So, can horses initiate Grapples?

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/Gi [...] ipt?SK=200

So here's a question: can horses initiate grapples? There's nothing in
the rules forbidding them from doing so, but, well, geez.

Opinions?

Laszlo

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu wrote:
> http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/Gi [...] ipt?SK=200

Also... a Paladin/Monk? Damn, with Int her only non-primary stat, no
wonder she thought the Order was evil. I'm surprised she can speak
Common.

Laszlo

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu wrote:
> http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/Gi [...] ipt?SK=200
>
> So here's a question: can horses initiate grapples? There's nothing in
> the rules forbidding them from doing so, but, well, geez.
>
> Opinions?

IMHO,

I would say no, unless the horse was high int or had
been specifically trained to fight this way. A normal
horse really wouldn't fight, aside from strikes with
the front hooves, a kick with the rear hooves, and maybe
a bull (horse) rush. Most horses would just run away
from combat, especially if it was directed at them.

Two grapple, I would think you would need two things...

1. Some way to grab your opponent (bite, claw, hand,
pincer...)
2. The intelligence or instinct to do the grapple. A
killer croc is not intelligent, but it has the instincts
to perform a grapple (as it is a good way to get food).

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

In article <1120918093.462701.86580@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
"decalod85" <decalod85@comcast.net> wrote:

> laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu wrote:
> > http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/Gi [...] ipt?SK=200
> >
> > So here's a question: can horses initiate grapples? There's nothing in
> > the rules forbidding them from doing so, but, well, geez.
> >
> > Opinions?
>
> IMHO,
>
> I would say no, unless the horse was high int or had
> been specifically trained to fight this way. A normal
> horse really wouldn't fight, aside from strikes with
> the front hooves, a kick with the rear hooves, and maybe
> a bull (horse) rush. Most horses would just run away
> from combat, especially if it was directed at them.

Call it a hunch, but would you by any chance be a person who doesn't
have much to do with horses? Some horses *like* stomping things, and
many horses will... (see below).

> Two grapple, I would think you would need two things...
>
> 1. Some way to grab your opponent (bite, claw, hand,
> pincer...)

One of those four things is something horses do.

> 2. The intelligence or instinct to do the grapple. A
> killer croc is not intelligent, but it has the instincts
> to perform a grapple (as it is a good way to get food).

In context, it looks like it's a paladin's steed. I imagine it's smart
enough.

In reality, well, it's hard to say. Certainly most domesticated horses,
most of the time, wouldn't so anything like that. They are prey animals
and as you said they will generally run away from trouble. On the other
hand there are plenty of documented instances of horses and related
animals getting plenty nasty, especially stallions.

There are some neat photos and some sensible discussion here:

http://msgboard.snopes.com/message [...] c/f/60/t/0
00787/p/1.html

--
Kevin Lowe,
Tasmania.

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu wrote:

>
> Kevin Lowe wrote:
>
>>In article <1120907004.936645.7340@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
>> laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu wrote:
>>
>>
>>>http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=200
>>>
>>>So here's a question: can horses initiate grapples? There's nothing in
>>>the rules forbidding them from doing so, but, well, geez.
>>>
>>>Opinions?
>>
>>If one of those things stands on your foot, you're grappled until it
>>deigns to put its damn foot someplace else. I've got no question that
>>an intelligent one could knock you down and stand on you even if you
>>were human size.
>
>
> That seems convincing... I don't have much experience with horses at
> all. From your posts, I assume you do?
>
> Unfortunately, my RL play group has no real experience with horses
> either, and they'll scream bloody murder if I introduce grappling
> horses. Hmm. We'll see.

Stallions "grapple" mares...

- Ron ^*^

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

In article <1120920696.499921.129890@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu wrote:

> Kevin Lowe wrote:

> > If one of those things stands on your foot, you're grappled until it
> > deigns to put its damn foot someplace else. I've got no question that
> > an intelligent one could knock you down and stand on you even if you
> > were human size.
>
> That seems convincing... I don't have much experience with horses at
> all. From your posts, I assume you do?

I've lived with a couple of the beasties for years now, and I ride a
little. My significant other is their owner and the resident horse
expert, but I pick things up here and there.

> Unfortunately, my RL play group has no real experience with horses
> either, and they'll scream bloody murder if I introduce grappling
> horses. Hmm. We'll see.

I posted a snopes link to some piccies that allegedly show a mule owning
a mountain lion. If you don't tell your players that the piccies' story
is not confirmed to be true, I'm sure they'll buy attack horses.

:-)

--
Kevin Lowe,
Tasmania.

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Kevin Lowe wrote:
> In article <1120918093.462701.86580@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
> "decalod85" <decalod85@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu wrote:
> > > http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/Gi [...] ipt?SK=200
> > >
> > > So here's a question: can horses initiate grapples? There's nothing in
> > > the rules forbidding them from doing so, but, well, geez.
> > >
> > > Opinions?
> >
> > IMHO,
> >
> > I would say no, unless the horse was high int or had
> > been specifically trained to fight this way. A normal
> > horse really wouldn't fight, aside from strikes with
> > the front hooves, a kick with the rear hooves, and maybe
> > a bull (horse) rush. Most horses would just run away
> > from combat, especially if it was directed at them.
>
> Call it a hunch, but would you by any chance be a person who doesn't
> have much to do with horses? Some horses *like* stomping things, and
> many horses will... (see below).

I've ridden horses a couple of times, but they were very
domesticated. My brother knows first hand about the
stomping bit (one got is foot).

> > Two grapple, I would think you would need two things...
> >
> > 1. Some way to grab your opponent (bite, claw, hand,
> > pincer...)
>
> One of those four things is something horses do.

Yup. My cousin got one of those. Same horse that got
my brother. His name was Moosa (pronounced Moose-ahh)
and he was kind of a bad ass...

> > 2. The intelligence or instinct to do the grapple. A
> > killer croc is not intelligent, but it has the instincts
> > to perform a grapple (as it is a good way to get food).
>
> In context, it looks like it's a paladin's steed. I imagine it's smart
> enough.

Agreed, but that is a special horse, not just your regular
horse. There is no reason a very well trained war horse
couldn't be taught to bite and hold on to an opponent.
I think I would allow a unicorn or pegasus to grapple
(either with teeth or trying to pin their opponent to
the ground).

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

decalod85 wrote:
>
> Kevin Lowe wrote:
>
>>In article <1120918093.462701.86580@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
>> "decalod85" <decalod85@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu wrote:
>>>
>>>>http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=200
>>>>
>>>>So here's a question: can horses initiate grapples? There's nothing in
>>>>the rules forbidding them from doing so, but, well, geez.
>>>>
>>>>Opinions?
>>>
>>>IMHO,
>>>
>>>I would say no, unless the horse was high int or had
>>>been specifically trained to fight this way. A normal
>>>horse really wouldn't fight, aside from strikes with
>>>the front hooves, a kick with the rear hooves, and maybe
>>>a bull (horse) rush. Most horses would just run away
>>>from combat, especially if it was directed at them.
>>
>>Call it a hunch, but would you by any chance be a person who doesn't
>>have much to do with horses? Some horses *like* stomping things, and
>>many horses will... (see below).
>
>
> I've ridden horses a couple of times, but they were very
> domesticated. My brother knows first hand about the
> stomping bit (one got is foot).
>
>
>>>Two grapple, I would think you would need two things...
>>>
>>>1. Some way to grab your opponent (bite, claw, hand,
>>>pincer...)
>>
>>One of those four things is something horses do.
>
>
> Yup. My cousin got one of those. Same horse that got
> my brother. His name was Moosa (pronounced Moose-ahh)
> and he was kind of a bad ass...

But I thought you were talking about HORSES...

- Ron ^*^

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

<laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu> wrote in message
news:1120907004.936645.7340@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/Gi [...] ipt?SK=200
> So here's a question: can horses initiate grapples? There's nothing in
> the rules forbidding them from doing so, but, well, geez.

You can only initiate a grapple if you have a way to grab.

Does a horse?

Only with its bite. If this isn't statted as a natural weapon, then the
guidance on the WOTC website would lead one to conclude that it should be
treated as an unarmed strike. While grappling or grappled, the horses
hooves are only good for attacking since they cannot grab, wrap, or hold.


-Michael

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Werebat wrote:
> decalod85 wrote:
> > Yup. My cousin got one of those. Same horse that got
> > my brother. His name was Moosa (pronounced Moose-ahh)
> > and he was kind of a bad ass...
>
> But I thought you were talking about HORSES...

Ooooops! Not very clear there, was I. My cousin got
bit by the same horse that stomped on my brothers foot.
The horse was named Moosa...

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Sat, 09 Jul 2005 09:44:53 -0700, decalod85 wrote:

>
>
> Kevin Lowe wrote:
>> In article <1120907004.936645.7340@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
>> laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu wrote:
>>
>> > http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/Gi [...] ipt?SK=200
>> >
>> > So here's a question: can horses initiate grapples? There's nothing in
>> > the rules forbidding them from doing so, but, well, geez.
>> >
>> > Opinions?
>>
>> If one of those things stands on your foot, you're grappled until it
>> deigns to put its damn foot someplace else. I've got no question that
>> an intelligent one could knock you down and stand on you even if you
>> were human size.
>
> This could make for a very entertaining scene.
> 1. Rogue tries to steal a horse.
> 2. Horse turns out to be a paladin's mount.
> 3. Rogue is knocked down and pinned while horse whinnies,
> calling for it's master to come and collect the idiot
> that tried to steal him!

Why a rogue? Why not a hungry commoner/1 who's actually a child.

And what's the common penalty for a horse thief? Yepp, gotta need
some hemp rope.

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

decalod85 wrote:

>
> Michael Scott Brown wrote:
>
>><laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu> wrote in message
>>news:1120907004.936645.7340@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>>http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=200
>>>So here's a question: can horses initiate grapples? There's nothing in
>>>the rules forbidding them from doing so, but, well, geez.
>>
>> You can only initiate a grapple if you have a way to grab.
>>
>> Does a horse?
>>
>> Only with its bite. If this isn't statted as a natural weapon, then the
>>guidance on the WOTC website would lead one to conclude that it should be
>>treated as an unarmed strike. While grappling or grappled, the horses
>>hooves are only good for attacking since they cannot grab, wrap, or hold.
>
>
> An additional note to this. Light and Heavy warhorses have
> a bite attack, as does a pegasus. Unicorns and regular
> horses do not have bites listed as natural weapons (seems
> like an oversite on the unicorn).

Actually, while not the same animal...

I believe ZEBRAS have a nasty bite attack, and there are documented
cases of them killing people they have "grappled" by biting and not
letting go.

- Ron ^*^

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

In article <vhUze.2879$BK1.199@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
"Michael Scott Brown" <mistermichael@earthlink.net> wrote:

> <laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu> wrote in message
> news:1120907004.936645.7340@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> > http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/Gi [...] ipt?SK=200
> > So here's a question: can horses initiate grapples? There's nothing in
> > the rules forbidding them from doing so, but, well, geez.
>
> You can only initiate a grapple if you have a way to grab.
>
> Does a horse?
>
> Only with its bite. If this isn't statted as a natural weapon, then the
> guidance on the WOTC website would lead one to conclude that it should be
> treated as an unarmed strike. While grappling or grappled, the horses
> hooves are only good for attacking since they cannot grab, wrap, or hold.

One horse of my acquiantance, a racing colt, had a plastic "witches hat"
(the bright orange things they use to mark out road works and so forth)
as a toy. He'd grab it by the top with his teeth and shake it quite
savagely, and then hurl it several meters through the air. Because we
were softies we were always throwing it back over the fence to him. He
ended up tearing the top off it.

If horses don't have a bite attack, albeit one that's not really in the
same league as that of a wolf or war dog, it's an oversight on the part
of the designers.

This horse also liked biting people, and was quite cunning about finding
opportunities to do so. He also figured out how to lie on his side and
commando-crawl under an electric fence. Smart, nasty horse.

--
Kevin Lowe,
Tasmania.

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Billy Yank wrote:
> "Repent decalod85!" said the Ticktockman. "Get Stuffed!" decalod85
> replied. Then he added:
>
>
>>Ooooops! Not very clear there, was I. My cousin got
>>bit by the same horse that stomped on my brothers foot.
>>The horse was named Moosa...
>>
>
>
> Moosa bites can be very nasty, you know.

"Moosa bites... Moosa chewses..."

- Ron ^*^

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On 9 Jul 2005 09:35:12 -0700, laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu carved upon
a tablet of ether:

> I'm just saying it seems really difficult to actually _do_, for horses.
> Are female horses even significantly weaker than males?

Usually a bit smaller, and thus weaker. The main thing is that
stallions are very seldom even interested in a mare that's not in
season, or nearly so, so the mares probably aren't putting up as much
of a fight as they could. Also, there's a persistence factor - past a
certain point it's probably easier to just let the randy sod have his
way and get back to eat grass than it is to keep running and kicking.


--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Sat, 09 Jul 2005 15:47:43 -0400, Werebat <ranpoirier@cox.net>
carved upon a tablet of ether:

> Actually, while not the same animal...
>
> I believe ZEBRAS have a nasty bite attack, and there are documented
> cases of them killing people they have "grappled" by biting and not
> letting go.

Zebra stallions have 2" long canines, so I'm not surprised. Some horse
stallions have fangs too, but it's not common, and they usually aren't
as big.


--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Kevin Lowe wrote:

> I posted a snopes link to some piccies that allegedly show a mule owning
> a mountain lion. If you don't tell your players that the piccies' story
> is not confirmed to be true, I'm sure they'll buy attack horses.


Oh yeah. I saw that too! Different pics, though. The mule killed
the mountain lion. Kicked him, trampled him, and bit him to death.
Then dragged the lion's body around stomping on it for awhile in a
fit of rage brought on by excessive fear. While herbivores will
fly from danger at most opportunities, my guess is that the mule
was caught in a situation where it could not run.

My opinion. Medium, or Large four-legged herbivores can initiate
grapple, and can Rage.

I have seen cattle do significant damage to people as well when
caught in unexpected situations, bulls are downright aggressive,
and will bull rush, charge, trample, grapple (Saw a bull bite
someone and toss him once -- ditto that for a Buffalo), bite, and
gore.

Then there is the Stampede.

Re,
Dirk

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

In article <dhcAe.1136$oZ.1009@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>,
Dirk Collins <dirk.collins@Earthlink.Net> wrote:

> Kevin Lowe wrote:
>
> > I posted a snopes link to some piccies that allegedly show a mule owning
> > a mountain lion. If you don't tell your players that the piccies' story
> > is not confirmed to be true, I'm sure they'll buy attack horses.
>
>
> Oh yeah. I saw that too! Different pics, though. The mule killed
> the mountain lion. Kicked him, trampled him, and bit him to death.
> Then dragged the lion's body around stomping on it for awhile in a
> fit of rage brought on by excessive fear. While herbivores will
> fly from danger at most opportunities, my guess is that the mule
> was caught in a situation where it could not run.
>
> My opinion. Medium, or Large four-legged herbivores can initiate
> grapple, and can Rage.
>
> I have seen cattle do significant damage to people as well when
> caught in unexpected situations, bulls are downright aggressive,
> and will bull rush, charge, trample, grapple (Saw a bull bite
> someone and toss him once -- ditto that for a Buffalo), bite, and
> gore.
>
> Then there is the Stampede.

Compared to a human, any large animal is an absolute terror if it
decides to be.

I do feel obliged to point out, however, that being beaten up by a cow
or a paddock pony is not very fun or heroic. So while a neophyte
warrior might well, in real life, get stomped by an enraged steer I
don't think such a scene is necessarily a good idea in a DnD game. :-)

That said, I vaguely recall that some mythical figures were supposed to
have wrestled bulls or something of the sort. So while a toe-to-toe
slugfest with cattle is probably too silly for most games, Grappling an
ox or a buffalo or something could be a fun test or challenge set by a
King (or whoever).

--
Kevin Lowe,
Tasmania.

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Grapping horses...............

The whistle blows... Lets get ready to rumble... its Tapir wrestling
time.
On the left: Carlos Fandango, masked Malysian Tapirr, on the left:
Bernitto Swaligeddo, the striped african tapir........

I lke the idea. A lot.

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu wrote:
> http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/Gi [...] ipt?SK=200
>
> So here's a question: can horses initiate grapples? There's nothing in
> the rules forbidding them from doing so, but, well, geez.
>
> Opinions?
>
> Laszlo
>

Oh, God, here we go...

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Jasin Zujovic wrote:
> decalod85@comcast.net says...
>>>>1. Some way to grab your opponent (bite, claw, hand,
>>>>pincer...)
>>>One of those four things is something horses do.
>>Yup. My cousin got one of those. Same horse that got
>>my brother. His name was Moosa (pronounced Moose-ahh)
>>and he was kind of a bad ass...
> A Moosa once bit your brother?

Your brother bit a Moosa?
--
"... respect, all good works are not done by only good folk. For within these Trials, we
shall do what needs to be done."
--till next time, Jameson Stalanthas Yu -x- <<poetry.dolphins-cove.com>>