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Ms not in a hurry to support X86-64

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August 23, 2002 10:18:56 PM

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=5109

I dont not need to comments

The day i meet a goth queen that tell me Intel suck.I turn in a lemming to fill is need in hardware.

More about : hurry support x86

August 23, 2002 10:36:40 PM

Well Microsoft has never officially stated anything reguarding x86-64.

You will find nothing on MS website about x86-64 except in the court documents.

Intel dropped development of Java in many areas, most of you have already experianced the Virtual Java Machine removal from MS.

According to the Documents, Intel has made a deal with MS for MS not to announce x86-64 untill Intel is ready to screw AMD. Intel has kept their side of the deal by dropping various areas of java development.

Even a higher chance that MS does not want to show that they favor AMD in any way as Sanders provides court testimony.

Im sure development will continue, just behind closed doors.

You are limited to what your mind can perceive.
August 23, 2002 10:50:32 PM

The big deal is still a big rumor.Anyway it burst some illusion bubble of underdog fan.

The day i meet a goth queen that tell me Intel suck.I turn in a lemming to fill is need in hardware.
Related resources
August 23, 2002 10:55:59 PM

you just made an amd fanboy cried.

lol...

sorry, but so many people was hoping for that x86-64 windows so bad....ohoh

<font color=green> there's more to life than increasing its speed -Ghandi</font color=green>
August 23, 2002 10:57:42 PM

juin, is it me or does your sig sound wierd?

<font color=green> there's more to life than increasing its speed -Ghandi</font color=green>
August 23, 2002 11:16:31 PM

MS droped virtual machine... not Intel.
the deal was about intel droping java support in thier processors.
anyway if Intel drops Java it will really really hurt it. it will create an anti Intel movment and I am sure many will drop Intel products. Java is considered by many - and praticlarly the open source community as the best thing since sliced breed. though I don't like it much (the syntex at least).

.net seems to have NUMA support - and IA64 is an SMP design. only Hammer and DEC Alpha EV7 (also not yet rellesed) use NUMA design - so it will support one of them. and Alpha wasn't listed in this document either. I think x86-64 support is scheduled to be annaounced in due time. and that might not be this time.


This post is best viewed with common sense enabled
August 24, 2002 12:13:17 AM

Well, to be fair, Java has never ran too well on x86 platforms. The Virtual Machine functions best in an ISA designed for it. That said, IA-64 seems to be a very Java-friendly ISA. It's design calls for software to direct its optimizations. This is perfect for Java programs.
Either way, as I'm sure I've mentioned before, OS support is nice and all, but M$ is not the final say as far as the market x86-64 will be most useful in. That is, the workstation and low-end server market. There are plenty of people using their own proprietary OS's or variations of the *nix OS's running workstations and those will support x86-64 just fine. Having M$ officially "support" x86-64 is and was nothing more than just a publicity stunt. There really is very little benefit you can receive by having the OS rewritten for it. So I wouldn't worry too much about it.

"We are Microsoft, resistance is futile." - Bill Gates, 2015.
August 24, 2002 12:29:44 AM

M$ is officially supporting the Itanium line, and they aren't the only ones. There are several Linux companies that have jumped on-board as well. As for Hammer support? As far as I can tell, not much if anything is official in terms of support.

Knowledge is the key to understanding
August 24, 2002 12:31:42 AM

I think MS will incresengly become a big player in the server market praticulrly low/mid end server market - the OS and kernel are good - very good by now. an MS can through enugth money and publicty to have its way in the server market (and most other markets aswell).

as for workstation - low end workstation uses alot of MS today for photo editing, video editing low end CAD and such windows 200 does that. high end workstations uses property 64bit solutions like HP-UX.

I think microsoft supporting x86-64 is very importent for AMD. not only in terms of ISA but also in proper multi-processing support.

This post is best viewed with common sense enabled
August 24, 2002 12:37:04 AM

"I think MS will incresengly become a big player in the server market praticulrly low/mid end server market"

Considering how much one of those OS's costs, I would say no. Linux is already taking a firm foothold in the server market - mostly because it's not very expensive.

Knowledge is the key to understanding
August 24, 2002 12:58:26 AM

a low/mid end server with dual CPUs and maybe a scsi drive or two would cost about 10 times the OS. and that is w/o including the cost of supporting such a server... the disrebuters of linux based OSs (like redhat) don't provied free support. thats where the "real" money is concerning server OSs.

This post is best viewed with common sense enabled
August 24, 2002 1:12:08 AM

Thx correction, badly worded. That was part of the java shift taking place. Not sure if MS is working a side deal with SUN or what direction Java is actually going. Many people are wondering what is going on, this includes third party developers who are getting left out in the cold.

AMD licensed NUMA from SGI last year, AMD has rights to develop on NUMA for the hammer.

You are limited to what your mind can perceive.
August 24, 2002 2:34:38 AM

Considering applications can work in 64-bit mode independent of the OS, I'd say M$'s support is really nothing but a publicity stunt. Not saying it won't be helpful, but it really won't bring about any actual benefits.

"We are Microsoft, resistance is futile." - Bill Gates, 2015.
August 24, 2002 2:46:54 AM

Applications can not work in 64bit mode independent of the OS.

This post is best viewed with common sense enabled
August 24, 2002 3:43:49 AM

"a low/mid end server with dual CPUs and maybe a scsi drive or two would cost about 10 times the OS. and that is w/o including the cost of supporting such a server... the disrebuters of linux based OSs (like redhat) don't provied free support. thats where the "real" money is concerning server OSs."

Dude, why would a low end server have a dual processor and use SCSI? I saw a Dell ad for a server that cost just as much as the OS (it didn't have an OS, but win2k server was listed as an upgrade) and it was a low end P3 server (price for the hardware : $799. Price for the OS: $799).

Knowledge is the key to understanding
August 24, 2002 4:08:00 AM

Applications can switch the CPU to 64-bit mode using an x86 prefix tag. It really doesn't matter what the OS is doing. The application can easily switch the processor to 64-bit mode for each instruction.

"We are Microsoft, resistance is futile." - Bill Gates, 2015.
August 24, 2002 4:19:19 AM

IIB said:
Quote:
MS droped virtual machine... not Intel.
the deal was about intel droping java support in thier processors.

This is actually incorrect. One count Microsoft was convicted of (and this count, amongst several others, was upheld and expanded by the appeals court) of illegally maintaining their monopoly and setting barriers to entry by pressuring Intel to drop development of a high perfomance x86 JRE (JAVA runtime-environment) with extremely fast JIT (Just-in time) compiler functionality in exchange for M$ dropping direct support for AMD's original 3DNow! enhancments.

History Lesson:
When Java was first introduced, it ran extremely slowly on most platforms. Then Microsoft signed on - to much fanfare. This was at the height of the browser wars. Microsoft developed a high performance JRE for Internet Explorer that blew the doors off Netscape and just about every other platform. Soon, however, it became apparent that M$ was being devious. Their JRE didn't follow SUN's spec precisely and had additional "enhancements" that only worked with M$ OSes and under IE. M$ then introduced their infamous J++ JAVA IDE and compiler that had an option to compile "with" M$ enhancements for pure M$/IE environments or "without" for heterogenous environments. Developers soon found out, however, that "without" compiled JAVA apps just didn't seem to work as advertised.

Enter Intel: with the industry under significant pressure to get JAVA performing as advertised - i.e. adequate or better performance and cross-platform applications - Intel announced that it was developing a high-performance JRE that would rival and out-perform M$'s - and would support all major x86 browsers and OSes.

Enter M$: AMD was just introducing its new (at the time) K6 and K6-2 line of processors and had requested that M$ support the new 3DNOW! enhancements directly in the next OS. M$ - not wanting JAVA to succeed (a whole different long story) - approached Intel and threatened to announce support for AMD if Intel continued developement on its JRE. Initially Intel refused to stop but eventually caved.

<b>Now, back to the initial topic</b>

Microsoft has contractually agreed to develop a version of MS Windows (.NET most likely) that supports AMD's x86-64. They are almost certainly holding it over Intel's collective head while trying to extract consessions from both AMD and Intel (like Palladuim support, etc.). A combined team of AMD and MS developers is working on this version of MS Windows.

One of AMD's biggest marketing problems is their tendency to tip-toe around the really big issues (corporate business penetration, MS support, T-bred problems, etc.). This has GOT to change and soon or AMD will get nowhere with the Hammer. Yes, AMD has just recently "resolved" all three of these issues in a very small way - 1) HP just announced one (1) Compaq business PC with an AMD processor; 2) AMD announced MS support a few months ago; 3) and most recently, the T-Bred B was released. Still, AMD is tip-toeing around Intel.

AMD needs to break out the marketing dollars and start a nationwide/worldwide TV and print campaign - even before the Hammer falls - even if they can't provide enough procs yet. Then, when the Procs are available, turn it up a notch. AMD needs consumers (and TV watching, Zine and NYT reading corporate executives) DEMANDING high performance Athlon and Opteron procs from their corporate PC and server vendors. Then, and only then, will vendors stop producing artificially inhibited (SDR instead of DDR, smaller HDDs, lower performing graphics processors, small screens, low max memory limits, etc.) "consumer" PCs based on AMD processors.

If the thought I thought I thought had been the thought I thought, I wouldn't have thought so much.
August 24, 2002 6:20:35 AM

Quote:
AMD needs to break out the marketing dollars and start a nationwide/worldwide TV and print campaign - even before the Hammer falls - even if they can't provide enough procs yet. Then, when the Procs are available, turn it up a notch. AMD needs consumers (and TV watching, Zine and NYT reading corporate executives) DEMANDING high performance Athlon and Opteron procs from their corporate PC and server vendors. Then, and only then, will vendors stop producing artificially inhibited (SDR instead of DDR, smaller HDDs, lower performing graphics processors, small screens, low max memory limits, etc.) "consumer" PCs based on AMD processors.

<rehash>
Well, AMD did that once, and it didn't work out so well for them (remember the Athlon+P3+train commercial from early Slot A days?). General consumers saw the commercial, got wind of AMD's superior product, and went seeking it in droves. AMD sold out within a few months, and this angered many people (especially OEMs). The only reason OEMs didn't immediately drop AMD support was because Intel was having similar problems meeting demand at the time (due to serious P3 production problems).
</rehash>

OEMs aren't going to take that sort of treatment from AMD now--not when Intel effectively has an overstock and can't seem to generate as much demand as they'd like. AMD can't start another ad campaign until they have the production capacity to keep up with Intel. They're working on that, but it's an uphill battle.

As for me personally, I don't care too much whether MS supports Hammer or not. I wouldn't be running Windows anyways--besides which, it's looking like x86-64 support won't really be necessary for the Hammer to outpace the P4. Itanium may defeat Hammer in absolute performance--but there still doesn't seem to be a tremendous amount of interest in Itanium. 64-bit processing just isn't a terribly large necessity.

<A HREF="http://skarpsey.dyndns.org/" target="_new">Skarpsey</A>
August 24, 2002 8:47:15 AM

I was reading that Sun is working with the open source community with Java. They are going to have an open source Java, which will make things interesting.

I'll see if I can find it. Work is keeping me busy as hell, looks like I have set of 40 systems that will be on order for my deparment....

Sometimes being a one man department sucks.......*G* but I can't complain all that much, so many toys I get to play with at work......:) 


MeldarthX
August 24, 2002 5:03:18 PM

I am so sorry dearling

The day i meet a goth queen that tell me Intel suck.I turn in a lemming to fill is need in hardware.
August 24, 2002 5:06:16 PM

MS droped virtual machine... not Intel.
the deal was about intel droping java support in thier processors.
anyway if Intel drops Java it will really really hurt it. it will create an anti Intel movment and I am sure many will drop Intel products. Java is considered by many - and praticlarly the open source community as the best thing since sliced breed. though I don't like it much (the syntex at least).


It dont need to drop it juste cut marketing support and compiler optimization and the job will be done.Also when the coporation X come just give them the advice that java is maybe not as good as they want.

The day i meet a goth queen that tell me Intel suck.I turn in a lemming to fill is need in hardware.
August 24, 2002 5:15:03 PM

Quote:
AMD can't start another ad campaign until they have the production capacity to keep up with Intel. They're working on that, but it's an uphill battle.

I do remember the frustration and I agree that AMD needs to have stable, scaled production capacity available in and outside of Dresden to attract the top tier OEMs in a major way - and they ARE working on that, but they need to increase consumer and corp. exec. awareness and demand BEFORE they end up permanently relegated to the "value consumer" PC lines. Except for the relatively miniscule enthusiast crowd that build their own/for friends, this is what AMD's image is.

AMD's problem with the previous campaign was that they pulled out instead of pushing harder and ramping up production. They need to create demand for the product, then increase production, then create more demand for their product, then increase...ad nauseum.

When you watch the trailers/teasers for upcoming movies at the cinema, it very purposefully creates frustration/anticipation in the audience - especially for much anticipated features like LOTR, SW, Spiderman, Hulk, etc. A "coming soon" type of worldwide ad campaign would do wonders for AMD's image and get the word out to the OEMs that the product was "in demand."

Quote:
Itanium may defeat Hammer in absolute performance--but there still doesn't seem to be a tremendous amount of interest in Itanium. 64-bit processing just isn't a terribly large necessity.

[rehash]
The corporate/education/scientific demand for 64-bit is very real and very large - it has up until now simply been the domain of the "big-tin" players. Most consumers and corporate users have no need for it. Itanium hasn't done well simply because the other vendors have entrenched systems and apps. Changing out these systems can and does cost millions. CIOs have to balance hardware and software costs (a small piece of the pie) with other TCO issues - reliability chief among them. Intel based servers are not well known for their "crash-proof" nature compared to IBM and Sun big tin. Itanium offers another alternative, but without the apps and vendor support from traditional big tin OEMs - other than HP and now Compaq - it will be difficult for corporate shops to justify the switch.

Opteron, on the other hand, provides an excellent upgrade path for those smaller or more distributed shops currently hosting their mission critical apps on 32-bit x86 hardware. AMD is providing an upgrade path to easily convert those existing apps/systems to 64-bit capabilities and performance. Maybe the performance won't (or maybe it will) match Itanium levels, but if I had a choice to upgrade a system incrementaly, vs. a complete yank and bank, I'd choose incrementaly almost every time. Completely new systems introduce completely new problems and customers don't want it.
[/rehash]

If the thought I thought I thought had been the thought I thought, I wouldn't have thought so much.
August 24, 2002 11:58:05 PM

It will all play out by the end of this year when the Opteron ships.

It is a fact that Intel made a deal with MS, the deal was for first announce of x86-64 over AMD. Why Java was the bargaining chip remains somewhat unseen (something MS would want very badly). SUN has the most to gain from exclusive Java rights that they want.

BTW, the VJM from SUN kinda sucks. simple stuff like text size is off, soo small it is unreadable.

Intel gave up billions to block x86-64? by giving up Java to MS. from the court documents we know what Intel gets and MS is staying 100% to the deal.

<A HREF="http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/legal/apr02/04-16ntr..." target="_new">Court documents</A>, search the page for Yamhill and read in that area. Good stuff that shows how corporate america is run. This is all under oath so it should be the truth...

You are limited to what your mind can perceive.
August 25, 2002 1:38:03 AM

Quote:
I was reading that Sun is working with the open source community with Java. They are going to have an open source Java, which will make things interesting.

It's out there; I've compiled it. You have to poke around on their site to get the source, and it's primarily intended for Solaris, Linux, and other systems with gcc. It's a bit of a hassle to deal with, and I ended up reshaping my head against the wall to make it work with Mozilla.

As Java engines go, it's OK, but not great. At least I have it where it installs easily now.

<A HREF="http://skarpsey.dyndns.org/" target="_new">Skarpsey</A>
August 25, 2002 1:51:35 AM

Quote:
I do remember the frustration and I agree that AMD needs to have stable, scaled production capacity available in and outside of Dresden to attract the top tier OEMs in a major way - and they ARE working on that, but they need to increase consumer and corp. exec. awareness and demand BEFORE they end up permanently relegated to the "value consumer" PC lines. Except for the relatively miniscule enthusiast crowd that build their own/for friends, this is what AMD's image is.

AMD's problem with the previous campaign was that they pulled out instead of pushing harder and ramping up production. They need to create demand for the product, then increase production, then create more demand for their product, then increase...ad nauseum.

When you watch the trailers/teasers for upcoming movies at the cinema, it very purposefully creates frustration/anticipation in the audience - especially for much anticipated features like LOTR, SW, Spiderman, Hulk, etc. A "coming soon" type of worldwide ad campaign would do wonders for AMD's image and get the word out to the OEMs that the product was "in demand."

The problem with that analogy is that all movie producers have to do to meet extra demand is produce more projector media (i.e. LaserDiscs, DVDs, or film reels), pay a comparatively small royalty to the movie authors, and license the media to cinemas. Not cheap for a consumer, but for someone with Hollywood-level resources, it's chump change, and the profits from it are immediate and enormous. Sure, there's the cost of producing the movie, but that's a one-time initial overhead that ends up being the same whether tickets sell well or not.

AMD can't expand production so easily. To do anything like that, they have to build and equip more fabs (definitely time consuming, and not a chump-change matter), and/or offload some of their production to other fabs like UMC (again, not always practical--very few companies have the advanced fabbing technology it takes to produce Athlons or Hammers). And since there's not an obvious, immediate profit to offset the enormous cost of building fabs, AMD has a tough time justifying such actions to their shareholders.

<A HREF="http://skarpsey.dyndns.org/" target="_new">Skarpsey</A>
August 27, 2002 8:14:32 PM

MS still supports virtual machine. They are bring'n back "official" support when sp1 for xp comes out. I do beleive you have to order the stink'n cd but why worry im registered with technet so meh.

http://www.microsoft.com/java/xp.htm

<font color=blue>Just some advice from your friendly neighborhood blue man </font color=blue> :smile: <P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by spud on 08/27/02 04:15 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
August 27, 2002 11:43:46 PM

I just read the part that jerry it so happy because he got 20% of the market sorry baby now at 15%

At the end i have speak with a horny lady
August 27, 2002 11:53:49 PM

Q. You said to Mr. Gates, as you continued the call, that you

12 wanted to talk about whether Microsoft would go public with an

13 announcement of Microsoft's public support for Hammer which was

14 important to AMD; correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And then in this call you told Mr. Gates that it's

17 important to you that Microsoft go public with the fact that

18 AMD has Microsoft's support on Hammer; correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And then you reminded Mr. Gates in this call that a year

21 earlier you had asked for Microsoft's public support for

22 Hammer; correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And in that year that had followed since the last time you

25 had seen Mr. Gates until that phone call on February 8th in






3761



1 which he asked you to be a witness, Microsoft had not yet

2 announced the public support for Hammer; correct?

3 A. That's true, but that's irrelevant

I have also found that.

At the end i have speak with a horny lady
August 28, 2002 1:39:15 AM

States prosecutor asks Sanders (AMD CEO and co-founder) on the witness stand:
Quote:
You're familiar, are you not, with the issue in this case of Mr. Gates telling Intel that Microsoft would not support AMD, your company, if Intel would back off its work on a fast cross-platform Java. You're familiar with that, are you not?

I searched the above said page with "Java" and this was the first hit.

Lots more good stuff in the pages. long read

You are limited to what your mind can perceive.
August 28, 2002 5:46:59 AM

I like to point out that in the ''deal'' MS was not supporting sometiming in exchange of JAVA drop.We know that the something is held by AMD

According to J sander it a FP instruction (3Dnow)
According to the lawyer it a others sort of instruction.It not clear if that is really X86-64 maybe intel fear something helle.Anyway Intel is right in panic mode there do every improvement to beat AMD down i think that is due to the intro of K7 in late 99.

At the end i have speak with a horny lady
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
August 28, 2002 1:04:54 PM

Havent been here in -quite- a while.. Fugger, am I seeing ghosts, or have you actually stopped stumping AMD and critising the Hammer ? Maybe you have one at work to test with ?

On a side note:
>It will all play out by the end of this year when the
>Opteron ships.

Opteron wont ship before Q2 2003 I thought. Athlon64 (or whatever it will be called) might perhaps ship this year, though I suspect it will be announced, but not yet really available until Q103. Whatever, no opterons this year for sure.

Juin: after all this time, your english still hasnt improved one bit. One would think reading thousands of English posts here would help at least somewhat.. no ?

= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my wife. =
August 28, 2002 2:10:39 PM

Fugger has changed a bit, but I am not completly unsuspecting.

I thought juin had improved, sometimes he has been forming full phrases. But yeah you can't help but wonder if they ever took english classes! Still he is brave to come here and write like that despite the criticizing!

Welcome back man, recently we got MANY people we used to see in the past, hanging out again, very nice!

--
When buying an AthlonXP, please make sure the bus is at 133MHZ, or you will get a lower speed!
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
August 28, 2002 2:29:21 PM

Thanks, I was curious if this forum would have grown up a bit. I see Mat still having long toes, but actually plans to buy a P4 (!). Meltdown hasnt changed a bit, thank God. IS Raynstonn still hanging out here ?

Actually the main reason I came here, was to see if there where any threads on the Bapco/vansmith/Toms blurb thing. I am amazed no one seems to care ! Toms blurb was one of the most arrogant, and sad editorials I have read in a LONG time. I never liked Tom a lot, but this one was really over the top. Especially at the end, with this HUGE picture of himself, posing before another picture of himself. Like they say: a picture says more than a thousand words... man, what an ego..

= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my wife. =
August 28, 2002 3:37:45 PM

You got wires crossed somewhere, The deal was for MS not to annouce x86-64 for AMD first, Intel would drop Java. If you keep reading there is more details on this agreement when the prosecuter probes more.

I will dig out some links for you later Juin, OMW to work now.




You are limited to what your mind can perceive.
August 28, 2002 5:35:02 PM

I have read it a second time and X86-64 is mention only 1 time.They never say clearly maybe because the MS laywer will have objection saying that is speculation

At the end i have speak with a horny lady
August 28, 2002 5:58:00 PM

There are many pages, just change the date in the URL

You are limited to what your mind can perceive.
August 28, 2002 6:45:11 PM

The threads are in the OTHERS forum. Almost everyone appreciated that editorial btw, I don't know why you didn't.

Raystonn, ever since he posted how Tbred sucks at OCing, never came back. I can almost consider him a troll now, because all he did was post something, despite being true at THE TIME, anti-AMD, then ran away. Truly SAD.

Yes we have grown, the forum is being improved as of now by Fredi, speed-ups, moderators, all in the plans!

--
When buying an AthlonXP, please make sure the bus is at 133MHZ, or you will get a lower speed!
!