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Synergies for Craft and Profession skills

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July 18, 2005 7:38:12 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Craft and Profession skills have no synergies, either into or out of
them. If they did, perhaps PCs wouldn't be so /very/ reluctant to put
ranks into these skills.

Surely there should be some? 5 ranks in Craft (calligraphy) should
give +2 to forgery, for instance, and ranks in Handle Animal should
give a bonus to Profession (Teamster).

Some tentative thoughts.

---> means "5 ranks gives +2 bonus"


Crafts

Calligraphy ---> Forgery
Gemcutting ---> Appraise (gems and jewelry only)
Locksmithing ---> Open Lock and Disable Device
Shipmaking ---> Profession (Sailor)
Stonemasonry ---> Knowledge (Dungeoneering)
Stonemasonry <--- Knowledge (architecture)
Trapmaking ---> Disable Device


Professions

Apothecary <--> Heal
Driver <--- Handle Animal
Farmer <--> Knowledge (Nature)
Fisher <--> Knowledge (Nature)
Guide ---> Knowledge (local)
Herbalist ---> Apothecary and Heal
Herder ---> Handle Animal and Knowledge (Nature)
Hunter ---> Survival
Innkeeper ---> Sense Motive
Lawyer ---> Bluff
Lawyer <--- Diplomacy
Miner <--> Dungeoneering
Scribe <--- Calligraphy
Scribe ---> Forgery
Teamster <--- Handle Animal

What think you?

Waldo
Anonymous
July 18, 2005 10:32:09 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Waldo" <peggoliathy@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1121683092.118630.294950@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...

> ---> means "5 ranks gives +2 bonus"


I'll add my own note: < -- > means the synergy goes both ways.

Changes only-



> Crafts
>
> Calligraphy ---> Forgery


Calligraphy < -- > Forgery.

It seems to me that either should improve the other.



> Locksmithing ---> Open Lock and Disable Device


Locksmithing < -- > Open Lock and Disable Device

Both ways again.




> Shipmaking ---> Profession (Sailor)


No. Unrelated skills. Knowing how to build a ship tells you nothing about
working on one (which is mostly manipulating rigging).

Maybe I would accept a synergy from Profession (sailor) to ship design,
because working on a ship will give you experience with good and bad
designs.

This is near to my heart, I'm a big Aubrey/Maturin fan. (read the books
(Master and Commander, et al), you'll like them. They're age of sail in and
around the Napoleonic Wars)



> Stonemasonry <--- Knowledge (architecture)


No, different skills. Maybe the other way around. Maybe.



> Trapmaking ---> Disable Device


And vice versa. If yo've seen a lot of traps you can design better ones.



> Apothecary <--> Heal


Ok, maybe my new notation wasn't that new...




> Farmer <--> Knowledge (Nature)



I'd say one way on this one. Knowledge (nature) -- > Farmer. Farms aren't
really that much like the natural world.



> Fisher <--> Knowledge (Nature)


No.



> Guide ---> Knowledge (local)


And vice versa.




> Herbalist ---> Apothecary and Heal


And vice versa.



> Herder ---> Handle Animal and Knowledge (Nature)


I'd say Herder < -- > Handle Animal, but I wouldn't give the Knowledge
(nature) bonus.



> Hunter ---> Survival


Both ways.



> Innkeeper ---> Sense Motive


No.



> Lawyer ---> Bluff


Other way, for a TRIAL, not general lawyer stuff (which is mostly
contracts).



> Lawyer <--- Diplomacy


No. When it would come up it would be a straight Diplomacy check anyway.



> Miner <--> Dungeoneering


No.



> Scribe <--- Calligraphy


And vice versa.




> Scribe ---> Forgery


And vice versa.
Anonymous
July 18, 2005 10:57:55 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Waldo wrote:
> Craft and Profession skills have no synergies, either into or out of
> them. If they did, perhaps PCs wouldn't be so /very/ reluctant to put
> ranks into these skills.
>
> Surely there should be some? 5 ranks in Craft (calligraphy) should
> give +2 to forgery, for instance, and ranks in Handle Animal should
> give a bonus to Profession (Teamster).
>
> Some tentative thoughts.
>
> ---> means "5 ranks gives +2 bonus"
>
>
> Crafts
>
> Calligraphy ---> Forgery
> Gemcutting ---> Appraise (gems and jewelry only)
> Locksmithing ---> Open Lock and Disable Device
> Shipmaking ---> Profession (Sailor)
> Stonemasonry ---> Knowledge (Dungeoneering)
> Stonemasonry <--- Knowledge (architecture)
> Trapmaking ---> Disable Device
>
>
> Professions
>
> Apothecary <--> Heal
> Driver <--- Handle Animal
> Farmer <--> Knowledge (Nature)
> Fisher <--> Knowledge (Nature)
> Guide ---> Knowledge (local)
> Herbalist ---> Apothecary and Heal
> Herder ---> Handle Animal and Knowledge (Nature)
> Hunter ---> Survival
> Innkeeper ---> Sense Motive
> Lawyer ---> Bluff
> Lawyer <--- Diplomacy
> Miner <--> Dungeoneering
> Scribe <--- Calligraphy
> Scribe ---> Forgery
> Teamster <--- Handle Animal
>
> What think you?
>
> Waldo
>

These are fine house rules.

If a player came up with this I would allow it, but I would need a
significant mention in the character background to account for the
special synergy outside core rules. So, there developed some tradeoff,
like an opening for a plot hook. Otherwise, all the players will be
developing their own synergies and getting +2 bonuses all over the place.
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Anonymous
July 18, 2005 2:32:29 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Shawn Wilson wrote:
> Calligraphy < -- > Forgery.
> It seems to me that either should improve the other.
>
>
>
>
>>Locksmithing ---> Open Lock and Disable Device
>
>
>
> Locksmithing < -- > Open Lock and Disable Device
>
> Both ways again.
>
>
>
>
>
>>Shipmaking ---> Profession (Sailor)
>
>
>
> No. Unrelated skills. Knowing how to build a ship tells you nothing about
> working on one (which is mostly manipulating rigging).
>
> Maybe I would accept a synergy from Profession (sailor) to ship design,
> because working on a ship will give you experience with good and bad
> designs.
>
> This is near to my heart, I'm a big Aubrey/Maturin fan. (read the books
> (Master and Commander, et al), you'll like them. They're age of sail in and
> around the Napoleonic Wars)
>
>
>
>
>>Stonemasonry <--- Knowledge (architecture)
>
>
>
> No, different skills. Maybe the other way around. Maybe.
>
>
>
>
>>Trapmaking ---> Disable Device
>
>
>
> And vice versa. If yo've seen a lot of traps you can design better ones.
>
>
>
>
>>Apothecary <--> Heal
>
>
>
> Ok, maybe my new notation wasn't that new...
>
>
>
>
>
>>Farmer <--> Knowledge (Nature)
>
>
>
>
> I'd say one way on this one. Knowledge (nature) -- > Farmer. Farms aren't
> really that much like the natural world.
>
>
>
>
>>Fisher <--> Knowledge (Nature)
>
>
>
> No.
>
>
>
>
>>Guide ---> Knowledge (local)
>
>
>
> And vice versa.
>
>
>
>
>
>>Herbalist ---> Apothecary and Heal
>
>
>
> And vice versa.
>
>
>
>
>>Herder ---> Handle Animal and Knowledge (Nature)
>
>
>
> I'd say Herder < -- > Handle Animal, but I wouldn't give the Knowledge
> (nature) bonus.
>
>
>
>
>>Hunter ---> Survival
>
>
>
> Both ways.
>
>
>
>
>>Innkeeper ---> Sense Motive
>
>
>
> No.
>
>
>
>
>>Lawyer ---> Bluff
>
>
>
> Other way, for a TRIAL, not general lawyer stuff (which is mostly
> contracts).
>
>
>
>
>>Lawyer <--- Diplomacy
>
>
>
> No. When it would come up it would be a straight Diplomacy check anyway.
>
>
>
>
>>Miner <--> Dungeoneering
>
>
>
> No.
>
>
>
>
>>Scribe <--- Calligraphy
>
>
>
> And vice versa.
>
>
>
>
>
>>Scribe ---> Forgery
>
>
>
> And vice versa.
>
>

--
"... respect, all good works are not done by only good folk. For within these Trials, we
shall do what needs to be done."
--till next time, Jameson Stalanthas Yu -x- <<poetry.dolphins-cove.com>>
Anonymous
July 18, 2005 2:34:10 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Shawn Wilson wrote:
>>Innkeeper ---> Sense Motive
> No.

I'm trying to pin where did I see this ... maybe in the most recent Dungeon, where there
was this woman who was an innkeeper, and they said there was a synergy bonus "Sense Motive".
--
"... respect, all good works are not done by only good folk. For within these Trials, we
shall do what needs to be done."
--till next time, Jameson Stalanthas Yu -x- <<poetry.dolphins-cove.com>>
July 18, 2005 4:56:17 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Shawn Roske wrote:

> These are fine house rules.

Thank you.


> If a player came up with this I would allow it, but I would need a
> significant mention in the character background to account for the
> special synergy outside core rules. So, there developed some tradeoff,
> like an opening for a plot hook. Otherwise, all the players will be
> developing their own synergies and getting +2 bonuses all over the place.

I see the concern. I have to say, though, that if someone is willing
to sink 5 ranks into the (mostly despised and neglected) Craft and
Profession skills, I'm inclined to cut them a little slack.



Then the other Shawn, Shawn Wilson, wrote:


> > Locksmithing ---> Open Lock and Disable Device
>
> Locksmithing < -- > Open Lock and Disable Device
>
> Both ways again.

I'm less sure of that. Locks are locks, but breaking devices is
something else again.


> > Shipmaking ---> Profession (Sailor)
>
>
> No. Unrelated skills. Knowing how to build a ship tells you nothing about
> working on one (which is mostly manipulating rigging).

I think it might tell you enough to get a +2 bonus. You don't meet too
many naval architects who are utter lubbers, unable to sail a raft
across a pond.

That said, you may be right that it would more likely work the other
way.


> This is near to my heart, I'm a big Aubrey/Maturin fan.

Who isn't? What a pity the series was never finished.


> > Stonemasonry <--- Knowledge (architecture)
>
> No, different skills. Maybe the other way around. Maybe.

Of course, different skills, but if you understand architecture you'll
know at least a bit about stonework.


> > Trapmaking ---> Disable Device
>
> And vice versa. If yo've seen a lot of traps you can design better ones.

Probably so.


> > Farmer <--> Knowledge (Nature)
>
> I'd say one way on this one. Knowledge (nature) -- > Farmer. Farms aren't
> really that much like the natural world.

Yah, but the K(Nature) skill specifically includes things like "the
land, the weather and the seasons". I'm thinking 'Old Farmer's
Almanac' type stuff, not 'identify the strange plant'.


> > Fisher <--> Knowledge (Nature)
>
> No.

Sea fishing? Weather, tides, currents?


> > Guide ---> Knowledge (local)
>
> And vice versa.

Maybe. -- Or in a nonurban setting, synergizes with Survival.


> > Herder ---> Handle Animal and Knowledge (Nature)
>
>
> I'd say Herder < -- > Handle Animal, but I wouldn't give the Knowledge
> (nature) bonus.

I'm living in a country where there are still a lot of traditional
herdsmen. They move their flocks hundreds of miles in a year, up to
the high mountain pastures in summer and then back again. They spend
months at a time sleeping rough, keeping their herds in all sorts of
terrain and weather. They'd definitely get synergy in K(Nature), and
maybe in Survival too.


> > Hunter ---> Survival
>
> Both ways.

Could be.


> > Innkeeper ---> Sense Motive
>
> No.

Why not? Seems like a very natural synergy to me.


> > Lawyer ---> Bluff
>
> Other way, for a TRIAL, not general lawyer stuff (which is mostly
> contracts).

Sure, context sensitive. Mind, a trial lawyer would probably synergize
with Perform (Oratory) too.


> > Miner <--> Dungeoneering
>
> No.

When like every third dungeon is an abandoned mine? And even nonmine
dungeons usually have the same issues: drilling and digging, beams and
load bearing, ventilation, dangerous gases, water leakage... This one
seems so obvious, I wonder why anyone would forbid it.


Waldo
Anonymous
July 18, 2005 5:04:55 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Waldo wrote:
> Craft and Profession skills have no synergies, either into or out of
> them. If they did, perhaps PCs wouldn't be so /very/ reluctant to put
> ranks into these skills.

5 ranks in any Craft skill gives a +2 synergy bonus to Appraise checks on
items related to that skill.

Aside from that, I think it's reasonable for DMs to adjudicate bonuses on an
ad hoc basis - your examples are reasonable. The reason they're not pisted
specifically is that there is an almost unlimited range of possible Craft
and Profession skills, so no set of examples would be broad enough.

--
Mark.
Anonymous
July 18, 2005 7:02:40 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Waldo" <peggoliathy@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1121716577.388013.87160@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...


>> > Locksmithing ---> Open Lock and Disable Device
>>
>> Locksmithing < -- > Open Lock and Disable Device
>>
>> Both ways again.
>
> I'm less sure of that. Locks are locks, but breaking devices is
> something else again.


I figure, if you know how to break it you know better how to make it, and if
you know how to make it, you know better how to break it.



>> > Shipmaking ---> Profession (Sailor)
>>
>>
>> No. Unrelated skills. Knowing how to build a ship tells you nothing
>> about
>> working on one (which is mostly manipulating rigging).
>
> I think it might tell you enough to get a +2 bonus. You don't meet too
> many naval architects who are utter lubbers, unable to sail a raft
> across a pond.


Maybe not, but building a ship won't make you a better sailor. It won't
teach you knots or how to adjust the rigging or anything else sailors do.
The people who build the planes at Boeing don't know how to run them.



>> This is near to my heart, I'm a big Aubrey/Maturin fan.
>
> Who isn't? What a pity the series was never finished.


To me 'Blue at the Mizzen' was a worthwhile conclusion, even if he was
writing more. Aubrey is a real admiral (as opposed to a paper one, for the
rest of you) and will live happily ever after, Maturin has a shot at a
better woman than Diane. Sure not ever story is concluded, but that just
means the characters lives aren't over.



>> > Stonemasonry <--- Knowledge (architecture)
>>
>> No, different skills. Maybe the other way around. Maybe.
>
> Of course, different skills, but if you understand architecture you'll
> know at least a bit about stonework.


You'd know how to assemble it, but not how to cut it.



>> > Farmer <--> Knowledge (Nature)
>>
>> I'd say one way on this one. Knowledge (nature) -- > Farmer. Farms
>> aren't
>> really that much like the natural world.
>
> Yah, but the K(Nature) skill specifically includes things like "the
> land, the weather and the seasons". I'm thinking 'Old Farmer's
> Almanac' type stuff, not 'identify the strange plant'.


Eh. Difference of opinion.




>> > Fisher <--> Knowledge (Nature)
>>
>> No.
>
> Sea fishing? Weather, tides, currents?


I might go as far as Knowledge (nature) ---> Fisher, but not the other way.
Maybe give the other bonus in a sea environment. Fishing IS more like
hunting (which I grant the synergy to) than farming.

I changed my mind, I'll go from a 'no' to a 'maybe'.



>> > Guide ---> Knowledge (local)
>>
>> And vice versa.
>
> Maybe. -- Or in a nonurban setting, synergizes with Survival.


I'd say no to survival- different skills. But it really depends on the kind
of guide.



>> > Herder ---> Handle Animal and Knowledge (Nature)
>>
>>
>> I'd say Herder < -- > Handle Animal, but I wouldn't give the Knowledge
>> (nature) bonus.
>
> I'm living in a country where there are still a lot of traditional
> herdsmen. They move their flocks hundreds of miles in a year, up to
> the high mountain pastures in summer and then back again. They spend
> months at a time sleeping rough, keeping their herds in all sorts of
> terrain and weather. They'd definitely get synergy in K(Nature), and
> maybe in Survival too.


I'd say your herders have to make a lot of Knowledge (nature) checks and
thus buy the skill, but I wouldn't let Herder itself give the bonus.



>> > Innkeeper ---> Sense Motive
>>
>> No.
>
> Why not? Seems like a very natural synergy to me.


I think Sense Motive might be a useful skill for an Innkeeper to have
(maybe), but I don't think just being an innkeeper would make you better at
it.



>> > Lawyer ---> Bluff
>>
>> Other way, for a TRIAL, not general lawyer stuff (which is mostly
>> contracts).
>
> Sure, context sensitive. Mind, a trial lawyer would probably synergize
> with Perform (Oratory) too.


Definitely.



>> > Miner <--> Dungeoneering
>>
>> No.
>
> When like every third dungeon is an abandoned mine? And even nonmine
> dungeons usually have the same issues: drilling and digging, beams and
> load bearing, ventilation, dangerous gases, water leakage... This one
> seems so obvious, I wonder why anyone would forbid it.


Well, the description in the PHB (such as it is) is-

Dungeoneering (aberrations, caverns, oozes, spelunking)


Active mines tend not to have those things. (well, maybe they have caverns)
July 19, 2005 8:25:03 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Alien mind control rays made Waldo <peggoliathy@yahoo.com> write:
> Craft and Profession skills have no synergies, either into or out of
> them. If they did, perhaps PCs wouldn't be so /very/ reluctant to put
> ranks into these skills.

i give synergies from open lock into craft (locksmith), but not the
other way around. crafts and professions are things for simple,
peaceful NPCs, not for adventuring heroes!

another way to get a +2 bonus doesn't make it "character development".

--
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// \_\ -- Dude from DPAK
!