Paladins and scrolls

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Can a paladin use a cleric spell on a scroll before he is eligible to
cast spells?

 

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Shawn Roske wrote:
> Can a paladin use a cleric spell on a scroll before he is eligible to
> cast spells?

No, but wands are officially o.k.

- Justisaur

 

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Shawn Roske wrote:
> Can a paladin use a cleric spell on a scroll before he is eligible to
> cast spells?

Yes. If the paladin has a high enough wisdom score to cast
that level of spell, and the spell is on the paladins spell
list.

The paladins effective caster level is zero, so unless it is
a zero level spell, the paladin needs to make a caster level
check.

It does not say this exactly in the rules or the SRD. It
says that the paladin has no caster level. I found the
answer in the "Rules of the Game" article, "Using Magic
Items - Part II". It states:

"If you don't have enough levels in the class to cast any
spells yet, you can still try to use a spell trigger item,
but your effective caster level for activating the spell is 0."

Here is the link if you have questions.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041116a

 

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decalod85 wrote:
>
> Shawn Roske wrote:
>
>>Can a paladin use a cleric spell on a scroll before he is eligible to
>>cast spells?
>
>
> Yes. If the paladin has a high enough wisdom score to cast
> that level of spell, and the spell is on the paladins spell
> list.
>
> The paladins effective caster level is zero, so unless it is
> a zero level spell, the paladin needs to make a caster level
> check.

This is what I thought.

Justisaur's offer to consider wands is interesting. I would have
thought wands more difficult for a paladin to use than scrolls.

>
> It does not say this exactly in the rules or the SRD. It
> says that the paladin has no caster level. I found the
> answer in the "Rules of the Game" article, "Using Magic
> Items - Part II". It states:
>
> "If you don't have enough levels in the class to cast any
> spells yet, you can still try to use a spell trigger item,
> but your effective caster level for activating the spell is 0."
>
> Here is the link if you have questions.
>
> http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041116a
>

I suppose a wand or any magic item is included in the "spell triger
item" category.

This would apply for rangers too, eh?


Another thing:

When puchasing scrolls durring character creation, assuming the DM
permits it, how is cost calculated? How is the caster level of the
spell factored in? Does it effect the price?

 

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Shawn Roske wrote:
> decalod85 wrote:
> >
> > Shawn Roske wrote:
> >
> >>Can a paladin use a cleric spell on a scroll before he is eligible to
> >>cast spells?
> >
> >
> > Yes. If the paladin has a high enough wisdom score to cast
> > that level of spell, and the spell is on the paladins spell
> > list.
> >
> > The paladins effective caster level is zero, so unless it is
> > a zero level spell, the paladin needs to make a caster level
> > check.
>
> This is what I thought.

No. Listen to Nikolas, his is the best answer you're going to get on
this subject.

> Justisaur's offer to consider wands is interesting. I would have
> thought wands more difficult for a paladin to use than scrolls.

Nope, not if they have the right spell in them.

> > Here is the link if you have questions.
> >
> > http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041116a
> >
>
> I suppose a wand or any magic item is included in the "spell triger
> item" category.

Wands are. Scrolls aren't.

> This would apply for rangers too, eh?

Yup.

> Another thing:
>
> When puchasing scrolls durring character creation, assuming the DM
> permits it, how is cost calculated? How is the caster level of the
> spell factored in? Does it effect the price?

The market price for a scroll is 25 gp * caster level * spell level,
then add the cost of any expensive material components, then add 5 *
any XP cost (in gold pieces).

So a CL 10 Fireball scroll would cost 750 gp (25 * 10 * 3). A CL 1
Identify would be 125 gp (25 * 1 * 1 + 100).

Laszlo

 

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decalod85 wrote:
> Shawn Roske wrote:
> >
> > Can a paladin use a cleric spell on a scroll before he
> > is eligible to cast spells?
>
> Yes.

No. Please don't confuse the OP.

> The paladins effective caster level is zero,

No, because:

> It does not say this exactly in the rules or the SRD. It
> says that the paladin has no caster level.

This is not equivalent to caster level zero.

> I found the answer in the "Rules of the Game" article,
> "Using Magic Items - Part II".

No, you didn't. You found a similar answer to a different question,
because the Rules of the Game article is poorly laid out. See below:

> It states:
>
> "If you don't have enough levels in the class to cast
> any spells yet, you can still try to use a spell
> trigger item, but your effective caster level for
> activating the spell is 0."

Spell trigger == wands, staves.

Spell completion == scrolls.

Spell trigger <> Spell completion.

These rules (for spell trigger items) are in the spell completion
section, but the terminology is correct. Notice that no similar
language appears under spell completion (which has been repeatedly
confirmed to work the way you described above, unlike spell trigger),
which confirms my statement that this applies only to spell trigger
items.

--
Nik
- remove vermin from email address to reply.

 

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Shawn Roske wrote:
> decalod85 wrote:
> > Shawn Roske wrote:
> > >
> > > Can a paladin use a cleric spell on a scroll before he
> > > is eligible to cast spells?
> >
> > Yes. If the paladin has a high enough wisdom score
> > to cast that level of spell, and the spell is on
> > the paladins spell list.
> >
> > The paladins effective caster level is zero, so unless
> > it is a zero level spell, the paladin needs to make a
> > caster level check.
>
> This is what I thought.

He's wrong, though. Spell trigger items (like wands and staves) work
differently from spell completion items (like scrolls). In addition,
the minimum caster level for a 0-level spell is 1st, requiring a
caster level check at all times for someone with a caster level of 0.

> Justisaur's offer to consider wands is interesting. I
> would have thought wands more difficult for a paladin
> to use than scrolls.

Wands (and other spell trigger items) are inherently easier to use
than scrolls (and other spell completion items). They've always been.
It is easier for the Wiz5 to use a wand of ice storm than it is for
him to use a scroll of ice storm.

Spell trigger items do not require any minimum stats. Scrolls (and
other spell completion items) do. More evidence of ease of use of
spell trigger (wands) vs. spell completion (scrolls).

Beyond that, note that armor spell failure chances apply to scrolls,
where they do not apply to wand usage.

> I suppose a wand or any magic item is included in the
> "spell triger item" category.

Wands, yes. Staves, yes. Scrolls, *NO*. Scrolls are explicitly
spell *completion* items, and use completely different rules. Please
review those rules.

> This would apply for rangers too, eh?

The correct rules apply to rangers, yes. Wands of /cure moderate
wounds/ are okay for a Rgr1 to use, but no scrolls at all are.

> Another thing:
>
> When puchasing scrolls durring character creation, assuming
> the DM permits it, how is cost calculated?

As described in the DMG and PH. This is basic stuff.

> How is the caster level of the spell factored in?

Assumed minimum unless you purchase a higher caster level scroll.

> Does it effect the price?

Yes. As described in the DMG and PH. This is basic stuff.

Please review the rules and costs for scrolls and wands.

--
Nik
- remove vermin from email address to reply.

 

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Shawn Roske wrote:
> laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu wrote:
> >
> > Shawn Roske wrote:
> >>Another thing:
> >>
> >>When puchasing scrolls durring character creation, assuming the DM
> >>permits it, how is cost calculated? How is the caster level of the
> >>spell factored in? Does it effect the price?
> >
> >
> > The market price for a scroll is 25 gp * caster level * spell level,
> > then add the cost of any expensive material components, then add 5 *
> > any XP cost (in gold pieces).
> >
> > So a CL 10 Fireball scroll would cost 750 gp (25 * 10 * 3). A CL 1
> > Identify would be 125 gp (25 * 1 * 1 + 100).
> >
> > Laszlo
>
> Thanks everyone. I know this is basic stuff. I just couldn't find the
> damn calculation rules as clear as Laszlo wrote it out for me here.
>
> The PHB makes it easy to find the cost of hiring a spellcaster to cast a
> spell, but I couldn't find the cost for scrolls. The DMG has the info
> on scrolls, but I couldn't find the formula aside from the base cost
> listed in the section. It must have been staring me in the face.

No worries. I don't really share (or get) the idea that simpler rules
questions shouldn't be asked--or answered--here. The rulebooks aren't
exactly models of clarity or organization, and finding something
specific can be difficult.

Laszlo

 

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laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu wrote:
>
> Shawn Roske wrote:
>
>>decalod85 wrote:
>>
>>>Shawn Roske wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Can a paladin use a cleric spell on a scroll before he is eligible to
>>>>cast spells?

I understand this now, thank you.

>>Another thing:
>>
>>When puchasing scrolls durring character creation, assuming the DM
>>permits it, how is cost calculated? How is the caster level of the
>>spell factored in? Does it effect the price?
>
>
> The market price for a scroll is 25 gp * caster level * spell level,
> then add the cost of any expensive material components, then add 5 *
> any XP cost (in gold pieces).
>
> So a CL 10 Fireball scroll would cost 750 gp (25 * 10 * 3). A CL 1
> Identify would be 125 gp (25 * 1 * 1 + 100).
>
> Laszlo
>


Thanks everyone. I know this is basic stuff. I just couldn't find the
damn calculation rules as clear as Laszlo wrote it out for me here.

The PHB makes it easy to find the cost of hiring a spellcaster to cast a
spell, but I couldn't find the cost for scrolls. The DMG has the info
on scrolls, but I couldn't find the formula aside from the base cost
listed in the section. It must have been staring me in the face.

 

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In article <1121156863.bcaff4372a8116349d29c37c2e724cb5@teranews>,
Nikolas Landauer <dacileva.flea@hotmail.com.tick> wrote:
>Shawn Roske wrote:
>> Does it effect the price?
>
>Yes. As described in the DMG and PH. This is basic stuff.
>
>Please review the rules and costs for scrolls and wands.

And be glad it was Nik who answered, instead of MSB.
--
"Yo' ideas need to be thinked befo' they are say'd" - Ian Lamb, age 3.5
http://www.cs.queensu.ca/~dalamb/ qucis->cs to reply (it's a long story...)

 

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Nikolas Landauer wrote:
> decalod85 wrote:
> > I found the answer in the "Rules of the Game" article,
> > "Using Magic Items - Part II".
>
> No, you didn't. You found a similar answer to a different question,
> because the Rules of the Game article is poorly laid out. See below:

That just blows! You and I would have been in total agreement
if I had not found that section in the ROTG article. I was
writing all the same arguments. I never noticed that it switched
activation types halfway through the paragraph.

SRD is very clear on this.

Sorry to everyone who read my mis-informed post.

 

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Nikolas Landauer wrote:

> Beyond that, note that armor spell failure chances apply to scrolls,
> where they do not apply to wand usage.

Activating a wand also doesn't provoke Attacks of Opportunity, as activating
a scroll does - another advantage if you're in combat.

--
Mark.

 

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laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu wrote:
>
> Shawn Roske wrote:
>
>>When puchasing scrolls durring character creation, assuming the DM
>>permits it, how is cost calculated? How is the caster level of the
>>spell factored in? Does it effect the price?
>
>
> The market price for a scroll is 25 gp * caster level * spell level,
> then add the cost of any expensive material components, then add 5 *
> any XP cost (in gold pieces).
>
> So a CL 10 Fireball scroll would cost 750 gp (25 * 10 * 3). A CL 1
> Identify would be 125 gp (25 * 1 * 1 + 100).
>

In this example, is this for a scroll with a single single spell on it?
I suppose using this formula for scrolls with more than one spell on
it simply requires addition.

> Laszlo
>

Is this the same calculation for wands? The DMG says that the listed
price is the cost at minimum caster level, does that include spell
level, too? This makes wands quite affordable, but limits their power
if there is not a formula to up the caster level.

 

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Shawn Roske wrote:
> laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu wrote:
> >
> > Shawn Roske wrote:
> >
> >>When puchasing scrolls durring character creation, assuming the DM
> >>permits it, how is cost calculated? How is the caster level of the
> >>spell factored in? Does it effect the price?
> >
> > The market price for a scroll is 25 gp * caster level * spell level,
> > then add the cost of any expensive material components, then add 5 *
> > any XP cost (in gold pieces).
> >
> > So a CL 10 Fireball scroll would cost 750 gp (25 * 10 * 3). A CL 1
> > Identify would be 125 gp (25 * 1 * 1 + 100).
> >
>
> In this example, is this for a scroll with a single single spell on it?
> I suppose using this formula for scrolls with more than one spell on
> it simply requires addition.

Yep.

>
> Is this the same calculation for wands? The DMG says that the listed
> price is the cost at minimum caster level, does that include spell
> level, too? This makes wands quite affordable, but limits their power
> if there is not a formula to up the caster level.

Wands are simply costed equal to 30 scrolls of the same spell. So to
find the cost of a wand, just calculate the cost for a scroll, then
multiply by 30.

Laszlo

 

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Shawn Roske <shawn_roske@sympatico.ca> wrote:
> laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu wrote:
>>
>> Shawn Roske wrote:
>>
>>>When puchasing scrolls durring character creation, assuming the DM
>>>permits it, how is cost calculated? How is the caster level of the
>>>spell factored in? Does it effect the price?
>>
>>
>> The market price for a scroll is 25 gp * caster level * spell level,
>> then add the cost of any expensive material components, then add 5 *
>> any XP cost (in gold pieces).
>>
>> So a CL 10 Fireball scroll would cost 750 gp (25 * 10 * 3). A CL 1
>> Identify would be 125 gp (25 * 1 * 1 + 100).
>>
>
> In this example, is this for a scroll with a single single spell on it?
> I suppose using this formula for scrolls with more than one spell on
> it simply requires addition.
>
>> Laszlo
>>
>
> Is this the same calculation for wands? The DMG says that the listed
> price is the cost at minimum caster level, does that include spell
> level, too? This makes wands quite affordable, but limits their power
> if there is not a formula to up the caster level.

The calculation for wands is 750 gp * spell level * caster level.

So, a base wand of /cure light wounds/ is (750gp * 1 * 1 =) 750gp. A
base wand of /cure moderate wounds/ would be (750gp * 2 * 3 =) 4500gp.
You *could* buy a 10th-level wand of /cure light wounds/ for 7500gp, but
it's rather pointless (caps at d8+5 -- buy a 5th-level wand of /cure
moderate wounds/ and get 2d8+5, for the same price).


Keith
--
Keith Davies "Trying to sway him from his current kook-
keith.davies@kjdavies.org rant with facts is like trying to create
keith.davies@gmail.com a vacuum in a room by pushing the air
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