched to 512MB, trust me, there is a HUGE difference in overall system performance.

Also, you can get off without the Ti4600, save money, get the Ti4200, and overclock it safely to Ti4400 or above levels, more value.

--
:smile: Intel and AMD sitting under a tree, P-R-O-C-E-S-S-I-N-G! :smile:
July 20, 2002 6:09:04 AM

I have to agree with Eden in that 512 is really all that is necessary. There are exceptions and graphics editing is one of them. I also agree that going with the Athlon will get you way better value for the money. As for the upgradability. Intel never keeps the same platform long enough for it to be a good upgrade path. Amd is about to change from socket A to 2 new sockets one for the mainstream Athlon and another for the Opteron with more pins. So right now either way is not really good for upgrading. One more thing the Logitech Z560 the price you have in your post is way too high. When I bought mine about 4 months ago they were $135 US I'm assuming you are going in US prices based on the rest of the prices. I did get the speakers when they were 33% off but heck you should be able to get them for at least a little below $200 US.
July 20, 2002 4:51:25 PM

This is true and the main reason why I`m going the Athlon route for now. Every time a new Intel chip comes out, a new chipset comes with it. Seems like they like to keep the techies on their toes and their expences up. I`m not against paying for technology, but when it comes to being ripped off, well Intel is king.



Your new hardware is out-of-date
July 20, 2002 7:18:43 PM

I would advice you to change these items:


<b> Motherboard : </b>

Get Epox EP-K3A+ (KT333 chipset) istead of ASUS A7V333. ASUS A7V33 is factory overclocked to 135 (270) Mhz FSB and you can't set the original FSB 133 (266) Mhz. Epox mobo is the fastest Athlon mobo and stability is good (heard).


<b> Hard Disk: </b>

You can buy two Maxtor Diamond Max Plus D740X (7200 rpm, ATA-133, 40 GB) hard disks instead of two IBM 7200 rpm, ATA-100 hard drive. Maxtor drives can utilize KT333 chipset's ATA-133 feature. They are very good and reliable. I am personally using a D740X, 40 GB drive.


<b> Monitor and Graphics card : </b>

Spend few extra bucks on monitor. Samsung monitors are good monitors only for their value. ViewSonic's professional series monitors are very good. I recommend you to get a ViewSonic P95f (19") monitor. It worths spending the extra money on this monitor over a Samsung monitor. You can save your money by buying a GeForce4 Ti4400 card instead of GeForce4 Ti4600. As Ti4600 is well expensive than Ti4400, it is nothing special in it's performanceover Ti4400.


<b> Speaker: </b>

You can buy Altec Lansing 641 speakers (4:1 w/ subwoofer) instead of Logitech. It's very good for gaming and cheaper. And of course, Altec Lansing name stands for quality. Altec Lansing's speakers are usually the best in the speaker market.


If you made the following changes, your total system cost would not change, but you can simply own a better system.
July 21, 2002 3:39:27 AM

It's true the 8K3A is a very nice KT333 mobo. Most use it to OC, and as the previous 8KHA+, its performance has been what made Epox a powerful enthusiast board. The only gripe is the lack of the thermal shut-off feature. They will have one for sure in their next mobo, as is the new specification by AMD.

I also would go for the D740X. I don't own one YET, but I do plan to, as their price for what they offer, is very very nice. For 139$ CDN, I get future ATA133, which even if it does not use that bandwidth, there will be a burst, which still improves performance. This and its latency, makes it a drive I gotta get. Maxtor's also well known in the drive market and reputable.

Monitor wise, I can agree with you as well, however for 17" value and quality, the 753DF 17" monitor IS the 17" monitor of choice, IMO. I cannot say how many times I have seen places using it, and I never usually find one monitor in many areas! I mean that I never see other than one person using one model monitor! This one, is used by 2 people I know, and an entire bank, which is amazing. Its price sets it apart at 250$ CDN, anti-glare and the crisp image quality provided by that, makes it even better.

--
:smile: Intel and AMD sitting under a tree, P-R-O-C-E-S-S-I-N-G! :smile:
July 21, 2002 6:43:18 AM

Ok the altec speakers are good too or so I hear but try telling that to me when I got my z560s cranked up. You won't be able to hear yourself speaking ;) 
July 21, 2002 11:14:14 PM

I've configured a comparable pentium 4 system. I searched around...it seems like the Z560 speakers are a good deal to me. Unfortunately the Asus A7V333 is the only mobo available on this prebuilt. Will the factory overclocking prove to be a problem (like damaging components on the computer)? Viewsonic monitor is not available...I could possible buy separately. My final question is this: I have to purchase and receive my computer before August 16. Are there any new processors coming out between now and that time that might be able to push the price of my system lower?

Here is the P4 system:


Item Description Quantity Price

Kingwin All Aluminum Mid-Tower Case KT-436 Blue with 3 Windows (Requires Power Supply) (Item#ABS11170005) 1 Standard
Enermax EG365P-VE (FM) 350W Power Supply for AMD K7 & Pentium 4 (Item#ABS17103408) 1 Standard
Gigabyte GA-8IHXP 533MHz FSB Socket 478 LAN ATA 133 RAID CT5880 Sound Motherboard (Item#ABS13128146) 1 $6
Intel Pentium 4 2.26GHz 512K Socket 478 533MHz Processor (Requires 533MHz Motherboard) (Item#ABS19116141) 1 $-115
Thermaltake P4 Volcano Socket 478 Heatsink & Fan (Item#ABS35106009) 1 Standard
Kingston 256MB 1066MHZ RAMBUS RAM (requires RAMBUS 1066MHz supported MB) (Item#ABS20152101) 2 pieces Standard
Western Digital 100GB 7200RPM Hard Drive - 8MB Cache Special Edition (Item#ABS22144108) 1 Standard
Leadtek NVIDIA Geforce4 TI4600 128MB 128Bits with TV & DVD out Video Card (Item#ABS14122142) 1 $126
Pioneer Internal EIDE 16X DVD ROM Drive (40X CD-ROM Speed) (Item#ABS27129118) 1 Standard
Lite On 40X12X48 RTL40125S CD-RW Drive (Item#ABS27106177) 1 Standard
Samsung 955DF 19" (White) CRT Monitor (Item#ABS24001005) 1 $226
Sound Blaster Audigy Xgamer Sound Card (Item#ABS29102150) 1 $24
Logitech THX Certified Z560 4.1 4 Speakers & 1 Subwoofer System (Item#ABS36121101) 1 $137
none Communication Cards 1 $-41
Linkskey LKF-5100 10/100 PCI Ethernet Card (Item#ABS33117108) 1 $-26
Mitsumi 1.44MB Floppy Drive (Item#ABS21103104) 1 Standard
Microsoft 114 keys (10 Internet Hot Keys) Internet Keyboard (Item#ABS23109102) 1 Standard
Microsoft Intelli Optical Mouse (Item#ABS26105115) 1 Standard
Multimedia Microphone with Base (Item#ABS36111104) 1 $0
ABS Mouse Pad 8" X 9" (Item#ABS17114103) 1 $0
Microsoft Windows XP Professional Edition OEM (Item#ABS37110004) 1 $49

Price with Option(s): $2108

thoughts?

<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by buttfacepooper on 07/21/02 08:49 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
July 22, 2002 1:09:37 AM

you might want to try to get one 256mb dimm instead of two 128 dimms

Oh aye its guaranteed, but I'm not too sure about the stuff inside. - Scotty
July 22, 2002 1:35:04 AM

Regarding upgradeability, both systems only have limited time periods.

AMD's socket 462 can take the duron, athlon, XP and tbred, and will also take the barton later this year before AMD moves on to the hammer chipset. So within a year or so socket 462 will be pretty much obselete, for high end systems anyway.

the P4 and socket 478 should fare a little better as its a newer socket design, however P4's are notoriously memory hungry, so upgrading in a years time or so to a 3-4Ghz cpu means you will still be limited to PC1066 rdram, and allround performance will suffer.

generally, upgradability is a myth and pretty limited.

Ego: Check
Rose hued glasses: Check
Fanboy Button: Check
CPU forum, here i come! :smile:
July 22, 2002 1:35:04 AM

it actually comes with two 256mb pieces for a total of 512. any help with anwering questions from my post above would be appreciated
July 22, 2002 2:21:55 AM

Prices always go down. But so far I have not heard of any major price drops, and the 2.6GHZ P4 has not been said to be out any soon. However I am suspicious of that 2.26GHZ price, I have not seen ANYWHERE a P4 at 115$. You must have made some error man, this ain't possible. The system would cost more for a 2.26GHZ anyways, and for the price the XP2200 has and its performance relative to the 2.26GHZ with RDRAM, it is still a better value. (The 2.26GHZ should be not more than 5% better in most apps, but does not destroy it)

In general, if you have properly configured an AMD system like this one, it would definitly cost less at almost 98% of the time, for the same kind of performance (XP2200 vs 2.26GHZ). I can guarantee this as well, as you have seen from the 2.26GHZ's price, which is actually higher than 2108$ as well!

--
:smile: Intel and AMD sitting under a tree, P-R-O-C-E-S-S-I-N-G! :smile: <P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Eden on 07/21/02 10:24 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
July 22, 2002 2:41:58 AM

actually, the -115$ is deceiving...that just means it is 115$ less than the 2.4 p4. I was just too lazy to remove all those prices and item numbers. The total price, however, is real.
July 22, 2002 3:23:29 AM

Well you've confused me for the Ti4600 pricing as well!
Hmm I would recommend you redo the AMD system, make sure it is XP2200, and make sure 512MB PC2100 or PC2700 RAM, as well as the new configuration components that you used from some recommendations. I am positive the price will balance out as well, but anyway we'll see by how much (FOR SURE, less than the P4)

--
:smile: Intel and AMD sitting under a tree, P-R-O-C-E-S-S-I-N-G! :smile:
!