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Possible Kobold adjustment for PCs?

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Anonymous
July 7, 2005 7:57:56 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

As is probably already known, Kobolds are rotten choices when it comes
to play balance. While they move quickly for small creatures, they have
rotten stat adjustments and their other abilities are essentially 'free'
for the other non-human races.

However, I don't want to change the underlying frailty of the Kobold
species. They're supposed to be sneaky, cautious, and very devious
because that's the only possible way they can survive. Most kobolds die
young, with an average adult lifespan of (if I'm remembering this
correctly) about 40 years. However, Kobolds have a biological lifespan
of over 120 years, and those that live to such an age tend to be very
formidable.

So.. I was thinking of a way that could give Kobolds a little boost to
make them a little more playable without actually changing their LA.
How about this:

Fast Study - Kobolds are notoriously quick learners. They have to be,
for their survival depends on it. Because of this, any Kobold whose
character level is greater than 1 counts their level as 1 less for the
purposes of determining experience rewards.

A few notes on the game effect of this:

This will have no effect on XP rewards for the Kobold character until
the party reaches 4th level AND they're fighting CR 3 foes. Over the
course of a campaign, the net result will mean that the Kobold character
will be gaining between 10-20% more experience than the rest of the
party. That will either help offset item creation costs or enable the
Kobold to level just slightly ahead of his peers. Not too great a
benefit, I would think.

What do you think, sirs?

More about : kobold adjustment pcs

Anonymous
July 7, 2005 7:57:57 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Raphael Russell wrote:
> As is probably already known, Kobolds are rotten choices when it comes
> to play balance. While they move quickly for small creatures, they have
> rotten stat adjustments and their other abilities are essentially 'free'
> for the other non-human races.
>
> However, I don't want to change the underlying frailty of the Kobold
> species. They're supposed to be sneaky, cautious, and very devious
> because that's the only possible way they can survive. Most kobolds die
> young, with an average adult lifespan of (if I'm remembering this
> correctly) about 40 years. However, Kobolds have a biological lifespan
> of over 120 years, and those that live to such an age tend to be very
> formidable.
>
> So.. I was thinking of a way that could give Kobolds a little boost to
> make them a little more playable without actually changing their LA.
> How about this:
>
> Fast Study - Kobolds are notoriously quick learners. They have to be,
> for their survival depends on it. Because of this, any Kobold whose
> character level is greater than 1 counts their level as 1 less for the
> purposes of determining experience rewards.
>
> A few notes on the game effect of this:
>
> This will have no effect on XP rewards for the Kobold character until
> the party reaches 4th level AND they're fighting CR 3 foes. Over the
> course of a campaign, the net result will mean that the Kobold character
> will be gaining between 10-20% more experience than the rest of the
> party. That will either help offset item creation costs or enable the
> Kobold to level just slightly ahead of his peers. Not too great a
> benefit, I would think.
>
> What do you think, sirs?

Hmmm. Interesting idea, but I don't think it's very balanced.

I did the math, and it looks like the higher the party gets in level,
the more the Kobold will pull ahead. He'll never be a full level ahead
of the party, but he'll get very close to being a "-1 LA race".

This would make Kobolds the most powerful late-game characters in the
game. Sure, they are weaker than other LA 0 races, but they're
certainly not weak enough to warrant an LA -0.7 (or so).

Don't forget that a 20% overall XP bonus is a full level's worth of
difference at ECL 10, and even a 10% bonus ends up being worth a full
level at ECL 20.

Laszlo
Anonymous
July 7, 2005 7:59:27 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Raphael Russell wrote:
> As is probably already known, Kobolds are rotten choices when it comes
> to play balance. While they move quickly for small creatures, they have
> rotten stat adjustments and their other abilities are essentially 'free'
> for the other non-human races.
>
> However, I don't want to change the underlying frailty of the Kobold
> species. They're supposed to be sneaky, cautious, and very devious
> because that's the only possible way they can survive. Most kobolds die
> young, with an average adult lifespan of (if I'm remembering this
> correctly) about 40 years. However, Kobolds have a biological lifespan
> of over 120 years, and those that live to such an age tend to be very
> formidable.
>
> So.. I was thinking of a way that could give Kobolds a little boost to
> make them a little more playable without actually changing their LA. How
> about this:
>
> Fast Study - Kobolds are notoriously quick learners. They have to be,
> for their survival depends on it. Because of this, any Kobold whose
> character level is greater than 1 counts their level as 1 less for the
> purposes of determining experience rewards.
>
> A few notes on the game effect of this:
>
> This will have no effect on XP rewards for the Kobold character until
> the party reaches 4th level AND they're fighting CR 3 foes. Over the
> course of a campaign, the net result will mean that the Kobold character
> will be gaining between 10-20% more experience than the rest of the
> party. That will either help offset item creation costs or enable the
> Kobold to level just slightly ahead of his peers. Not too great a
> benefit, I would think.
>
> What do you think, sirs?

One thing I forgot. Kobolds that are half this or template that should
not in any way benefit from this adjustment. Only pure blooded Kobolds
should receive this benefit.
Related resources
Anonymous
July 7, 2005 8:59:15 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Raphael Russell wrote:

> This will have no effect on XP rewards for the Kobold character until
> the party reaches 4th level AND they're fighting CR 3 foes. Over the
> course of a campaign, the net result will mean that the Kobold character
> will be gaining between 10-20% more experience than the rest of the
> party. That will either help offset item creation costs or enable the
> Kobold to level just slightly ahead of his peers. Not too great a
> benefit, I would think.
>
> What do you think, sirs?

I still think the 3.0 version of Kobolds works fine. I think 3.5 fixed
(and broke) what didn't need fixing in this case.

- Justisaur
Anonymous
July 7, 2005 9:23:31 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu wrote:
>
>
> Hmmm. Interesting idea, but I don't think it's very balanced.
>
> I did the math, and it looks like the higher the party gets in level,
> the more the Kobold will pull ahead. He'll never be a full level ahead
> of the party, but he'll get very close to being a "-1 LA race".
>
> This would make Kobolds the most powerful late-game characters in the
> game. Sure, they are weaker than other LA 0 races, but they're
> certainly not weak enough to warrant an LA -0.7 (or so).
>
> Don't forget that a 20% overall XP bonus is a full level's worth of
> difference at ECL 10, and even a 10% bonus ends up being worth a full
> level at ECL 20.
>
> Laszlo
>


There's a 5 % level difference between ECL 20 and ECL 19. In terms of
overall power, at that stage in the game is it really that big of a
jump? A +1 level jump at that late a stage in the game doesn't seem as
big as if it were at level 1 or even level 5.

Just how much is a full level worth considering the lumps a Kobold has
to work really hard at avoiding (and yet still adventure) on the way up?
Does a 20th level character have so much more power than a 19th
leveler that the ability to get there is much more than a fractional
level adjustment?
Anonymous
July 8, 2005 1:57:12 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Raphael Russell <aod1@cox.net> wrote in news:o Hgze.9884$up5.1923
@lakeread02:

> As is probably already known, Kobolds are rotten choices when it comes
> to play balance. While they move quickly for small creatures, they have
> rotten stat adjustments and their other abilities are essentially 'free'
> for the other non-human races.
>
> However, I don't want to change the underlying frailty of the Kobold
> species. They're supposed to be sneaky, cautious, and very devious
> because that's the only possible way they can survive. Most kobolds die
> young, with an average adult lifespan of (if I'm remembering this
> correctly) about 40 years. However, Kobolds have a biological lifespan
> of over 120 years, and those that live to such an age tend to be very
> formidable.
>
> So.. I was thinking of a way that could give Kobolds a little boost to
> make them a little more playable without actually changing their LA.

It's not that hard. Just reduce the Str penalty to -2. That way
they'll have a total of -2 Str, +2 Dex, -2 Con. That's a net
negative, but the +1 natural armor and 30 foot movement should
compensate.

-Ben Adams
Anonymous
July 8, 2005 3:19:02 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Raphael Russell <aod1@cox.net> wrote in
news:o Hgze.9884$up5.1923@lakeread02:

> So.. I was thinking of a way that could give Kobolds a little
> boost to make them a little more playable without actually
> changing their LA. How about this:

How about giving them the grovelling ability of the gully dwarf?
Anonymous
July 8, 2005 5:52:01 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Raphael Russell wrote:
> laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu wrote:
> >
> > Hmmm. Interesting idea, but I don't think it's very balanced.
> >
> > I did the math, and it looks like the higher the party gets in level,
> > the more the Kobold will pull ahead. He'll never be a full level ahead
> > of the party, but he'll get very close to being a "-1 LA race".
> >
> > This would make Kobolds the most powerful late-game characters in the
> > game. Sure, they are weaker than other LA 0 races, but they're
> > certainly not weak enough to warrant an LA -0.7 (or so).
> >
> > Don't forget that a 20% overall XP bonus is a full level's worth of
> > difference at ECL 10, and even a 10% bonus ends up being worth a full
> > level at ECL 20.
> >
> > Laszlo
>
> There's a 5 % level difference between ECL 20 and ECL 19. In terms of
> overall power, at that stage in the game is it really that big of a
> jump? A +1 level jump at that late a stage in the game doesn't seem as
> big as if it were at level 1 or even level 5.

I'm not sure I agree with that. The difference between level 8 and
level 9 spells is at least as great (percentage-wise) as the difference
between level 3 and level 4 spells, for instance.

For melee types, yes, the benefits taper off. But for spellcasters,
they don't. This is, incidentally, why there are very few practically
viable melee builds at ECL 20.

> Just how much is a full level worth considering the lumps a Kobold has
> to work really hard at avoiding (and yet still adventure) on the way up?
> Does a 20th level character have so much more power than a 19th
> leveler that the ability to get there is much more than a fractional
> level adjustment?

Again, depends on the class. For Sorcerers (a Kobold's favoured class),
the answer is yes. A level 20 sorcerer is significantly more powerful
than a level 19.

Laszlo
Anonymous
July 8, 2005 8:50:31 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On 7 Jul 2005 14:27:54 -0700, laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu wrote:

>
>
>Raphael Russell wrote:
>> As is probably already known, Kobolds are rotten choices when it comes
>> to play balance. While they move quickly for small creatures, they have
>> rotten stat adjustments and their other abilities are essentially 'free'
>> for the other non-human races.
>>
>> However, I don't want to change the underlying frailty of the Kobold
>> species. They're supposed to be sneaky, cautious, and very devious
>> because that's the only possible way they can survive. Most kobolds die
>> young, with an average adult lifespan of (if I'm remembering this
>> correctly) about 40 years. However, Kobolds have a biological lifespan
>> of over 120 years, and those that live to such an age tend to be very
>> formidable.
>>
>> So.. I was thinking of a way that could give Kobolds a little boost to
>> make them a little more playable without actually changing their LA.
>> How about this:
>>
>> Fast Study - Kobolds are notoriously quick learners. They have to be,
>> for their survival depends on it. Because of this, any Kobold whose
>> character level is greater than 1 counts their level as 1 less for the
>> purposes of determining experience rewards.
>>
>> A few notes on the game effect of this:
>>
>> This will have no effect on XP rewards for the Kobold character until
>> the party reaches 4th level AND they're fighting CR 3 foes. Over the
>> course of a campaign, the net result will mean that the Kobold character
>> will be gaining between 10-20% more experience than the rest of the
>> party. That will either help offset item creation costs or enable the
>> Kobold to level just slightly ahead of his peers. Not too great a
>> benefit, I would think.
>>
>> What do you think, sirs?
>
>Hmmm. Interesting idea, but I don't think it's very balanced.

Another way to do the same basic idea is just to give them more skill
points.
Anonymous
July 8, 2005 8:30:42 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Raphael Russell wrote:
> As is probably already known, Kobolds are rotten choices when it comes
> to play balance.

Bullshit. For most purposes they're an elf with a size bonus to hit
and AC, exchanging spot bonuses for hide.


> While they move quickly for small creatures, they have rotten stat
> adjustments and their other abilities are essentially 'free' for the
> other non-human races.

They have +2 Dex and -2 Con, with +1 NA and 30' speed. You can
safely ignore the -4 Str with Kobolds, as you just don't use Str with
the types of characters they become.

Kobold melee fighters are weak characters, that's why the Warriors
in the MM get such a low CR. Kobold PCs aren't melee fighters, just like
Half-Orc PCs aren't Sorcerers.

--
tussock

Aspie at work, sorry in advance.
Anonymous
July 8, 2005 8:30:43 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

tussock wrote:
> Raphael Russell wrote:
>
>> As is probably already known, Kobolds are rotten choices when it comes
>> to play balance.
>
>
> Bullshit. For most purposes they're an elf with a size bonus to hit
> and AC, exchanging spot bonuses for hide.
>
>
>> While they move quickly for small creatures, they have rotten stat
>> adjustments and their other abilities are essentially 'free' for the
>> other non-human races.
>
>
> They have +2 Dex and -2 Con, with +1 NA and 30' speed. You can
> safely ignore the -4 Str with Kobolds, as you just don't use Str with
> the types of characters they become.
>
> Kobold melee fighters are weak characters, that's why the Warriors
> in the MM get such a low CR. Kobold PCs aren't melee fighters, just like
> Half-Orc PCs aren't Sorcerers.
>

So your Kobold characters are never going to need to carry anything,
will not wear armor, and will never need to fend off a grapple check?
And heck, since half-orcs don't become spellcasters, by that logic,
their +2 strength isn't balanced by their penalties to intelligence and
charisma!

Do you have any more vulgarity to contribute to this thread?
Anonymous
July 10, 2005 1:58:09 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Behold! for Raphael Russell <aod1@cox.net> spake unto the multitude
thus:

>As is probably already known, Kobolds are rotten choices when it comes
>to play balance.

Given the racial bonus with Search and Trapmaking, how about giving
them the rogue's Trapfinding and Trap Sense abilities free, based on
character level?

Likewise, search should be a class skill regardless of class.

--
Jim or Sarah Davies, but probably Jim

D&D and Star Fleet Battles stuff on http://www.aaargh.org
Anonymous
July 10, 2005 6:32:11 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Jim Davies wrote:

> Behold! for Raphael Russell <aod1@cox.net> spake unto the multitude
> thus:
>
>
>>As is probably already known, Kobolds are rotten choices when it comes
>>to play balance.
>
>
> Given the racial bonus with Search and Trapmaking, how about giving
> them the rogue's Trapfinding and Trap Sense abilities free, based on
> character level?

THIS is a pretty damn cool idea.


> Likewise, search should be a class skill regardless of class.

Not so sure about this one.

Here's another idea -- Kobold Paragon.

What would three levels of kobold paragon give you?

- Ron ^*^
Anonymous
July 11, 2005 12:25:31 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Have any of you read the kobold article in a recent Dragon Magazine?
The more the marrier (NPCs).
Anonymous
July 11, 2005 9:55:45 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Werebat wrote:
>
> What would three levels of kobold paragon give you?

Couple Src levels, better racial skills (to +4), better natural
armour (to +2, maybe +3). Perhaps something like a free search check for
passing within 10' of a trap, or just Trap Sense progression. Good Ref
and Will saves. Maybe lose light sensitivity.

--
tussock

Aspie at work, sorry in advance.
Anonymous
July 12, 2005 4:20:20 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

In article <Oh3Ae.74523$Fv.40850@lakeread01>,
Werebat <ranpoirier@cox.net> wrote:
>Here's another idea -- Kobold Paragon.
>What would three levels of kobold paragon give you?

I thought you were the one who considered Paragons to be munchkin traps.
--
"Yo' ideas need to be thinked befo' they are say'd" - Ian Lamb, age 3.5
http://www.cs.queensu.ca/~dalamb/ qucis->cs to reply (it's a long story...)
Anonymous
July 12, 2005 5:10:28 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Behold! for Werebat <ranpoirier@cox.net> spake unto the multitude
thus:

>Jim Davies wrote:
>> Given the racial bonus with Search and Trapmaking, how about giving
>> them the rogue's Trapfinding and Trap Sense abilities free, based on
>> character level?
>
>THIS is a pretty damn cool idea.
>
(bows)
>
>> Likewise, search should be a class skill regardless of class.
>
>Not so sure about this one.

The problem being that a kobold sorcerer isn't going to be overflowing
with Int, so he'll be getting 2 or 3 skill points per level and none
will go to a cross-class skill. As such, he won't get much use out of
his +2 or +3 Search for trapfinding past about 5th level, so all he
gets is the small bonus on Reflex saves. Without evasion or hit
points, he won't be looking for traps without some faith that he'll
find or survive them.

Assuming he has Int 12, he's probably buying up Spellcraft, KA and
Concentration, maybe Hide at low levels, maybe Bluff. Not much left
for hobbies.

--
Jim or Sarah Davies, but probably Jim

D&D and Star Fleet Battles stuff on http://www.aaargh.org
Anonymous
July 12, 2005 5:28:08 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On 12 Jul 2005 00:20:20 GMT, dalamb@qucis.queensu.ca (David Alex Lamb)
scribed into the ether:

>In article <Oh3Ae.74523$Fv.40850@lakeread01>,
>Werebat <ranpoirier@cox.net> wrote:
>>Here's another idea -- Kobold Paragon.
>>What would three levels of kobold paragon give you?
>
>I thought you were the one who considered Paragons to be munchkin traps.

Maybe he gnawed off his leg.

Seems the ronish thing to do.
Anonymous
July 12, 2005 9:29:12 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Jim Davies" <jim@aaargh.NoBleedinSpam.org> wrote in message
news:ag16d1ljjq0t3it72b7unpfothnbvhrhtr@4ax.com...
> Behold! for Werebat <ranpoirier@cox.net> spake unto the multitude
> thus:

>>> Likewise, search should be a class skill regardless of class.
>>
>>Not so sure about this one.
>
> The problem being that a kobold sorcerer isn't going to be overflowing
> with Int, so he'll be getting 2 or 3 skill points per level and none
> will go to a cross-class skill. As such, he won't get much use out of
> his +2 or +3 Search for trapfinding past about 5th level, so all he
> gets is the small bonus on Reflex saves. Without evasion or hit
> points, he won't be looking for traps without some faith that he'll
> find or survive them.
>
> Assuming he has Int 12, he's probably buying up Spellcraft, KA and
> Concentration, maybe Hide at low levels, maybe Bluff. Not much left
> for hobbies.

As an alternative, how about letting kobolds detect traps in a similar way
to elves detecting secret doors?

This means that if they don't focuses on traps they can still notice the
simpler ones without even trying. It also makes kobold rogues the
trap-finders of choice at high levels.

--
All the best,
RF
Anonymous
July 12, 2005 3:21:17 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

In article <l576d159o48mqabgaso8e2fk0umhmn2k1m@4ax.com>,
Matt Frisch <matuse73@yahoo.spam.me.not.com> wrote:
>On 12 Jul 2005 00:20:20 GMT, dalamb@qucis.queensu.ca (David Alex Lamb)
>scribed into the ether:
>
>>In article <Oh3Ae.74523$Fv.40850@lakeread01>,
>>Werebat <ranpoirier@cox.net> wrote:
>>>Here's another idea -- Kobold Paragon.
>>>What would three levels of kobold paragon give you?
>>
>>I thought you were the one who considered Paragons to be munchkin traps.
>
>Maybe he gnawed off his leg.
>
>Seems the ronish thing to do.

Is Ron a munchkin? I thought he was mostly a friendly troll. :) 
--
"Yo' ideas need to be thinked befo' they are say'd" - Ian Lamb, age 3.5
http://www.cs.queensu.ca/~dalamb/ qucis->cs to reply (it's a long story...)
Anonymous
July 12, 2005 10:51:15 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On 12 Jul 2005 11:21:17 GMT, dalamb@qucis.queensu.ca (David Alex Lamb)
scribed into the ether:

>In article <l576d159o48mqabgaso8e2fk0umhmn2k1m@4ax.com>,
>Matt Frisch <matuse73@yahoo.spam.me.not.com> wrote:
>>On 12 Jul 2005 00:20:20 GMT, dalamb@qucis.queensu.ca (David Alex Lamb)
>>scribed into the ether:
>>
>>>In article <Oh3Ae.74523$Fv.40850@lakeread01>,
>>>Werebat <ranpoirier@cox.net> wrote:
>>>>Here's another idea -- Kobold Paragon.
>>>>What would three levels of kobold paragon give you?
>>>
>>>I thought you were the one who considered Paragons to be munchkin traps.
>>
>>Maybe he gnawed off his leg.
>>
>>Seems the ronish thing to do.
>
>Is Ron a munchkin? I thought he was mostly a friendly troll. :) 

Well he's talking about paragons now...clearly he has fallen to the dark
side.
!