T-Bred +2700 to have 333 FSB

LED

Distinguished
Apr 28, 2002
511
0
18,980
<A HREF="http://www.digitimes.com/NewsShow/Article.asp?datePublish=2002/09/04&pages=04&seq=16" target="_new">http://www.digitimes.com/NewsShow/Article.asp?datePublish=2002/09/04&pages=04&seq=16</A>

Then Barton on the same FSB w/ additional cache.

This sig runs too hot.
 

Victory

Distinguished
Feb 17, 2002
247
0
18,680
well being the AMD 'fanboy' that I am, I'm glad they're upping the FSB, the downside is that it's still far behind the P4's. Hopefully at some point AMD will consider RDRAM as an alternative. Hell the P4 offers Sdram DDR and Rambus, AMD should do the same. Anyhow (with my fingers crossed) that the new 2700's will run in my KR7A board!!!!!


:cool: Save heating costs on your home, overclock your PC!!! :cool:
 

Quetzacoatl

Distinguished
Jan 30, 2002
1,790
0
19,780
Why the hell would you want to give the Athlon RDR? It doesn't require the high bandwidth from it, and the latency would lower performance compared to DDR. Radmbus is useless for AMD. AMD does have Sdr support, they have used it since the first Athlon and it is still supported. You aren't very educated...try searching before you post

Soon enough, Intel will make the i845s...imagine dual channel Sdram...*shudder*
 

nja469

Distinguished
Jun 23, 2002
632
0
18,980
RDRAM is on the way out once Dual channel ddr goes mainstream, plus it wouldn't make sense nor would it ever happen for athlons. As for DC DDR, I'm still sketchy on it all and have posted a thread in the chipsets forum for info on it. However it is clear from intel's '03 chipset roadmaps that RDRAM isn't in their future, they don't offer anything in the line of rambus and they seem to be going dual channel DDR and with even higher fsb (166 like amd actually).

Another note, the 2800+ will be based on the barton core. I'm still waiting for the [-peep-] 2400 and 2600 to go on sale before I even think further chips. All talk and no action as of yet w/ amd.<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by nja469 on 09/04/02 08:38 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
 

Victory

Distinguished
Feb 17, 2002
247
0
18,680
Quez,well as for my education...well no need to go there. Anyhow, maybe I should've stated that I wish AMD would find an even faster alternative. I'm doubtful as to how much of a boost the extra 33Mhz(x2) will give the processor. I know the doubled cache will increase the performance quite well, but can DDR @ 333 feed the CPU to escape the bottleneck in memory intensive apps. Also unless you're an engineer for AMD or have a never released board at home with an Athlon paired with RDRAM, how the hell can you be certain that with a few tweaks to the core that AMD wouldn't 'run with the wolves' when paired with RDram???
I'm also aware of what AMD has been supporting. I went to AMD back the at the K6II@300 and stayed there since. Why? Because I was sick of switching mainboards everytime Intel came out with a new wave of CPU's. In a pinch I can plug in a 'old' thunderbird into my board should I see CPU failure. Intel doesn't allow it's users such a nice feature.

And to speak of the vaporware 2400+ and up the new Barton core. Where are these Intel 1.7 Celly's I keep seeing all over the place? No where I look for prices and I don't buy OEM anymore


:cool: Save heating costs on your home, overclock your PC!!! :cool:
 

nja469

Distinguished
Jun 23, 2002
632
0
18,980
I'm a total loss with memory technology right now, but I think I know what he meant by rambus and athlons not being a likely pair. First off it's probable to conclude athlons wouldn't even benefit from rambus memory technology. Plus it seems even intel is droping rambus. As far as I've seen, only one new RIMM board is planned next year and it's by SIS, not intel.

Chipset makers are not going to spend $$$ on making a athlon/rambus chipset since it:

a.) it wouldn't offer a performance gain (i'll explain why in a sec)

b.) rambus seems on the way out with its biggest proponent (intel) is dropping it in '03

c.) it's still not that popular even with pentium 4 systems since it's expensive.

As for the lack of performance issue; Current AXP's only use the alloted bandwidth of PC2100. PC2700 is faster than the athlon even puts out, that is why the few increases in performance are very nominal.

Hope I explained myself :turns on the flame shield:
 

Victory

Distinguished
Feb 17, 2002
247
0
18,680
This isnt an issue I was looking for an arguement over. Quetz jumped all over me, because I mentioned I'd like to see a higher scale in memory bandwidth from AMD. Thanks for your explanation.

:cool: Save heating costs on your home, overclock your PC!!! :cool:
 

ksoth

Distinguished
Dec 31, 2007
3,376
0
20,780
The reason why Athlons don't need RDRAM's extra bandwith is because the CPU itself cannot use any more than 2.1 GB/sec at 266 mHz FSB. The only way to allow the Athlon to use more memory is to upgrade it's FSB. Look at the P-III when paired with RDRAM. The P-III core could use a max of 1.06 GB/sec of memory bandwith at 133 mHz FSB. Now, with the i840 chipset with dual-channel RDRAM, the P-III was givin 3.2 GB/sec of bandwith to play with, but because the core itself was limited to 1.06 GB/sec, it performed no better (actually a bit worse) than a similar P-III equipped with regular SDRAM, which was feeding the P-III with all the 1.06 GB/sec it could use. This is the reason why an Athlon going to RDRAM is pointless, and why you see relatively no performance gain with the Athlon at 266 mHz FSB paired with DDR333.

"Trying is the first step towards failure."
 

Crashman

Polypheme
Former Staff
RDRAM has shown itself to be inferior in performance to DDR <b>when both are given the same bandwidth</b>. Even the i820 chipset performed faster when paired with the ill-fated SDRAM adapter than with RDAM. It's a latency thing. The only reason RDRAM outperforms DDR on the P4 is because it's dual channel, meaning there is no single channel DDR solution that can catch up to PC1066. We already see DDR400 outperforming PC800 Dual Channel, the only DDR that can match dual channel PC800's bandwidth. And that's on a CPU that was "Designed for RDRAM". Even at 166MHz bus clock the AMD processor, using a DDR bus, would only need the bandwidth of PC2700. We have seen very strong evidence that exceeding the CPU bus bandwidth with greater Memory bus bandwidth offers no improvement. But did we need to see it in practice to understand it? NO, the water only flows as fast as the smallest pipe allows, as long as the pressure on the smallest pipe remains constant. The same is true of data streams, no matter how fast the memory is, it can only get data at the speed the CPU feeds it out, and can only give it back at the speed the CPU takes it in.

<font color=blue>You're posting in a forum with class. It may be third class, but it's still class!</font color=blue>
 

ezzlar

Distinguished
Aug 24, 2002
55
0
18,630
I´ve read the article but have one question. Will the Barton processor fit a VIA KT400 motherboard or will it be a completely new architecture?
 

FiL

Distinguished
Feb 4, 2002
588
0
19,010
Barton will fit in a KT400 board....it'll fit in any socket A board, although you might need a BIOS update.

<A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/mol_gen" target="_new"><font color=red>My Computer</font color=red></A>
 

Grub

Distinguished
Aug 30, 2002
2,814
0
20,780
I was wondering the same thing....however, being the victim of the old KT 266/266a switch-a-roo I'm going to wait awhile before I buy any MOBO for the Barton. I'm probably the only person in the world that owns this stupid chipset!!! Arghhh....
PS did via plagerize (sp?) the 266a chipset. I read an article on Tom's some time ago that hinted at this.

Just because you're not paranoid, doesn't mean they're not watching you.
 

Grub

Distinguished
Aug 30, 2002
2,814
0
20,780
I was wondering the same thing....however, being the victim of the old KT 266/266a switch-a-roo I'm going to wait awhile before I buy any MOBO for the Barton. I'm probably the only person in the world that owns this stupid chipset!!! Arghhh....
PS did via plagerize (sp?) the 266a chipset. I read an article on Tom's some time ago that hinted at this.

Just because you're not paranoid, doesn't mean they're not watching you.
 

ritesh_laud

Distinguished
Nov 16, 2001
456
1
18,780
We have seen very strong evidence that exceeding the CPU bus bandwidth with greater Memory bus bandwidth offers no improvement. But did we need to see it in practice to understand it? NO, the water only flows as fast as the smallest pipe allows, as long as the pressure on the smallest pipe remains constant. The same is true of data streams, no matter how fast the memory is, it can only get data at the speed the CPU feeds it out, and can only give it back at the speed the CPU takes it in.
Not exactly. Lost Circuits' recent analysis of the 333 FSB for the Athlon shows a substantial improvement from using DDR 333 on the original 266 FSB, depending on the app. Here's the <A HREF="http://www.lostcircuits.com/cpu/tbred_333/11.shtml" target="_new"><font color=green>summary chart on the last page.</font color=green></A>

Ritesh
 

nja469

Distinguished
Jun 23, 2002
632
0
18,980
266a from 266, at first meant in many cases manufacturers taking currrent boards and removing the northbridge chip and replacing it and then relabeling the board. Even though it sounds shady, these refitted boards with the 266a offered much better performance than the crap 266 set.

As for plagerism of the chipset, I do not follow your question.
 

nja469

Distinguished
Jun 23, 2002
632
0
18,980
The AXP Barton will also be socket A, thus it should work in most any recent socket A board. It's a good bet if the board says it "supports 2100+,2200+, and future procs" that it will have a handy bios flash available to run the 2400/2600/2700 tbreds and future barton cores.

New boards will surely come out, charging a premium and loudly proclaiming support for the Barton AXP's and the "Enhanced FSB (333)." While this will be bloody wonderful for the stupid, in all reality they will be the same boards already available; pre-flashed with the needed BIOS and relabeled and priced higher :eek:) You gotta love capitalism.
 

juin

Distinguished
May 19, 2001
3,323
0
20,780
There a lot of stuff you must push in the account to have a real idea of what is the fastest.

At the end i have speak with a horny lady
 

teecee

Distinguished
Aug 31, 2001
8
0
18,510
What about PCI bus bandwidth? Several VIA chipsets and hence Athlon systems have suffered from diminished PCI bandwidth. Does anyone have numbers on the latest VIA chipsets?

_______________________________________________________________________
TeeCee
<A HREF="http://www.digitalfreaks.net/" target="_new">Digital Freaks </A>
 

slvr_phoenix

Splendid
Dec 31, 2007
6,223
1
25,780
Okay, originally this was just going to expand on a few of Crashman's points. However, I've decided instead to just cover the memory basics in general since I'm not convinced that it is common knowledge with the very partial views being represented here.

<b>1)</b> The P4 was not 'designed' for RDRAM. The P4 was designed for high bandwidth. RDRAM just happened to be the only memory technology able to provide that bandwidth at the time it was developed. However, there is absolutely nothing preventing another memory technology from becoming better than RDRAM for a P4.

<b>2)</b> Each upgrade in memory (IE from DDR333 to DDR400, from PC800 to PC1066) offers more than <i>just</i> a bandwidth increase. It also offers a latency reduction. So while the <i>bandwidth</i> of DDR333 is wasted on an AXP with a 133MHz FSB, the <i>lower latency</i> is <b>not</b> wasted.

This is why the AXP does see minor improvements to performance <i>even when the memory bandwidth is being wasted</i>.

<b>3)</b> DDR SDRAM <i>does</i> have a lower latency than RDRAM and thus performs better at <i>equal</i> bandwidths. However, RDRAM's advantage is in it's ability to scale to higher bandwidths very easily. There is no mainstream DDR solution to match PC1066 yet, and should Intel or AMD implement an 800MHz or higher FSB soon (without decreasing the effective bandwidth per cycle anyway) DDR's continued use is a complete gamble, but RDRAM is much more likely to be able to meet those needs.

So long as the Athlon <i>isn't</i> driven by bandwidth, memory with better latency will always be better for the Athlon. (Currently DDR SDRAM is this memory.)

So long as the P4 <i>is</i> driven by bandwidth, memory with more bandwidth will always be better for the P4. (Currently RDRAM is this memory.)

And in the case where multiple memory technologies fulfill the complete bandwidth needs of a CPU, the lower latency memory will win in performance. (DDR400 vs. PC800)

<b>4)</b> Dual-Channel DDR SDRAM is pushing the wire count pretty far. It's causing considerable consternation to motherboard manufacturers because of the sheer amount of signal noise and crosstalk that they have to fight against.

RDRAM has its own crosses to bear, however insane wire counts are not one of them. RDRAM, being a <i>serial</i> technology, has a vastly lower wire count.

Serial technology is just plain easier to implement, hence Serial ATA replacing the clunky IDE cables.

And thus, the future of memory depends entirely upon how much memory bandwidth is pushed, and how well DDR can overcome signal noise and motherboard complexity problems.

If dual-channel DDR's bandwidth can be increased (such as QDR and ODR) <i>without</i> a significant increase in the number of wires and without a significant increase in the signal noise, then DDR will survive if there is another huge push for bandwidth.

If not, RDRAM will be <i>the</i> memory technology to survive another huge push for bandwidth.

Of course, should there be no more huge advances in CPU bandwidth, then DDR will eventually crush RDRAM because of it's superior lower latency.

<b>5)</b> Conclusion? There simply is none. The memory technology of now depends entirely upon your CPU since Intel and AMD have <i>very</i> different ideals of CPU bandwidth. And worse, the future has even more variables to affect the outcome of which memory is needed where. So just sit back and enjoy the ride. However, my guess is that the memory technology of the future isn't even going to be a derivative of any currently in use.

<pre><A HREF="http://www.nuklearpower.com/comic/186.htm" target="_new"><font color=red>It's all relative...</font color=red></A></pre><p>
 

slvr_phoenix

Splendid
Dec 31, 2007
6,223
1
25,780
And to speak of the vaporware 2400+ and up the new Barton core. Where are these Intel 1.7 Celly's I keep seeing all over the place? No where I look for prices and I don't buy OEM anymore
The 1.7GHz Wilties are <i>all</i> over <A HREF="http://www.pricewatch.com" target="_new">Pricewatch.com</A>. I found 29 entries to buy them, and you can buy them retail, that's for darn sure. (And just in case anyone was wondering, I also found 8 entries to buy a 2.8GHz P4.)

Meanwhile I found a whole <b>two</b> entries at <A HREF="http://www.pricewatch.com" target="_new">Pricewatch.com</A> for the AXP 2400+. And <i>both</i> are <b>pre-order</b>.

So, Victory, your incredibly lame attempt to claim that Intel's processors are vaporware (implying then that AMD now doing it is okay) doesn't have a leg to stand on. Hell, it doesn't even have a body. Intel = real product available right now. AMD = vapor and paper.

But then, anyone following AMD for the last couple of years (Need I mention the constant Hammer pushbacks in any further detail?) already knows that Intel is all action and AMD is all talk.

<pre><A HREF="http://www.nuklearpower.com/comic/186.htm" target="_new"><font color=red>It's all relative...</font color=red></A></pre><p>
 

Crashman

Polypheme
Former Staff
Dude, the only improvement you get with DDR333 compared to DDR266 on a DDR266 CPU bus is an improvement in latency when both have the same setting, because 2 cycles at 333MHz is faster than 2 cycles at 266MHz. That argument doesn't support the higher bandwidth of RDRAM, it supports the lower real time latency of SDRAM.

<font color=blue>You're posting in a forum with class. It may be third class, but it's still class!</font color=blue>
 

Crashman

Polypheme
Former Staff
Ever heard of extrapolation? PC133 outperformed PC800 on the PIII, because the CPU bus didn't need the bandwidth but did need the low latency. And DDR400 is showing itself superior on the P4 as compared to PC800, both having the same bandwidth in this case. The Athlon bus resembles the PIII bus (SDR) as much as the P4 bus (QDR), you would expect it (with a very high degree of information to back you up) that PC800 would have results somewhere between that of PC800 on the PIII and PC800 on the P4. And PC1066 wouldn't give much more, the CPU bus limiting bandwidth, all you get is slightly less latency.

<font color=blue>You're posting in a forum with class. It may be third class, but it's still class!</font color=blue>
 

Crashman

Polypheme
Former Staff
Well put. Yes, I know that the P4 is designed for high bandwidth, not specifically RDRAM. But since it was designed for the bandwidth that Inhell knew would be available with PC800, designed for RDRAM is <i>implied</i>. Most of us understand that the memory interface is on the chipset, not the CPU.

I see DDR improving with time. DDRII already has several improvements designed in to help with signal problems on the module itself. QDR will double it. Dual Channel DDR is as wide as I forsee the bus getting. But if improvements to the module can double the max frequency as it has with graphics cards, Dual channel doubles the buswidth, and QDR doubles the data rate for a given bus, well, that's 2^3, or 8x the performance. That's enough to keep us current for at least 5 years.

<font color=blue>You're posting in a forum with class. It may be third class, but it's still class!</font color=blue>