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Can I Upgrade to P4?

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August 26, 2002 4:43:34 PM

Hello! - First time poster, been visiting site for over 1.5 years.
I'm a newbie PC hardware enthusiast.
I currently have a PII 350 DIY PC with an ASUS P2B AGP mobo with the Intel 440BX chipset.
I just read on your site that Intel has just released a P4 2.5 & 2.6 processor that runs on a 100MHz FSB. I believe my mobo also has a 100MHz FSB.
Does this mean that I can upgrade to a P4 2.5/2.6 on my existing mobo or am I doing some wishfull thinking?

Any help is always appreciated!

More about : upgrade

August 26, 2002 5:17:39 PM

Sorry to disappoint you but you'll have to forget about any P4 with that mobo. Best case scenario is a FC-PGA P3 Coppermine with a Slotket adapter with onboard voltage regulator.
You're right. First generation P4 required a FSB of 100Mhz, but Quad Pumped to 400Mhz, a speed the mobo doesn't support which requires a whole new configuration. Also, there are no Slot-to-Socket adapters for the P4.
You'll need to change your mobo if you want a P4.


<font color=red>A platform is not an oil rig.</font color=red>
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August 26, 2002 5:37:13 PM

The fastest CPU you can run in that board is the PIII 1000EB, unless you get an ultra expensive Powerleap IP3/T adapter, which would allow the 1.4GHz PIII Tualatin.

You would otherwize have to ditch the motherboard and power supply, and would be well advised to dump the memory as well, in order to go faster.

<font color=blue>You're posting in a forum with class. It may be third class, but it's still class!</font color=blue>
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August 26, 2002 5:46:07 PM

Thanks Oracle -

Yeah - I probably have to do a dramatic upgrade in the not too distant future. I just switched from 98 to XP home.
It runs okay on my PII 350 with 128MB of PC100 RAM but I'm definetly noticing some "sluggishness" that wasn't there before. XP is a RAM hog - without running any apps it uses around 100MB. I don't do alot of gaming - just the SIMS which isn't too graphic intensive. Maybe I'll just plunk a 128MB DIMM in there for now.
Thanks for the response!
August 26, 2002 6:05:48 PM

Yes. That would be your cheapest solution for now, plus you'll probably notice an increase in speed.
I was once in your situation (I shoved the problem in my wife's office space at home :smile: ). Originally, I assembled a system around a P2B, with a P2-400Mhz and 128 Mb PC100. I upgraded it a year later to P3-600Mhz (Katmai core) and switched my PC100 for a Crucial 256Mb PC133 CL2. I noticed a great deal of improvement. Today, my wife is running it under Win2K smoothly.
So, sticking another 128Mb in your current system would be very useful (especially under WinXP) and your best option (in case you might ask, PC133 will work with another PC100 module, it will just run slower at the same speed of the PC100). Upgrading the CPU with your current mobo would not come cheap as Katmai CPUs are quite scarce and prices of other P3s are quite high for the performance (plus the fact that you'll need a Slotket adapter).
That said, a budget upgrade could involve a Duron CPU with an integrated-everything mobo (like the nForce or nForce2) and 256Mb PC2700 DDR SDRAM. People might have other opinions about this last piece of info, but that is what I would recommend for a budget upgrade.
Good luck!


<font color=red>A platform is not an oil rig.</font color=red>
August 26, 2002 6:57:10 PM

With an FCPGA2 board I can also run a tually 1.4 right?


If all else fails, Go further :) 
August 26, 2002 7:14:30 PM

Thanks for the info Oracle!
I was unaware that I could mix RAM speeds. Since I wouldn't see any difference in speed, why not simply drop in a 256MB PC100 DIMM? Also - I've noticed in my search for RAM - what is the difference between CL2 and CL3 when it comes to purchasing RAM?
August 26, 2002 7:18:46 PM

Thanks Crashman for the feedback. That PIII 1000EB sounds like a pretty nice upgrade!
How much do they run? In your opinion, how is the ratio of price to performance? - In other words - would my performance increase be significant to justify the cost of this PIII processor? - or - should I jus wait and build a new box down the road?
August 26, 2002 9:14:08 PM

Well, I suggested PC133 because PC100 may be more difficult to find and you might have less trouble running a PC133 module at CL2 @ 100Mhz.
CL = Cas Latency (where CAS= Column Address Strobe).
Think of the memory as a spreadsheet. Now the row address is processed first, then its the column's turn. Now (roughly said) the wait period between both is the CL. CL2 would be a clock cycle of 2, thus CL2 is faster than CL3.
At 100Mhz, CL2 represents 0,00000002 second (if I get my numbers right).


<font color=red>A platform is not an oil rig.</font color=red><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Oracle on 08/26/02 05:15 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
August 26, 2002 10:48:15 PM

Thanks Oracle - that's good info!
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August 26, 2002 11:46:01 PM

LOL, FCPGA2, you don't even know what that means yet, but I'll tell you, because it's the most misused discription I've ever seen.

I have an FCPGA2 CPU in my board. It has ran on various BX and i815 boards with no need for special adapters. Hard to believe but true, it even said FC-PGA2 on the retail BOX. It also said 1.75v. You know what that makes it? I'll tell you then.

My FC-PGA2 processor is a Coppermine. Yep, that's right, I also had a Tualatin Celeron, and that processor required a special Tualatin adapter for my older boards, while the FC-PGA2 Coppermine did not. So what made my Coppermine FC-PGA2, you thought that meant Tualatin right? I'll tell you.

FC-PGA2, on Intel's side, means nothing more than that the processor has a heat spreader. ALL of Intel's recently produced CPU's, even Coppermines, had one. So it has nothing to do with the core, at least from Intel's side.

But many VENDERS use FC-PGA2 as an indicator of whether or not it's a Tualatin. What this means is that a lot of Coppermine PIII 1000EB's are being mislabled as Tualatins by these ill-informed venders, and they even go so far as to say .13 micron, even though the CPU they are selling is .18 micron if it's a PIII 1000EB. How did this happen? I'll tell you...

When Intel started FC-PGA2 processor production, they were all Tualatins at that time. Later they started putting heat spreaders on the Coppermines as well, and so labled those as FC-PGA2 as well. But motherboard manufacturers had already labled their boards "FC-PGA2 compatable" to mean "Tualatin Compatable", because they were looking for an easy way to define the new processors. You see, Intel does not indicate in any way whatsoever what core is used on the outside of their box, or even the processor itself! The only way you can tell with some models, such as the 256k PIII's, is by the voltage, which IS marked on both the box and the CPU!

So the answer is YES, you CAN run a tualatin processor on a board labled FC-PGA2, but that FC-PGA2 does not mean tualatin!

Later I might just scan my box lid to proove it.

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August 27, 2002 12:42:31 AM

It's around $120, a little pricey, but worth it to avoid having to rebuild your PC IMO. You would need to run your bus speed at 133MHz, which requires PC133 SDRAM and a resonably recent graphics card (GeForce 2 or newer, Radeon or newer).

Baring that, you could run a Celeron 1000 in it, that one is cheaper and runs at the slower bus speed. It gives you about PIII 850 performance, which would still be a noticeable increase.

<font color=blue>You're posting in a forum with class. It may be third class, but it's still class!</font color=blue>
August 27, 2002 4:52:08 AM

It's not only electricly totally incompatible, but it's also PHYSICLY incompatible.

Knowledge is the key to understanding
August 27, 2002 1:20:57 PM

Thanks for the info Crashman -
Bear with the Newbie if you would -
So, to increase my FSB speed from 100 to 133MHz, all I have to do is drop PC133 RAM in there? I just swapped out my graphics card with an NVIDIA GeForce 2 MX 400. I really do not want to build a new PC at this time. How can I tweak this baby?
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August 27, 2002 4:30:18 PM

Excellent! Yes, you only need PC133 now to run the 1000EB.

Now for the tricky parts: Your board was offered in several revisions. All supported the 133MHz FSB. But Rev 1.0 only supported voltages of 1.80v or more. <b>BUT THE COPPERMINE STILL WORKS ON THE REV 1.0 BOARD</b> by raising the detected voltage of the CPU from 1.75v to 1.80v. I can walk you through that, it's an easy thing to do.

Now if you have the Rev. 1.2 board or later, you're all set, these supported much lower voltages and don't need the modification mentioned above.

I suggest a Socket 370 on a Slot 1 adapter card (aka Slotket). Several reasons for that. First, the PIII Slot 1 came on the SECC2 package for which no good coolers were made. So using a Socket adapter allows you to use Socket type coolers. Intel's retail boxed cooler is more than adequate.

The other main reason I suggest the Socket version on an adapter is that it's easier to modify the detected voltage on the socket than on the slot, should you need to. Alternatively in such cases, their were slotkets made with voltage control jumpers on them, BUT these are very hard to find.

<font color=blue>You're posting in a forum with class. It may be third class, but it's still class!</font color=blue>
August 27, 2002 7:39:04 PM

Thanks Crashman!
So for basically very little money, and a little tweaking, I can turn my 350 into a 1GHz. Sounds good to me! Plus, I'll learn a little something in the process. Are there any articles on THG that go into the project that we're talking about?
August 27, 2002 7:58:28 PM

Intel DID make 1 GHtz Slot1 P3's too. They're hard to find unless you go looking on the internet.

Knowledge is the key to understanding
August 27, 2002 8:16:41 PM

Another question for you -

I just looked at the online literature for my mobo. I states that my board can support chips from PII 233MHz - PIII 600MHz. FSB from 66MHz to 100MHz. How can the FSB speed be changed by using faster RAM and better video card? Isn't this sort of "set" in the chipset?
August 27, 2002 8:32:09 PM

Since your motherboard documentation says that you can only go up to a 600 MHtz P3, I wouldn't go past that. The documentation might have been updated, so I'd go on their webiste and check to see if it has.
The FSB speed is determined SOLEY by the CPU. It wouldn't be changed if you put in a better video card or faster RAM.

Knowledge is the key to understanding
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August 28, 2002 12:57:22 AM

You're not telling me anything I didn't know. They made them in both 100MHz and 133MHz FSB versions.

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August 28, 2002 12:59:52 AM

Well, I don't know of anyone who did an article on it, but I did make a guide for what pins to use, if you need to modify the voltage (depending on the board revision). You can check that at <A HREF="http://www.crashman.dns2go.com" target="_new">http://www.crashman.dns2go.com&lt;/A>.

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August 28, 2002 1:01:13 AM

Oh, I even mentioned it.
Quote:
I suggest a Socket 370 on a Slot 1 adapter card (aka Slotket). Several reasons for that. First, the PIII Slot 1 came on the SECC2 package for which no good coolers were made. So using a Socket adapter allows you to use Socket type coolers. Intel's retail boxed cooler is more than adequate.

The other main reason I suggest the Socket version on an adapter is that it's easier to modify the detected voltage on the socket than on the slot, should you need to. Alternatively in such cases, their were slotkets made with voltage control jumpers on them, BUT these are very hard to find.


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August 28, 2002 1:22:33 AM

They simply quit updating the information in the manual and on the website when they quite working with that board. Because only the later revisions supported the lower voltage, they listed up to 600MHz meaning the early version, not later Coppermine versions which were also available at 500, 533, and 600MHz. And they didn't mention whether "B" versions would work. In fact, if you look hard enough you'll find there is a whole bunch of stuff they didn't mention. But the board supports them all. Later revisions supported all Coppermines by default, while earlier versions require that simple voltage detection mod. You'll also want the latest BIOS.

As for multipliers, there is no such worry on PIII systems, the multiplier is locked on the CPU itself. Your particular board is known to have a BIOS issue with multipliers higher than 11x, but that certainly wouldn't be a problem using the 7.5x133 PIII 1000EB, or even the slower 10x100 PIII 1000E.

You might find <A HREF="http://www.ocworkbench.com/hardware/asus/133mhz.htm" target="_new">This article</A> helpfull should others try to discourage you. Another article <A HREF="http://www.anandtech.com/showdoc.html?i=34&p=1" target="_new">HERE</A> shows you the proper jumper settings and gives you more encouragement.

<font color=blue>You're posting in a forum with class. It may be third class, but it's still class!</font color=blue>
August 28, 2002 3:22:47 PM

Thanks Crashman - those are some good articles!
!